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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> CDApS DAC-off https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1536586137 Message started by Palomino on 09/10/18 at 14:28:57 |
Title: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/10/18 at 14:28:57 Yesterday, we had a somewhat impromptu CDApS meeting. It came together last minute when we realized that this was the only day that would work for the full membership prior to the fest. So, at 1:30 PM El Presidente called to order the September meeting. Secretary Palomino took the roll and set forth the primary meeting objective: determining the differences between three DACs: The TEAC 503, the Schitt Gunnir multi-bit and the PS Audio Direct Stream. System and Listening Room All three DACs were evaluated using a chain that consisted of modified Mac MiniDACZibitDecware Rachael (6n5Ps, 247B, 807s) using my DIY XLRs and Decware Silver ICs and my DIY Power Cord. Power is a dedicated line into a PS Audio P5. Speakers were my DIY open baffles consisting of Augies powered by dual crown amps and W8-1808s mids and Dayton Audio AMT Pro 4 tweeters powered by the Rachael. 15” Dayton Audio reference sub is powered by a separate plate amp. Source was Audirvana 3.X playing primarily Tidal (some MQA) but also ripped CDs and some FLACs from Raven’s voluminous library. TEAC First up was the TEAC. I felt that my system was achieving pretty good synergy thanks to some mods on my Rachael (thanks Will) and the crossover on the AMT/Tang band (thanks Randy). You don’t really know till you get some other ears to hear it. Both Raven and Bad Wolf felt that the system was delivering a smooth and musical presentation. Raven has been particularly critical in the past several meetings due to harshness in the high but felt that had been mitigated. Bad Wolf knows the Tang Band well given he has them in Open Baffles at home and felt the same. I believe he tames the issue with equalization. I believe the summary comment was detail without harshness which led to better engagement. Not a lot of negatives on the TEAC until Raven listened to the acid test song – Helplessly Hoping by CSN. Here Raven and BW felt that the plucking sounds of the guitar were thick and un-natural leading to some overlap with the voices. Schitt Gunnir Multi-Bit Next was the Gunby. Not huge differences from the TEAC which was somewhat surprising. We all agreed the Gunby did a better job with the reverb and some micro details which made it more engaging. Cymbals were more natural sounding. I think I was alone in thinking that the bass was tighter and a little more musical. It handled the acid test song more competently as there was clearer separation of the voices and guitar. I did not miss the conversion to DSD I use with the TEAC. Direct Stream Finally, the Direct Stream. I don’t recall the firmware release, but I think it was Red Rock? Anyway, I think it is the most recent. I had heard this DAC in my room twice before. The last time it sounded bad due to technical issues that Raven was not able to fix during the Meeting, but the time before that it stood out as the best DAC I have heard to date, and that was several firmware releases ago. I heard details and it had a lifelike quality to the music that were noteworthy. It could have been how we laddered the DACs going from least expensive to most expensive, but we did not hear details that clearly placed this DAC head and shoulders above the others. Yes, it was musical, and it was the most analogue sounding but in the detail department which had clearly stood out to me last time, it was not there. It did well with the reverberations and cymbals as the Gunby had and it was engaging. Our overall conclusion in this “highly scientific” test was that there was not that much that separated these three DACs – at least in my listening room and my equipment. I found that I could live with my $650 open box TEAC and I could be just as happy if not more so with the Gunby. The DS did offer some nuance that I would very much enjoy but it is out of my price range. Special Guest Star Then we looked to the large Pelican Case sitting in the staging area just outside my listening room. Yes, there inside this huge plastic box was the vaunted OTL. For those of you who may not know the backstory, this is an amp that Steve built for himself. OTL stands for “output transformer less.” Somebody else here can explain the tubes/technology. All I know is that a couple of Decfests ago, Steve broke this amp out and stunned the room. I distinctly recall looking at Bad Wolf as we shared the listening couch and saying “woah.” This is not an everyday amp as it takes time to warm up and cool down. It runs extremely hot and has multiple fans to keep it from meltdown. I think that it was not practical for Steve to move into production given these factors plus difficulty in finding matched power tubes. Anyway, Steve put it up for sale and Bad Wolf bought it. He was nice enough to bring it to our meeting so we could hear it. He requested that Raven bring the El Caminos he and I built as Bad Wolf also has a pair of these and knows they work well with the OTL. After setting up the El Caminos and a 20 minute warm up period we began listening. A few cliché phrases come to mind: drop the mic, walk off grand slam, holy sh*t. This amp does not offer a listening experience, it’s a destination unto itself. Totally immersive. I found myself not wanting to get out of the chair muttering to myself “get up….…get up…don’t be a dick…give someone else a turn.” Raven eased into the listening chair and seem to achieve some deep state of zen, hovering above sleep but yet not fully aware of his surroundings. I have never had an amp take me there so quickly and I could tell Raven was definitely in the same zip code. And that’s the best way I can explain what I heard. I wouldn’t use words like detail, or great mids, super treble, etc. This amp simply takes you there. There are nights and certain songs where I can achieve this state. But conditions need to be right and even then, it can take a while. This amp takes you there very very quickly and doesn’t let go. As the OTL cooled down, we BS’d a bit and reflected on a very successful CDApS meeting. While the DAC comparo did not turn out quite like we expected, it was a great exercise. I was happy that my room/system sounded good and that I was able to hear the other two DACs that I have been curious about. The other guys can offer some observations to add to what I’ve reported here. Raven passed out some party favors in the form of internet cable isolation devices for Bad Wolf and I to try. He’ll have to tell you what they are. Also, given his situation of re-doing the flooring in his listening area, he left the DS, the El Caminos and his modified pre-25th prototype Zen amp. I’ll be spending some more time with each of these and will hopefully be able to offer some observations later. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lon on 09/10/18 at 20:13:08 Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Enjoy your time with the DSD and the tweaked Zen. Both should sound better after a few days of use. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/10/18 at 20:56:29 That was a wild card in the test Lon. All Dacs were shut off prior to the listening sessions (mine by mistake when cleaning!). So one DAC could 'warm up' faster or perform better than another when cold. I don't have a feel for the TEAC, but I have had other DACs which sounded much better when they had been on for some time prior to listening (like a day or more). I never turn mine off (on purpose). Aaron felt that the Gunby would have sounded better if it had not been cold. We did have it plugged in in the "bullpen," but I think the timing or something goes out the window when you unplug it, even for a short time. My last good listening on the DS from a past session, it was cold as well. I think it was just that much better than my old DAC. I tried to listen to the little Zen after dinner last night. I was spoiled by the OTL. I will try again tonight. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/10/18 at 20:59:19 P.S. the El Caminos really sounded excellent. I know Bob didn't do many production versions of this speaker, but it filled the room powered only by the little Zen. I really like the tweeter that he used. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lon on 09/10/18 at 21:15:46 My experience is just like yours: almost any digital component when unplugged needs 24 to 48 hours to be all it can be again. And yeah. . . listening to my 25th Anniversary Monoblocks used to make everything else sound "off" but now I've adjusted my expectations and know that if it's not one of the 25th Anniversary products it just won't sound "that way". . . and I can settle into that other sound more easily. I've also found that adding the 25th anniversary CSP3 preamp to an amp adds a lot of of the magic. I'm listening to the CSP-25 driving the Taboo Mk IV right now and boy does it sound good! |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/10/18 at 22:39:09 Thank you Palomino for hosting a very enjoyable CDApS. You’ve made wonderful improvements to your room and system. It was an excellent setup for comparing the DACs. I’ve been waiting years to hear the Direct Stream. Between its price and its accolades I was somewhat expecting it to provide an OTL like experience, being instantly and unquestionably above the DACs we were comparing it to. This was probably more than I should have been expecting. While it did sound very good, probably overall better than the other DACs, I’m not sure if I’d prefer it over the multibit. I certainly would like to hear it more, especially in my own space to get a better grasp on just what it has to offer. My biggest disappointment with it had to do with its touchscreen which proved somewhat difficult to operate, requiring so much pressure that one would have to hold the DAC with one hand just to keep it from sliding away when pushing on the touchscreen. Now that we all have phones with touchscreens that respond so quickly and easy, anything less really stands out, and unfortunately there are a lot of products like that, once one is into the $6,000 price range though there is no excuse for it. The TEAC, which I’ve heard many times, did not disappoint. I’m not much of a fan of upsampling (something the TEAC was doing and the DS always does) but I wasn’t noticing the negative qualities I have in the past from it. I do like that the TEAC has the option to either have upsampling on or not. If the multibits did not exist I’d almost certainly be using a TEAC. I was happy the Gungnir multibit did so well in comparison to both. Obviously there are qualities I really like about it, and those were noticed by the other members. I was reminded of how much I appreciate its simplicity. It has a button on the front, pushing the button changes the source, and aside from the power switch, that’s it. No settings or menus etc. For me this is a big selling point and one of the reasons I chose to buy it instead of the TEAC. My only complaint of that setup is Schiit uses white lights for all the sources. I have fixed this on all of mine by putting tiny pieces of different colors of tape on the lights making it easy to see which is selected. Not very elegant, but also not very noticeable unless you look closely. Someday I may actually go to the trouble of replacing the lights, but its not a priority right now. There was the issue of running all the DACs aside from the TEAC cold. Though I did my best to keep the Gungnir warm, I think even just being unplugged for a minute really sets it back. I expect that some of its perceived weaknesses would have been lessened if it had been on for a few hours. This could have very well effected the DS as well, as it was run totally cold. There is a reaction people have to hearing the OTL. Every time Steve would bring it out at Decfest everyone would seem to have it, I still have it, the other members had it yesterday. I can only imagine how proud Steve must have been to see hundreds of people over the years have that reaction to it. After we got home from the session we were compelled to fire the OTL back up and then proceeded to listen to it until we had to force ourselves to turn it off and go to sleep. There are various reasons it’s not a good everyday amp, possibly the biggest one is that when it’s playing there is no doing anything else, it commands your attention and won’t let you go. Even if you can get away for a song or two it won’t be long until you find yourself right back in front of it, in a kind of sublime altered state where hours will pass in what seems like seconds. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/10/18 at 23:10:23 Palomino I agree about the El Caminos’ tweeter. I’m pretty sure that’s my favorite tweeter. I think where the El Caminos really shine is that everything sounds good on them, some stuff will of course sound better on other speakers, but nothing sounds bad on them. They would be an excellent choice for someone that was only going to have one pair of speakers and liked a variety of music. They also work great with a 4 watt Mini Torii as well as higher watt amps like the ZMA, they would even do fine in a home theater setup. When I first heard them at Decfest I knew I would be buying a pair, little did I know that it would be that pair as they’d never be put into production. Funny enough I thought that about the OTL too, at the time Steve was considering putting something like that into production, and despite the price there was no question in my mind I’d be buying one, again not expecting it to be that one. I can fully understand why Steve isn’t doing the OTLs, but I have never understood not making the El Caminos available. They're just such an excellent all around speaker. They always seemed to be the most popular speaker at the Decfests they were available for. I do really hope Steve does the 6C33C mono blocks though. As it takes a large supply of those tubes to find ones that match well enough to use in the OTL. It’d be great be able to use the ones that aren’t behaving in something. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lon on 09/11/18 at 04:14:10 It's interesting that Eric's DSD has such a difficult to engage touchscreen. They may vary as mine does not have to pressed so hard that the unit moves, nor my DMP screen. I generally use the remote for all functions with each anyway. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/11/18 at 04:37:21 It didn’t help that how the DS was situated, just perched on top of the TEAC, if it were sitting on a proper surface it might not have moved when pushed. However it really did seem to take an excessive amount of force. Such touchscreens have become kind of a pet peeve of mine, I have an otherwise nice light meter with one. It probably wouldn’t be a dealbreaker for me as it seems that most users don’t actually interact with the touchscreen much. It didn’t bother me as much on the P5, so it’s probably not a huge deal and could be down to some variation or just not being used to it. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/11/18 at 14:22:44 Well, I got a little more time with the Direct Stream last night. I swapped back in my speakers since I know how they sound and they are also what we used for the test. The DS had been on so I don’t think I encountered any cold DAC issues. It was engaging, fluid with detail. Pretty much what I heard on Sunday. But then I put the TEAC back in. Ouch. Pretty harsh in comparison. Could it have been that we laddered the DACs and each one was progressively better so the TEAC to DS seemed closer than it was? Well, about 30 minutes later the TEAC smoothed out and the gap closed considerably. I finally wised up and dug out another good power cord and now have both DACs powered up. This morning I got up and listened again and I think our conclusions from the CDApS meeting are still valid. The DS is more fluid and analogue and does better at the transients but its not a huge margin. If you said choose one, hell yes, I’d choose the DS. But I also feel for what I am able to spend right now that the TEAC is no slacker and well worth the $650 I spent on it. So if you are on a budget and want balanced output, lots of upsampling options (or not) and a great remote, its well worth it. I don’t have the network version of this DAC so I can’t speak to that. I also trust this guy “Steve” who posts here occasionally and he saw something in this DAC ;) I also think that anyone who strictly goes by measurements and disregards the Schitt DACs (especially the multi-bit) are missing out on some reasonably priced DACs that sound very good. The other observation of the night/morning is that the modifications I have done to the Rachael have helped to close the gap between it and Eric’s Zen. How much, I can’t specify yet, and will have to do some more listening. All I can say is that when I switched from Rachael to Zen and back, I didn't find myself saying "oh, there it is" when I put in the Zen. Another thing I always noticed was the pickup in speed with the Zen. Eric felt that I had made a pickup here on the Rachael and I now think I agree with him. I am just a duffer so I hope that Steve explores the 25th mods for the Rachael people out there. I am hoping that the OTL listening impression is now burned into my brain so that I can compare it to the 25th Anniversary Zen. If it takes me there even nearly as fast, I may be in need of selling some equipment. I also tried Eric’s more expensive XLRs and could instantly tell a difference. I don’t think these are anything high end, but a decent set of Morrows. They looked to have the same connectors so the difference is probably in the wire. My DIY are Mogami. One overlooked aspect of all this is the Zibit. I think it’s a no brainer. I will never go back to an unbalanced approach again. It adds the density and umph you need/want with the Rachael/Zen. I have not yet tried it with the Torii. It also helped us balance levels for the DAC test. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by MrDerrick on 09/11/18 at 14:26:17 Swapping DACs in and out has always been problematic at best for me. I own a DS and find that after a power cycle it needs 48 hours of warm up before it starts to sound good, 72 hours to fully shine. I find this true with all digital gear, until the temperatures stabilize for all of the internals, they just do not sound their best. Powering down for storms during summer months leaves me with precious little premium listening time. Winter is coming! |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/11/18 at 16:42:38 I'll leave them both cooking for a few days and then give them another listen. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by MrDerrick on 09/11/18 at 17:32:04 Darko Audio just did a DAC-Go-Round with the Denafrips Terminator. There is a link to the You Tube Video on the Darko site. It would take me months to compare 4 DACs. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/11/18 at 18:09:25 +1 on Darko. I'll have to check it out. I have always enjoyed his reviews. I only have a week or so to evaluate two ;) |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/11/18 at 19:40:15 I remembered to take a few pictures this time. Here’s one with the DS setup. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/11/18 at 19:44:45 I double checked the stability of the DS this morning. Its solid but sure doesn't look like it from that picture. Did you get a picture of the OTL in position? |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/11/18 at 19:52:06 I agree with Darko about needing lots of time to compare. It’s taken me years to notice some of the differences between my amps. If I had extra money I’d probably buy a TEAC just to compare and experiment with upsampling. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/11/18 at 19:54:47 I didn’t unfortunately. By that time I had forgotten that taking pictures of the event was something I wanted to do. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/11/18 at 19:56:24 The speakers we used with the OTL. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/11/18 at 19:58:23 An excellent sounding and looking sub that Palomino made. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by ZYGI on 09/12/18 at 17:42:29 Aaron, If you would post a picture of your ElCaminos. They do look better than the raw MDF. I still have a pair that are dark red metallic and and silver tops/bottoms I'd sell. I also believe I have enough pre cut parts for another pair or two at least. Main reason they are not on the website is.... Steve isn't really enthusiastic of MTM's in any way shape or form. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/12/18 at 17:46:48 I don't know Bob, maybe that raw MDF, dog pee'd on look might be just what someone wants in their living room ;D finished or not they are Raven's go to speaker now. They really did sound good on Sunday. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/12/18 at 19:51:40 Here are a couple quick shots of my El Caminnos. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/12/18 at 19:54:29 I've always liked the look of them. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by BadWolf on 09/12/18 at 20:09:11 Despite the look of Raven’s they did sound excellent. They were even less finished than I realized. As soon as the OTL was playing through them I doubt if their appearance was on anyone’s mind. I do hope he gets around to finishing them though, such a great speaker should look the part. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Steve Deckert on 09/13/18 at 02:24:26 With regards to DACs if you are using a stock TEAC going directly into the amplifier and it's fairing that well, I guess I did pick a good one! Using the ZBIT with one is not negotiable if you want to hear it sound "right". The transformers make a night and day difference. If you want it to sound like mine, you need a ZTPRE as well. On the ZTPRE you'll need one pair of transformer-coupled RCA inputs to get the unbalanced signal from the ZBIT back to a balanced signal the ZTPRE can use. Then from the ZTPRE you run balanced cables to the amplifier location and terminate them into another ZBIT. That's the magic sound. Removing even one of the three transformers in this signal path is a deal breaker for me, so when I call this my current reference, please don't confuse that with a bone-stock TEAC. -Steve : ) |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/13/18 at 12:20:39 We were using stock TEAC into zbit. No ZTPRE (yet :)). Both DACs have been on since Monday. My opinion of the differences between the two two DACs based on last nights session remains the same. One thing I did notice was that I could get the TEAC to play smoother and more comparable to the analougue sound of the DS by varying the upsampling. No upsampling may be the smoothest while dsd upsampling has the most detail (but also the most digital sound). I’ll continue to listen and test until El presidente asks for his stuff back. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Jeff of Arabica on 09/13/18 at 16:02:04 Pal, Did you run the DirectStream into the ZBIT when comparing, or just the TEAC? |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/13/18 at 16:52:29 Zbit used on all three DACs for the comparo. It helped us get comparable levels. I found it interesting that we really didn't need to turn the dial much to get close. I am going to listen again tonight while changing the upsampling on the TEAC. It was surprising to me that DSD had as much digital sound to it. BTW, one of my newest reference albums is the Notting Hillbillies. Well produced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Notting_Hillbillies |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 09/13/18 at 21:46:34 Sorry so late to chime in, I've been busy shoveling a couple tons of topsoil by hand, pulling carpeting, floor repairs, and starting to lay out flooring. Busy, busy. Anyways, it was a great meet! Palomino's room sounded probably the best it's been in ages (yes, as he said, I wasn't happy with the sound for a long while now), and the TEAC along with this custom/modded Open Baffle speakers was a fantastic mix. Tom really has his system dialed in, and I was very happy with it! Then the Multibit. Sitting out of the sweet spot I immediately heard a great improvement in micro-detail, especially in cymbals and spatial cues, and reverberation. But then when I sat down in the sweet spot and played some tracks I'm familiar with, I just didn't like it. It had too much...I don't know, "hash", midrange and down. As the others mentioned, I attribute this to not being "warmed up" and settled in. Then we brought the DS in, and I was just so Meh about it. I was the most disappointed in how the DS sounded, from end to end. Of the three, I thought the Teac sounded best, but I do crave the micro detail and spatial cues that the Multibit was producing - I just kept saying, "this doesn't sound like my DAC". I'm glad I left it with Tom to play with while my house is torn up so he can really get a proper feel for it. The not very responsive touch screen was frustrating, but then I've not needed to touch it in probably a year or more, it just stays on the BRIDGE II input. But it didn't feel right, and I know that was an issue with some screens. The remote for the DS pisses me off how cheap it is, so I've not even look at it in 3 years. As for the OTL - yeah, it knocked me out. Granted, I'm sure the copious doses of benadryl and 10% ABV Stout Palomino fed me could be blamed for that...but no, the amp just engages you and drops you into that Zen state. I was "turned to stone" as Steve puts it, which he's done to me before, 20 years ago with the original Zen amp in his heavily treated room. You get so into the music, your mind starts to wander around in it and your body shuts down into this relaxed, almost hypnotic state. I was "listening", but I was pretty much asleep. I could hear people coming and going, I could hear the songs roll one after another, but I was otherwise checked out. I even caught myself snoring and in my head I'm like ERIC! Shush, I'm listening!! And I'd shift in the seat, then just drop right back into the music. That amp, in that room, with the El Camino speakers was truly something. So very engaging - like that special listening session you have after midnight, gear warmed up, when the planets are in alignment and everything falls into place. Except, this amp does it just about every damn time! Now that I think about it, I don't even remember what DAC we were using. It kinda didn't matter. I'm so very glad that amp is local, and with a friend; it's truly special, and world class special at that. Thanks for another great session guys - I look forward to seeing you all at Decfest. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 09/13/18 at 21:51:41 P.S. Stop picking on the nekked, dog peed on El Caminos P.P.S. Bob, maybe I need to buy some panels off you and rebuild these and finish them properly. Maybe paint them a fine El Camino metallic blue or something. :) Oooh, or can you veneer them so I can stain them a beautiful blue like my Zu Audio?!? We need to talk! |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/13/18 at 21:59:06 Pretty sure we were listening to the TEAC for the OTL session. Not sure why we chose it. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lon on 09/13/18 at 23:17:05 Eric, look into the remote for the PS Audio DirectStream Memory player. It will control the DSD and it looks and feels so much better. I bet PS Audio would sell you one for 15 dollars, I have gotten several remotes from them at that price. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 09/14/18 at 19:28:39 Great tip, Lon! Thanks! |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by ZYGI on 09/14/18 at 19:39:50 Aaron, Thanks for posting the pictures. A much better look. Dog peed on El Caminos, say what? Eric, I do have a red and ssilver metallic pair that could be at Decfest this year. CHris K has them and I'm sure he would tote them along with him. I haven't seen them in three years, but I bet they are perfect! Just a jab.... Zygi |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/14/18 at 19:54:09 Eric lets animals pee on all speakers where he is a co-owner with another person. Then the co-owner will not want them. It's brilliant actually. I think a set of El Caminos would be a fun fest add. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 09/14/18 at 19:58:15 Bob, I'm not sure I can afford a complete speaker and/or built cabinet. I'm happy to do the labor to save money. We'll chat about it! I'm definitely interested - but Tom is right, I am pretty brilliant. ;) |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/14/18 at 20:01:12 Oh geez. I'll never live that down. I would appreciate a new cabinet on our speakers. Any color except Blue. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lon on 09/14/18 at 20:17:23 Lonely Raven wrote on 09/14/18 at 19:28:39:
Looks like this. Aluminum top, black plastic bottom. ![]() |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 09/14/18 at 20:56:39 Quote:
Harumph - that's it, I'm buying you out on these - you can get your own! Lon, that's great to see! It looks like they listened to our gripes about a $6000 DAC coming with a remote that suits a $99 VCR. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lon on 09/14/18 at 20:59:24 I have gotten used to the other remote. I like it because it controls the functions I most use of the DMP, the DSD and the P10. But the newer DMP remote has a heftier feel and looks nice. It controls the DSD but not the P10. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/20/18 at 20:43:27 A few follow-up comments based on my listening to my modified Rachael vs Eric's pre-25th Zen. I had mentioned that I thought I closed the gap between the two amps with my mods. Do I still think that? Yeah, the Rachael is more engaging and picked up some speed. Is the Zen still better? Yeah. By a bigger margin than I initially thought. 20% if I had to put some kind of number to it. The Zen is still faster and better on the front edge of the notes which draws you in. More micro details as the notes trail off as well. Just a super little amp and if the 25th raises the bar further then everybody should buy one ;) The only area where I thought the Rachael was better was in the overall body. It sounded fuller. But then I decided to put a 6n5P in and it was just as full if not fuller. So I think I got my money's worth out of the mods, that's for sure, but the little Zen is just plain better. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Steve Deckert on 09/21/18 at 02:11:40 Quote:
This brings up a complaint about digital when it's combined with a computer. My TEAC (NT-503 vs. UD-503) behaves the exact opposite. I can't even listen to it without some type of upsampling. The settings on my computer range from 44.1 x 16 up to 705.6 x 32. I find that it sounds best at 352.8 x 32 and it doesn't matter if the upsampling is on or off on the TEAC. There is a big difference in sound with it on or off, but either way 352.8 x 32 is imperative. Using a transport through the coax I find having the upsampling ON is generally the best sound on this unit and to my ears. I guess the complaint is in the complexity and inconsistent results, in a medium that could be as simple as ON or OFF had someone with better long-term vision set the standards. Steve |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 09/29/18 at 01:21:07 I agree, most everything sounds smoother when it's upconverted to 2x DSD or higher. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 09/29/18 at 18:28:40 Whats weird about this experiment is I was/am a DSD fan. Had a hard time listening without it. I used to upsample from the Mac mini and I find it better now to leave the signal pure. Now I only upsample in the DAC. As I have listened the last few weeks the Direct Stream has shown its quality. Still impressed with the TEAC for the money. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 10/04/18 at 17:09:24 Hopefully you'll let me have my gear back soon? LOL One thing to keep in mind about upsampling, is there are different algorithms and filters to get you there...so depending on the math used, and I believe depending on the source bit/sampling rate, you could get different outcomes. For example. You start with a file that's 16 bit 44.1khz, a smart upconversion would limit you to 88.2khz because the math is simple...whereas upconverting to 96khz you can get "rounding errors" then it's up to the software to figure out where those samples should be. At least that's how I understand it. So different algorithms guessing out those odd numbers can sound different depending on the source file. I believe that's part of why PS Audio used DSD, and if I recall Ted said the DirectSteam is converted to 2x DSD, the math for the volume is done at 10x DSD so there are no dropped bits - the math is just easier with fewer rounding errors. And each version of the OS sounds different because of the algorithm changes. I might not be 100% right on details, but that's the concept as I understand it. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 10/04/18 at 17:14:57 I am weaning myself off your gear. I actually have an issue with my P5 so I haven't been listening lately. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 10/04/18 at 22:26:50 I've only been using my P10 on a $500 home theater amp and cable box...so I'm really high-end over here. :P I may have to re-run my 8AWG Zen Styx type wire through conduit for my power outlets, because the gear all needs to be moved about 7' to the left. (sigh) |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 10/23/18 at 02:01:32 Since this thread seems to have gotten a little bit of a traction, I thought I'd post a feeler here: We don't have any CDApS meetings planned anytime soon, but for those willing to make the drive out to 60440 Zip Code (or thereabouts since Palomino is only 15 minutes away from me), feel free to private message me here in the forums and I'll put together a contact list. Then when Palomino, Bad Wolf and I decide to do another listening session one of us will E-mail the list so people are aware. Keep in mind, this "club" is really just three guys that enjoy Decware and good music, we are super laid back, and this is all for fun. I mean, seriously I was somehow voted president (when we only had two members! LOL) and most of our meetings are rather impromptu. That said, we can get serious when it comes to sharing info, music, and especially acoustics. I'll post another thread asking for volunteers...er, I mean subjects...no, no...friends! Yes, that's the word...I'll post a thread announcing when we'll have another actual planned meet and be inviting friends over for a listen. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Jeff of Arabica on 10/23/18 at 02:40:28 If you all came up with a secret handshake, I might be motivated to commute from California! |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 10/23/18 at 05:28:38 Quote:
We had one, and it was the greatest in the world, but we forgot it...so this is a tribute. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Dominick on 10/23/18 at 06:20:12 How hard would it be to reproduce a livestream video/audio feed like Steve does for Decfest. For the past 5 years, I would tune in to Decfest and enjoy the music all weekend. If your meeting it could be done via livestream with minimal effort, maybe you would attract a few of the forum members to listen in. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 10/24/18 at 05:25:18 I can't imagine listening to me ramble about diffusers ad nauseam, the subtle tweaks and resulting A/B that Palomino does, nor Bad Wolf's incessant talking would be fun for anyone to listen to and watch on a live stream! LOL Seriously though, it's a neat idea but I'm not sure what we do would translate well to a streaming format. A huge part of what makes Palomino's setup so amazing is his highly treated dedicated little room in his basement...which just can't come across till you hear it in person; having the room disappear and the spatial cues in the music take it's place is pretty amazing! And quite a bit of what we do is picking out the minutia of differences a tweak, a cable, diffuser move, or hell even the difference in the chair and headrest can make in your engagement in the music. I'm afraid so much of that would be lost not being in the room with the music. Still, I'll talk it over with the guys and daydream on it a bit. It might be fun to do just for the challenge of making it work and possibly doing it well! Maybe even have something interactive like a FB Live Stream with chat feature so anyone "visiting virtually" can ask a name of a song or offer suggestions when we talk through an idea or concept....hmmm... Well, I know what I'm going to offer to do for 2019 Decfest now. :) |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 10/24/18 at 12:07:24 I was thinking that some sort of electronic interaction at the fest would be beneficial. The last couple of years I have only been able to go for less than 24 hours so I still tune in at home. Even if you could just ask the amp/speaker combo it would be good. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 10/24/18 at 13:27:04 So you want to go for it at our next CDApS meet, Tom? I don't have a video camera of any sort, but I know the one that's kind of an industry standard for streamers and podcasts, and I think it's under $80. If we can figure out how to connect my H2 Stereo recorder, we could have stereo sound from somewhere near the sweetspot. Then maybe have the 2nd person in the toboggan man a laptop to answer questions and monitor the stream. |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Palomino on 10/24/18 at 13:32:01 I think the only thing you'd see in my room is the back of my bald head :) |
Title: Re: CDApS DAC-off Post by Lonely Raven on 10/24/18 at 20:13:33 I was thinking about the next meet being at my place, with the new floors and all. |
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