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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1643244988 Message started by PipHelix on 01/27/22 at 00:56:28 |
Title: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by PipHelix on 01/27/22 at 00:56:28 I’ve owned my Torii Mk IV for about a year now. I bought it on the 2nd hand market when it was about 9 months old. From the jump, there was always a slight hum when the amp was hooked up to my 96dB Omega XRS floor standers. Hooked up to my less efficient Klipsch RP 600Ms, I don’t hear the hum at all. I’ve listened to various amp hum sound files online and this is around 60Hz. I used to think it was a peculiarity of tube amps (I’m new to them) but I’ve learned it’s not supposed to happen. I’m not sure if the hum is louder lately or not, but I’m tired of it, especially during quiet passages of music and during late night quiet listening sessions. Some info: —I can hear the transformers on the amp humming when I get up close to it. —In pitch, it’s the same hum as I hear in the speakers. However, it’s louder through the speakers than at the amp —It hums when disconnected from all sources and when it’s the only device powered out of the outlet. —The hum doesn’t get louder or quieter with the volume knob. It’s at a constant pitch and volume. —I don’t have tons of spare tubes but it hums with EL34s and KT66s as well as with two different sets of rectifier tubes. What should I do? Live with it? Go solid state? Other? |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum Post by JP on 01/27/22 at 03:58:32 Looking forward to an answer because I have the exact same issue with the Tori jr mk2 |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum Post by Lin on 01/27/22 at 17:10:19 Have you checked for DC on your AC line? |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum Post by PipHelix on 01/27/22 at 17:22:36 I haven’t checked my AC line for DC. Forgive my ignorance, but can this be done with a common multimeter? I have some facility with automotive electrics but not high voltage household stuff. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum Post by Lin on 01/27/22 at 18:43:07 Yes, set the meter to DC and check with the probes. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum Post by PipHelix on 01/28/22 at 00:27:31 Okay, so there’s 1mV of DC in one channel and none in the other. Seems like DC offset isn’t the problem. This is a real bummer because in reading the Torii Mk IV description again, there’s great emphasis put on how tube rectification cleans up the power and makes the amp silent. I get that ad copy is always hyperbolic, but damn, mine is far from silent. Is there anything else I can look at or into? |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 01/28/22 at 04:08:17 Thanks for putting this issue up for discussion. I have searched the forums but have not found a solution for my new Torii MKIV's hum. I heard a hum from the amp the first time I set it up, straight from Decware, a couple of months ago. I assume that a slight buzz from the amp is usual when I place my ear inches above the tubes. What I am addressing is the hum I hear from my speakers. I can hear no hum from CSP +2 pre-amp when testing with headphones in the same room, same area, with no amp connected. Hum heard when speakers attached to the amp, and no other components connected to the amp. I have installed a dedicated line from the fuse box to a hospital-grade electrical outlet to a power conditioner in my room. When testing for hum, all other components are disconnected. I am using all Decware I/C's, all Decware Power Cables, and I have Decware ZSTYX speaker cables on order. It occurred to me to test for hum with amp and speakers in a different house room. I'll lose the dedicated line, but it will change some variables. Are there tubes to roll that might decrease or eliminate hum? Should I accept the hum since it is not heard or perceived by my ears during music listening? I seem to be moving in that direction. Still, there should be a solution. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by PipHelix on 01/28/22 at 11:53:02 Hi Tony, I, too, have a hum with only the amp plugged in and on, no sources connected, no interconnects, no nothing. I googled “decware amplifier transformer hum” and found that we’re far from the first with this issue. Though DC offset seems to be the issue for many, it’s not for me and clearly not for you given your electrical set up. I also found this, from Steve in 2003 that suggests removing the input tubes and turning on the amp to see if it’s a tube issue. Problem is, he’s talking about a 2W amp with only one input tube so I don’t know if the instructions apply to ours as well https://www.decware.com/paper41.htm I don’t mind the transformer hum in and of itself as I can’t hear it from my listening position. What I mind is that the hum is picked up by the speakers and that it can intrude on certain quiet musical passages and take me out of the moment. When I use less efficient speakers, I don’t hear the hum. But if the “magic combo” is a low watt amp and high efficiency speakers I’m a little lost. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Rivieraranch on 01/28/22 at 15:27:38 Had a MKIV and there is some mechanical hum around the transformers. There is a fix for that on the forums somewhere |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by will on 01/29/22 at 00:22:18 I have had noticeable hum with my Toriis and even sent the MKIII back to get it checked out. This was after switching tubes channel to channel without identifying bad tubes; after being really careful that all cables were arranged well and crossing one another when close; after hearing transformer hum with the amp all by itself, nothing else plugged in, and from several different circuits in the house... and probably more.... Steve said the amp was fine at Decware, and as I recall he said amps always leave Decware without hum (except maybe with your ear really close to the transformers), and that most times when they come back for hum issues, he finds it is usually not the amp.... But this is with Decware's power and buildings right? And many of us have had hum, the usual being associated with ground issues, loops and ground quality; or noise from rheostats or home appliances; hum leaking from other components... cables, wifi, not necessarily consistent DC offset.... Or it could be a noisy input, rectifier or power tube... I have heard of someone finding that moving the audio circuit to the other buss of their circuit box solved it for them, maybe having less noisy things on that side... just too many things that can contribute making it mysterious and hard to solve. I am guessing that this is in part that Decware, being a very simple and resolving circuit design for transparency's sake, may reveal power related hum issues more easily than more heavily "filtered" amps??? For main power filters I have used an Audio Brickwall, a Pi Uberbuss, a PS Audio P5, a balanced transformer, some plugin filter/conditioners, some passive filters, and though they all tend to help hum, here they still leave some hum. And it was/is better and worse pretty randomly here without main appliances running in this house. So though we have a transformer dedicated to our place, it seems being part of a neighborhood circuit, we might be getting variable noise from neighbor's appliance uses, that noise making it onto the main line. Labyrinth. For me it is not a big issue these days, transformer hum sometimes more audible than others, but not really noticeable except right near the amps, and at times just barely there with my ear right at the speakers with the amp turned up fully. Seems it was in part that I live in the desert, and my ground rod works a lot better if I "water it" occasionally during drier spells. Magnets carefully positioned by sound on the transformers helped some. Lightly damping the transformers with little strips of EAR material helped. Weight on top of the transformers helps some. But perhaps more, these also improved smooth clarity and space, so good experiments in the bigger picture. Bigger improvements came for me from modifying the amps with careful cap bypassing throughout and other modifications making it all run smoother and quieter. Also, crossing the AC on the IEC with caps really helped here, but that is an area that is hard to get clear on from my research anyway. So though I had good results, I can't recommend it with safety confidence. It seems it is not an unusual method using special highly spike tolerant "safety caps" for appliances as best as I could tell. But the cap across the AC shows its musical traits similarly as they do about anywhere else in these simple circuits, some sounding notably better than others. So I wanted to use good film caps and risked it using non-polarized caps with high voltage ratings and/or some reference to AC use as well as DC. But I did this knowing I was using a surge protector before the amps, so thinking this would help protect the caps from powerful surges. At this point I have a modified Chinese made balanced transformer before the modified PS Audio P5 that feeds my amps. The balanced transformer came with film caps across both receptacle's AC, and I upgraded those caps by sound, so I have that AC filtering before the P5 and amps which helps all that follows. Finally though, the best fix for me was a combination of many things... some of which are looked at in a few threads I found tonight: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1459789812 https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1386519222 May take a while to get through them, but with any luck, they may fill out the story some with experience and ideas. Good Luck! |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 01/29/22 at 17:36:48 Will, thank you for sharing some of your "hum-history." It does help me understand that hum-management may be an ongoing challenge for some. It's not an indication of the amp's deficits but a vulnerability due to its sensitivities and other desirable qualities. What's encouraging is that strategies exist to help tame the beast. Before reading your current post, I had found and read your discussion with Dan G., so your information was timely. For those following this tread, I found a good read as starting place for hum investigation. In all places to look, it's in the updated SE84UFO 2.1 Operation Manual. The topic of "GROUND LOOPS, POWER STRIPS, HUM" is covered. As an amateur "hum-sleuth," it is worth reading before tackling Will's links above - the discussions with Dan. Also, I found a new technology that might help with hum-management - two products from iFi. I used an iFi product recently, a power source replacement for a media converter on the clean side of my setup. It was effective and another bump in the right direction. So I was curious about these two products they offer: "The DC Blocker and GND Defender…designed to tackle different problems that can both result in an audible hum." They are not cheap, going for around $100 or so. In my situation, I would not need a DC Blocker to manage DC; I'm OK there. I might try the GND Defender to further help with hum management. It could be worthwhile. My hesitation is that it is more electronics to add to the system. Has anyone tried the iFi GND Defender or something similar? Here is the link to a full description: https://www.whathifi.com/news/ifis-silentpower-range-aims-to-banish-mains-related-noise-in-your-audioav-system |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by will on 01/30/22 at 02:10:56 Hey Tony. I can't say for sure that your amp does not have problems... But based on the info I have found and experiences... the amps having left Decware without having hummed there, and some users describing theirs as "dead quiet," and others having hum to various degrees implies potential for individual power/ground causes. And the amp circuits being simple and built for musical transparency, I was hypothesizing that Decware may be more sensitive to some power related hum issues than more heavily filtered amps. But if this is true, I don't think it necessarily rules out potential for technical issues in a given Decware amp... and thus the trouble shooting labyrinth. These iFi things look interesting and if they work transparently, you may find they do more than "reduce" hum. If there is notable hum I guess that illustrates noise running through the amp, and it would seem that would negatively effect the electrons and progression of parts with vibration and noise. So presumably, aside from the hum itself still being there "under" the music, seems it must be messing with the signal even if we can't hear it with music playing. So clearing it up transparently may increase your musical potential... less noise, a more clear/resolving signal that could potentially improve the whole musical experience beyond relief from hum. My hum has not been bad, and as I have gradually improved my power, system components, cables, etc, it is even more negligible (to me), subtle to none sometimes, though still there in a pretty noninvasive way at other times. But as I began solving it, I have been very careful to only to use tools that do not sacrifice anything else in the sound, choosing tools or cables or parts that can actually make the rest of the sound better. All the things I have kept in to help hum have helped the whole or the musical presentation. And using the same criteria when doing modifications and system/room tuning, I only use parts or filters or whatever that improve the sound without sacrifice, and most things I have done to help the sound have also helped noise. Alternately, I find many things can do one thing well, and compromise other musical qualities along the way, so I get your concerns over adding things and how these things sound. For me, something might seem good on first impressions for solving "something," but then it might take more listening, and more recordings, to realize I may have tricked myself.... Even if some part, or cable, or component sounds pretty flawless and complete at first, it might be that it shifts the balances of detail and space, or the spectral balance enough that the system works great with some recordings and not so well as before with others. So often with generally positive improvements, I might need a few days with some serious listening using known test tracks to see if a potential upgrade may have also brought some downgrade. The easiest signal evaluation tool for me is focusing on the very fine detail, inner detail, and space... decays, textures.... harmonic info from bass to the very highs. The most fragile and subtle information in my experience, once they are damaged, they are to various degrees truncated, so listening for these is for me a pretty simple way to hear if there are general signal issues too... if the finest stuff is good, chances are the rest is pretty right. I figure truncation of these subtler sound qualities comes from smearing, or noise, or parts masking the finest detail as it mixes with space. And if it shows in the subtle/fine areas, it is likely throughout. And for me, issues with these subtler, airier sound qualities are easier to discern than fuller/denser information. Using this listening tool, I can tell if I am solving smearing and improving harmonic complexity, or damaging it as I work to solve spectral balances or whatever. And with more harmonic complexity and space, the music gets realer and realer... richer and more dynamic, more empty space for sounds to rise out of with more subtlety and sweetness... that is as long as all else is in balance. Anyway, for me, perhaps especially with "filtering" devices... like these new iFi pieces, I am cautious. So I always look to get them from a place where they can be returned, and listen very carefully for sacrifices if there are any even if they solve some things. I mean, component IEC inlets I have tried all sound different, some notably better than others on their own or in a given component... also resistors and caps and wires, though there are "family" resemblances, all sound different... Even the direction of a quality audiophile fuse is most times pretty noticeable. And these are pretty simple things! Then consider how different power conditioners sound different...and power cords, all different. So these iFi things may "have a sound" for better or worse, or both. But if your research leads you to think they might help, and if they work without any down sides and support improved musical experiences from now on, seems to me that in the context of our systems overall costs, a few hundred dollars seems a marginal expense in the big picture to me. Some thoughts anyway. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Chester on 01/30/22 at 02:32:43 FWIW, my Torii Jr. started to experience a louder hum than usual, but only intermittently. I stumbled across the Emotiva CMX -2 (https://emotiva.com/collections/accessories/products/cmx-2) and it has done an amazing job at eliminating the hum from the amplifier. I bought a second one for my subwoofer that also started to hum loudly and it silenced that as well. Now as long as I’m not putting a Bandaid over a serious electrical issue, I’m very happy with the result. :) Best of luck. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 02/02/22 at 15:36:55 Here is another POV on hum by Steve Guttenberg Audiophiliac that was stress-reducing for me. His bottom line is that if one does not hear or is distracted by it during listening, its presence alone is not necessarily an indication of a bigger problem. It does not necessarily need to be a problem searching for a solution. He also describes times when it was a big deal for him. It is not black or white. FWIW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ3IZ5HtpYo |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by jec3504 on 02/04/22 at 23:29:53 Hi PipHelix, Don't know if this will improve your situation, but thought I would share mine with you. It was your post that caught my attention. My two solid state amps had a BAD transformer hum that I couldn't hear through my RP600M's. Recently purchased some Lii F15s. Was expecting to hear the hum since they are more sensitive. This is what has changed since the F15s have been connected. 1. The speakers are farther away from the amps and cables are run under the amp stand out into the room. 2. The RP600Ms are not connected to the amps 3 Been running the amps for eight hours during the day Since Jan 28 to break in the new speakers. After 3 days when shutting them down noticed something. Usually put the amps on standby so I don't hear the loud transformer pop through the speakers when shutting them off. Didn't hear that pop or notice the hum. Owned the Amps for less than a year. The Hum started after about a month and seemed to get louder with time. Next day I didn't hear any hum while they were running at all. Even hooked the RP600Ms back up and ran them for hours to see if the speakers had something to do with it. While next to the amps with my ear close to them noticed #4 4. WAudio AC Power Purifier with Surge Protector that everything is plugged into has two LED lights. one green for phase, the other is white for power. The white power led is out. Don't know when it stopped lighting up The only thing plugged into that circuit is the WAudio box. Did replaced the outlets with hospital grade replacements. That's why I went with the WAudio surge protector it has 6 hospital grade outlets and an IEC connector to use my own power cord. Needed something to plug all this gear into. My apologies if this is no help to you. New to this hobby Maybe some fine gentlemen on forum can help sort your problem. Funny how your post got me thinking about mine. Just lived with it thinking mainly too many things plugged into it. IE ground loop or that the amps just had a loud hum. Your post got me curious if the hum was going to be audible with the F15's . Some how they are now quite. Good luck. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by jec3504 on 02/06/22 at 19:46:31 PipHelix, Remembered another situation with hum. I'll give you the short version. Hooked up a new dac/headphone amp to my computer. Noticed Digital artifacts coming though the headphones. Only hum was though the powered speakers connected to the dac/amp. Long story short used Deoxit D5 on the end of the wall wart connector. Only because when I twisted the connector it stop in another position. Haven't had a problem since. Once again my apologies if this is no help to your situation. Just trying to help. Good luck, JEC |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by PipHelix on 12/22/22 at 01:54:58 OP here….. After fussing around with tubes, cables, cords, speakers, DACs, preamps, phono preamps, and etc over many months, I decided to ask my friend to bring his preamp/amp setup over to my house. It was a Schiit Freya tube preamp and their Vidar solid state amp. It sounded amazing. And there was NO HUM whatsoever coloring my music listening during quiet moments. I know it’s sacrilege to come to the temple and say that the deity isn’t all that great after all, but I sold my Torii MkIV a few months ago and haven’t regretted it even a little bit. Well maybe in the looks department because the Torii MkIV is gorgeous. Now I’ve got hum free listening and I was able to put the extra $$ from the sale toward a nice Rega P6 turntable. I’m once again loving the music. Which is what it’s all about after all isn’t it? |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Ghostship on 12/22/22 at 02:35:39 Really? My Schiit Freya+ hums a little in Tube mode and a lot in Differential Buffer mode. It is quiet in Passive mode, however. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by JOMAN on 12/22/22 at 03:14:46 I ended up chasing a loud hum which turned out was coming from my CSP3-A before and after I had it CryoToned. Sent it in and there were some repairs that were made but none changed the hum once I got it back. Then as I was adjusting the gain structure on the left calibration stepped attenuator a heard a pop and the hum vanished and has not returned. In order to hear any hum at all I have to position my ear a couple of inches from the speakers and there is no hum whatsoever coming through the headphones... dead quiet. During the time that I was troubleshooting, momentarily, the transformer in my Plixir Elite BDC started to buzz, not very loud at all, and could only be heard when in very close proximity, then the buzzing disappeared. I did extensive research into this and concluded that the power can be contaminated and that can cause a lot of what is being discussed. I also have a dedicated line with heavy gauge coper wire terminated with hospital grade outlets. I also concluded that the more transparent a component is the more susceptible it may be to the effects of contaminated power. My experience with filters and cables designed to eliminate the effects of RFI and EMI in the internet stream taught me that if you want the best results this has to be addressed. So after some reading one filter is reported as being capable of addressing transformer hum resulting from contaminated power and eliminating it, entirely. I'm taking delivery of a Puritan PSM 156 next week. I do not have any transformer hum but I figure this should be good insurance. I'm not saying that it's the solution for everyone, I haven't got my Puritan PSM 156 yet. What I am saying is, don't assume that it's a problem with the component until you've done all you can to make sure that your getting clean power. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by PipHelix on 12/22/22 at 03:19:10 If I put my ear practically against the speaker, I can hear a hum with the Schiit equipment. From the listening position, I don’t hear anything. With the Torii, I was distracted during quieter music passages in all genres because the hum during music was so loud. Schiit probably has looser QC than Decware so there’s probably a lot more variability among products. I can see how someone might have an issue where someone else might not. In any case, my point isn’t to advocate for one product over another. Rather, it’s to say that after much expense, hair pulling, frustration and trying to believe that the “purity” of a hand-wired tube amp would produce the best sound, my experience has pushed me to another reality. I’m not suggesting that I’ve achieved maximum sonic fidelity, only that I’ve gotten rid of a distracting hum from a product that advertised noise filtering and silence. I might be better off if I could generate my own “pure” electricity without having to rely on the grid in my major metropolitan area, but I’d rather listen to music. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by JOMAN on 12/22/22 at 04:52:09 I get it, and I'm not disagreeing or trivializing anything that you have said or questioning what you have experienced. In fact when I was experiencing the hum from my CSP3-A I was seriously considering just how much longer I would continue trying to solve the problem. Nor am I suggesting that you should've have done what I did or am doing. After all I have spent a considerable sum of money going in the direction that I did and not everyone would. Over the years I have found that everything has certain limits. To enjoy music one does not have to have the ultimate sound. Music can be enjoyed at various levels with different components. In my case I find that I tend to explore where the limits are and push beyond, and this comes with certain demands. The pay off is that I get an increasing insight into the experience of music, I can begin to better understand the passion that musicians have for what they do. It's a sort of learning process for me along with the enjoyment of listening. At one time classical was not a genre that I would listen to often and when I did it tended to be a chore. That is no longer the case as the limits were pushed beyond the level that I was at. I am not flippantly saying "to each his/her own". The solution to the hum for some will be what you did. Others it may not. For those that want to solve it in another manner I have posted my experience in hopes that it may be of some benefit. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Ghostship on 12/22/22 at 12:09:03 You purchased this amp used. Did you send it in to Decware to get the warranty transferred or to have them inspect it? |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Waxspinner on 01/11/23 at 01:25:13 I have a Torii Mk4 as well. Hum from day one. Is it a deal breaker, nope, but it's disconcerting for sure. The OP made it clear that Decware brags about the quality of the transformers and point to point wiring creating the best sound. "If the first watt sucks, what's it matter." What if the first watt creates hum. Many many Decware amp owners have experienced, for them, excessive hum. The venerable Decware guru offers little to explain or alleviate this issue. Looking thru the forums on every amp, owners complain of hum issues. I have heard that there are fuses in the circuitry that can cause hum if blown...yes, this doesn't silence a channel. Joman, I don't understand your explanations. To each their own? Who pays thousands of dollars on a reputably works class amp to have noticeable hum from their amp and speakers? Well, actually, many tube amp owners unless they're hybrid amps. Either way, it should be unacceptable. PipHelix: I applaud your choice to move on from mediocrity to excellence. Well done. Now it's time to sit back in the glory of a quiet, satisfying system. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Geno on 01/11/23 at 03:54:09 I’m not going to pretend that hum cannot be the most aggravating thing about this hobby. Matter of fact, a while back, I got rid of a piece of Decware equipment, because of hum that I was just fed up with dealing with. In my experience, it has always been an issue involving vinyl playback. But, with that said, I’m betting that in 95% of these situations, it is not the amp itself causing the hum. It could be any number of things, unfortunately, and Hard to troubleshoot: 1) proximity of wiring, in particular interconnects in relation to power cables. 2) type and/or quality of cables 3) proximity of a component causing interference with another component or wiring 4) a problem with a particular tube 5) problem with an outlet/outlets and the combination of components plugged in to them Example of an issue I had recently. I got a new SS Phono pre. I had it connected to a SS amp. My setup is biamped, with bass drivers powered by a subwoofer amp. I was getting a loud hum playing vinyl. Having just put the new phono pre in, I figured it had to be something involved with it. After trying combinations of different experimental changes, I seemed to be at a dead end. Not too long before this, I had changed out the power cable from my power conditioner to the wall. I thought that this was a very nice cable, and had not had any issues playing from digital sources. I swapped it out with a Decware cable, and the hum completely disappeared. My point is that anything in the chain could be an issue, and chances are that one could take their perceived problem component to the mothership, put it in Steve’s setup, and you would not have a hum. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 01/11/23 at 18:25:37 I am coming to this conclusion and wonder if it is correct. Is it possible that after taking all steps to mitigate hum suggested, it is simply the nature of the Torii MKIV to hum? Is it typical with a Torii MKIV to hear a speaker hum with one's ear at 2 inches from the speaker, 2 feet from the speaker, or from the listening position that may be 10-12 feet from the speaker - when no music playing? When listening to music on the Torii MKIV, the hum cannot be heard from the listening position. Is that as good as it gets if you cannot hear a hum when listening to music with the Torii MKIV? |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Ghostship on 01/11/23 at 21:34:02 If this is an issue that you are actually having with an amp that you actually own, contact Decware. Not everything you read on the internet is as it seems. For instance, there are people posting under more than one username who have an agenda other than earnestly helping people solve their hum issues, and strangely their conclusion is always anti-Decware. Tube amplifiers are microphonic. Revealing amplifiers like Decware's may certainly identify sound quality weaknesses in your system. Additionally, there might possibly be part in your amp that needs repairing or modifying (like replacing a blown fuse or rectifier, or bridging terminals to overcome elevated ground issues). I am not going to buy a used car without getting it inspected, and refuse to get it looked at by the manufacturer's service department when it's running like crap, and instead go to their website and b@tch about how poorly their design and build process it. If you buy a used Decware amp that doesn't sound right to you, allow them the opportunity to check it out. They are also willing to discuss your entire system and give advice on how to solve your issues. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Waxspinner on 01/11/23 at 22:04:54 Or, maybe there's a preponderance of Decware amp owners who experience hum...not limited to the Torii mk4. Are tube amps usual suspects for such? Maybe. If a Decware amp owners of a used equipment want it looked at by DW it will cost hundreds of dollars in shipping and labor. Yes, this may be a good functional solution but it is likely to also have a significant financial burden. These are realities, not arbitrary complaints, Decware trolling or some other nefarious actions. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by CAJames on 01/11/23 at 22:50:54 Quote:
Maybe. I can only speak for myself and my UFOs and they are dead silent. The thing is, as Geno and others point out, there are lots of reasons that a tube amp can hum besides the amp itself. I would +1 the other posts suggesting you contact Decware, and if necessary send it back for a check up. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by 4krow on 01/11/23 at 23:38:26 I now have no doubt that I am not the only one who has had 'hum wars' with various types of audio equipment! Before I go pointing a finger in any direction, I have to test one thing at a time. When some of you are talking about testing for DC offset or DC just being on the line, it should first be checked at least at your electrical AC outlet. AND don't have anything plugged into that circuit from your audio system. You may have DC right at that point. If so, your trouble likely has nothing to do with your audio system, right? Keep plugging in and testing as you go for DC. Yes, I hate this method but only because it is slow. One thing good about it is that you won't skip over the problem as easily as when you 'assume' things are ok but untested. I like to connect the power amp only with no connections to it except for the speakers and of course the AC power. I have to state something here too. Make sure that you are talking specifically about where the hum is coming from, whether the speakers (both or one of them) or the transformer itself or both. Specifically identifying the problem will keep you from going in circles. Also, when listening for hum with nothing connected to the input, it should be tried as well with a shorting plug inserted in the RCA jack. Only when you move slowly from one situation to the next can you identify the source. Shooting in the dark by replacing a power cord here or an interconnect there will just lead to more circles. One thing at a time or start spinning. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 01/11/23 at 23:39:52 Ghost ship: I have been active on the Forum for a couple of years and in no way "anti-Decware." Just the opposite. I may never become an audiophile, but I have picked up much from the Forum. It has been an enjoyable education and journey. Last year, after a year and a half wait in line for a new amp, I was lucky enough to end up with two amps purchased directly from Decware: a brand new SE84UFO and Steve's very own house Torii MKIV that he let go of right before the Torii MKVs came out. I am the original first-time owner of the Torii since it was his amp. I have talked with Steve more than once about the hum issue, trying various ideas he suggested to minimize or eliminate it. And, as I said, I cannot hear a hum with the music playing. Both my amps are now all CryoTone tubed. I have done everything I can imagine doing with room treatment. Everything suggested above in this thread, I've done. Both amps sound great; one has a hum, and the other doesn't when played in the same well-treated listening room. Sending the Torii back to IL may be the next step, but it's a big step that I don't take lightly. It is possible that back at the Mother Ship, the level of hum may be acceptable - within normal limits. Then, what do I do with that? What I am asking here is: Am I being too fussy? Hearing a hum at 12 feet may be the norm. Or, perhaps, one cannot compare a push-pull amp like the Torii to a SET amp regarding a hum - which is my current standard of comparison since I have both. Other Torii MKIV users might say, "Yea, mine hums too, but you get over it," or they might say that their amp doesn't hum as I have described here, so send it in - pronto. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Dominick on 01/12/23 at 07:50:22 Geno’s comment is spot on with his recommendations on things to look out for that can cause hum. My Torii MKIV is silent…even with a ZBIT, ZSB, and a Zstage in the signal path…. and soon to be a ZRock2 added as well. My electrical outlet is a home run line wired to my panel with a PSAudio Soloist outlet. My ZSTAGE is plugged into a line conditioner, but my Torii is plugged directly into the Soloist outlet. So far I have not had any issues. 🤞. Dom |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Ghostship on 01/12/23 at 14:36:32 Quote:
Are you sure we shouldn't refer to you as "Safebelayer"? There's no evidence of a "preponderance of Decware amp owners who experience hum". I will readily admit there are plenty of people in this world attempting to take shortcuts to Hi Fidelity or who haven't fully sorted out the deficiencies in their systems. It is asinine to purchase a used piece of hi-end stereo equipment without being able to afford to ensure it wasn't broken by the previous owners and/or damaged when shipped multiple times, much less being able to afford a sufficient level of quality of the rest of your system (from the crap in your ears to the treatment of your room and everything in between), and instead accuse the manufacturer of designing and building an inferior product. Especially when the OP said he swapped in a friend's Schiit Freya+ preamp and amp and there was no hum. I own that preamp, AND IT HUMS - in fact, the manufacturer clearly states in the damn owner's manual that it will hum and to either change tubes and/or get a ground loop isolator. So if his used Decware amp hums more than the Freya+, it is likely the amplifier needs repair or better quality tubes. Hopefully, the amp's new owner has enough money left over to have the amp professionally serviced or enough common sense not to blame Decware for his purchase of a broken amplifier. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 01/12/23 at 14:49:54 Thanks, Dominick, for that information. I had heard from other Torii MKIV owners on the forum that their amps also hummed. You are the first to report otherwise. As I have completed all the recommendations Geno offered and taken very similar steps to what you and others have suggested, it needs to go back to Steve. It sounds beautiful when played, but the fact that I can remove it from the overall system and insert my SE84UFO in the same room, speakers, cables, etc., and that amp performs without a hum suggests to me that there is a problem with the amp. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by 4krow on 01/12/23 at 17:17:23 Tony, Now THAT is a reasonable assumption. Damned problem for me is when I send in a unit with a notable problem to someone and they don't experience the same problem. Very frustrating. It does however, then point to something originating from the AC source itself, that does not affect all equipment, meaning the design of one amp may be prone to the effect, but another amp may not have that trouble. Again, it is frustrating. If that turns out to be your situation, it would be wise to measure for DC residing on your AC line. Yes, it can happen and no it may not affect all equipment. You would measure it between hot and ground. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Waxspinner on 01/13/23 at 00:14:09 Ghostship, I sense anger in your tone. Do a search for hum on this site and you'll come up hundreds of entries. Maybe I should have used the phrase, clear and convincing instead of preponderance. My bad, I apologize to offending your sensibilities. An amp that is 6 months old, reported to be fully functioning and advertised as hum-free, at least by implication, does not give rise to any expectation for possible repairs. Maybe you have hundreds of $ laying around for such things, but not everyone is you. Many people are buying these amps with little wiggle room. Reality. Many are buying with a lot of disposable cash. There's diversity. Remember, the OP didn't say it was intolerable sonically all the time, just irritating otherwise or during quiet passages, to the point of finding something that doesn't hum in their system to such a level. They acknowledged a miniscule amount of hum. They also acknowledged that others may have different experiences with Schitt products. Where there is also diversity is the experience of Decware amp owners experiencing hum regardless of cables, other equipment, and quality of incoming electricity. I have a question for you. Why are you so insistent on Decware being not the problem as opposed to a possible option of the problem? Or, another question, that buyers of high end, supposed audiophile quality equipment should find comfort in having to send their newly acquired amp into the mfr at a cost of $150 round-trip at a minimum with no guarantee of resolution? |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Dominick on 01/13/23 at 08:54:53 Tony…. You’re welcome. When I had my home rebuilt I went to great lengths to make sure that electrically I did as much as I could. The home run line was a must….plus I had the electrician put that line on the quieter of the two legs in the panel. The PS Audio Soloist I’m sure is also a contributing factor. I run an old Monster Power conditioner that The rest of my audio gear is plugged into (Dac, computer, Raspberry Pi, CD Player, Google Chromecast Audio, Ethernet line, and preamp). The power cable going to my white Zen SE84C+ amp is a custom-made cable from Will, and the Torii power cable is a Decware DHC-1. Ok…. Now for the snake oil. I do run a Mad Scientist Audio mini Discus puck on top of the Decware transformer and on top of the power cable receptacle. I acquired these years ago for free as a sample to evaluate their product. I’m not sure if they are still offering free samples…but according to their website they do. I say shoot them an email and ask for a free sample. Do I think it helps… Yes… but I can’t place a percentage on how much. One thing for certain….it didn’t hurt it. https://www.madscientist-audio.com/blackdiscusreg.html Hope this helps. Dom |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Carlsbad on 01/13/23 at 14:26:28 I'm late to the party but I'd be careful trying to collect data on how many amps "hum" since we all define it differently. My ZMA is dead silent, one of the quietest amps I've ever heard. But if you put your ear right on the tweeter you can hear a bit. Hum should be considered hum if it is audible at say 2 meters. Some people may be reporting the sound with your ear on the tweeter as hum. I had a Rachel that hummed. DC offset was suggested. It is often chased and hardly ever found. I opened it up and found that one of the fuses under the rectifier was blown. The 5U4 series rectifier has two plates and so there were 2 fuses on the bottom of the rectifier for each half of the rectified power. The amp was running on half power. I don't know if Torii has these fuses, someone should look. If you do have these fuses, I suggest jumpering them. They are there to protect the output transformers. transformers are not that expensive. Good sound is. alternatively, the rectifier could have missmatched halves. I'd swap out the rectifier. If your transformer is actually humming at the amp, then there is a significant imbalance in the load somewhere. Jerry |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 01/13/23 at 15:20:10 Yesterday I was able to talk with Steve. He seemed read-in on the situation; perhaps he had seen this exchange. In any event, we concluded that the next step was to send the amp back to Decware for an assessment. In the meantime, my SE84UFO - which continues to impress me - replaces the Torii in the listening room. More on that in another post. Thanks to all for your thoughts, information, and encouragement. I'll follow up with another post once the Torii returns. In the meantime, I took Dom's suggestion from his "snake oil" file and requested "Black Discus Free Samples" from (madscientist-audio.com). It couldn't hurt, right? Another tip I got that most people won't have access to is for a local guy who does home "hum exorcisms" on stereo equipment- it's a Berkeley thing. :) |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Dominick on 01/13/23 at 17:14:03 Tony…play around with the Mad Scientist Discus samples in different locations. They may work better in some locations than in other locations. I never got around to it…but I have been meaning to buy their full sized ones. Good move sending it back to Steve for an evaluation. At least you have a Zen amp to keep you happy. I’ve been using my Zen amp lately for my daily listening, and the Torii for parties, movies, and when I want to turn up the volume and rock out. My fully modified SE84C+ has far exceeded my expectations in my larger open floor plan rooms with vaulted ceiling’s. Good luck and keep us posted. Dom |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by PipHelix on 01/13/23 at 21:42:58 OP here once again. Looks like this thread continues to bring up lots of thoughts and feelings almost a year later. For the record, I’m not anti-Decware in any way. I posted about my hum close to a year ago and followed up 11 months later after trying a bunch of things without success. Why didn’t I send the amp in to Decware for evaluation and transfer of warranty? Cost was a concern. I wasn’t sure I wanted to keep the amp long term and it was expensive. Two-way shipping, a new complement of tubes, and 10% of the amp cost for warranty transfer was more than I wanted to spend. Plus, I read about someone else with hum who sent their amp in and it didn’t hum on the bench. I wasn’t so committed to the tube experience that I wanted to chase issues or sink money into power conditioners, etc. If you’ve ever dealt with electrical gremlins or intermittent issues while working on a car, you’ll know what I mean about chasing issues. But don’t Schiit preamps hum? My Freya+ hums through the speakers but I can only hear it with my ear right in front of the cones. I can live with that. The Torii added an overtone to quiet musical passages. I didn’t want to live with that. I could hear the hum through the speakers from across the room. The Torii hummed with no components plugged into it, only power. My amp could have had an issue or could have had no issue at all. I was, however, swayed by the fact that there are lots of reports of humming MkIV’s and other amps. In the end, an amplifier is a tool for allowing us to listen to music and I chose to go with another tool and have been content. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 01/13/23 at 22:57:55 I said above: Another tip I got that most people won't have access to is for a local guy who does home "hum exorcisms" on stereo equipment- it's a Berkeley thing. :) No comments on that line? I thought it was pretty funny. Krow said: If that turns out to be your situation, it would be wise to measure for DC residing on your AC line. Yes, it can happen, and no it may not affect all equipment. You would measure it between hot and ground. I hate to sound like a rookie, but what do you use to measure - a multimeter? And, if I were to measure, how to interpret results. I can search for the answer if you have a good keyword to plug in. If you have a link that explains this assessment further, that will help. Thanks. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by 4krow on 01/14/23 at 00:08:13 Yes, a multi-meter is required, and then set to DC in the volt range. One lead goes to ground, the other to 'hot'. I can't exactly say at what level that the DC would affect your particular amp, but I am betting that you would want less than 10 milli-volts of it present on the AC line. That's all I got. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 01/14/23 at 15:53:21 4krow, thanks for the suggestions. I am hopeful that I am on the right track returning the amp to Decware for assessment/service, but I plan on checking the DC level as you suggest. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by CAJames on 01/14/23 at 16:31:49 Quote:
I've spent plenty of time in Berkeley, I think I hung out with the dude in People's Park back in the 80's ![]() |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by 4krow on 01/14/23 at 18:52:47 Tony, Sometimes I do check for things like this for peace of mind. Also, someone will undoubtedly ask about it, and you have a quick answer. Hum problems can be challenging. Keep us up to date. It may help someone else. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 01/20/23 at 17:52:17 FYI: I followed up on Dominick's suggestion to request Black Discus pucks from https://www.madscientist-audio.com/blackdiscusreg.html. They are no longer available. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Dominick on 01/20/23 at 21:21:42 Tony….are just the free samples not available…or is the entire line not available? I’ve been meaning to buy the regular ones to experiment with….it’s on the to do list. My ZROCK2 should arrive on my doorstep in the next several hours 👏👏👏👏, so I’m looking forward getting that hooked up. Dom |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by 4krow on 01/20/23 at 21:56:02 Some of the mad scientist pages are not working, but I was able to get the page to sell the 'sticks'. Probably just a computer thing. Anyway, I am pretty sure that all of their products are still available. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 01/20/23 at 22:02:25 Hey Dom, You can scratch that one off your to-do list as the entire line is no longer available. I heard back from Bob Prangnell, Director of Mad Scientist Audio, saying that they are moving to be just a cable business. BTW, very cool about your ZRock2. I consider mine one of the best products I have received from Decware. You'll love it. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by 4krow on 01/20/23 at 22:02:45 Mad scientist. I have been messing around with their products for years. In short, they would have NO effect on hum, and that is not what they are intended for anyway. The effect that I get is mainly in the midrange. I actually bought one of their later products which I will call half a donut, cuz that's what it looks like. It is made to place usually on top of a torrid transformer. I placed inside on top of my amp's transformer. This has had an effect in bass and midrange but by leaps and bounds. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Dominick on 01/21/23 at 06:17:59 Tony….thanks for the heads up on their discs. Yeah I’m psyched about getting the ZROCK. I’ll use the stock tube to break it in….but I’m really looking forward to using the Amperex Holland pinched waist 5962 tube that I’ve been stocking up. 4krow….good to hear that you had a positive experience with their products. Both my Torii and Zen amps don’t have any discernible hum…but yes I did notice the change in the midrange…even with the samples. I didn’t know they would have no affect on hum…..good to know. Dom |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Tony on 02/08/23 at 15:43:04 In mid-January, I mentioned (above) that after talking with Steve, I would send my Torii MKIV back to IL to inspect for anything causing the hum I had experienced. After just a couple of weeks or so, it returned last week. As one might have expected, Steve found nothing wrong, and the level of hum found was within the expected levels of acceptance. Knowing that is helpful as I can now eliminate the nagging question of whether something is wrong with the amp. He did say he made some adjustments but could not predict how they would affect performance in my environment. The good news is that the hum is less to my ear. It is now similar to the hum produced by my SE84UFO when placed in the exact location. For both amps, the hum cannot be heard from the listening position 10-12 feet away from the speaker. I can pick it up from two feet, but that is not an issue. From my talks with Steve and my exploration over the past 14 months with hum management, I conclude that it is common for some Decware amps to hum. It is how loud they hum and how that affects the listener. Steve said the challenge is to design an amp with great dynamics and minimal hum. One could eliminate all hum, but at the cost of a higher quality sound. It is a balancing act. I should add one other newly discovered issue. After a year of daily amp use, my power tubes failed - or at least one did. Not to discount what Steve may have done by working around the edges when he had the amp, the change of power tubes might account for current hum improvement. |
Title: Re: Torii Mk IV Transformer Hum through speakers Post by Versarian on 06/23/23 at 10:22:56 Great! Thank you for your sharing. I can enhance my knowledge. It is so exciting. |
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