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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1463087012 Message started by beowulf on 05/12/16 at 22:03:32 |
Title: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by beowulf on 05/12/16 at 22:03:32 This is a preview of an upcoming review from Dagogo (the link is for a different Pure Audio Project review using the Tang Band W8-1808 coaxial, but the preview of the Voxativ is in the comments section towards the bottom): God’s Peace to all, Here is an update that those interested in the PureAudioProject speakers may enjoy; I hereby reveal that I am working on an article regarding the Trio 15 Voxativ. Here is a teaser of my experience to date: I have been blindsided by the beauty of the Trio 15 Voxativ. I didn’t expect this experience, and it has caused me to reconsider what top end sound is about. With the Voxativ there is a leap upward in terms of the refinement, the characteristics associated with the most beguiling systems. I could take an hour to discuss this – and I will in my review (Actually, it will take many hours to distill it to a review.) -but just as one immediately sees and if given opportunity to ride, sees and feels the difference between a sport sedan and a supercar, so also my ears hear the intensity, the focus, the brilliance of design of the Trio 15 Voxativ immediately. Frankly, this speaker is causing me to reconsider my conclusions regarding premium sound. I had summarily dismissed single driver speakers over the years as inherently incapable of achieving the experience I wanted, mostly because of their limited frequency response. I also didn’t like the boxiness associated with hulking cabinets and the coloration contributed to the sound. These caveats are both removed by the Trio 15 Voxativ, and my ear tells me I am hearing a genre of sound as legitimate as full range dynamic, big ESL, line source, and omnidirectional speakers. In a nearer field setup the Trio 15 Voxativ is second to none in refinement, something I would not have predicted. I have to toss away my preconception that single driver speakers are more convoluted, less articulate than multi-driver speakers. I’m still wrapping my head around this development; it’s forcing a paradigm shift in my audio worldview. I always knew that as I am a System Builder I would need to explore single driver speakers. I didn’t expect this one to perform at such a level that from the get-go it has to be included among the very best I have used. But, that is precisely what has happened. Blessings, Douglas Schroeder They are currently running an introductory pricing of $ 5,490.- shipped from the US. My only curiosity of them is that they are using crossover (albeit with good components from Mundorf and they are also offering as an option something called a Leonidas crossover named after the designer). But, I'm just wondering why they wouldn't run the Voxativ AC-1.6 at full range. Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of adding the premium built full range driver? Perhaps its an open baffle limitation or something? More info on the Leonidas: Leonidas unique fixed serial topology allows careful voicing of the crossover to the specific listening environment, the sonic signature of the equipment, and the personal sonic taste. All of this is done by simply swapping the relevant components to their best values and grade, one at the time, by only a screw-driver and on the same circuit board. |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by Donnie on 05/12/16 at 23:48:00 Am I right in assuming that Pure Audio Project are using modified versions of the drivers that are in my OB's? It looks like I saved around $4500 by rolling my own. |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by ProggRob on 05/13/16 at 03:25:16 Beowulf - I disagree regarding the high pass of the full range driver. Yes, it is a spectacular driver and I can understand your viewpoint, but having heard Palomino's setup, as a matter of taste, I would prefer the additional weight of the 15" drivers higher in the frequency range. Of course, I own big ass speakers and this is a preference. I don't think there's a right or wrong. Donnie - you bought Voxativ drivers and built speakers all in for $1000? I haven't followed your thread but if that's true then I don't see why anyone would bother with anything else. :-? |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by ProggRob on 05/13/16 at 03:32:10 I also saw that tidbit from Dagogo earlier today, and since I've been curious about PAP for a while, these are on my shortlist. It is only a matter of time before I unload my Hawthorne's. They have been wonderful to me but after my DAC upgrade I've realized that they can't take me where I want to go. I just told my wife about these Voxativs... groundwork is getting laid. |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by beowulf on 05/13/16 at 10:29:43 @ Donnie - I'm with Rob on this one, the OB-A15 Neo woofers are Eminence's reference drivers for open baffle speakers, likewise the Voxativ AC-1.6 are pretty much the gold standard for single full range drivers. If you can put 2 OB-A15 drivers and 1 AC-1.6 per speaker into an aluminum frame with a 3 piece modular wooden baffle for under a grand sign me up I'll take 4! ;D @ Rob - I emailed PAP about the crossover situation and here is what they told me: Me: If you could please explain something about the Trio15 Voxativ for me ... is the Voxativ driver ran full range or is the Leonidas crossover involved with it somehow? I love single driver speakers (crossover-less) and I currently own some Omega Super 7,s ~ which the main reason the Trio15 Voxativ caught my eyes was that they make some of the best full rangers on the market, with that in mind ... it seems a bit perplexing to me that there would somehow need to be a crossover ran with those drivers ... so perhaps you can tell me a little more about how that works with the Leonidas crossover. Thanks in advance for your time! PAP's response: I will add a bit on what is written on our web, re Leonidas. The Leonidas is a serial topology whereas the two drivers (two woofers in parallel) and the FR are serial but have a filter schematics that can be compared to first order on each. This specific topology allows a bit of a blend between the two drivers around the crossover point and this blend is just what was needed to soften a bit Voxativ super fast response alongside the Neo woofers. The Neo woofers play very clean mids therefor their integration with the Vox is so successful… We do not use further filters except of a light shaving of the highs (that you can eliminate or change to your preference). This also brings the Voxativ to a sweet sounding zone ! In general, 4 15” woofers move a lot of air therefor the bass not only sounds deep but also is physically feelable but without the box-air compression… Clean and playing Open Baffle bass… The mids blend a bit with the Vox, making the cross point totally seamless and allowing the Vox to perform just where it excels, the low mids and up ! All is in perfect phase as the drivers are in serial ! All in all, this topology allowed bringing the Vox driver and the woofers to a unified, warm ! and natural sonic experience… Resolution is top (like Vox provide) but the complete presentation is pleasant, warm and natural, non-fatigue for long hours of playing ! The Leonidas allows swapping the components so you can experiment both, the values and the type of components ! We can guide… Hope this helps, Look forward hearing from you, Regards, Ze'ev So that's the word from the designer ... from what I understand (my thinking) is that the 15" drivers are not fast enough to keep up with the Voxativs and that is one reason why there is a crossover, the other of course to smooth out integration. There are a few of us here on the forums that run our single driver Omega's wide open and use the crossover in our active mid-bass or subs with pretty good results. Do the rules somehow change with an open baffle or where an passive bass driver (such as the PAP 15" Eminence drivers) come into play? :-? |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by maddog07 on 05/13/16 at 18:37:32 Hey ProggRob… I’m certainly not telling you what to do, but if you already have Hawthorne Trio’s and are looking for more speed and “rez” (I was), what you need to try, is to swap out the Hawthorne coaxial driver and the crossover and replace it with a full-ranger (w/no xover on the full-ranger). I could never get the snap and rez from the Hawthorne coaxial driver, no matter what I did, that I was accustomed to hearing from the Audio Nirvana 12” cast frame Alnico driver running full-range that I have mounted in a 5.6 cu. ft. bass-reflex box. I was about to take my AN 12” Alnico driver’s out of the bass-reflex boxes and put them in the Trio baffles and give them a listen, when I came across a guy locally selling a pair of Audio Nirvana cast frame 15” ferrites. So I bought them, worth the money, with the idea I would likely upgrade to Alnico or Neodymium AN 15” drivers someday “if” I liked the 15” ferrite AN in the Trio baffles in place of the Hawthorne coaxial driver. Let me just say that I don’t think I could be happier with the 15” AN full-ranger in the Trio baffles. This will sound like hyperbole, but in 35+ years of chasing the holy grail of audio, I have never had sound this good in my room. By “good”, for me, I mean sounds “real” – “live”, as in “they are here” or “I am there” good. And as best as sonic memory can serve, I have never heard another pair of speakers that I honestly thought was better (overall – all aspects considered) than the sound I have now – price no object – bar none. I am coming to learn, at least I haven’t heard a case yet, where putting passive parts, i.e. crossovers, in series between your amp and drivers, that does not retract from resolution, speed, dynamics, etc. One of my friends, who is a true music lover, but not really an audiophile, refers to my crossoverless speakers as “snappier” than any speakers he’s ever heard. I have a vintage pair of Klipsch at 101db efficiency and a pair of Martin Logan Vista's. My xoverless Trio's with the AN drivers have more rez and speed than either of these - I kid you not. I couldn't believe my ears the first time I heard them side-by-side. Save yourself a lot of time, money and frustration, and replace the Hawthorne coaxial and xover with a 15” full-ranger from Audio Nirvana and run it without a xover. And if this doesn’t do it for you, then take out that second mortgage for Voxativ’s or Teresonic’s, etc. In fact… I might be able to help you out in this regard to try this –relatively inexpensively. I’ve been itching to try a pair of Audio Nirvana’s newest Classic series drivers. David Dicks (the guy behind Audio Nirvana and CommonSenseAudio) claims the new Classic series 15” Alnico driver is the best sounding driver he now offers. He’s located in west St. Louis, MO area. I have been to his place in the past and saw the operation and seen/heard several AN based speakers. He’s a bit of a curmudgeon and holds very strong opinions about audio and especially his speakers, but he mostly “speaketh the truth” if you can ignore the arrogance – I have had good experiences dealing with him. Anyway, I currently have three pairs of Audio Nirvana drivers. I have the 12” cast frame Alnico’s in the bass-reflex box. And I have the 15” cast frame ferrites in my Trio baffles. And I bought a pair of cast frame 12” ferrites from RandyInCaintuck on this forum, thinking I would do “something” with them some day. If you know Randy, he can offer you some insight to AN drivers as well as having more experience with a multitude of open-baffle drivers than any single person I know of. I can share with you how (verbiage and pictures) I have adapted the 15” AN drivers to my Trio baffles. And I could sell you one of my pairs of Audio Nirvana drivers, worth the $$, for you to try before you go down the rabbit hole - if you’re so inclined. The 12” cast frame ferrites are just sitting in their boxes doing nothing at the moment – I would sell these. I don’t think I’m ready to part with the 12” Alnico’s I have in a bass-reflex box – these drivers in this box have a “special” sound. I might be inclined to part with the 15” cast frame ferrites that are now in my Trio baffles and replace them with some new 15” Classic Alnico’s, which is what I’ve always kind of had in my head to do from the outset since putting Audio Nirvana’s in my Trio’s. PM me if you’d like to discuss further. |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by ProggRob on 05/15/16 at 04:18:14 Maddog, wow! I've been meaning to reply to this all day but things have been busy. I am interested but my situation is a bit tricky right now. I hope to type out a full reply tomorrow morning. Thanks for your post! Quick question though, you had the Silver Iris or the Sterling? I have the Sterlings. Rob |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by maddog07 on 05/17/16 at 18:12:54 replied to your PM |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by Palomino on 05/17/16 at 19:42:19 Rob, When I came home from your house on Sunday and listened to my rig again, I really understood you "meat" comment. I upped the cross-over point on the Crown and it was better. I am still playing with it though. I did listen to those tracks with the mega bass on my system and even with the crown cranked a little and the higher xover point, it was nowhere near the 4 augies. That was special. I think we will have to listen at my house at the next meeting. |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by ProggRob on 05/18/16 at 01:58:24 Thanks Pal. That bass was cool was it not? The interesting thing is that I really don't have the Augies crossed that high; around 65hz with a 24 dB/octave roll off. I think the main difference between our two systems is the number of Augies (obviously) and the size of my midrange driver which throws in a bit more midrange support. Even with 2 watts behind it, it can do some pretty cool tricks. I have some asymmetrical "wings" temporarily installed on the outside edge of each speaker, and when Pal queued up one of his special bass tracks one of the wings actually came loose and fell into the wall. That was moving some serious air! |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by beowulf on 05/18/16 at 06:35:28 @ ProggRob - I would love to see a pic of those if you have one available. With all this open baffle talk between you, Pal, maddog and DBC ... I really have the itch to try and make (or buy) something. One of the cool things about the PAP stuff is that once you get the aluminum frame and baffle pieces you can swap and continually upgrade/try new drivers as time and budget allows. High End Munich: ![]() |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by maddog07 on 05/18/16 at 21:04:28 It is also relatively easy to swap different drivers in an OB designed like the Hawthorne Trio's.... which use a "mounting plate" to attach the driver to, and then the driver/mounting plate is then attached to the baffle. So you only need to make mounting plates for various different drivers. For example, I have mounting plates for the Hawthorne 15" coaxial driver, and for Audio Nirvana 15 and 12 inch drivers. If you leave the drivers attached to their respective mounting plates, you can literally swap drivers in less than 5 minutes - four attaching screws on each mounting plate, one for each baffle - which of course, being OB, are easily accessible. |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by ProggRob on 05/19/16 at 02:02:40 @beowulf - sure I think I can snap a few pics for you. I'll have to figure out how to embed. Rob |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by SonicSeeker on 05/22/16 at 02:00:53 Well thanks to this post I have some TRIO 15TB NEO speakers being shipped Monday. I did not go for the voxativ up front, if I like the sound of these I may change the driver in the future but I figure this would give me an idea of what they are and the tang band W8-1808 is a well regarded driver on it's own. I will let you all know what I think. |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by ProggRob on 05/22/16 at 02:07:40 OBs are taking over! Hope you enjoy them!!! |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by SonicSeeker on 05/29/16 at 15:48:11 So everything arrived Thursday and Friday and speakers were up and going Friday evening. First impressions, Wow, so clear, clean, tight,very realistic sound. Very open and deep soundstage, huge sweet spot, not really sure where it is. Very easy to listen to. Instruments sound so real and so smooth and detailed. Everything is in it's own space with plenty of room between every instrument and voice. I finally here what my Decware amp can do. Excited to see (hear) what they will do once broken in. Can't even imagine what the Voxativ set-up sounds like. |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by ProggRob on 05/31/16 at 03:51:59 Very cool SonicSeeker! Apologies if I've missed it or should otherwise know, which Decware amp is driving them and what did the PAPs replace? |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by beowulf on 06/01/16 at 08:20:47 SonicSeeker wrote on 05/29/16 at 15:48:11:
Wow, great to hear. I love the concept of their whole design and the baffle system is a great idea and looks to be really well built with the aluminum frames and all. I also like the idea of being able to swap out the full range drivers when budget allows. I was going to try to get up to THE Show in Newport, but it looks as if I'm not gong to make it as I thought. I Would love to see some pics if you get the chance! 8-) |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by nwh5 on 08/18/17 at 06:10:20 HELLO maddog07, I noticed that you installed the 15” AN full-ranger in the Trio baffles withOUT any crossover and you are v happy with the result. This really PIQUED my interest. May I humbly ask some questions>> 1> Are these "15” AN full-rangers" available from the commonsenseaudio webpage (they ask US$1099 per pair) ?? 2> Without a xo means you connect the 3 drivers TWO woofers of the Eminence woofers (grantfidelity selling them US$700/4pcs) and ONE 15” AN full-ranger directly with your PowerAmp?? How did you connect to drivers (parallel/series ??) 3> I am thinking about driving a PAIR OF THE ABOVE Trio15 with ONE pc of Anaview AMS-1000 ClassD amp. Amp details can be found at anaview dot com products page. Do you think this will be OK? amps underpower? 4> Can you PM me the drawing of Trio15 baffle with 15” AN full-rangers, please?? Thanks very much in advance for your kind reply, BRgds, |
Title: Re: Pure Audio Project Trio15 Voxativ Post by Kingrex on 11/16/18 at 18:51:14 I have the Pure Audio Project 15s with horn and 10s with Voxativ. They need the crossover. If you want to make one yourself it will probably be a 2 way and not have the same response as the Series topology of the Pure Audio crossover. The bummer of the Series is there are few and far between calculators that are going to figure the crossing points of the Inductor and Cap. That means purchasing off brand drivers may be difficult to blend. I don't know that life with these speakers is so much about bouncing around with the drivers. It is more the CAPS, inductors and resistors. As well as cables to lace the drivers to the crossover. Changing the crossover and cable components does a lot to improve the clarity and overall performance of these speakers. I have been very happy with these. Actually, the 10s with Voxativ are very nice. The 15s get all the press, but if you want to very smooth but exciting, clean and balanced sound, the 10s really shine. They aren't near the scale of the 15s. They require more power. You want 40 or more watts. A zen Triode wont do it. I use 135 watt Altec Lansing amps. The 15s on the other hand will work well with more like 6 to 8 watts. 2 to 3 might be a little soft. Not sure, never tried. Just been told 8 watt or more sound great on the 15s. 135 watts on the 15th really bring the juice to the party. Absolutely effortless. |
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