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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> Replacement Tubes >> 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1594323422 Message started by Radarek on 07/09/20 at 20:37:01 |
Title: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Radarek on 07/09/20 at 20:37:01 Hello Just waiting for a pair of Telefunken EL83 tubes. Got those from Tubeworldexpress. They advertise them as 6p15p replacement... did someone tried them before? Would the Hazen mod work with those? I have 6p15 and Tesla 6922 installed now and is great sounding already... Thanks |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by piezoman on 07/09/20 at 21:12:42 I could be mistaken, but I was never able to confirm the EL83 is an equivalent to the 6P15P. I don't know why these ebay vendors keep perpetuating this. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Radarek on 07/09/20 at 21:24:44 https://tubeworldexpress.com/products/copy-of-el83-cv2726-siemens-east-germany-nos-1-pair-matched-on-amplitrex?_pos=3&_sid=ec813b822&_ss=r Here is the link... |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Lon on 07/09/20 at 21:25:36 All that I can infer from reading and from testimony is that the EL83 is NOT the same as these tubes and does not work in these amps. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Radarek on 07/09/20 at 21:29:10 Quote from the store website: 1 pair) EL83 Telefunken Diamond Bottom NOS 1965 1 tube) 36.8ma Gm=10,400 B3205201 1 tube) 37.0ma Gm=10,700 B8105501 - matched on Amplitrex 6CK6=EL83 Pentode (sub for Russian 6P15P-EV) - Decware EL83 amp 1999 - modified VOX AC30 Afraid to try now... :( |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tubecan on 07/09/20 at 21:34:01 They don’t work in se84UFO amps,,hehe,had a light show with 2 VR tubes,shut power off and pulled plug,vr’s were hot for an hour. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Radarek on 07/09/20 at 21:46:57 Eh... 50 bucks gone... ;) |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tubecan on 07/09/20 at 22:00:55 Haha I got 8 of them..figured I’d leave a pair for someone,being nice.. Canadian$. Eh,that’s like 1000’s |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 07/09/20 at 22:03:14 Interesting. This is the first time I've seen anyone say an EL83 is not equivalent to a 6P15P. Pretty much the rest of the world thinks they are equivalent. Just as 6P14 is equivalent to EL84. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 07/09/20 at 22:31:14 Ah. Well, when in doubt read the datasheets. Yes, a 6P15P is wired differently than a EL83, although electrically they are similar. It is wired like an EL84/6P14P. So in theory one could buy the EL83 - EL84 adapter on ebay and make EL83s work in a UFO. I just did that because I ordered some NOS Tesla EL803S's in anticipation of my UFOs. And EL83s are rated a 9 watts instead of 12 for 6P15/EL84s so if they work they probably aren't going to last as long. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by piezoman on 07/09/20 at 22:32:59 CAJames, that "world" is confined to several ebay vendors who did zero research and who are lazy and copied from each other. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Rivieraranch on 07/09/20 at 22:36:26 I tried testing some 6P15P-EV with the EL83 data and it did not work well. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tubecan on 07/09/20 at 23:00:17 Installed the 2 EL83’,flipped power switch,,nothing for longer than usual,antennas went up,noticed the back voltage regulators start up and went nuclear meltdown red,off button sndpulled the ac..amp actually sounded better from that day on...hmmm a proper breakin.lol. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 07/10/20 at 19:33:37 I should get my EL83s and EL83 -> EL84 adapters long before I get my amps. I can confirm or deny they work on a tube tester and if so I'll try them once my amps arrive. A little googling indicates that at least some guitar amps are usable with EL83s sub'd for EL84s with no change except rewiring the socket for the different pinout. Of course big difference between a guitar amp and a single ended triode amp. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by oztayls on 07/11/20 at 10:05:19 My Decware user manual says they are the same thing. SV83 is just the American designation for 6p15p |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Rivieraranch on 07/11/20 at 12:44:07 I don't know of any reason why anybody would ponder over the EL83 when the Soviet tubes are much cheaper and very plentiful. The Zen amps are designed for them in the first place. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Lon on 07/11/20 at 13:46:24 Yes, SV83 is the same thing as 6P15P, but EL83 is not. I think the "83" nomenclature has led to the confusion. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tubecan on 01/02/23 at 03:55:13 Purchased a pair of converters for Telefunken EL83’s about a 2 months ago and they are great sounding tubes,smoother, better imaging,the midrange is without a doubt better than 6p15’s,actually these can take on 300B in the midrange. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 01/02/23 at 09:04:09 Yes. I’m a big fan of the EL83, but have since moved on to the EL822 (also needs adapters) which I like even better. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tony on 01/02/23 at 15:40:53 CAJames, I found the tube you referenced, EL822, on eBay from several UK sellers. I also found 6CH6 at Surplus Sales Neb. Are these two tubes equivalents, in your opinion? Also, what adapter would be required? Thanks, and Happy New Year, or should I say HNY :) |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 01/02/23 at 16:37:19 Hey Tony, HNY 2U2. So there are two different tubes, the EL822 and EL821 that are essentially the same except the 822 is "full sized" i.e. same size as a 6P15P/EL84 and the EL821 is a little shorter. The 6CH6 is the US designation for the EL821. I started with 821 because it was cheaper, liked it a lot so I got 822s and like them even better (but the difference is small). Also, because they are bigger I feel like they are likely to be more reliable/longer lasting. Either way on ebay you can search for "6CH6 EL84 adapter" for what you need. If you pursue this I'm very interested in your experience. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tony on 01/02/23 at 19:28:01 I have been shopping around, not finding a good source for a matched pair of the 822s. I sent out some inquiries, so maybe I will hear something tomorrow. In the meantime, do you have a seller you could recommend? Thanks. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 01/02/23 at 19:35:38 I wouldn't worry about finding "matched" EL822s, all the ones I have test very close. They are really high quality tubes. I recommend these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/261205129474 |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Dominick on 01/03/23 at 14:28:56 CAJames, Just ordered the converter bases for my UFO. Besides eBay….any other sites that you have experience with in regarding these tubes? Also with eBay tubes you linked to in your earlier post and have tested…can you hear a difference in the channel balance between the tubes? I know having a matched pair is ideal…but if they are so close that its barely noticeable….I’m ok with that. I’ve had my UFO long enough to know the sound signature with the stock tubes….so now I want to start rolling them. Dom |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 01/03/23 at 17:27:19 Hey Dom, Quote:
The ebay link is the ebay store for Langrex: https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/el822cv2382-mullard-valve-tube-new/ If you're only comfortable buying "matched" pairs you can get "matched" EL821s here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/280473488039 or here: https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/el821-cv2127-6ch6-mullard-matched-pair-nos/ That might be a good way to dip your toe in the pool. You can buy from the webstore if you want, but ebay is cheaper on shipping. Some other options are Mullard Magic: https://mullard.org/search?type=product&q=el822 And Billington (my favorite place to buy tubes): http://www.tube-and-valve-electronics.co.uk/aboutus.asp but buying from them is a bit of a production. Quote:
Unfortunately for you "tube matching" is a bit of a hobby horse for me so you're going to get my rant on that, later. The short answer no, I don't hear any channel difference. But of course I have 2 amps in kind of a funky room so I have 4 power tubes and two input tubes and I'm pretty sure whatever tube differences there are tend to average out and I need to tweak the speaker placement anyway to get the best imaging. Speaker tweaking is an underrated solution to any balance problem in general IMO. A little longer answer is I've had tubes for a long time and my experience is tubes need to be pretty bad before you can actually hear a difference in channel balance. My advice is if you want to try different power tubes for your UFO I wouldn't hesitate to buy a pair of tubes for Langrex and see what you think. I've tried lots of different 6P15P tubes , a few EL84/6P14P types. Several different EL83 tubes (with my custom made adapters that maintain the Hazen grid mod), and EL822/821s. Of all of these I think the EL822/821 sound the most different, in a good way, from the Decware stock tubes, but to be fair, I'm in the minority that anything sounds better than the Decware stock tubes, except for the Cryotone tubes and those are too much for my Scottish Heritage. Just be sure to give them plenty of time to burn in, at least 30 hours. Most of mine sounded pretty rough out of the box. Now comes my rant about tube "matching" which you are free to ignore ![]() I feel like most of what people call tube matching on the internet is a bit of scam, because most tube testers are designed to tell if tubes are bad, not if they are matched (or good). The engineers at Hickok, HP et. al. needed to pick one operating point from the whole phase space of possible currents and voltages to test at to determine if the tube needs to be replaced. That is a nearly impossible problem though by and large they have done a remarkable job solving it. Is that operating point anywhere near the operating point in your amp? Who knows, but probably not. And what does vendor XYZ think "matched" actually means, 5%? 10%, 20%? again who knows. I've had a tube tester for a long time, and tested a lot of tubes, and at first I would totally geek out over "matching" but the more tubes I tested the less I found any real correlation between test results and audio performance. I still test tubes, to be sure they don't have shorts and to confirm I'm getting what I paid for, and I still note the Gm value, because why not, but to me consistent Gm values between tubes is more a sign of manufacturing quality then quantitative matching, although well made tubes will all preform the same. And this whole discussion assumes your tube tester is properly calibrated, which is a whole other issue. Now, some places, like Decware, have much more sophisticated tube testers that can test tubes over a variety of operating points and can actually match tubes. But that is the exception, and by a wide margin. My feeling is tube matching is important for push pull amps, but of course Decware amps have meters and adjustment pots so you can match mismatched tubes within reason. Single ended amps are a lot more forgiving. I don't stress out over tube matching, but if that is important to you buy your tubes from Steve cuz his matched tubes are really matched. This ends my rant, I'm very interested in what you think if/when you get some of these tubes. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Geno on 01/03/23 at 20:00:50 Hi CA, and Happy New Year! Thanks for posting this info. I plan to try the 822's out. Can you recommend a seller for the 6CH6 to EL84 adapter? Thanks! Geno |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 01/03/23 at 21:23:09 Thanks Geno, and Happy New Year to you! AFAIK there is only one ebay seller, tubemalls, that makes the adapter. And they claim they only have 4 left so maybe you should hurry! Good luck, and let me know what you think. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Dominick on 01/03/23 at 23:55:11 CAJames….thanks for the info. Earlier this morning I ordered the tube adapters as well as a pair of the non matched Mullard tubes based on your recommendation from the seller you listed. I’ll report back once I get them in house and roll them….along with the GZ rectifier I bought from you a while back. In terms of buying matched pairs…..yes that’s a whole another rant for sure. Push pull amps should have matched pairs by design. I’ve read so many eBay sellers talk about how they match their tubes with their tester and it’s the best one out ther and their whole process. For someone like me who does not have a tube tester nor understands the intricacies of the process…. it does become a bit confusing at times. While I’m learning….it can be difficult at times to sift through the jargon. Obviously buying from Decware will assure you that the tubes you are getting have been thoroughly tested and has been put through the ringer. Thanks, Dom |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tooppy on 01/04/23 at 20:45:34 Cjames : is the adapter for UFO is the same for both 822 & 821 ? |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 01/04/23 at 21:04:58 Quote:
Yes. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 02/12/23 at 16:38:23 I know shipping from Europe has been a bit of a mess lately but I'm curious if any of you have received your EL822 tubes yet and what you think of them? |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Lon on 02/12/23 at 17:16:06 I did. You know the old saying "If you don't have anything good to say. . . ." I'm not saying anything. ;) No, they're alright, but don't replace the stock Russian tubes for me. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tony on 02/12/23 at 18:30:55 I did, too. I will get back to you with overall impressions later, as I got sidetracked over the past few weeks with my Torii MKIV and CSP 2+. The EL822s are playing right now, as a matter of fact, in the SE84UFO - sounding very good. I wanted to compare them to my 6p15p cryo and non-cryo tubes. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Dominick on 02/13/23 at 05:23:25 I finally got my EL822 tubes in from a long wait due to shipping issues and temporary suspension the the Royal Mail service. My initial impression was that they sounded a bit bright in my system with a lot of air…maybe even too much air, but soundstage was wider than before with the stock tubes right out of the box. By the second day the brightness and my thoughts of excessive air went away, and they sounded very crisp and clean. With Jazz music the piano’s and sax sounded very good, and the soundstage remained wider than my stock setup. I have yet to listen to female vocals and other genres of music, but as of now I really do like the sound. I am using a Raytheon 5z3 rectifier, and the stock Decware input tube. I’d like to give these tubes more time to settle in, and the the real test is to then wait a few weeks and go back to the stock tube set to give a better analysis of comparison. Thanks James for the recommendation… it was worth it!! Dom |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tony on 02/19/23 at 21:38:21 Some of us discussed the EL822 power tube a couple of weeks ago. Since my Torii amp was back at Decware for a change of oil and lube, I had more time with my SE84UFO amp. An excellent time to compare some power tubes I had accumulated. I set out to listen to OTK 6P15P EB (the original ones from Decware), CryoTone 6P15P, EL822, and CryoTone EL84. I quickly found that too ambitious for one evening, so I spaced it out over four evenings, comparing only two contenders simultaneously. First, all four pairs of power tubes sound great. I would feel satisfied with any of them if I had to make just one choice. That said, I did settle on favorites. Each evening I would mix the contenders and spend about 20 minutes with each listening to the same reference tracks. From that, the 6P15Ps fell into one camp, and the others fell into another. The 6P15Ps tubes (Decware originals and CryoTone) were very similar. I really could not tell much difference between the two. In my system, both pairs excelled with female vocals and bass. On one track, I found the CryoTones lacked the density of the OTKs, but overall very similar. I preferred the other two power tubes: EL822 and CryoTone EL84. I was initially surprised by the brightness of the EL822 compared to the more laid-back EL84, but it grew on me. They might sound less forward with more hours to settle in. If you factor in price, these have to be the best buy. However, my final choice based only on sound quality was the CryoTone EL84. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Lon on 02/19/23 at 21:43:52 Really interesting because I just can't keep any of the EL84 or EL83 or EL822 or EL821 in, I go back to the 6P15P. (The EL84 I have been listening to are an Amperex pair--I didn't try any Cryotone as my luck with them as not been as fortunate as almost everyone else and I'm not going to risk their big expense again). With the EL type in I just immediately miss the "Hazen Grid Mod" sound and honestly I can't do without that. But all our systems, rooms and tastes are different. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Mannytheseacow on 02/20/23 at 00:26:46 Interesting, Tony. I’ll have to give the el83 and el84 from cryotone a try. When I put some of my NOS tubes in after a cryotone tube I don’t notice too big of a difference but when I put cryos in after NOS I’m always blown away. Lon is right though, our systems, preferences, hearing, and music selection has a lot to do with this. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by CAJames on 02/20/23 at 00:57:28 My experience with the EL82[2|1] is that they sounded pretty bad out of the box and took a long time to break in. At least 10 hours and more like 20 to 30. I don't necessarily recommend this, but I'd leave the amps on with no music playing over night and that reduced the amount of actual listening time I needed to work through before the tubes started sounding good. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Lon on 02/20/23 at 03:28:51 In my case I put about 100 hours or more on both those types . . . and it was not an improvement that mattered. I can't do without the Hazen Grid Mod now. Too many years listening to it and into the music in that special way with it. |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tony on 02/20/23 at 04:27:39 Lon, As our unofficial historian, can you say more about the Hazen Grid MOD? After a search that went back to 2010 or so, I found the first reference, but I still don't know what it is. I searched Steve's papers, and unless I missed it, not there either. If there's a description, perhaps you can send me the link. Thanks, Tony |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by spyder1 on 02/20/23 at 04:54:10 Tony, I believe this is Steve's paper about the Hazen Grid Modification. https://www.decware.com/newsite/paper145.htm |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Tony on 02/20/23 at 05:40:31 Spyder1, thanks for the link. Tony |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Dominick on 02/20/23 at 06:34:25 Tony…give the 822’s more time. I noticed that they settled in nicely after like 30 or 40 hours. The brightness you are hearing will go away. I’ve been doing a lot of playing the past few days, so could be close to 60 hours now, and I do like them a lot. Still need to do some serious listening of female vocals… I’ll probably spend some time tomorrow or the day after. The first female up will be Claire Teal’s “California Dreaming “ from Orsino’s Songs on Qobuz. The opening is just phenomenal. Then I’ll do Melody Gardot’s “Worrisome Heart” ..great smokey jazz blues night club type song (Qobuz). Like others have said…each person’s system and setup is going to be different. Cables, wires, interconnects, etc. etc. will play a part in this… but I’m sure you know this. Keep us posted once your tubes settle in. Dom |
Title: Re: 6p15p = Sv83 = EL 83 Post by Lon on 02/20/23 at 10:42:56 Tony wrote on 02/20/23 at 04:27:39:
I have posted a link to that article previously to your query. That paper is the best explanation. I don't know how to describe it other than there's a level of detail and openness with the mod that is not there without it, and once I got used to it with the Zen amps I just don't want to be without it. |
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