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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> Replacement Tubes >> CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1647622586 Message started by Steve Deckert on 03/18/22 at 17:56:26 |
Title: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 03/18/22 at 17:56:26 ![]() We had a wonderful thread started about these tubes and I accidentally deleted it so we must start over. For years we have gone on about New Old Stock tubes and fancy boutique bottles from China but both have a fairly high risk of having issues albeit for different reasons, and consequently these already expensive tubes become even more so when they pre-maturely fail, or develop noise or other issues. This is why I am thrilled to announce I have personally found tubes that sound superior to both and have none of the quality control issues that we've put up with from China and or New Old Stock tubes from eBay. This lead to some long phone conversations with Don Thomas who created Cryotone Tubes. We have decided to work together to bring you these tubes. The first step is to try them and see if they are for you. To facilitate that we have this forum, and a 10% coupon to get you started. Additionally, we will be working with Don to create Cryo treated complete tube sets for our amplifiers which will be available on his site when complete. You can visit their website at https://www.wathenspeakers.com/wathen-cryotonetrade-tubes.html and use the promo code: DECWARETUBES to receive a 10% discount on your entire order. Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by Steve Deckert on 03/18/22 at 18:26:39 I should like to add to the above that I have these tubes in my own amplifiers and they sound profoundly different than everything else due to his tedious Cryo process and the careful grading of tubes before they ever enter the process. I can honestly say I haven't heard anything better regardless of cost, brand, current production or New Old Stock. Since I've purchased, installed and tested over 100,000 tubes in our amplifiers and tried every new brand that pops up on the market which has been hundreds over the past 20 years alone, I am uniquely qualified to know and hear the difference in tube quality. These are the real deal. They will let you hear the full potential of your Decware gear and they last longer than other tubes which helps offset the price. -Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by Geno on 03/18/22 at 19:03:45 Steve, I sure hope there is a hard push for them to start selling the 6P15P-EV. Have we heard anything else about that? Thanks, Geno |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by spyder1 on 03/18/22 at 20:14:18 Stale SUSHI? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by Steve Deckert on 03/19/22 at 00:45:32 Yes, we have plans to offer the 6P15P-EV as well as all other Decware tubes. It's a process and will take some time. I'll report progress in this thread over the coming months. Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by funch on 03/19/22 at 01:31:27 This is great news. We can put away the dice. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by MyBlueSky on 03/20/22 at 01:11:46 Just ordered a pair of 5ar4’s. If they can get me to stop hoarding nos Mullards I might be able to retire one day! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by piezoman on 03/20/22 at 20:42:21 After selling most of the remainder of my stupidly purchased bellowing big huge fat antique tube stash off and on over the past 2-3 yrs. like a paranoid screaming banshee on meth, and spending way way too much because of it, though net sales $$ is still in the black, its all way too much effort and so the following applies: 1. I've heard enough already from credible folks on the practicality and even more important the sonics of Cryotone tubes. 2. So.....I've just outfitted the CSP3 with a 5AR4, two 6SN7's, and an ECC88. The results are no question whatsoever significantly superior to the any of the AZ1's, 6SN7's, and any input tube I've had and that's been pretty many. 3. Like I mentioned, I've held on to a few pairs of [very expensive] prime examples of the best of yesteryear in a couple rectifiers and input tubes....for nostalgia reasons. As for real use, its Cryotone from here on out. The Torii MK 5 is going to be expensive which is why I'll just start with the ECC88 upgrade. With the many thousands in $$ received already and will receive in the future until most everything is gone, I will still pocket several $$ over the cost of going Cryotone. The point I'm saying is that the issue of practicality alone is overwhelmingly significant...I'm a living example of it, LOL Don Thomas, Steve Deckert, or other members here like JOMAN are NOT LYING when they tell you even their beloved NOS tubes or fashionable flavor of the day can't hold a candle to the Cryotones in practicality nor performance. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by Geno on 03/20/22 at 20:50:28 That is good news. Like you, I’ve been waiting for a few brave souls to try these out. Sounds like it is unanimous that these are the way to go. I guess the only question now is longevity. Only time will answer that one. Best, Geno |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by piezoman on 03/20/22 at 20:57:09 Heyyyyyyyy Geno! :-) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by Geno on 03/20/22 at 21:25:34 ;) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by kulafu on 03/20/22 at 22:25:07 Brad! Great endorsement from you, John and of course, Steve! I am enjoying mine on the UFO25th, CSP3 and the ZR2. Curious as well on life of these tubes. Bob |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by duaneh on 03/21/22 at 14:38:44 Hey Kulafu, which rectifier did you install in your UFO25th, the 5U4GB or the 5AR4? (Or maybe there's no difference.) Thanks. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by kulafu on 03/21/22 at 14:58:46 I have the 5AR4 for the UFO25th. I am getting the 5u4G for the CSP3. The 5u4G gives you more sag. Bob |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by Doug on 03/24/22 at 17:25:28 Having no need for additional tube inventory, but having read, with much interest, the numerous testimonials about Wathen tubes, I ordered a single 6SN7 on Saturday March 19th. The tube will be used in the input stage of either my CSP3 or my Cary 300B integrated. The expected arrival date was Tuesday the 22nd, but the tube was a no show, so I shot off a quick email to Wathen asking for a shipping update. No email reply was received by early Wednesday afternoon, so I sent another email suggesting that my order may have been misplaced or some how lost, but again no reply from Wathen. I called Wathen this morning a few minutes before 10:00 and left a message requesting a status update on my order. Within 5 minutes, Don Thomas, himself, called me and we had a delightful 15 minute conversation. Not one time during our discussion did I sense that he wanted to end the call. My impression is that he was quite pleased to be conversing with another music lover about his business and the processes he is using to produce the best sounding, longest lasting tubes in the world. Toward the end of the call I asked him if he had any plans to offer large directly heated triode tubes—the 300B, specifically—and he surprised me by saying that he has mastered the cryo process for a particular 300B and that he would be happy to produce a pair for me. It seems there’s way more work going on at Wathen Audiophile than Don’s website indicates. And bottom line…….Don seems like a super nice guy. He reminds me, in a numbers of ways, of Steve Deckert. My missing tube? Don had been replying to my emails, explaining that the 6SN7’s are on back order and scheduled to arrive at his place in a couple of weeks. For some reason his emails are not landing in my inbox. The communication issue was not with Don; it is with my iPad. I was just pondering……it might be wise to order a few more tubes, knowing that there are three 6SN7 tubes on my Cary integrated and another three places where 6SN7’s can be used on the CSP3. We’ll see. I didn’t ask about tube life, but Don detailed for me how two different music mastering plants have each been running ten of his Cryotone tubes, 24/7, for more than three years now. He went on to say that none of these tubes seems to be getting any weaker, even though they have been used none stop for several years. I think that’s pretty cool! Sorry I have no feedback on Cryotone sound quality, but this type of feedback may prove just as valuable. Doug |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by piezoman on 03/24/22 at 20:49:15 Yeah, apparently they are balls to the wall all the way to failure, which is very different than anything I ever heard of. Normally a tube just gets weaker over time as sound quality degrades, then its kaput one way or another....unless of course you have blanking China-CCP shit-garbage and its fireworks early. My NOS days are pretty much over. I keep a couple of the pre-60's very expensive and now obsolete in terms of practicality Mullard, Telefunkens, Amperex, etc. in the second system [along with a few spare pairs for nostalgia only and will sell them years from now for a tidy sum], which is purely non-critical/casual listening, until they fart and die....then Wathen replaces them. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by Steve Deckert on 03/26/22 at 05:54:53 We see a very bright future with Cryotone Tubes. Coming from the city where Caterpillar Tractors are built, and Cryogenic treatment was invented to strengthen tractor parts, mostly engine parts in the rotating assembly, I knew that it's not about freezing something to absolute zero, it's about how you ramp the temperature over time. Different metals have different ramps. Finding all the ramps with trial and error takes time, and is expensive. You only do it when you are serious about finding the best possible outcome. After talking with Don and Roger who make Cryotone tubes, I knew straight away they were the real deal. I listened to the tubes they sent me and compared them to my collection of Cryo tubes from other companies who will remain nameless, and it was so obvious. It's the real deal. I have little to gain and lots to lose with a bogus recommendation. The most fascinating part is that if you grade tubes and pic the good ones and Cryo treat each one with it's own recipe, like these guys do, then it doesn't matter the brand, how much it cost, if it was NOS from the Blackburn plant or exotic asian tubes for giant money, they will not sound better. They can't. They Cryo process is real. It molecularly changes things. You can hear it. -Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by Lon on 03/26/22 at 13:06:30 Well, I've been tempted to order for a few weeks now. I was going to order power tubes, but I just don't want to go EL84 and will wait until Steve's tubes are available through Cryotone. So . . . I succumbed to temptation and ordered a pair of 6SN7 WC. We'll see if they are actually more to my taste than the RCA Gray Glass good old ones I've been using in my Monoblocks and CSP3. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas Post by Steve Deckert on 03/27/22 at 04:54:30 ![]() https://youtu.be/lnv_eemleBk Here is a video I did to demonstrate the dramatic difference Wathen Cryotone Cryo-treated tubes make in our amplifiers against not only our hand selected standard, but also against boutique Chinese super tubes. -Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 03/28/22 at 23:32:50 When the "High Resolution Sushi" thread was accidentally deleted my post was as well regarding the results when I rolled the Cryotone tubes into my UFO25 and ZR2. I was going to wait to post again after I get the Cryotone tubes that I ordered for my CSP3-A. But after following this thread I felt that I should post specifically regarding the Cryotone EL84. This is not intended to convince anyone to get the Cryotone instead of the 6P15P-EV. Rather it's to suggest strongly that you do not stereotype the Cryotone EL84 as just another variation on the EL84 theme, so to speak. I assure you it isn't! If you do you will be doing yourself a disservice. I had the original Svetlana tubes in my UFO2 and preferred those to the 6P15P-EV. In my UFO25 I preferred the 6P15P-EV to the Svetlana hands down. I also tried the TAD EL84STD in both amps and preferred the 6P15P-EV and still feel that it's a very good option. I did not try the Cryotone EL84 because I was unhappy with the 6P15P-EV. I tried it because of what Steve initially posted. The Cryotone EL84 is a different experience from all of the above, so much so that I wish we would not have to use the EL84 designation for it. Is it an experience that you would like? Can't say, only one way to find out. I'll add that when I replaced all of the tubes with the with the Cryotone the result was such that they are still in the UFO25 and I consider the price to be a deal. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 03/29/22 at 03:46:12 Quote:
At a hundred plus dollars a tube (and I need four) that is probably a cliff I will not be looking over. Of course I said that about hundred dollar fuses too and now I have 3 three of them.... |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 03/29/22 at 04:09:10 Quote:
Oh that nasty audiophile itch! ;D |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 03/30/22 at 23:27:37 Oh that nasty audiophile itch! I had to scratch mine. I just ordered two ECC88’s. The plan is to use them in my modded CXN, since I use it with both my tube and SS amps 🤔 |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 04/06/22 at 14:52:14 How long has it taken folk here to get an order? I ordered two tubes 11 days ago and haven't received anything other than an acknowledgement of my payment, and no answer to an email sent two days ago. Not tremendously impatient, just thought I would hear something by now. TIA. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 04/06/22 at 15:51:02 Hi Lon, Looking back over my notes, it took about 3-weeks between my CryoTone tube order and delivery. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 04/06/22 at 16:01:08 Thanks Tony! Good to know. I can adjust my expectations. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by GroovySauce on 04/06/22 at 21:40:14 I received an email today saying a batch is being finished this Friday and are looking to ship on Monday. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 04/06/22 at 23:34:27 I received an email today saying a batch is being finished this Friday and are looking to ship on Monday. Ditto! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 04/07/22 at 00:23:17 Well that's nice. I just received a message saying mine are on backorder. Sigh. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 04/07/22 at 00:49:02 Lon, which ones did you order? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 04/07/22 at 01:15:54 A pair of 6SN7. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 04/07/22 at 01:25:27 Lon, Will the 6SN7s go in your CSP? I know you like that tube in that pre-amp. If so, what will you put in the third location? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 04/07/22 at 01:32:04 I'm using 6NS7 with converter bases in all three signal positions in my CSP3 with the Anniversary mods, my CSP2+ with the Anniversary mods (just put back into play replacing the PS Audio GCHA in my headphone system) and as the input tubes in my SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the Anniversary mods and in my Taboo Mk IV with the Anniversary mods. With the converter bases they work anywhere the 6N1P or 6922 or 6DJ8 etc. would and imo they sound fantastic (RCA Gray Glass being my favorite). The Cryotone when eventually arrived I want to try as the input tubes in the Monoblocks (my main system amplification). |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 04/07/22 at 02:00:44 Looking forward to your comparison Lon. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 04/08/22 at 03:48:23 I’ve chatted with Don a couple of times over the past week regarding my 6SN7 back order. The 6SN7’s are sitting on a container ship. He expects to see them within two weeks, but there is no specified date. Cryotone ECC88 tubes are in stock. On a side note, Cryotone 300B tubes are special order and run $966 per matched pair, which is $534 less than WE 300B’s. At these prices, Western Electric’s five year warranty and incredible reputation speak loudly. My new WE 300B’s should arrive on Monday or Tuesday! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by RJR on 04/08/22 at 12:49:43 Ok, I am a bit confused. Reading their website, they state under Quick Facts, "Wathen products are designed, and handcrafted in Houston , TX." Yet Doug's post says, "The 6SN7’s are sitting on a container ship." Are these tubes made in USA then cryotreated or made outside USA, arrive at their facility then cryotreated, then rebranded to Wathen? Thanks |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 04/08/22 at 13:57:14 The latter. They do not manufacture tubes. Most of the type of tubes Wathern offers are NOT made in the USA. . . at all. So they are foreign tubes treated in their facility to their special cryo thang. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 04/08/22 at 18:07:45 I gather that most—maybe all—of Don’s tubes are sourced from JJ Electronic in the Slovak Republic. None are sourced from Russia. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 04/14/22 at 03:27:21 We are going to be sending a hundred lot of 6P15P-ER tubes and a hundred lot of 6N1P-EV tubes to Don next week for them to add to their inventory. Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 04/14/22 at 10:34:37 Great news Steve! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Zork on 04/14/22 at 17:15:50 Any 6N5P? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Zork on 04/14/22 at 17:18:20 Any 6N5P? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 04/15/22 at 20:03:02 Anyone with a pending Cryotone tube order heard from Don the past 8 days? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 04/15/22 at 21:05:37 Yes, mine are on the way. Last I talked with Don he was waiting for a shipment and then had to cryo treat them. So they'll probably be on the way to everyone soon. The ones that are en route will be going in my CSP3-A. So all my components will have the Cryotone tubes. I'll also be rolling the 12AU7 Long Plate in the input position of my CSP3-A and comparing it with the ECC88W. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 04/19/22 at 02:21:02 Received my Cryotone tube order this afternoon. To make a long story short here's what's in my system now: ZR2-A: Cryotone 12AU7 Long Plate CSP3-A Cryotone 12AU7 long plate w/adapter for the input Cryotone E88CC-W for output Cryotone 5AR4-W Rectifier UFO2-25A: Cryotone E88CC-W for the input Cryotone EL84 for output Cryotone 5AR4-W Rectifier Raytheon OC3W Input VR Raytheon OA3 output VR (short/medium GT bottle) Early report after 4 hours... simply put the system now kicks a** BIIIIG TIME! The tubes in the amp and ZR2-A are not going anywhere and I doubt that the tubes in the CSP3-A will go anywhere either. I'll confirm after next weekend. Oh yes, for those who may be wondering about the bass??? With the Omega Vintage 8HO and this tube set in a 2.3 watt amp... unreal! What started me on this path was Steves comment about the sound coming from the system that he had the Cryotone tubes in being the best yet - something to that effect. He wasn't kidding! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by PDXDrew on 04/22/22 at 04:41:46 I'm very happy to say I received and installed my first Cryotone tube in my system. It's a 12AU7 long plate that I added to ny Zstage. I noticed an immediate difference in attack, and micro detail. after an hour the system transformed into this beast of beautiful sound. Deeper and much wider soundstage. Space of instruments, and vocals has taken on another dimension onto it's own. Everything has more timber and reverb. it's is if the music were a living being There is a new smoother easiness to the sound. I loved the sound of my system prior to this update, but wow. And yes- off of one tube. Now I'm going to upgrade the input tubes on my ZMA. This is cool!!! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by PDXDrew on 04/22/22 at 05:00:01 I need to clarify that the smoother easiness to the music by no means anything is rolled off. If anything everything is extended, with an added sharpness, but not brittle, or bright. Cymbals have a new shimmer and much more metallic sound. All I can say is the more listen the more I want to thank Steve for brining our attention to these beautiful audio jewels. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by will on 04/22/22 at 06:34:57 PDXDrew, Sounds good! I wonder what the tube you changed from was? Thanks, Will |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 04/22/22 at 12:24:14 Ditto to everything that PDXDrew said, emphatically so. Something else that should be kept in mind, IMO. I now have all Cryotone tubes in my system but I rolled the tubes one or a pair at a time and listened before moving forward. Certain tubes like the 12AU7WCL-Long Plate and the EL84 made quite a difference, but the real magic started when all the tubes were rolled. This is the real deal (someone else said that as well). |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by PDXDrew on 04/22/22 at 14:40:21 Hi Will, The tube I had in before the Cryotube was an NOS-12AU7-CT 12AU7 RCA Clear Top, which was a step up from the stock tube. And wow did I stayed up late last night. :) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by will on 04/22/22 at 16:04:52 Thanks PDXDrew. Glad your music is so seductive! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 04/22/22 at 21:00:30 Another two weeks to wait for me, what I ordered didn't arrive on the incoming shipment. Gives me time to break in another Purple fuse in my SACD transport, in my headphone system in my CSP2+ with the Anniversary mods, and in my CSP3 with the Anniversary Mods in the audio/visual system. The "3 for 2" sale was too hard to resist, it's going on through this month. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 04/23/22 at 11:56:01 After having an all Cryotone tube complement I've decided to take one more step and hopefully end my tube rolling. The the 12AU7-WCL made such a difference when I installed it in the input position of my CSP3-A with the ECC88-WC in the output that I have decided to roll the Cryotone 12AU7-WCL and the 12AX7-WCM in the CSP3-A and various combinations of those and the ECC88-WC. I've ordered two more adapters and will be ordering the tubes next. It'll probably be well into May before I'll come to any kind of conclusion on this part of the Cryotone journey. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by piezoman on 04/23/22 at 17:12:41 Quote:
Ditto, John! I too hope to finally end my old exceedingly expensive obsession in ancient tubes with a dead end for a bright future in Cryotone. At some point, I want to sell off nearly all of the remainder of the great, ridiculously expensive old stock stuff from the 30's, 40's, and 50's and never look back. You spend $180 on a known beloved antique tube only to watch it die in a year. Those days and that kind of rick needs to be over with. Up to this point, it was the only acceptable alternative in the small tube market....now we have a better alternative and apparently a much longer life with these Wathen tubes.....with high quality right to the end of the tube life, as opposed to decreasing SQ over time and always having to experience that "something missing" as time goes by....this alone is a big deal to me. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Palomino on 04/28/22 at 16:12:28 Thanks guys. I just bought an input tube. It's the first time I have been moved to buy something in quite a while. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 05/02/22 at 13:45:27 I've been following the thread on the development of the 300B amp and Steve made a comment regarding tubes that struck a chord with me (I really did not want to use that pun but there it is): Not a direct quote...You can get fabulous sound with a pair of $200.00 300B tubes but the ultimate sound with a pair of WE $1,500.00 tubes. Based on my experience with the Wathen EL84-WC that's the exact comparison that I would make with difference that EL84-WC make to the UFO25: You can get fabulous sound with a pair of $52.00 6P15P-EV tubes but the ultimate sound with a pair of $216.00 EL84-WC. In other words, the Wathen EL84-WC are to the UFO25 what the WE 300B are to the 300B amp. In that case the EL-84-WC are a screaming deal. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/05/22 at 22:49:39 My Cryotone 6SN7 are finally in and shipped. Next week I'll get to see if there is something to fuss about in all the fuss. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 05/06/22 at 04:44:44 I have been using the Cryotone ECC88-WC input tubes in the 300B amp and comparing to the original 6N6P which should be the far superior tube and usually is, but the Cryotone has better resolution. BTW, I sent Don my personal UFO25 amplifier so he can use it to fine tune his process on the 6P15P output tubes. Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 05/06/22 at 17:43:52 Just received three Cryotone 6SN7-WC tubes from Wathen Audiophile! In a few minutes my 300B amp will be fitted exclusively with Western Electric and Cryotone! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 05/06/22 at 21:20:24 Ok, I can confirm that Cryotone 6SN7 tubes are the best 6SN7’s I’ve ever used, and I’ve used all kinds of NOS and current production 6SN7’s going back through the mid 1990’s. These Wathen tubes are the perfect compliment to the Western Electric 300B’s. It’s a great day to be an American audiophile!!! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/06/22 at 22:08:57 Interesting. Good to know. I'll find out soon. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 05/07/22 at 22:44:15 Lon, Looking forward to your impressions of the Cryotone 6SN7. All in goodtime sir. Thank you Doug, That's good news to hear. Glad you like them. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/07/22 at 22:58:16 The 6SN7 have been in my system for four hours now. Not a long time. I sat down about fifteen minutes ago to give them a second listening and tailor the sound around them a little. They are very impressive tubes. They are NOT yet my favorite input tubes on the Monoblocks. I still prefer the RCA Gray Glass for their fantastic "tone"--they just have a richness to the tonal textures and a tinge of warmth to the tonal frequency that the Cryotone lack. . . yet. . . so far. I know it's very early in their placement and seasoning. The Cryotone do however add just a smidgeon more depth to the sound and a dash more macrodynamic contrast--two things that help bring a splash more "realism" to the presentation. I also recently have been enthralled with an unlikely pair of input tubes that I got the converter bases for recently: Amperex pinched waist 7062. These almost seem at this point like a fusion of the two 6SN7, with a great tonal character and also the great subtle improvements that the Cryotone brings in stage depth and micro-dynamics. I'm going to leave the Cryotone in and give the Monoblocks as much "powered on" time as I can the rest of the weekend. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 05/07/22 at 23:47:24 Lon said: I also recently have been enthralled with an unlikely pair of input tubes that I got the converter bases for recently: Amperex pinched waist 7062. These almost seem at this point like a fusion of the two 6SN7... Previously you mentioned how much you like the Amerex 7062 in the ZRock. Where exactly are you placing it in the reference above? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/07/22 at 23:51:36 As input tubes for the Monoblocks with 12xx7 to 6922 converter bases. I have three of these tubes so I can use them in these two positions and in the ZROCK2 (one just won't come out of my ZROCK2). |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 05/08/22 at 04:43:12 Cryotone 300B-WC tubes are now available from Wathen Audiophile. I would love to try a pair and compare them to my Western Electric 300B’s, but that is not financially feasible currently. The Cryotone 300B-WC tubes run $966 for a perfectly matched pair. Steve, has Don sent a pair of these to you? I’m sure that all those folks interested in your 300B amp will also be extremely interested in your take on the Cryotone 300B-WC tubes. Can we count on your judgement any time soon? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Giggsy on 05/08/22 at 23:09:10 I'd be curious if the 300B is hanging filament ala WE or coil like EH. In my limited experience hanging filament is far superior. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/08/22 at 23:44:12 Seems they are JJ 300Bs at nearly three times the price. I am not sure if these are hanging filaments or not. . . but they don't seem to be. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/09/22 at 13:31:52 With more hours on my 6SN7-WC I can understand why people have fallen for these tubes. They DO present more detail, especially in ambiance and finer textural elements. But for me. . . they're bright and bass-shy. Which is how JJ tubes have sounded to me outside the Cryotone world. I'm tuning all my tricks to try to get past the edge of high frequencies I hear and eliminate what I hear as "clanginess" due to this. Some success. Maybe more time on the tubes will bring out a little more bass and cure some of this edge. . . but my history with tube break-in tells me I'm likely to still hear a bit more of this than I can settle down in to. Here's hoping. I really do want to like these. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/10/22 at 19:26:02 Yesterday I received the Wathen 12AU7 and the ECC88. As I've written elsewhere, after 4 hours I found the sound to be aggressive and edgy. Much more than my stock CSP3 tubes and a 1960's Mazda 12AU7 in the ZR2. For those of you who speak so glowingly about the Wathen tubes, how many hours of break in should I give them before reaching a conclusion? At how many hours do you feel they reached their normal Wathen house sound? I so want to hear what you guys have described. But so far, no dice. And can I break them in just by leaving the units on? Or must music be playing? Thanks |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Palomino on 05/10/22 at 20:48:41 Do these tubes take a while to ship? On day 12 and haven't shipped yet. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/10/22 at 20:57:35 Mine took 2 weeks to ship and their communication about the process was not up to modern day standards in that they initially stated they would ship within 5 days yet gave no updates regarding the delay. I did eventually email them and they apologized and said they would ship later in the week, and they did indeed ship. I have a call into Wathen regarding their thoughts on break in time. Awaiting a call back. We've seen this movie before. Small boutique company has unexpected exposure resulting in 10 times more orders than normal leading to delays. Soon Wathen will have a 3 year waitlist as well... ;D |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Ghostship on 05/10/22 at 21:30:57 Break-in is an actual thing. I strongly recommend allowing any tube 200 hours of break-in, playing a wide variety of styles in addition to the type of music you enjoy, and at varying volumes in addition to your normal listening volume. Then, and only then, would I be able to make a fair comparison to other tubes that have already been burned in my system. Simply plugging a new tube in for a couple of hours, then believing it sucks seems awful silly to me....because I may be right, it may suck right now, but in a couple hundred hours, it may sound sublime. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/10/22 at 21:38:44 Ghostship: Well, in my admittedly limited tube experience, a new tube has sounded good from the beginning and gotten better as it broke in. This is the first time I had a tube sound off-putting from the starting gun. This is contrasted by a number of posts in this thread saying the Wathen tubes sound great after a few hours. Following your logic, it would be possible for a tube to sound good at first and then sour as it broke in. If breaking in is indeed real, then there ought be no guarantee that time will be kind. But I shall give it more time and see. The break in process will have to move the needle quite a ways to enter my green zone, but perhaps it will. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Ghostship on 05/10/22 at 23:03:45 It seems you are far more interested in arguing than actually benefitting from the experiences of those contributing in these forums...I am not the only one that has no time for that. In my experience, I have never, ever heard a brand new tube sound "amazing" without a realistic break-in period. They always sound better with time, unless they were cheaply made and thus become unusable. For instance, I am currently using NOS Sylvania 6SN7 GTBs and brand-new PSVANE CV-181T T-Collection tubes in my Schiit Freya+ pre amp. If I were like you and formed an opinion of these tubes' quality after a couple of hours of use, I would have flamed the forums sullying the name of the seller of the NOS tubes and China-Hifi-Audio and PSVane because they both sounded like crap. But, I was given two ears and one mouth, so I choose to use them in that ratio...thus I was pleasantly surprised that the combination of those tubes after 200 hours of break-in sounds utterly amazing. Also, your system may suck. Your room may suck. Who knows why you're not hearing what others claim to hear. My point remains valid: before you pass judgment on tubes, allow them to break in first. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Palomino on 05/10/22 at 23:16:42 Sorry, but I am not seeing 'Dancing' being that argumentative. Just stating his experience and asking for input. I personally have had tubes sound great right off the bat and some sound edgy. I wait to pass judgement on both. How many hours? I always lose track. But I have had some "now those really sound good" moments. I'll weigh in on this brand once I get the input tube I ordered and get a chance to listen. I also trust Lon's ears (I have bought gear from him) and will be interested to hear how his opinion evolves...good or bad. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/11/22 at 00:22:29 Ghostship wrote: Quote:
You made a point characterizing my honest experience as "silly". I countered your point by pointing out a hole in your logic. Why is your attack deemed ok, and my counter point deemed "argumentative". You took a swipe at me first sir. I challenge you to a pistol duel at dawn. Good Day! :D Anyway, back on track. I just got off the phone with Don Thomas. What a great guy. Super knowledgeable and a reader of our forum (Aloha Don!). He shared that his tubes will break-in some, but not as much as tubes that experience more of a break-in bloom. He said those break-in blooming tubes often don't last very long, while his tubes have great longevity. His primary business is providing tubes to large companies like Pixar where longevity & sonic consistency are key. He knew my 1960 Mazda tube and said that yes, his tubes will be different and have more of an edge to them than a NOS tube. He said that 100 - 200 hours of break-in ought to bring the Cryotone tube somewhere in between where it is now and my Mazda, that some of the edge should soften, but not nearly as soft as the Mazda or stock Russian 6n1P. That it purposefully won't become as warm as the Mazda. That the Mazda softness comes from noise, and once that noise is removed, the tube becomes more transparent and to give my brain time to adjust to hearing more information. He advised to dial the CSP3 output gain back a touch, that it should not be set in the same place that it was for the Mazda. He said to give Cryotone a couple of weeks to see if I like it. If not, he's happy to offer me different tubes in exchange, or a refund if it's just not right for me. Hard to argue with that. As for you naysayers, I have a broken bottle in hand and am reading for all-comers! [smiley=peanuts21.gif] |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 05/11/22 at 01:04:32 Ghostship said: Quote:
Brand-new Psvane cv-181t super bright and every note had an outline around them..... Now is an outstanding tube! How long to break-in, how many on - off cycles? Dont know for sure but it wasn't over night. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 05/11/22 at 01:50:12 DancingSea, Thanks for sharing you experience. Your conversation with Don Thomas is fascinating. I keyed in on the part about longevity and sonic consistency. Welcome to tube rolling. Once in awhile come up to the surface and look around. Lol the fun has just started. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/11/22 at 04:07:58 jec3504 - thanks, I shall! I encouraged Don to post in the forum. He knows a ton about tubes. He wasn’t sure if it was kosher for him to post. I said please do, that way at least one of us will know what he’s talking about ;) He said Pixar was only getting 6 months out of their previous tubes under heavy usage. Now they get 3 years out of CryoTone. Also that his cryogenic treatment is vastly different than the typical cryo treatment. So different as to not warrant the same name of treatment. He used to work for Dell, but left 10 years ago to pursue his passion for audio. He designs amps and it was challenging, if not impossible, to acquire consistent tube quality in bulk. NOS or otherwise. Even if good sounding tubes were found, that good sound often didn’t last very long. And hence CryoTone was born. From what I gather CryoTone shifts the needle in the less euphonic, and more transparent direction. Once I get 100 hours of break-in complete, I’ll tinker with the ZRock’s treble attenuation and see where that goes. I’m very much the euphonic type, and only trust transparency to a certain extent. Hear that transparency, I’ve got my eye on you!!! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by piezoman on 05/11/22 at 14:24:53 Hey John, how long have you been listening to music on a good system? I only ask this because as time goes by, usually one appreciates less noise [euphony] and more truth to the recording.....more specifically, tonal accuracy with a small dollop of warmth. By the way, what Don told you is exactly why I've been dumping a large percentage of the remainder of my inventory in favor of a significantly reduced and far better inventory. Brad |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/11/22 at 17:48:38 Aloha Brad! I offer you the secret communist handshake, good to see you comrade. Your undercover work with the fascist is inspiring. :D I bought a YBA integrated, Meadowlark Audio speakers, Ah! Tjeob CD 4000 with DH Labs cables in 1999. Had that for about 17 years while not yet contracting the audiophile virus. Never once thought of upgrading anything, didn’t know that’s something people did in the ways audiophiles do. In 2016 I wanted to understand more about what a DAC is. Google led me to Computer Audiophile. Within 6 months I had subscribed to Stereophile and TAS and the upgrade madness had begun, Sonus Faber, Hegel, Border Patrol, Decware, Magnepan, Duelund and PS Audio. My time with the DirectStream Junior led me into a world in which its designer, Ted Smith, feverishly pursued low noise in the pursuit of transparency. With each of his updates, noise was lowered, transparency improved, and another swath of my long time favorite CDs became unlistenable as their flaws became more apparent. Yes, Norah Jones DSDs sounded incredible, but at a great library price. I discussed this with Ted and he said that his goal was transparency and that he experienced the same thing as me, but that it was a necessary sacrifice to achieve ultimate resolution. He said it is was not possible to design a DAC that played both A+ and B grade recordings well. It was one or the other. Eventually yet another DirectStream update came and I had had enough. A degree of transparency was welcomed, but going too far down that road did not meet my sonic goals. I tired of listening to the same A+ recordings over and over. I missed the common folks. Sold the DirectStream Junior at a profit and bought a Border Patrol R2R DAC. Loved it! But it did not play DSD, and I have a large DSD collection. Sold it and bought the Marantz SACD 30n, which is amazing. Love it’s disc playing ability so much that I bought spindles of Taiyo Yuden blank CDs and DVDs and burned all my favorite album files to disc. I spent months doing that. Now I listen 90% to discs. 10% to streaming via a fabulous IFi Zen Stream w/ Elite power supply. The Mac Mini with lifetime Roon is no longer used for audio. I’m computer free. Next came the ZR2 and CSP3. With stock tubes on the CSP3, and my trusty Mazda NOS on the ZR2, I had achieved for me what is incredible sound. The Norah Jones SACDs sounded incredible, yet all my favorite non A+ recordings sounded extremely good. Night after night I ended each listening session by literally saying out loud, “that was ridiculous, so freaking good.” Recordings that had been banished made a prodigal son like return, and the crowd cheered. With amazing sound achieved and utter satisfaction acquired, night after night, in typical audiophile fashion, I became curious if something better is out there. And heck, $222 for a couple CryoTone seemed a bargain, especially with the glowing reviews here. That first night, with only 4 hours break-in, gave me DirectStream flashbacks. The transparency I had fled from was back! The villagers shrieked and ran back to their huts. Don has convinced me to give it 200 hours. I’m running the rig 16 hours per day, on a strict schedule. I’m at 20 hours so far. He suggested I peak in at 100. We shall see where the CryoTone end up. If the initial edge, or as Lon says “live wire”, dials back enough, or if the ZR2 can help compensate, it might work for me. Stay tuned! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by piezoman on 05/12/22 at 20:58:57 Hey John, I piss on fascists, marxists, and their brothers. Any handshake with them includes a live grenade [smiley=icqlite20.png] That's an interesting story, and I get where you are coming from. But give the tubes at least 150-200 hrs. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 05/12/22 at 22:56:53 piezoman, You looking at any Cryotone power tubes for your Torii? Unless you changed your order to the 300B. If so never mind. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/13/22 at 01:22:05 Brad wrote: Quote:
I hear ya brother! I feel the same way about the Judean's People Front, the People's Front of Judea, and the Judean Popular People's Front - wankers! And you make a good point, the suicide bomber secret handshake is quite different and typically includes the pass-phrase "Is that a rocket in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me...." ;D Monday night will be 100 hours, 150 by Thursday, and the holy land in about 10 days. In Kevin Deal's recent Paul McGowan skewering video he says the sweet spot with tubes starts at 1000 hours! I apologize in advanced for the gratuitous Life of Brian references..... |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Giggsy on 05/13/22 at 14:20:33 DancingSea, that made me laugh. Good job at remembering them. Life of Brian reference always welcome. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by piezoman on 05/13/22 at 14:58:23 Quote:
Not at this time. I've invested in a set of Pissvane EL34PH and Tubestore preferred series 6L6GC. As for the 300B, no interest at all. I did have a question about tuneability/versatility for Steve about it for a bleeping second, and he simply responded which says it all, "Hi Brad, The versatility of the TORII MK5 is off the scale compared to the 300B." The tube choices, including VR tubes, and otheer forms of adjustability in tuning is far more import to me than a more "all-in-one" design with limited tube types. To me, the Torii MK V offers far more in overall satisfaction and experimentation. To be so limited in experimentation IAW with my own mood changes and long term goals which can change a bit here and there is a total show-stopper, no matter how good that one window of sonics are. Power/headroom, and just as importantly versatility, are at the very top of the food chain this time around, after the failure of a 3.2w amp in the Taboo MK IV-25th [for speaker duty]. Have to get it right. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by piezoman on 05/13/22 at 15:04:41 Quote:
"Uncle Kevvy" is a craven salesman first bullshitter type, but he's right on the technicalities. The really cool thing about the Cryotones is that they hold their sweet spot from fairly early on -- all the way to the end which is several orders of magnitude vs. the antique stuff which start farting out and go downhill from there iteratively, well before that. Oh and no sweat, that was a funny joke, LOL |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 05/13/22 at 18:28:49 Thanks Brad, going to run the stock tubes for a while. Have a good selection of rectifiers and input tubes. After couple months I'll try getting into the rectifiers. Have some cool vr tubes, save them for later down the road. Just for the record I changed my order before the T&S youtube review. If the good reports keep coming in about Cryotones tubes I'll mostly go down that road. Only time will tell. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 05/13/22 at 18:35:38 Update on the Western Electric-Cryotone combination: I had a great experience yesterday evening with my system. The CSP3 has standard Decware issued stock tubes that have approximately 20 hours use. The Cary 300SEI has a Cryotone 6SN7 in the input position, two Cryotone 6SN7’s in the driver positions, and a pair of Western Electric 300B output tubes. The Cryotones now have 33 hours of play time, and the WE300B’s have around 135 hours of music play time. Ten years ago I had a system anchored by big 2a3 monoblocks and huge Lowther based horns. On certain bluegrass recordings it was fairly easy to talk one’s self into believing that there was a live band in the room. From the day that system left our home I have not experienced that level of musical deception……..until last night. It should be noted that my Lowther based system, on the vast majority of music, caused my ears to bleed. Talk about a tipped up high end…….throw a pair of 5 inch Lowthers on massive Azzura horns and point them at your listening chair! Last night, just before bed time, I went to the listening room to turn off the system which had been playing music all day. Instead, I decided to sit down to listen to the first movement of a Hadyn string quartet played by the Buchberger Quartet. I was instantly caught up in the performance, and I didn’t go to bed—I listened to all three complete quartets on this CD. And for the first time in ten years I was able to drift off into a dream world of a live performance in my listening room. It sounded so real. What caused this new level of system performance? Several huge changes have come to my system during the past 12 months, and each change has resulted in sound quality improvement, but the change I heard last night was out of this world. I believe that the only explanation is the new Western Electric and Cryotone tubes and the way they play together. It was an incredible experience. The most intriguing part of this situation is the fact that these 5 tubes are brand new and barely used. I am pumped! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/13/22 at 21:25:08 I have a couple questions that I don't believe anyone has answered. I am not sold on these very expensive tubes. Before I go further, anyone interested in excellent rectifier tubes should check out the SED 5u4g (https://www.ebay.com/itm/111896176406?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=QdZlV0lrRhG&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=zGZG0FPeTNu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=SMS). I've used rca and Mullard in my Torii mkiv...I like these the best. Rectifiers should last a long long time unless they're damaged or poorly made to begin with. 1. Where are the cryotone tubes originally manufactured? 2. How do we know they last much longer than nos or new production? Has anyone put 5-10k hours on the input or rectifier tubes? Comments. The fact that Steve uses Kevin "no" Deal as a reference loses credibility with me. Associating with him is a slippery slope. What does Kevin provide that guys like Andy Bouwman, Brent Jessee, and Jim McShane don't or don't do better? I love the rca gray top 6sn7 tubes. I don't think they're as good as amperex 7608 or higher graded 6922/7dj8 tubes. I haven't had these go bad yet and they're notably as or more affordable as the cryotone. Way better than the 6n1p or similar that Steve sells. Why, you may ask? Tone and freq response and quality. Dancingsea, kudos to you and your pushback on ghostship. First class on your part. I agree that tubes better sound good to begin with (within a few hours) or else they're being re-sold. Note that I did not say "great." I am curious who has 200 hours to wait before judging the true qualities of a tube? If I did that with each tube I've tried, there would never be any chance of spending significant time really enjoying my music, records. Maybe that works with streaming or CDs. Just to make this clear, if an album is generously assumed to be 1 hour long, 200 albums would be played before truly knowing the quality of a tube. Sure, there are some who do nothing else with their free time but listen to music. If I had 5 hours a day to listen to music, that would be 40 days straight before making a decision. And then, spending the time doing tuning with other tubes to find the best combination. Thanks but no thanks. I'm with dancingsea and others who trust a tube will sound really good from the start and then get better. If it sucks to start, who wants to spend the time to listen to poor sounding music. Finally, that 200 hours is eating away at my power tubes lifespan. Help me understand how that makes sense. End of rant. Feel free to contact me directly. Hi Brad, how's the csp3 working out for you? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 05/13/22 at 23:24:12 DancingSea, I read your initial experience with the Cryotubes that you have received. Perhaps I missed this... What amp do you have? If it's a Decware amp what tubes are in it? What rectifier is in the CSP3? Is your CSP3 the Anniversary version or has it been updated to an Anniversary version? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 05/13/22 at 23:30:06 Couple of other questions DancingSea... Did you get the 12AU7-WCL Long Plate? and if you are using the 12AU7 in the input position of the CSP3 what adapter did you get? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 05/14/22 at 17:23:37 Quote:
Cryotone and Decware are affiliates. Just like Caintuck & Lii Audio so Don and Roger are more than welcome to post here. : ) Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 05/14/22 at 18:20:51 Safebelayer, The sourcing of Don’s Cryotone tubes has been mentioned several times in this thread, and now Steve, himself, has become a tube source in order for necessary cryo testing and experimentation. Cryotone tube life has also been discussed. In a conversation I had with Don a few weeks back, he told me of two different pro studios that had been running 20 Cryotone tubes 24/7 for three years now, with no signs of wear or sound degradation. But………can you trust a guy who sells tubes for a living? I, personally, think Mr. Wathen is trustworthy. If Cryotone tubes last as long as Don claims, and knowing how his tubes sound in my system, they very well may wind up being the least expensive tubes I have ever purchased, and yet possibly the very best sounding. There appears to be way more to this story than initial cash outlay. I have some old Telefunkens, Amperex, and Mullard 6922’s—all purchased from Brent Jesse—that cost far more than Cryotone ECC88’s……..I just don’t see Don’s prices as being out of line. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/14/22 at 19:07:07 Doug, Thank you for your opinion. I'm still not seeing Steve's statement that Wathen is using a specific brand of tubes. I'll admit to a lack of careful reading, but I have not found the information. Fwiw, though I trust Brent and Andy implicitly, I do not buy exclusively thru them, but they are top notch resources. There are very reputable sellers of these tubes at much lower prices. I'm willing to take a chance on them with the information gained by discussions with Brent and Andy and initially buying from them. Those two have sold me many tubes which are still actively being used... it's my back stock found thru other vendors. One thing I particularly like about A & B, is they will encourage buying ugly stock or stock from a more recent vintage (60s instead of 40s or 50s), noting it sounds identical or so near to it that only perfect circumstances would reveal the micro differences. If I choose the more expensive, they're willing to sell. But when I buy the less expensive, I've found out they're right; the difference between the pretty tele or amperex and the ugly/60s tube is inconsequential. This is just my preference, so please do not take this as a suggestion or instruction. I'll trust recommended nos stuff from Andy and Brent before investing in JJ tubes, until those tubes have a substantial time of being long lasting and high sound quality. Fortunately for me, I have a large stock of everything the Torii mkiv uses, and they were way more affordable. If you haven't tried the nos SED 5u4g rectifiers, I highly encourage doing so. They're affordable and rectifiers, by function, last a long time...exceptions are notable, i.e. Sophia Electric, I found to be fragile. Hey, thanks for the discussion. Good stuff |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 05/14/22 at 19:37:12 I have tried the SED 5U4G and sold them, not my cup o tea at any price. But then there's tubes that I like in my system, in my environment that others do not. I don't even want waste the time to list all the different tubes that I have rolled. What I take exception to is anyone inferring by their opinion that something is overpriced and in the process actually calling into question the motives of an individual whether that is intended or not. Regardless of intent a persons credibility has been put into question and their reputation damaged by an opinion which may in fact have no basis or legitimacy. We may all be entitled to our opinions. But we are not entitled to express our opinions way in a way that may damage a persons good character for no good reason at all. As far as Wathen tubes being overpriced??? As compared to what??? I have tried rectifiers that cost as little as $50.00 to ones that cost $200.00 up to ones that cost several hundred dollars. I paid a little over $100.00 for a 5AR4-WC and as a result sold a Miniwatt/Philips GZ34 Metal Base for significantly more. Enough said! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/14/22 at 20:02:59 "But then there's tubes that I like in my system, in my environment that others do not." Joman, well said. Apparently, me too. I'm not sure what you're referring to about inferring that something is overpriced and the corollary about seller's intentions. Overpriced is relative to established norms for a particular level of quality. To say cryotone is established compared to 60-80 year old tubes is a stretch. That said, if someone thinks they're awesome then say it and why. That goes for both cryotone and nos. As for intentions of sellers, did I imply that Wathen is not above board? Please help me understand how I did this. Not my intention, but ignorance isn't a defense, which is why I'm asking. The one thing I can point to within Decware forums is the overall professionalism of the contributors. Thanks for sharing |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/14/22 at 20:27:22 The most fascinating part is that if you grade tubes and pic the good ones and Cryo treat each one with it's own recipe, like these guys do, then it doesn't matter the brand, how much it cost, if it was NOS from the Blackburn plant or exotic asian tubes for giant money, they will not sound better. They can't. They Cryo process is real. It molecularly changes things. You can hear it. -Steve So, the cryo process makes all tubes equal. Previously better tubes will be equaled by lesser quality sounding tubes. Is that what you're saying, Steve? I would love to see the blind study that demonstrates this. Or, send out samples to reputable reviewers, i.e. Tone magazine's, Jeff Dorgay. You are strongly recommending us, Decware component owners, to buy expensive tubes. It seems reasonable to ask for more than your "uniquely qualified" opinion. Forum participants do not qualify as known "qualified" reviewers. Rarely do they have well tuned sound rooms. Steve, your response is valuable. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 05/15/22 at 03:45:46 I really don't want to start a debate and that is not my intent and after this I will not comment. I have noticed that lately, in posts about cryogenic treatment, besides the word "overpriced", I believe the term "snake oil" has also been used in other posts and there is a connection between these posts. Most dictionaries define "overpriced" as -it costs much more than it should, -too expensive, costs more than its worth. Among the list of synonyms for "overpriced" the phrase "rip off" is included. With respect to "snake oil" the notation is made that it is used "to describe deceptive marketing, fraud, scam". Another term that has been used recently in posts is "used car salesman". That term is synonymous with "sleazy, pushy, crooked sales". Now whether or not the above is what we intend to convey when using these terms or words is not the point. The point is that many will take it that way because even if they're unfamiliar with the dictionary definition they are familiar with the negative stereotype. If we are going to post, myself included, we need to keep that in mind. It's not hard to slip from time to time. Sure, we may feel very strongly about something and try to express our sentiments with a degree of force, however remember, too much seasoning can make a meal distasteful. What I have said applies to me as much as anyone else. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/17/22 at 02:07:00 Aloha All, I haven’t been following the thread lately as I’m very busy designing two houses to be built on my property. For the sake of efficiency, I’ve eliminated nearly all things related to “wasting time on the internet” of which audiophile internet forums are enemy #1 for me. Quick comment about Don’s cyro treatment. According to him, and I have no way of independently verifying his claims, but he says that his cryo treatment is dramatically more advanced and sophisticated than what is typically termed cryo tube treatment. I gather from that that his form of treatment required a substantially larger equipment financial investment to achieve than what is typically called tube cryo treatment. I’m 100 hours in on the CryoTone 12AU7 for the ZR2, and the ECC88 for the CSP3 input spot. With the ZRock2 in the down position on the back, which I believe is just the bass boost without the treble attenuation (and is how I normally utilize the ZRock), the CryoTone tubes remain a bit too hot and spicy for my tastes. With those settings, I much prefer my Mazda and RCA NOS 12AU7’s (from Brent Jesse), and the run of the mill Russian (boo Russia) 6N1P that came with the CSP3. However, once I put the rear switch of the ZR2 in the up position and put it around 3 o’clock, the CryoTone tubes chili pepper nature was tamed in a pleasing fashion allowing me to not be so annoyed with the top end and pay more attention to the rest. And the rest has impressed me so far. I’m only a Norah Jones and Dire Straits SACD into it, but it does sound pretty good. Have yet to try non-A+ material. Shall give it another 100 hours (about a week) to reach 200 and make a final decision. And even if I decide to keep them, they will not take me off the NOS bandwagon in the least. I would keep the CryoTone just for the sake of variety, like having another phono cartridge in the drawer for something different. At 100 hours, and the ZRock2 adjustment, they have done enough to warrant another week of break in. The sound is bigger and wider, something I value. Bass has more impact than my Mazda, even on the less bass heavy ZR2 up switch setting. But without the ZR2 attenuating the treble a touch, these would be going back. Once again, another ZRock2 miracle. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/17/22 at 17:50:42 Did more listening. I think break in has not changed things that much. The change I’ve heard is mostly from monkeying with the ZRock. My NOS win handily on tone and the ability to play a wide range of audio qualities extremely well. The CryoTone have a larger soundstage and are more holographic. They have an extra gear on A+ recordings that is very impressive. And conversely are a bit more punishing of B grade recordings, but not too bad in that regard. Not DirectStream punishing. The CryoTone have more bass. I’m a bass fanatic, but at times it was even too much bass for me. Flight of the Cosmic Hippo (very deep bass) actually clipped for the first time in my music listening career and I had to dial the ZR2 back to noon. With 100 hours of break in to go, if I had to pick one set to live with, it would be my NOS recipe because of its tone and more forgiving nature. I find the notion of punishing recordings I love off putting. But that extra CryoTone gear on A to A+ recordings is very appealing. It takes those recordings to a step higher. And the increase on the holographic front is very nice. I wonder what would happen if 1960’s NOS tubes received the CryoTone treatment? Would it merge the best of the two worlds? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Ghostship on 05/17/22 at 21:16:06 Wow, you can afford to listen an average of 16 hours a day? Amazing... |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/17/22 at 21:39:42 Break in is 16 hours per day with amp off… but yes, I am wealthy enough to afford the power bill. [smiley=vrolijk_1.gif] |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Palomino on 05/18/22 at 16:38:38 Fresh out of the box, my input tube displays no edginess. Most of the additional detail is in the bass region in my system. Soundstage equal or better than the NOS I was using. I'm intrigued enough to think about buying power tubes. We'll see how they mature. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 05/18/22 at 17:51:21 With the two WE300B tubes approaching 150 hours, and the three Cryotone 6SN7 tubes nearing the 50 hour mark in my 300B amp, the resolution and detail of my system is astonishing. I’m still using four relatively new stock tubes in my CSP3, but will soon equip it with all Cryotone brand tubes. When that happens, I expect to see another step up in sound quality, though I don’t see how that is possible at this point in time. Western Electric and Cryotone for life! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/18/22 at 18:00:52 Yes, I agree that CryoTone brings additional detail and resolution. On many recordings, that represents an improvement in sound quality over NOS, and to others of lesser ilk - in my opinion - a less pleasing sound. I’ve faced this, as Steve Guttenberg calls is it, the “resolution vs euphonic” quandary in the past. A branch of audiophile ideology seeks ever more resolution as the holy grail, while others prefer more temperate ground. Just a matter of personal taste. CryoTone certainly tips the scales in the resolution direction. If that’s what you seek, buy the CryoTone without hesitation. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/18/22 at 19:24:04 We've heard a little about the 6sn7 NOS tubes being used and comparison to the cryotone. What other NOS input tubes (brand, tube type, date of mfr) are being compared to cryotone. I have liked the sound 1960s Amperex 7308 & Mullard 6922 provide to my Torii mkiv. I listen to vinyl primarily. Plenty of detail and dynamics, while maintaining tube mid-range tone. I personally dislike the Russian tubes Steve sells. They sound bland, though not edgy sound like new production can produce. Finally, what cryotone power tubes have been tried so far, besides the 300? Compared to what other tubes? Please note the year, tube type, and brand of tubes compared to the cryotone. Thanks and peace to you all |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/18/22 at 20:36:38 Interesting that people find more bass or good bass from the Cryotone tubes as I found less bass from the 6SN7, if there were more bass I would have them in use in my main system right now. I'm with John regarding tone. I used to love Amperex 7308 as the top tier, and Steve's 6N5P with just the right rectifiers are very good. There was something I was lacking with those tube types that I found in the RCA Gray Glass 6NS7. This week I compared the Cryotone to my new standards, Amperex 6085 with adapters. For my room and system they have the "extra" of the Cryotone that I like, and the right warmth and tone. For me it's all about the full complement--voltage regulator, rectifier, input, output. I'm waiting to try out Steve's output tubes with the Cryotone treatment, I'm not interested in using EL84. I also should probably note that I am tuning by "gain riding" with gain settings from my source, my preamp, my ZBIT, ZROCK2 and my Monoblocks and also with "modes" and settings on my P15 regenerator; there's a world of different ways the final outcome can be produced. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/18/22 at 22:47:02 Well said, Lon. Each of us is coming at the goal of preferred sound different ways. I am not using a preamp with my Torii mkiv. I have found the late 1960s and early 70s Russian 6L6 equivalents, with SED 5U4g rectifiers to sync well with the 7308/6922 tube types. I'm a sucker for tube warmth with clarity. Plus, I'm using a vinyl rig. Does anyone have a recommendation for a dac in the $200-300 range? I apologize for mixing topics. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Kirk on 05/19/22 at 01:07:48 Just popped in a Wathen ECC88 in my UFO2. It's all true what they say about these tubes. Love it. Old familiar music has more detail and depth. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 05/19/22 at 02:43:48 Kirk, Thanks for the feedback! Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by funch on 05/20/22 at 06:07:28 I see that the 6P15P tubes are on their site now. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Bilyeaux on 05/20/22 at 12:48:52 Kirk I am pretty green on tubes. My UFO2 is breaking in, about 600 hours now. This tube you poped in is the input single tube? Thxs Randall |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/20/22 at 13:19:50 Yes, they are now offering the power tubes sourced from Steve. https://www.wathenspeakers.com/store/p58/6P15P-WC.html Even though I'm disappointed with the 6SN7 I bought from them and may sell them, these 6P15P-EV tubes are a known and long time used tube for me--I ordered a pair, and I hope the Cryotone process will improve them--they cost twice what they do from Steve. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 05/20/22 at 15:40:05 Quote:
Try 4 times as much - Steve's are $60 a pair - Cryotone's are $119 each, if i'm reading it correctly. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/20/22 at 15:57:10 Well, you're right, I just looked at my last invoice which was for 2 pair for 109 total, I was thinking it was for only 1 pair. If I get three years or so out of a pair and they sound better it will be worth it. (I get about a year out of a pair previously these last few years). |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/20/22 at 17:59:39 Lon, according to Don, he will allow you to return any tubes you don’t like for refund or exchange. That’s what he offered me over the phone. I’m at about 180 hours of break in. As a reminder, my chain goes: Marantz SACD 30n —> ZR2 —> CSP3 —> Marantz Model 30 (in power amp mode) I bought a 12AU7 for the ZR2, and a ECC88 for the CSP3. I’ve concluded that two JJ CryoTone’s are too spicy for my system, both on top and down low. Keep in mind I have lots of solid state bass to begin with. The ZR2 on the up setting adds too much bass in order to attenuate the treble which leads to an odd, unnatural mix at times. And the ZR2 down switch is just too much heat. Last night using SACDs of “Midnight Blue” and the Dire Straits first album, I found a very nice tonal balance using a 1960’s RCA 12AU7 in the ZR2, and the CryoTone ECC88 in the CSP3 input tube spot. The RCA provided plenty of rich bass without being too much, and also naturally cooled down the CryoTone. The result was nice warm NOS tone with some of the DirectStream like detail of the CryoTone. And all that happened with the ZR2 rear switch down, which is no treble attenuation. My theory is that the transparent nature of the CryoTone allowed yet more of the fabulous upstream RCA tone to shine. At least on the A+ recordings. Tonight I’ll see how it fares with my more terrestrial recordings. I’m inclined at this point to return at least the 12AU7 as I don’t see it unseating my NOS in the ZR2. But I’m very hopeful about keeping the CryoTone ECC88 in the CSP3 as I think it’s an upgrade over the stock Russians. Should know for sure by Monday. Maybe exchanging it for the 6N1P would be wise? I wonder if the underlying JJ is not best for me? Perhaps Steve’s tubes CryoToned would be better? Not sure I can handle another 200 hour break in regimen! I think what we read on the forum about specific tubes only has limited value because our systems and tastes vary so much. It’s a bit like us all cooking a curry and sharing precisely how much of which spice we added. But given Don will accept returns or exchanges, we have nothing to lose in giving CryoTone a try. It’s all about how you like your curry. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/20/22 at 19:55:04 Lon, You're only getting one year of use out of an input tube. How many hours per day do you listen to your system? Do you leave your system on throughout the day even if not listening to it? Dancingsea, what input tubes have you tried besides Steve's Russian? Peace |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/20/22 at 19:58:28 I would say my Monoblocks are on about 30 to 40 hours a week. I could get more months out of them and used to, but they clearly start to decline in sonic quality after about a year's use so I now compare them to new broken in tubes after about 11 months and they usually are found lacking in overall balance and replaced between 11 and 13 months. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/20/22 at 20:13:54 John, I'm not a "return things" guy unless things are clearly defective. I'll keep these and play with them especially when the new 6P15P-CW tubes arrive, and then if they still are lower tier tubes for me I'll sell them at a discounted price to someone who may want to try them in their own system. I have no doubt someone else will really like them as I seem to think almost everyone likes a brighter presentation than I do, my high end hearing is still good and one audiologist suggested I may have a condition where my ears overreact to higher frequency sound when I talked to him about audio playback. I've never pursued this further but the ZROCK2 has been a godsend for me, as well as the "Lon" treble cut circuit. ;) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/20/22 at 20:40:08 Safebelayer - I’ve only had the CSP3 for about 2 months, so I’ve only experienced Steve’s stock Russian and the JJ CryoTone. My next experiment will likely be with Mullard NOS. Lon, please do tell, what is the Lon Treble Cut Circuit? I wore my Decware one year club T-shirt to Whole Foods and Costco. With the increase in orders I thought surely a fellow Decware person would come and say high. But alas, no one batted an eye lash… [smiley=cool.gif] |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/20/22 at 20:43:11 That's a Treble Cut Circuit that is available for amps, shunted some high frequency signal to ground so it was a tone control outside of the signal path; came stock with some Torii models and I may be the only one who had it added to SE84UFO3 Monoblocks. Steve joked that it should be called the "Lon Treble Cut Circuit" because I seem to be the only one who has requested it to be added to amps and talk about it. (This was in response to someone suggesting an amp be named after me which I thought was ridiculous, Steve turned that on its head pretty cleverly I think). |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/20/22 at 21:29:38 The Decware “Lon Amp” would surely have a full fledged ZRock baked right in! Oops, here we go again… ;D |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/20/22 at 21:57:02 Let's not go there. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/20/22 at 22:12:54 DS, I highly recommend the amperex 7308 as well as 60s Mullard 6922. Depending on your warmth vs resolution preference, others love Siemens and Telefunken. I have not enjoyed any European tubes made from the 70s or newer. Ymmv. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/20/22 at 23:18:04 Safebelayer - thank you, I shall add those to the top of the list to explore. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/21/22 at 22:00:18 Out of curiosity, in terms of the health of the CSP3’s tube sockets, how often is it ok to change tubes? Can this be done often, even daily? Or is tube rolling meant to be done periodically? I ask because the cryotone ECC88 is shaping up to be an A+ SACD specialist in my sonic world. It lacks the old school warmth to be my everyday tube. But I don’t want to traumatize the CSP3’s tube sockets by regularly switching in the cryotone just for those rarified SACDs. Guidance appreciated. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/22/22 at 01:09:25 Good idea Lin, thanks. I’m new to the CSP3, do seasoned owners normally use a socket saver? I’m not clear how big of an issue socket wear is. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/22/22 at 01:40:31 Socket savers. CAUTION! Try listening to a tube with and without the socket saver. I have found they can alter the sound...not always, but sometimes. Good luck. Peace |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 05/22/22 at 01:59:09 The socket savers I’ve tried haven’t worked very well for me. The tubes fit so tight in it, that instead of being able to get the tube out of the socket saver, the whole tube and socket saver want to come out of the socket. Is there something I’m missing, or can some recommend a saver brand that might work better? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/22/22 at 02:22:32 The socket saver on the Tube Depot link costs $2.49 which does not inspire confidence. Perhaps if we Cryo treat it things will improve…. :-/ |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/22/22 at 02:36:43 Geno: The tubes fit so tight in it, that instead of being able to get the tube out of the socket saver, the whole tube and socket saver want to come out of the socket. Facts. DS, I would recommend not changing the tube(s) daily. Practically speaking, it takes 20-50 hours to know if a tube will work well. As you can now tell, I don't buy into the 100 hours of break-in. Once you find some tubes you really like, it is time to focus on enjoying music. I'm encouraging you to not chase the perfect tube or, even worse, tube allotment. You'll spend tons of money and time and miss out lots of great tunes. Peace |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Ghostship on 05/22/22 at 02:41:18 Purchase socket savers in pairs at least. They should be tight when you get them. You prepare them for use by plugging and unplugging them into one another, roughly ten times each should work. Then, start plugging tubes into them. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/22/22 at 04:20:54 Safebelayer wrote: Quote:
Yes, that’s the plan. I’m just trying to find a way to make the CryoTone JJ ECC88 work for me. As mentioned, they sound great on my A+ audiophile recordings. My hope was I could just pop them in whenever I listen to those - like adjusting a DAC filter. But if I’d have to leave them in for weeks at a time, then I’m not so sure. I have a solid state power amp and rely upon the CSP3/ ZR2 to provide nourishing warmth. The CryoTone are very audiophile and transparent, which has its place for sure - they’re great tubes for that - but perhaps not what’s right for my euphonic gumbo. I’m thinking the Amperex and Mullard will be better suited for me. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/22/22 at 18:49:22 Anywho, here's the rub. Like Lon, I find the JJ Cryotone to have too much treble at times. The ZRock2 can attenuate the treble, but cannot do so independently from increasing the bass. The result is getting the treble cooled down often, in my system, leads to too much bass. And for that reason I will return them and wait to read the reports of how Steve's tubes sound after the CryoTone treatment - which essentially means waiting to see what Lon says. I'm curious if the spiciness is from the JJ foundation, or from the CryoTone treatment itself. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/22/22 at 21:27:23 Lon, I'm following up on the discussion of buying new input tubes every year after 1500-2000 hours of use (30-40 per week) That's the premise. I use 6922 type tubes that are rated up to 10,000 hours. I recognize the tube is degrading throughout its usable life. Have you tested your one year old tubes? If so, how did they test compared to new? Which tubes have you used and how did those tubes hold up? I ask these questions to further my understanding of tube life and utility. If anyone else wants to contribute to this discussion, please do. If Steve would add his understanding to this, would be greatly appreciated. I might add that stating one tube is better than another is frought with fragility. All ears aren't created equally. Shape, acuity, and environment are always different. Stereo components are also unequal. No two components are identical in construction. Micro differences in wire length and thickness. Etc, etc, etc. Therefore, any given tube type and brand will be affected. I might have a high frequency hearing deficiency, which has me liking tubes that particularly emphasize such. Just to be clear, hearing deficiencies occur in multiple ways. It isn't just high, mid or low frequency deficits. People suffer different effects from any specific type of hearing loss. My point to this discourse is that some, including Steve and his being "uniquely able" to make the claim cryotone are the best tubes, will claim a best tube, but it's only best to them. Lon, Will and myself each like different tubes in their respective amps. Each of us have had the Torii. We do not have the same cables, speakers, front end, software (streamed signal, cd, vinyl), rooms, room treatments or lack thereof, so on and so forth. Steve has an opinion and he has probably acknowledged it is just his opinion, when it comes to what sounds best. Enough said. Peace |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/22/22 at 21:56:41 Well said Safebelayer. It’s worth noting that beyond sound quality, Steve has an additional motivation that is less directly pressing to Decware customers seeking to tube roll. The same motivation that brought about the creation of CryoTone. Namely a reliable supply of sonically consistent, durable, and readily available tubes. I’m sure the Russian sanction situation has only furthered that concern given Russia and China’s tenuous relationship to the western world, and made CryoTone that much more appealing. I’m unclear why the USA government has not decided to invest the same $52B they have into domestic chip production into USA based tube manufacturing. That’s a head scratcher… ::) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/22/22 at 22:38:30 SB, I was referring solely to the output tubes in my Monoblocks and my Torri which have been the tubes purchased from Steve that he selects, tests and matches. They are not rated for 10,000 hours like many input tubes are. Far less. From using these for a large part of more than two decades of Decware amp usage I have learned that though I can keep using them longer, they start to decay from their optimum in my systems after about a year's use. In the past I have not clearly realized that and after about a year I found myself making adjustments here and there to get optimal sound. A few years ago I did realize that the tubes were beginning to decay after about a year and began doing what Steve has suggested as a method: replacing them with new tubes and seeing if there was a significant difference. I found that after about 12 or 13 months there was a significant difference that showed the older power tubes were beginning to decline in both frequency extremes and beginning to be curtailed in dynamics. So when they get to that point I replace them. Input tubes in general I find that I get quite longer life out of, some four or five years, as a few of the components such as the ZROCK2 don't "push" the tube hard in their circuits. That is different than preferring the sound of one tube or tube type over another as there are so many factors involved in that such as isolation components, power treatment, cabling, and of course the rooms themselves and the tastes of the owners. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/22/22 at 23:29:31 Lon, thank you for the clarification. The context of power tubes in the previous entries was not clear to me. I do not listen to my system near as much as you do yours. I don't think I'd be able to tell any difference. Annual purchase of power tubes, even just the 4 I would buying, adds up. It makes sense to try to find a quality and durable tube. DancingSea: "’I'm unclear why the USA government has not decided to invest the same $52B they have into domestic chip production into USA based tube manufacturing. That’s a head scratcher…" Russia and China still use tubes for industrial purposes. Up until very recently, maybe they still do, Russia used tubes in their space program (space station, ground control, and rockets). The USA does not. Why would they invest $52 billion? I know we're a critical demographic for national infrastructure, but the government doesn't recognize the need for excellence in sound staging, tone, and pretty lights. Maybe we could get a grant thru the arts foundation 🤪 By the way, kudos to everyone who have found the cryotone tubes to be outstanding in their systems. Please report back when they start wearing out or failing. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Archie on 05/22/22 at 23:50:47 Quote:
Back when working in the Star Wars Program in the 80s I remember laughing at how the Russians still used vacuum tubes until it was pointed out that they are EMP resistant. Nuclear bombs produce EMP pulses that would take out our entire satellite network while theirs still functioned. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/23/22 at 00:23:03 Archie, did you get to meet Obi-Wan Kenobi during your work on Star Wars? Pixar is a current customer of CryoTone thus it’s within the realm of possibility that Industrial Light & Magic had tubes in their gear. Safebelayer - oh, I’m just playing around by imagining what would happen if audiophile logic and priorities were applied to geopolitics… and giggling over the absurdities that would follow… In other news today, the ruling Audiophile Party has decided to devote the entire 3 trillion dollar budget to speaker cables…. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Archie on 05/23/22 at 01:17:42 Quote:
While there were many brilliant and capable people involved, watching how the government threw away money took the wind out of my young engineer sails. I'm much more fulfilled remolding people's kitchens. :P Give the government 3 trillion and they might produce a cable that's not worse than Radio Shack. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by piezoman on 05/23/22 at 01:24:52 Quote:
God damn right. To quote the great Ronald Reagan: Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. The nine most terrifying words in the English language are "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help." |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/23/22 at 01:39:49 Code:
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Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/23/22 at 05:28:50 Brad wrote: Quote:
Yes, especially when the government is owned by corporations. Oh, how I miss the Bronze Age when simply sacrificing one of the kids fixed everything… such days of innocence… Man has been screwing over his neighbor for a very, very long time. For millions of years we were just a mid level predator. We ate bunnies and were eaten by lions. One day our brain got too big for our britches and we wake up to this remarkable mess of our own creation. But by God, those lions ain't eating us anymore! So that’s a positive. Instead we wait hand and foot on little mini lions and wolves who we rely upon for emotional support. At least we have our stereos to anesthetize us. ::) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by piezoman on 05/23/22 at 21:46:38 safebelayer wrote: Quote:
Jon, I forgot to reply to this. Thanks for asking. The CSP3 with Jupiter beeswax signal cap upgrade has been well. But it needs a major upgrade from there, after hearing the Steve's fully decked 25th Anniversary Edition that I have since sold [no headphone jack] and the astonishing sonics it provided, the CSP3 I have now is wanting in comparison [thanks though for the 4 pin mini-XLR jack, which I will use for my recent acquisition of the Audeze LCD-4].....so a forum member has kindly provided me a plan to address this glaring shortcoming, his version of Steve's full 25th anniversary mods & more. I have all the parts ($300 in an array of Miflex PIO and Cu-paper caps and a small slew of much better resistors, plus those small VR tubes), which will save $300 in labor. I should have attacked this some time ago, and I need to get on it before the much anticipated Torii MK 5 arrives in about 3-4 months. Once I get done, the CSP3 should be at least as good, likely even better than Steve's outstanding 25th Anniversary Edition. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/26/22 at 19:06:36 Don was very gracious about the return. Easy breezy. Fantastic customer service. I’m working with Brent Jessee for alternatives. He likes Amperex over Mullard. The 7308 are super expensive. He suggested Bugle Boy 6DJ8 from the 1950s. Do you guys have thoughts on the famed Bugle Boy? I’ll get a 1960s Mullard as well. In any case, have ordered both from Brent. I like that he's very free with offering advice while Upscale is tight lipped. Have also learned that if I make a political response to Brad that I can throw him off my tracks by then talking like a lunatic homeless person... :D |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by piezoman on 05/26/22 at 20:14:25 Good to hear you’re being taken care of. If I met K. Deal, I’d probably piss all over him. Ha. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/26/22 at 20:31:54 Haha. Kevin is such a polarizing character. I totally get why people dislike him, but he has always been good to me over the past 20 years. I find him to be a hoot even though he frequently steps in it. I guess that's part of the entertainment value.... the stepping in it.... |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 05/26/22 at 22:33:22 I spent many happy years listening to Amperex 7308. Amperex made in Holland in general have a "house sound" I really like. I'm going to recommend a cheap tube to try that you can find on eBay: 6CG7. It was mentioned here and I dug around and had a few pair and re-evaluated them, favorably. Really nice tone. Both my pairs are RCA, one black plate, one clear top. Both have slight differences but I'd be happy with either. My other favorite, that keeps going into my Monoblocks, are Ameperex 6085 with converter bases. Lots of body, lots of the good tone. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 05/26/22 at 22:37:50 DS, I am not a fan of the bugle boy tubes. They're not bad, just not notable....to me. What's your budget per tube? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 05/26/22 at 23:02:36 Thanks Lon, I'll definitely check those out. Inexpensive calls to me like a siren on the shore. Safebelayer (please do elaborate on the meaning of your handle!) - you know, what happened is I wrote to Brent Jessee and explained my CryoTone experience. What I liked, and what I didn't like (too much treble), and asked which tube he recommended as a cure. He suggested the Amperex Bugleboy 6DJ8 that were made early on in Holland for Tektronix at $80 per tube. The CSP3 is my first tube preamp/ amp, so I have no experience in discerning his extensive list of tubes. I just ask and let him decide as he's the expert. He thought Amperex in general performs better with a wide variety of music than Mullard. But I've been keen to try a Mullard just because I like the YouTube video about their factory, so he suggested a 1960's 6922 that were made in England for other brands at $115 per tube. I get a kick out of the tube backstories. The notion that a little glass bulb from 70 years ago that was intended for industrial purposes could be relevant in today's audio awakens my inner Antiques Roadshow. That's the tube budget for now! I'll see where that gets me and in a few months perhaps seek out an Amperex 7308 when the price reaches $10K. Also want to see how a different rectifier tube effects things. With my Marantz in power amp only mode and fed by the ZRock2 (Mazda 12AU7 - set in B mode) and the stock CSP3 Russian 6N1P, I had achieved such a great sound. Since then I tried the CryoTone, and also switched the Marantz to integrated mode, all of which has left me thoroughly confused in a maze of which switch was which way, huh?! Who’s on first? I'm certain that the tubes only represent at most 50% of my satisfaction level. The other 50% is left to a wild crazy monkey who loves bananas one day, and can't stand bananas the next! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by piezoman on 05/26/22 at 23:24:50 Quote:
To me, that's the beauty of tubes that kicks the absolute living crap outta SS. I will never see another SS amp for the rest of my life. Maybe one exception someday for the hell of it, the original Threshold Stasis SA-3. That was the ONLY solid state amp ever to really blow my mind.....as monoblocks paired with the original Apogee Caliper speakers, that sound is something that has haunted me for 30 years. I STILL haven't heard anything that comes remotely close. Damn my audio friend at the time that turned me onto to those, ruined my life, LOL The more stages available for tuning and gain the better [well, up to a point]. Become one with the complexity of your beloved equipment, simple is for simps. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/01/22 at 13:44:42 Right now I'm listening to the newly released 6P15-EV from Cryotone. When I first put them in yesterday I thought they were really transformed. . . the percussive sound of Bill Evans' piano were softer and there seemed a bit more depth to the soundstage. Putting about ten hours on them and listening to them today after a short listen to a well-seasoned pair of the same tubes from Steve. . . they don't sound as different. Perhaps a bit more depth to the sound, perhaps a slightly sweeter high end. . . but I could honestly be imagining that. This is a tube I have been using for a number of years so unlike the 6SN7s that I bought earlier I KNOW what the tube sounds like pre-treatment. So now the real test is longevity. If I can get three years out of this pair, three times the length I generally get, then they will have paid for themselves. We'll see. That's a long way off. . . I might be listening to a 300B Sarah then! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/01/22 at 14:51:11 Lon, You only get one year out of an input tube. That's a very low number of hours. Even at that, what's the cost of the Decware Russian import compared to the cryotone? I'm guessing it's a third of the price or even less. These cryotone tubes are not proving to be any sort of holy grail tube. Simply, personal preference, nothing more. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/01/22 at 15:11:25 I get far more than a year out of an input tube. But I find that after about a year the output tubes start to be "less than optimal." I can still use them, and I can tweak other aspects of the system to sort of make up for the start of their decline, but I replace them now--from Steve they were about a third the price than these from Wathen. (Yes you can get them far cheaper than that elsewhere but it's painfully obvious to me that Steve's selection, testing and matching give one reliable, superior sounding tubes). So yes, I'm beginning to suspect these tubes may have a 5 percent or more "better sound" but the real proof of the pudding is their longevity. If I get three years out of them they are worth the cost, especially as I suspect that Steve's prices and the prices of other vendors will increase over that time. I don't regret trying them out. I inquired of Wathen whether they will offer voltage regulation tubes--if they can offer US tubes of these nature and their process really does work as far as a long lasting tube, those would be near lifetime purchases! (VR tubes last a long long time). I'll agree that sonically so far I haven't found these to be "holy grail" or "holy grail KILLER" tubes, but all systems are different, and we hear things differently too--I don't doubt that they are so for some. I think if they were to cryo treat some of my favorite tubes I might invest more (these 6P15-EV sourced from Steve ARE my favorite output tubes for my amps). But JJ tubes . . . not favorites of mine. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 06/01/22 at 20:50:42 The following emails have come in today - regarding these tubes Quote:
and this one Quote:
This has been my experience as well, smooth as a babies ass with great detail. Keep in mind that everyone has different systems and there are many reasons for claiming the stuff is bright. For one, Lon is allergic to highs. All of his gear has custom tone controls to reduce highs. Another example that can cause this to happen when comparing to a favorite NOS tube, is that as tubes age they soften. As they soften, systems get voiced with brighter cables, DACs, speakers, or other tubes that are brighter to balance it. Then when the NOS tube that is soft sounding is "updated" with something fresh, the system sounds bright. This is not referring to you, so no need to responsd whoever you are. No need to defend your NOS tube choices, I am putting this out there as a common hypothetical situation that can cause these results. I'm sure Don has no issues with taking a tube back if you don't like it, you don't need a reason. The beauty of raw uncensored feedback in this forum is to show you what can happen to You. It's not a guaranteed thing for every system. -Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/01/22 at 22:14:27 Wow, I talk honestly and it seems to be perceived as a negative thing for the company. "My followers". . . I don't have any, what's up with that? Anyway, all I have ever said is that they are bright, and to me the one pair that I have are in comparison to all the other tubes I compared them to (and no it's not just because of "softened NOS tubes" being replaced, I compared them to a lot of different new production and unused NOS tubes and they were bright in comparison.) Actually in my main system only my mono blocks have "treble controls" and of course there's the ZROCK2. And the other person who has found his Cryotone tubes bright is certainly not one of my "followers" ;) I'm glad that others find them so great, honestly I am, and I wish I liked the pair I had bought more. I encourage anyone to try them out. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 06/01/22 at 22:43:33 Quote:
Anyone who dominates a public forum (see post counts) is going to have followers and you actually do have followers, many who have brought you up in phone calls with me - always in a positive manner - so I would say you have likely 1000's of people who follow your posts. Softened NOS comments were not pertaining to you, you are a unique case that even if something is not bright, you think it is bright. Evidence of that is treble controls that you can't live without on every amp and no one else with Decware gear (tens of thousands so far) don't need, don't want and have no use for. This simply says you have sensitive hearing in the high end and a low tolerance for less than perfect sound in those regions. This is no doubt why you have fallen so deeply into the hobby -- because you can hear more than most -- and why your opinion here is so well respected. Because of the sensitivity to top end you hear midrange with far more depth. This is why your opinion is valuable. But when it comes to saying something is brighter than something else to a reader like Don who doesn't know you, it is pretty easy to understand his reaction and he isn't wrong, just making an observation like you were. Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/01/22 at 22:58:36 Okay. I still think this pair IS brighter than neutral. The 6P15-EV I received yesterday are not, they sound like your tubes, as they are. Many LIKE the sort of tonal presentation of these 6SN7-WC--I struggle to make them work in my main system. By the way I don't have tone controls on my Taboo Mk IV. I get by. ;) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by effluviography on 06/02/22 at 01:10:56 All hail Lon! What is thy bidding, my master... ;D |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/02/22 at 01:34:40 LOL ;D |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Dana on 06/02/22 at 01:58:47 Count me in (except for the smart phone thing) ![]() |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/02/22 at 07:18:12 Steve: But when it comes to saying something is brighter than something else to a reader like Don who doesn't know you, it is pretty easy to understand his reaction and he isn't wrong, just making an observation like you were. I'm no follower of Lon's, other than to read his comments in threads I have interest. He makes statements about his experiences and makes it darn clear that it's his experience. Steve, maybe your advice to Lon is good advice for all commenting here, including the thread starter and company owner. Many of us have decades of experience with tubes. Many tube dealers have tested thousands of tubes over many years. No one is uniquely qualified to make an edict on tube sound quality. Each of us have distinctly different ears and auditory processes. So, when the Decware owner says a tube is the holy grail of tubes, new and old production, that they're smooth as a babies butt, it holds the same weight as Lon, other dealers, other tube gear owners, etc. It's a simple, personal opinion which is like any other opinion, SUBJECTIVE. Apparently, for goodness sake, not as many of us drink the Decware kool-aid as it seemed. In addition, too bad for cryotone that their tubes are being scrutinized. That's life. Is it too much to ask to set egos aside? Offer up an opinion. Temper it with caution. Don't criticize another for a different opinion. Be willing to hear another's perspective. Ask questions about their experience. Maybe something can be learned or considered. Well, here's hoping. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/02/22 at 13:43:17 SB, I definitely see your point. I also see that Steve is a business owner and is also allowed to be enthusiastic about his opinion of tubes that he feels are the best choice for his components, and he is in a position to try them across the product line. That is what I see here: enthusiasm for a product he has investigated and found works very well for his products, mixed in with a bit of sales technique. When I'm enthusiastic about something my perspective is a bit changed and my words a bit more vibrant. That is what I see here. I agree that we're all hearing differently in differing rooms and with different equipment and that is a great leveling field that grants validity to any assessment for that particular musical environment. And persons in business need to sell things so enthusiastic endorsements and shall we say "excited" sales approaches are to be expected. The good thing here is that it seems that there is an opportunity with these tubes to try and return if you don't like them. That's not always the case, and that makes being influenced by enthusiasm and excitement less of a financial risk than in many other instances. . . . |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 06/02/22 at 14:23:25 Quote:
On one level that is inarguable to the point where it goes without saying. Our reaction to sound is a personal opinion. A lot of us like different tubes, just as we like different amps and different speakers and different music. But on another level we're all here because we like the gear Steve designed to his criterion and his taste so I would say his opinion does have a special authority. That being said I have no problem forming my own opinion and I'm in no hurry to spend several hundreds of dollars on cryotone tubes. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by kulafu on 06/02/22 at 15:53:21 As a new "tuber", this forum as helped me tremendously in this audio adventure..Everyone has their opinion based on their experiences and varied audio interpretation. Nonetheless, it is ultimately each individual's choice of tubes, ICs, power cables, amps, preamps, speakers, acoustic treatments based on what the forum members have or will continue to provide. I for one am thankful to everyone willing and able to lend advice and opinions. As for me, my ears and wallet love some Cryotones...And for the moment, my search for other tubes has taken a "strategic" pause. Just tubes..... Bob PS. If I were to grade myself from K to 12, college....I am at Grade 2 in level of knowledge and expertise in this forum..... |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/02/22 at 19:12:09 Lon, kulafu, CAJames, Very nice comments; kind and informative. Kulafu, welcome to the land of tubes. It's an awesome place to be, content with your tube complement. James, I agree with your statement about why we're here and independent choices based on what we individually hear. I'll pm you later. Lon, as always you express your opinion with gentleness and respect. That is why you have many that look for your opinion on a variety of topics. First class. Steve's enthusiasm and excitement for cryotone tubes is welcomed, for sure. The ability to return the tubes is nice as well, though not unheard of in the industry, but still a nice perk for expensive, new production, tubes. His actions to defend a non-affiliated company from opinions of others, notably yours, is over the top in my opinion. He knows his equipment to the same degree I know mine. Here's the formula: one's ears, room, system configuration, musical tastes, front end preference, atmospheric environment, and experiences. I would wager that many of us spend as much time with our gear, or more, than he has with our particular components. And, we've spent more time with various tube complements. Credibility is based on specific and general experience. He has neither with my ears, room, etc. In my opinion, he historically sells his components with mediocre tubes. Damn near everyone changes the tubes, with the exception of the vr tubes, though many change those too. I changed the tubes because I found them to produce veiled, sterile sound, and many were low quality...not all. This doesn't make him unique in the industry, others do the same. In fact, he does offer options. His replacement tubes are notably higher priced than some dealers, whom we patron with great success. Yes, I like the amp I own (Torii mkiv). Do I think it's the best I've ever heard? No I do not. Is it better than most if not all at the price point? I think it is. Do I like his other products? I have not been inclined to buy them for various reasons, most of which surrounds the finicky nature of getting them to behave well with each other as reported by many in the forum threads. So, yes, Steve is the designer of the product I really enjoy. It's very good, but not without its faults... No need to mention them here. I appreciate his recommendations, otherwise I wouldn't be on this thread. I do not appreciate him making a recommendation and then getting butt-hurt because others don't agree, resulting in some tension with the (non?) affiliate, cryotone. Specifically, you and others expressed your opinions objectively and respectfully. He then called into question your ability to express a fair opinion. That's an unprofessional action at best. I'm hoping he steps back and considers the tenor of this thread, his actions, and our responses. Maybe then, there will an apology (without excuses), owning his actions. It's easy and it gains credibility as it shows growth. Being wrong is not a sign of failure. Not recognizing it is a sign of stuckness. Thoughts? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/02/22 at 19:29:46 I don't quite see things the same way in regards to his comments to me. But let me suggest this rock and a hard place situation that Steve has faced since the company began: he began producing tube gear at a time when the US was not producing any tubes, and the freshly independent Easter European factories were just getting their own production and distribution in motion, and Russian military surplus was what was mostly coming out of Russia, though a few Russian companies were distributing tubes to the rest of the world, some of which ended up being owned by US companies I believe. Anyway--he did not have many choices to supply with his components and he did not want to supply excellent NOS tubes that the new owner would then have to struggle to re-tube--he wanted to offer a complement that he could replicate and that would serve as a base line for each component across ownerships. He has had to shift his choices over the years but he has been able to at least provide tubes the owner could replenish when needed without a herculean effort (which would not be the case with excellent NOS tubes). Now we have a war in Ukraine that if it has not led to a cessation of distribution from that part of the world to ours has at least caused a halt to the flow due to hoarding and supply chain issues. And then lo and behold Steve discovers a US company that is cryo treating Eastern European tubes that they seem to be able to offer regularly that he thinks sound great in his components. He's excited by their sound and by the fact that he has a US supplier that he can work with, he communicates with them, and works out a beneficial arrangement. I can imagine a sense of relief and hope this provides. And can imagine an excitement. I have to say that the Cryotone treated output tubes from Steve are shaping up to be a bit better than the un-treated and if the longevity claimed is true will at least be cost-effective in the long run. And I'm trying the input tubes again with different voltage regulation tubes and rectifiers with these new output tubes and I've tamed some of the brightness that caused me to pull these out repeatedly before. I'm giving them another chance because there ARE qualities of these tubes that are extra-ordinary. It's not easy to be a small company and flourish. Decware is managing these changes probably better than another management might. I've cut them slack in certain ways, I've enjoyed their products for over two decades and am excited about another on the horizon I'm in the queue for--that I can use American tubes with. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/02/22 at 19:59:21 Good points Lon and well stated. I agree with your statement that we see things differently. Rude behavior is unjustified in my opinion, period. I can and do easily acknowledge Steve's quality designs and gear. His actions toward you, allegiance with cryotone, and association with Kevin Deal are not show stoppers, but they are worth noting and not giving him excuses. Btw, cryotone tubes are not American. Just because I do a tune-up on my Toyota, doesn't mean it's American made. Steve said the following: "The most fascinating part is that if you grade tubes and pick the good ones and Cryo treat each one with it's own recipe, like these guys do, then it doesn't matter the brand, how much it cost, if it was NOS from the Blackburn plant or exotic asian tubes for giant money, they will not sound better. They can't. The Cryo process is real. It molecularly changes things. You can hear it." What does this mean? Is Steve saying that the cryo process makes all tubes equal? If I follow the context of the statement, that's exactly what he's implying, at the very least. Cryo doesn't change one metal into another, thickness into thin or conversely, construction quality, glass shape and quality, etc. The results of scientific experiments and evaluation of cryoed tubes do not support this statement. I've asked Steve to explain this very notable and definitive statement. Would the answer be helpful to those wanting to know more about tubes and their functionality? I think so. I know he's busy, but no answer. But when a Decware member with a large following gives a different, if not less than positive, impression of his recommended tube altering company's product, that he addresses. By impugning your opinion and credibility...though he deftly states it as if complimenting your sensitive hearing ability. Lon, in case you haven't noticed, I'm on your side. Like I mentioned in my previous post, if Steve apologized for taking acception to your valid personal opinion, this thread wouldn't exist. But that hasn't happened. Why not? He's obviously paying attention to what's being said or maybe he only pays attention to what his friend, Mr. Thomas, says. I'm done with this thread. And everyone said, "good riddance." 🤣🤣🤣 |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/02/22 at 20:20:15 I didn't say that Cryotone was using American tubes, I said they were using Eastern European tubes. As many other companies do: Sovtek, Mullard, Tung-Sol, all these "reissue brands" are I think owned by US companies using European tubes. (In my final paragraph when referring to US tubes I was referring to being able to use Western Electric tubes in the Sarah amp). I agree that cryo treatment won't make a JJ tube sound like a true Telefunken NOS etc. Cryo treatment doesn't have those magic abilities. I think the description could have been more accurately written to indicate that the treatment will improve the sound and longevity of tubes putting them on a higher plane such as the best NOS tubes. That would be more accurate and defensible. To be honest I too don't agree with his "it doesn't matter" statement--I can only imagine how one of the best NOS tubes I use would sound with the sort of careful "recipe" of treatment. But I know how expensive that would be, and what a challenge for Cryotone to have a stock to experiment with and "waste" some. Again, I don't see Steve's comments about my own comments in the same way, but you're "out" of the thread so no reason to go into that. ;) I'm used to how Steve thinks and writes after reading his words since '97. And I'm used to his infrequent trips into the forum and missing questions and comments. Perhaps that is why my reactions are dissimilar. We agree in large part and are on the same team. I'd like to see Decware grow gracefully and see Steve be able to continue to pursue his real passion: exploring the sonic possibilities of tube circuits and always improving via experimentation and trial and error. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Dana on 06/02/22 at 20:45:39 Just to make a useless point Toyota tops the list as the Most American Made Car Toyota beats Ford and other competitors as the most American made car https://www.cavatoyota.com/blog/toyota-tops-the-list-as-the-most-american-made-car/ It was on the internet so it must be true. It's been my VERY limited experience that synergy is really important. When changing the regulator the whole sound signature changes and not always to the better. The fun part is now finding the right combination and bias setting to give them the signature you prefer. I would like to know what the complete tube compliment Steve was using when he found the magic in these tubes? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by acousticsguru on 06/02/22 at 20:51:55 I've been reading this thread with great interest. I'm with Lon (I'm paraphrasing now, so if this comes across as what I think rather than him, that's fine with me) in that if cryo-treatment works, all it can do is to (hopefully) turn a tube into a cleaner version of itself. Philosophically speaking, cryo-treatment may serve as an equalizer to some extent in that ideally, the treatment may get rid of resonances/distortion/harmonics (but then, that's the aspect Steve mentions in the video: lower distortion may not be preferable in everyone's book when "better" sound is the equivalent of a less "tubey" sound). Having said all this, it makes sense to want to cryo-treat a tube whose sound one likes versus one whose sound one doesn't like. For this reason, I'm primarily tempted to try a pair of cryoed (is that terminologically correct in English?) 6P15P-ER and, if it becomes available, 6N1P-EV. Oh and Lon, of course you have at least one follower! ;) Greetings from Switzerland, David. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Ghostship on 06/02/22 at 22:26:29 Dana, you do realize Toyota has been manufacturing vehicles in this country for decades, right? Toyota Sienna (Princeton, Indiana) Toyota Sequoia (Princeton, Indiana) Toyota Highlander (Princeton, Indiana) Toyota RAV4 Hybrid (Georgetown, Kentucky) Toyota Camry (Georgetown, Kentucky) Toyota Avalon (Georgetown, Kentucky) Toyota Tacoma (San Antonio, Texas) Toyota Tundra (San Antonio, Texas) Toyota Corolla (Blue Springs, Mississippi), Not to mention plants in Alabama, Missouri, Tennessee and Virginia? Steve isn't "defending" anyone. He was kindly and diplomatically stating that if your system sounds like shit you have no business posting a negative opinion of a tube on the internet. I don't know why Lon was singled out. There was also DancingSea who felt so compelled to be a Cryotone naysayer that he only had 4 hours of break-in on his tubes before decrying them as too "aggressive and edgy". When advised to allow them 200 hours of breaking he waited 10 days then again claimed they were "too hot and spicy" and returned them. What he should have said was he has a combination of room, speakers and class D amp that makes his system so bright that he requires a ZRock and warm, frequency-damped tubes in his preamp to attenuate the treble in order to enjoy the sound of his system. Then, when using a high-quality full-spectrum tube like the Cryotone, he doesn't like the sound of his system, and thus has absolutely no business commenting on the sound quality of Cryotone tubes. Just because someone posts on this forum claiming they do not appreciate how a tube makes their system sound does NOT mean you should conclude those tubes are in any way bad or wouldn't sound amazing in YOUR system. Remember that every two years during the Winter Olympics fat drunks everywhere pontificate on what it takes to perform the perfect Triple Lutz...even though they’ve never even laced up a pair of skates much less are able to demonstrate their own expertise on the ice. I recommend taking the expertise of self-appointed reviewers on the internet with a grain of salt, especially before spending thousands of dollars based on their "opinions" without at least considering the source and determining if it also pertains to you. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 06/03/22 at 00:29:28 Firstly, Lon has paid me $100 to make posts supportive of his opinion that the Cryotone JJ’s sound bright. Or perhaps overly detailed, which is similar to bright. They did not work for me, but I appreciate they could be excellent for someone else. I’m a hired forum gun, a mercenary, who has no valid opinions of his own. Instead I make my spending money by accepting paid sponsorships by folks like Lon. Thank you Lon. In my opinion, which may or may not be my actual opinion, while both fine chaps, Steve and Don have a financial conflict of interest in this debate. I’m not alluding to anything nefarious, but rather to an inherent bias. Therefore they’re point of view should be viewed in that light. The only way to get to the bottom of the Cryotone question would be for an independent third party to compare, both in measurements and blind listening tests, the same tube both before and after the Cryotone treatment. I’m not clear if my distaste was for JJ’s, or the Cryotone treatment, or both. But alas, that will never happen. Therefore we are left to try the Cryotone offerings out for ourselves under their generous no risk return policy. It’s really that simple. Not sure what the fuss is about. Some like red wine, others white. Some will always prefer NOS. Who cares!? Also, EVERYONE’S opinions ought to be welcome, even if they run against the company line. One thing I dislike far more than a displeasing tube, is when tribal factions form on these forums and dissent is snuffed out like a rhinoceros on fire duty in The Gods Must Be Crazy. And indeed, after reading this thread, the Gods must be crazy. It’s just a tube. [smiley=simp48.gif] |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Edsonic on 06/03/22 at 00:38:40 Quote:
I believe that was his point. The wording and the link he provided left no doubt, actually. Any wise . . . I didn't take either Don's message or Steve's comments as an 'attack' on Lon or impugning his judgement, etc, just trying to provide context. I do think that Mr. Thomas has maybe not the thickest of skin, as there was certainly a defensive tone in his comments. His phrase "and his followers" leaves the implication (even if unintentionally) that others were unduly biased in their own listening from reading Lon's personal observations. Boy, does this guy - not - know Decware forums! People here will indeed sometimes try a new tube (or new amp) based on experience related by others (which necessarily includes 'others-not-named-Lon'), but if they try it and don't like it, regardless whose recommendation, they report in and tell us all about it! Also, Mr. Thomas' claim that the post containing this less-than-stellar review "derailed the thread" is radically off the mark. Almost all threads, any forum, go tangential if lasting long enough. This thread has has certainly gone completely off the rails, a couple of times, but Lon's posts had nothing to do with any of that. I think that the review(s) under scrutiny here provided more than sufficient clarification and context, pointing out that it was his own perspective, and that whatever sonic aspect of the tube causing him 'a spot of trouble' was just as likely to be an attraction for others. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 06/03/22 at 01:20:40 What I take most offense to is the notion that I’m a follower of Lon, when clearly, Lon is a follower of me. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Donnie on 06/03/22 at 02:46:10 Never follow, the view never changes! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Edsonic on 06/03/22 at 03:02:36 Anthem for those who like the view: Follow The Fold https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMyy8rFnb54 |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 06/03/22 at 07:15:23 You know all those giant statues on Easter Island? They were built by followers of Lon. True story. Down there, Lon is like C-3PO at an Ewok gathering. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 06/03/22 at 19:51:05 May the peace of Lon be upon you. Anywho, back to tubes. This is my first foray into tube rolling. I spent $220 on CryoTone, and now another $205 on NOS from Brent Jesse (Amperex and Mullard). The Amperex is a 1963 Bugleboy made for Tektronix. The top end is certainly smoother than the CryoTone, and while I like the tube, it has not blown me away. The 1966 Blackburn Mullard is breaking in, so we shall see what it gets us. But so far, for the CSP3, my favorite input tube - by far - has been the humble stock Decware tube. If the Mullard doesn't grab me, I'll be inclined to simply seek out more of the stock tubes. To my tastes, the sound is tremendous. I'm not sure if the ones on the Decware website (6N1P-EV) are the same as my stock tube which has very little writing. While looking at the Decware replacement tubes, I saw this quote: "Compared to other exotic tubes, for around the same money you can have these superior sounding and longer lasting CRYOTONE tubes from Wathen Audiophile. They make Decware amplifiers and preamps sound better than anything you can put in one!" You know, I understand that this is a business and that marketing is required to sell product. But goodness, that statement is applying the salesmanship a bit thick for me. "..sound better than anything you can put in one" is such a sweeping, nearly impossible to be true statement. How can any one brand of tube be the absolute best there is???? I'm not clear why the marketing needs to go so far in its claims. It has a schtick quality to it that seems unnecessary. I totally get having CryoTone as a good option to try. But that's a far cry from being the best possible tube, in the world, that can go in a Decware amp. I find such a statement not credible in its fundamental structure, on multiple fronts. I could pick it apart line by line - it's a mess! It enters terrain even Kevin Deal dare not tread. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JBzen on 06/03/22 at 20:18:16 Quote:
Come on DS, how can you make a statement like that without owning a Decware Amp? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 06/03/22 at 21:10:59 JBzen, Huh? I own a CSP3, and a ZRock and have owned a ZBox. It's a silly word game to parse my assessment of the marketing quote because I only own 2 Decware pieces, but not an amp. The marketing blurb did not intend to say that CryoTone is the best possible tube for Decware amps, but not Decware preamps or tube EQ's. The quote is stating essentially that CryoTone is the best possible tube for all Decware gear. The point is that there's no such thing as the "universally best tube brand" for any brand of gear. It does not exist. There can be a personal favorite, sure. But universal? Impossible. Steve could say that he likes CryoTone tubes. That's a fair statement. But to imply that CryoTone is the best possible tube to put into a Decware amp, is a ludicrous-reaching-too-far-for-the-sake-of-schtick statement. Lon and I both are proof that not everyone thinks that way, and therefore, our position undoes the universal claims of the marketing blurb. The "best" is entirely in the eye and ear of the beholder. And the notion that any one particular brand of tube somehow beats all other brands, either new production, or new old stock, is at face value an absurd, impossible to be true statement. Do not underestimate the underlying financial and convenience of access to tubes dynamic that CryoTone provides Decware and how that influences Steve's dramatic overstatement. Obviously Steve and Don have formed a partnership of some sort and they're trying to sell the CryoTone idea to the Decware customer base. That's totally fine. But doing so need not require resorting to ridiculous and exaggerated marketing speak. Even Kevin Deal, the schtick-master himself, would never declare one brand of tubes (NOS or present) better than all other brands for PrimaLuna amps. No credible tube dealer would ever declare such a thing. Because such a thing is fundamentally impossible to be true due to the HUGE dynamic of personal, entirely subjective taste. Steve has no ill intent. He's just being sloppy with his words. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JBzen on 06/03/22 at 23:47:55 Well DS, Steve is the eye and ear beholder of his amp enterprise. He has a very very strong following. He has always been sloppy with his articulate words. So, why must one nitpick at this point? When you first mentioned your venture into cryo treated tubes it was very predictable of a bright top end being your use of a solid state power amp. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by ChrisC on 06/04/22 at 00:08:43 We have clearly run out off meaningful things to discuss or better yet meaningful ways to discuss them. Can't we all just get along and drop the verbal gymnastics? You know, express our opinions and perceptions, and aknowledge that most, if not all, of this is as much art and science. Just sayin'.... But hell what do I know I'm new here. ChrisC [smiley=tunes51.gif] |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by effluviography on 06/04/22 at 00:30:50 I don't know if this helps or not. I have not tried the CRYOTONE tubes as of yet, but will probably in the future. With the CSP3, the stock tubes are very, very good. I rolled quite a few tubes in the preamp and think the two best combos for me are stock or Mullard GZ34 (fat base) and 3 Amperex 7308 orange label (1960s & 70s). I am currently using the Mullard/Amerex, but I could easily go back to stock. They are different, but each have slightly different strengths. Now, in my main amp - a Mini-Torii, the NOS (Brimar 13D8 and RCA 6v6) are WAY, WAY better than the stock and could not see myself going back. As the Brimar are getting harder to find, I will probably try the CRYOTONE here when needed. In the SE84CKC in my second system, I use stock but like a few different rectifiers - currently using either a Mullard GZ34 or RCA 5U4. But again, would not be worried if I had to go back to the stock rectifier. And finally, in the ZP3, it is all NOS and I can't see going back to stock. In my experience, some of Decware's products sound great with Steve's stock tubes and others get way, way better with NOS. I'm curious to compare with CRYOTONE in the future to the stock and NOS options and see where I stand. As always trust your ears. And know that Steve is always looking for options to make things sound better, whether we agree that they sound better to us is always up to our perceptions. Cheers to all. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tenorman on 06/04/22 at 00:33:53 DS I think you , Lon and a couple others have made your point ( laced with a lot of sarcasm I might add ). You’re obviously very articulate, clever and have a way with words but enough already . With all due respect I think you’re beating a dead horse at this point . You’ve tried to dress up your comments very nicely but you must admit you are essentially questioning Steve’s integrity - implying that Steve’s recommendation of Cryotone tubes is opportunistic and has more to do with making a buck then him simply expressing his genuine enthusiasm for Cryotone . I watched Steve’s Cryotone video again on YouTube . His enthusiasm for the Cryotone’s seemed completely genuine and he was simply sharing his excitement. I believe he stated very clearly in that video that he could totally understand that some listeners might prefer a more typically rich toned tube over Cryotone but in his opinion Cryotone was technically superior ( quieter with less distortion) . I give Steve great credit for remaining silent while continuing to allow you and others to post your rather cavalier and sanctimonious opinions/criticism freely |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 06/04/22 at 04:51:37 Tenorman, Welcome to the forum and thank you. I think it would be prudent to respond to some of this conversation prior to your very kind post. Quote:
Actually I just pointed out that my (and most others) experience was in alignment with Don’s in that the tubes are generally not perceived as bright… Then I made the possible mistake of trying to explain why some would interpret them as bright without having a lawyer look over my posts. Thankfully Lon knew it wasn’t an attack on him, but my mistake for not realizing others wouldn’t see it that way has been well noted. Quote:
This Kevin Deal thing has really backfired. I don’t know him, as I’ve said, but what you don’t realize is that the only videos I have ever seen from him on YouTube are those about NOS tubes and have always been taken by the fact that what he says is overwhelmingly the same as my own experiences. So when that last video came out, I simply analyzed it’s content, not the person. I’m sorry the guy is not popular and people immediately connected me to him as a personal recommendation because it is obviously causing problems. Again, I should have run this past my lawyers or at least common sense so that misunderstandings would be less likely. I guess this is the growing part and in the future I won’t make the same mistake again. ; ) Quote:
No, What I said is the process is real, you can hear it, it changes things. I was speaking about the process, and yes I was trying to suggest that these attributes which I measured, could not be found in non-cry tubes, no matter what holy grail NOS tube it is. Again, my lawyers let me down because I can guarantee you that if you had some of those holy grail tubes treated by Don and Rodger they would probably smoke the crap out of the JJ tubes they presently have access to. The problem is their process is specific to each individual tube and it takes perhaps 100's of trials per tube to perfect the process. That makes creating a process for NOS tubes completely futile for obvious reasons. That only leaves Slovakia and Russia and China the only three places you can get current production tubes with the soon to be exception of Western Electric in the USA. Quote:
It actually does. It takes a metal and molecularly aligns the crystalline structure to a far superior, far stronger material. Electrically this is similar to single crystal copper or silver wire. Anyway, I sincerely apologize for the sloppy writing and decisions that created this unnecessary drama. I will certainly try to avoid it in the future and all of your points are well taken. Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/04/22 at 04:59:13 Steve, thank you for your response. Your points are well taken too. Lawyer sarcasm aside, I appreciate that you spoke to each significant point. We can agree to disagree on points of context. Your intent is only known by you. You provided clarification, which is greatly appreciated. Thanks again for addressing my concerns. Peace |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/04/22 at 05:44:46 🤣🤣🤣 For those noting Toyotas being made in America, touche. I should have said, "if I tubes up a Shinto amp and sold it, that doesn't make it American." Better? For my part, I apologize for my reading comments in context and responding likewise. Not everyone focuses on grammar and context. That's no slight on anyone as this is a casual thread on all things Decware and audio. Next time I'll ask more questions to get clarification when something seems whack. Peace |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by PDXDrew on 06/04/22 at 07:29:25 So here’s my experience with Cryotone, but before I get into that let me start by explaining my system. I’ve got a 25th anniversary ZMA fed directly by a Sonnet Morpheus DAC- no preamp, which has a Sonnet Herms streamer on the front end. The ZMA is driving a pair of Lee Origin S10. I’ve got Jena Labs Pathfinder I.C. From the Herms to the ZMA and Silversmith speaker cables. I have a pair of REL G-2 subs to augment the bass. I’ve had the REL’s for several years as my system has evolved and I’ve never tried the Lee’s on their own- I just like how the REL’s integrate with these speaker. I also have a stock Zstage- using Jena Labs Symphony IC from the Zstage to the ZMA. My first experience with Cryotone was a 12AU7 tube for the Zstage. As reported earlier in this thread at first I noticed more detail, which was a good thing, but after about four hours my system totally changed and the soundstage took on a transformation that was nothing short of remarkable. What I thought was a very good system turned into t a musical beast. The soundstage now went way beyond the outsides of the speakers. Now I’m hearing even more detail not just in micro dynamics, but things like the reverb of a guitar and the texture of drums all have a profound realism. I was so excited about this new tube I couldn’t wait to order a set of input tubes, which I ordered four, and when I received them I excitedly installed them And was rather disappointed. they brought more detail out, but adding some brightness to the top end. Not at all volumes, but only when I was really rockin. I was using a set of Gold Lion KT88’s as the driver tubes and lived with this setup for about fifty hours and ended up replacing them with a set of Electro-harmonix 6CA7’s, which softened things up a bit, but things just seemed off. The new tubes just threw everything off. I lived with this setup for while and didn’t connect with the sound. Don’t get me wrong- it sounded darn good, but my system lost the magic I experienced with the first Cryotone tube. I put the KT88’s back in and removed the Zstage. This changed things for the better- not quite the same magic I first experienced ,but closer. The brightness was tamed a bit more, but the music still sounded just slightly off- like the timing was off. This got me thinking about my room- which has sounds treatments on the back, side walls and the ceiling above the speakers and centered between them. My speakers are 7’ apart and 4’ from the back wall and about 3’ from the side walls. The toe-in is angled so the speaker pointed to an intersection just behind my head. Last week I moved the speakers one foot closer to the back wall maintaining the same intersection point just behind me this helped some, but made the base a little boomy. Actually kinda obnoxious on some songs. Tonight I moved the right speaker out another 6” and changed to toe-in dematically so it’s now it intersects in front of me and HOLLY CRAP everything snapped back into focus and that magic was back and then some. Every sibilance of brightness disappeared, cymbol strikes sounds cleaner and much more metallic, the boomy base is gone and now has more depth and texture than anything I’ve heard in my room. I’m extremely happy I didn’t give up on these tubes and spent a little time adjusting things to meet their needs. This has been eye opening and is equivalent of a major component upgrade. I will be purchasing a set of Cryotone output tubes, which this time last week isn’t something I was entertaining. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/04/22 at 11:01:14 I've been working with the 6SN7-WC pair this week by changing output tube voltage regulators, rectifiers, the tube in my ZROCK2, speaker placement and some isolation pieces. A lot of the brightness is ameliorated, there's still a "bright" character whenever I make comparisons to other input tubes I use as a control for changes (letting them warm up for about five to ten hours). Which makes me hold fast to my contention that in my system(s), and to my perception these are essentially a bit brighter than neutral, which is how I perceive quite a few tubes others seem to think of as neutral, so that's at least a consistency in my evaluation system. (They present as even a bit brighter when used as the driver tubes in my CSP3 with the 25th Anniversary mods, which I am using as a headphone amp currently.) These are very good tubes with that caveat of a bright character, I've never said otherwise. I do wish I could have all the not insignificant (though hardly in my opinion "world-shattering" or quite "component changing" levels) improvements in detail and dynamics they offer with a slightly richer character. But if my adult life has taught me anything it's that nothing is perfect and there are compromises everywhere in anything that has more than one "thing" going on. I'll keep listening, tweaking and acclimating. (And at the same time Steve's output tubes with the Cryotone treatment are "becoming all that they can be" and adding to the whole picture). At least I have them situated now presenting in a not uncomfortable manner. Like PDX I'm rediscovering how "working on making something fit" can pay off. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/04/22 at 14:20:34 Gentlemen, thank you for bringing this thread back on track. Last night I caught up on the recent posts and felt that the purpose of this forum had been compromised possibly beyond repair. Today some hope has been restored. Once upon a time I could visit dealers and hear components for myself. Distribution of music consisted of going to the record stores. Surround sound consisted of "4 channel" to which video was added and that became a branch unto itself. Then came digital - UGH!!! Things have changed. Thankfully digital has improved. Now auditioning components in person is severely limited. That leaves the online experience and forums such as this which requires that we learn to use posts as a starting point to develop our systems. It also means that we will be making adjustments and changes as we purchase components. That has not changed. I recall that even with the in person experience I was rolling components as there was no guarantee that I would experience in my home what I did in the dedicated auditioning rooms. Some of these changes will be made in our rooms as did PDXDrew. I had exactly the same experience as Drew had with exactly the same CryoTone 12AU7-WCL. Other changes will involve more based on information presented in posts. Therefore, information that is posted has to be objective and limited to the items and not the assumed intentions of the maker (no sarcasm intended). When that has been the case I have benefited. A comment that Lon made on my review of the Omega Vintage 8HO speakers with the CryoTone tubes in my system actually helped to crystallize what I was trying to achieve... "you are the microphone". I have experienced this in the past but trying to replicate it has been extremely challenging. Hopefully we can stay on track. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tenorman on 06/04/22 at 17:35:18 Very interesting PDX - after installing the Cryotone tubes in my Croft Mirco 25 RSLS Preamp I also had to adjust the toe in ( slightly ) of my Falcon Gold Badge Ls35a’s to optimize the sound. I was using my beloved ( strongly measured ) NOS RCA 12bh7 black plate tubes in my Preamp before I replaced them with the Cryotone’s . Initially I was a bit disappointed as I thought the Cryotone’s sounded slightly sterile in the midrange compared to the richer tonality of the RCA’s . I decided to let the Cryotone’s settle in for a few days before I came to any final conclusions - I’m glad I did . After a week I reinserted the NOS RCA tubes for comparison and that lovely tonality of the RCA midrange that I had perceived as so rich - now sounded a bit mushy compared to the clarity and micro detail I was hearing in the Cryotone’s mids. Now that I’ve become accustomed to that Cryotone clarity I don’t think I could do without it . I also find the Cryotone tubes absolutely unflappable at higher volumes or when there are large dynamic swings in orchestral music. The treble region with Cryotone’s is definitely very extended but without distortion . I would never characterize them as bright though , but I can understand that others with sensitive ears might . In the end it’s all subjective and to each his own . Based on the previously posted comments they may not be for everyone but I’ll be sticking with the Cryotone’s. I just purchased 2 more . |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 06/04/22 at 18:14:34 Not directly Cryotone related, but the idea of moving speakers around in conjunction with rolling tubes had never occurred to me. I did just that after putting some new power tubes in my UFOs and the sound went from great to "face melting" as Steve might say. Just a reminder of how much great information is available on these fora. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 06/04/22 at 23:00:30 Shoots, why not CryoTone the least expensive 300B’s we can find and use those in the Sarah instead of the $1500 Western Electric. After all, as we all know, CryoTone is the best tube on the market for Decware amps… Just sayin’… The prosecution rests… |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/05/22 at 00:26:15 Because not all metal is made of the same alloys. Different alloys react differently to processing whether that be heat treating, tempering or cryogenic treatment. The first thing to be determined before processing of any kind is the alloy composition of the metal from which something is made including the metal used in tube plates and wire. THEN, in the case of vacuum tubes, one has to figure out how to get past the vacuum to get to the right temperature hot or cold depending on the process. It appears that you have very little understanding of these processes and the time and costs involved. Comments of the kind that you are making regarding cryogenic treatment are best ignored which is what I for one will be doing moving forward. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Donnie on 06/05/22 at 02:46:46 Then the first thing that happens is that the metal inside the tube heats up hot enough to glow and undoes everything that the cryo process does. Sorry folks this is really simple to understand if you think about it. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 06/05/22 at 02:53:59 Quote:
Its only a small part of the tube (the cathode) that gets red hot, and it most does chemistry (cooking electrons off the cathode coating) not really "electronics." The rest of the tube guts: the plate and the grids and the connecting wires don't get nearly that hot. Presumably that is where whatever magic the cryo treatment does happens. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lin on 06/05/22 at 03:04:01 Donnie wrote on 06/05/22 at 02:46:46:
First sensible post I have read in this thread. [smiley=dankk2.gif] |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Donnie on 06/05/22 at 03:37:35 CAJames wrote on 06/05/22 at 02:53:59:
Ok, going with that logic, wouldn't make more sense to cryo the whole amp? Far more wires and assorted other metallic items inside of a amp for this magic to work on. Sorry, looking at this from a logical point of view blows holes in the logic behind it. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/05/22 at 03:55:58 That's exactly what doesn't happen. The only way to undo cryogenic treatment is to take the metal to the "critical temperature of the metal" in question. The lower critical temperature is defined as the point at which phase change of any substance occurs. The lower critical temperature of all steels is 723 deg, C or 1,333.4 degrees F., for comparison carbon steel is hardened at 800 - 900 deg C or 1,400 - 1,652 deg F So so lets think about this as you suggest... All tubes have a maximum operating temperature. To find out what the maximum temperature that a tube is designed to operate at simply look up the data sheets. The data sheet for a GEC KT88 shows the maximum design temperature as 250 deg C or 482 deg F. A vacuum tube plate or anode that glows red is overheating and experiencing overload conditions. The heater glows but not the plate. I doubt that any of us have components in which the and glows. If we did what would we do??? The lower critical temperature of metal is 1,333.4 deg F. and the maximum operating temperature of this specific KT88 is 482 deg F. Well below the point at which the cryogenic process would be compromised. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 06/05/22 at 03:58:44 My gut tells me that if the atoms are more perfectly arranged in a crystalline structure from getting closer together as the result of cryo treatment then when they are heated and expand the structure probably becomes even more perfect because it would have some space enough to create a more perfect alignment of the structure instead of being squashed together. My guess is that the heater/cathode of a cryo treated tube probably lasts quite a bit longer. I am pretty sure heating the metal up doesn't undo the alignment. Here's a question for everyone here: What are austenite and martensite? If you don't know, then you don't know anything about cryo treatment. Here is a well laid out explanation of how it works in a single page: https://ctpcryogenics.com/cryogenics/what-is-cryogenic-processing/what-does-cryogenic-processing-do/ I think a nice read of the above link would be encouraging for everyone who has purchased these tubes or anyone thinking about it to understand what is actually happening by learning about the process. -Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 06/05/22 at 04:00:34 Logic? Look, I'm a physicist by training and so I do believe that at its core there is a "logical" explanation for everything in the universe. But there are a lot of things in human experience, like music reproduction, that are more subtle than we can understand to first principles today. The expression "more art than science" comes to mind. I know a little something about electric conductivity in metals, and it is wickedly complicated. And I know a very little something about how super cooling affects a metal lattice. And it doesn't seem ridiculous, prima facie, that cryo treating a vacuum tube will make it sound different and maybe better. That being said for me personally I'm in no hurry to buy them myself. As for cryo treating the entire amp, I'm going to PM you about going into business doing exactly that. That is a stroke of genius. ![]() |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/05/22 at 04:17:38 Quote:
Exactly! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/05/22 at 04:24:11 Time for a dram of the single malt... anybody want to join in... ahhh, virtually that is. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 06/05/22 at 04:33:18 Aye! I'm in. Cheers! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/05/22 at 06:20:53 I just read this article. https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/cryogenic-treatment-of-tubes-an-engineers-perspective/ The summary of this scientific investigation, there's no proof anything is happening to the metal to effect tone. Many scientists with relevant credentials have said the same thing about the technology of fancy audio cables, "there's no proof the technology in this $5000 cable will affect tone." Maybe science only goes so far; whereas, the human brain does note differences. Interesting discussion either way. Steve, is there any possible way you could make your statement about the different steel moleculular structures that doesn't imply stupidity? Here's an example, "to know about cryogenic effects on steel requires knowing about martensite and austenite. Here's an article to read about it." It is less judgemental toward your audience. Peace to everyone |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/05/22 at 11:31:24 Quote:
This is what is known as a verbal boomerang |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/05/22 at 12:02:39 Oh and incase you think that I haven't read Phil Taylors article who is an electrical engineer and not a metallurgist, here's a quote from the article: Quote:
Okay, let's think about this... "a tube is not lump of steel-like a wrist watch " really???????? The inner workings of a wrist watch, an instrument that we could say, in a way measures time, are not delicate, are not made to exacting tolerances, and that companies and and skilled trades persons are therefore needlessly spending time and effort to produce "lumps of steel". Phils statement is the personification of stupidity. It destroys utterly any credibility for using this drivel as proof. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/05/22 at 12:40:23 "Neener, neener, you're dumb." Nice argument JOMAN. The author was not saying the wristwatch is a lump of steel. In fact, he was stating just the opposite. He was using the wristwatch as an analogous example to a vacuum tube. Eliminate the bracketed clause, a lump of steel, and read the sentence. A tube, like a wristwatch, it's a delicate mechanism. He's identifying that both items are complex and variable in makeup. Neither is a lump of steel. I was offering up an interesting article on the subject in this thread. Maybe, the author isn't spot on, maybe, but it's certainly relevant. If I'm wrong, awesome, then I will have learned something. That's a reason to celebrate not feel stupid.Once again, good discourse goes a long way without character judgements and/or character assassination. Please try it. As far as being an electrical engineer, like a metallurgist, they have cross discipline knowledge and an ability to scientifically assess research in other scientific disciplines. It's also not a stretch for an EE to know principles of metallurgy for purposes of energy movement, conduction, and other effects upon and within different types of metal. Here's an except from https://www.cryogenicsociety.org/cryo-careers "Cryo Careers Professionals who deal with cryogenics learn their trade in a variety of academic and hands-on ways, coming from the fields of mechanical, chemical and electrical engineering, various specialized physics areas, materials science and a combination of these and other backgrounds. Whatever the academic background, there is always a basic need for hands-on experience in the lab or in industry. Mr Taylor may not be experienced in the cryo trade, but him being and EE certainly doesn't disqualify him from speaking on the subject, as evidenced by the excerpt above. Thank you, JOMAN, for the encouragement. It really helps the environment for learning. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JBzen on 06/05/22 at 12:54:46 Thanks safebelayer for beating me to Joman's misinterpretation of what was being pointed out between a mechanical watch and vacuum tube. I read the articles posted by you and Steve linked. Interesting points of cryo treatment has been used on hardened steel to further refine the process of hardening both before and after the process of hardening. My take at this point is Don created a timed process that basically does not shorten the life of the tube. My thoughts turned to can this cryo process just tighten the connections in the various materials inside the tube giving it a different tonal character? John |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/05/22 at 13:13:39 Yes it was a misinterpretation. Perhaps the way it was written had something to do with it. Or the My apologies. However I do feel that the use of words such as stupidity should not be used by me or others if objectivity is to be maintained. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/05/22 at 13:31:27 Correction, Yes it was a misinterpretation. Perhaps the way it was written had something to do with it OR more likely the way that I read it... my apologies. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/05/22 at 14:35:37 I would like to add the following, We often base conclusions on measurement, even though we often learn to measure after a discovery. The statement has been made... the more we discover the less we know. Yet we still have a tendency to base conclusions and arguments on what limited knowledge we have without qualifying statements and conclusions with an acknowledgement our limitations... what we know at this time. Credentials do not make us omniscient. Our senses, hearing, vision, taste cannot be denied and lead to discoveries and often these are not taken into consideration or worse are dismissed. I find this discussion of cryogenic treatment to be tainted with some or all of the above. Some of what I feel about the manner in which we present what we know may be affected by misinterpretation, but certainly not all of what I feel about this. I find the humans have degree of arrogance and when I encounter this I find it to be very distasteful. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/05/22 at 16:24:36 JOMAN, First class response. Truly. If everyone owned their actions and the effects of such, well, good stuff happens. I appreciate your choice to do so rather than ego protection. I know it is a lesson I have to practice daily, if not hourly. Peace |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by DancingSea on 06/09/22 at 19:30:55 Good stuff JOMAN! I've spent more time with the 1966 Blackburn Mullard, and a 1963 Amperex Bugleboy. Wow, both have been splendid. The Amperex has a bit more tingle on the top end, but not remotely harsh or aggressive. Both might not measure well, but they sound excellent to me. My theory is that CryoTone JJ's add solid state like qualities which likely enhance an all tube, low watt setup. Increased bass and slam, along with a more revealing top end. I have a 200 watt solid state Marantz amp, so I have the solid state part covered and the CryoTone JJ's tipped the scales in too much of that direction. My particular sonic gumbo benefits from the more romantic, creamy and euphonic nature of those old school measuring poorly tubes. It softens and enriches the sound. When one thinks about it, discussing how a tube sounds is fraught with danger. We can't just listen to a tube on its own. The tube must be plugged into an amp or preamp, which is connected to speakers, a source, and God knows what else. Thus reporting back on how a particular tube sounds is actually reporting back on how the whole gumbo sounds, with the tube being just a tiny part of the equation, egg #13 in a baker's dozen. The CryoTone experience has been extremely helpful in clarifying what type of tubes I like. I cannot imagine doing better than NOS Amperex and Mullard. And equally understand how cost and availability would make CryoTone appealing to manufacturers. Which leads me to another theory, that additional noise does not necessarily sound worse, and in fact might enhance the sound. My experience with PS Audio started that line of thought. Each Ted Smith update sought to reduce noise. And each update sounded worse to me. Our minds want certainty, to create order out of the chaos of our existence, to latch onto a belief or ideology and make that "the truth". In sound engineering the belief that all noise is detrimental can turn into just such a dogma - look at Audio Science Review. And look at vinyl, which is noisier and preferred by many. Our brains are not noise meters. They are a complex result of evolution over massive expanses of time in which iron clad rules seldom have relevance. And after millions of years, we are literally the first generation of humans to ever have such HiFi gear to listen to. First ever. This is hardly the time to create sonic dogma, we are at the very birth of HiFi with hundreds upon hundreds of years ahead of us, as a species, to learn about the nature of sound. We are literally in the leeches are great and pay your respects to the Sun God Ra phase of our collective HiFi journey. Anyone who claims to know, obviously knows little. We have much to learn. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/16/22 at 14:34:23 Question: CryoTone 6SN7 tubes are the JJ 6SN7? ![]() If true is that the same for the KT77 & EL34? It's interesting to hear them (JJ6SN7 Cyrotone) described as bright. My thoughts always has been they are extremely neutral. They just add good clean gain. Have a few new production 6SN7s that started with a elevated top end. Some of my favorite. Guess I'm curious to try them out. Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/16/22 at 18:31:52 Joseph, What nos 6sn7 tubes have you tried to compare these against? Thanks |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/16/22 at 19:04:29 safebelayer, Only 6SN7GTA or B, Tung-sol, Sylvania, RCA, and GE. Older the better. As "NOS" have more old stock. Don't use the JJ's much. Good to have being so neutral. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/16/22 at 20:28:44 New production- all of them....lol |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/16/22 at 23:18:58 Have you used the psvane cv181 mk ii? https://www.ebay.com/itm/255489645621?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=VVm0LaWTQP2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=zGZG0FPeTNu&var=555442800921&widget_ver=artemis&media=SMS I liked them a lot in my vac mono amps. I found them to be neutral. Yes, they're not cheap. I'm not a fan of 6sn7 in the Torii mkiv. I also used rca and ken-rad gray tops (vt231). Both were excellent in the monos...though I like warm & dynamic. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/17/22 at 02:33:32 safebelayer, Yes, from Viva Tubes. About 14 months ago. Purchase all my new production tubes before the price increase. Like them a lot. My pre amp doesn't play nice with foil getters. Just stick with the GTA,B or 5692. Not sure if I want to use adapters on the Torri. Have some "NOS" Mullard and Amperex E88CC to try out. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/17/22 at 04:07:10 I found the 6sn7 in the Torii was likely limited to the quality of the adapter. I'm a huge fan of the amperex 7308 and Mullard equivalent. I have found the 70s production of those tubes to be notably less impressive. Thinner sounding or not as rich...is that redundant? Do you have preferred power and rectifier tubes? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by tempest62 on 06/17/22 at 04:15:28 Get rid of garbage Chinese communist 6SN7 adapters [a beautiful sledge hammer provides excellent therapy], be done with the case of the heavy veils, and get THIS instead: https://www.ebay.com/itm/265553186770?hash=item3dd4340fd2:g:-PYAAOSwOyJX-neh |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/17/22 at 05:21:18 safebelayer, Thinking about ordering Cyrotone power and rectifier tubes. Have a nice selection of rectifiers. Just got my Torii the other day, running stock tubes. I'll get in to changing the rectifies soon. Brad, Nice find, how long have you had them? Never seen those before. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/17/22 at 07:50:30 Those adapters have been around for a couple years. Unfortunately, they don't make the EL34 to 807 adapter. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/19/22 at 00:27:56 Orders in, went with the EL34 and 5AR4. Skipped the 6SN7 maybe next time. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by safebelayer on 06/19/22 at 02:40:44 I would want to compare the cryotone to my nos Russian 6L6gc (1960s-70s). That said, I'm not interested in the $600 initial layout to do so. I guess I'll live in ignorance, happy with my $60 quad. I hope to hear what you think. Peace |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/19/22 at 04:27:30 safebelayer, Educational purchase, wish I would have bought some of those Russian 6L6gc a year ago. Most I ever spent on tubes for sure. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 06/19/22 at 04:35:38 Thanks for the link Brad. Those are nice. I ordered one to try out. I won’t need another til my other SE84 gets here next year :-/ Best, Geno |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/21/22 at 21:20:07 Hey Geno, Starting to see a pattern forming here. Seem to be buying the same stuff. Ordered two myself, thanks Brad. Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/22/22 at 15:36:48 Geno said: "Thanks for the link Brad. Those are nice. I ordered one to try out. I won’t need another til my other SE84 gets here next year Undecided Best, Geno" I ordered a pair of these some time ago before they were suggested here. The first tube I inserted in one the guide pin broke off inside it, so it can now only be used for that tube. And the pair of bases produced a sound when used a bit brighter than the other pairs I had been using so I put them aside. It's possible that the brightness would season "out" but I didn't want to try it then and have forgotten about them since--side-lined a pair of matched tubes for me. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/22/22 at 18:34:18 Lon, What adapters are you using presently, if you don't mind me asking sir? Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/22/22 at 19:15:00 Just some from eBay, Chinese made. I like them. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/22/22 at 20:52:52 Lon, Thank you sir, have some of those. Appreciate your opinions and thoughts as always. Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 06/23/22 at 03:52:52 I purchased three Cryotone 6SN7 tubes from Wathen several weeks ago. The tubes have been used in the two driver positions and the input position of my Cary 300SEI. They came so closely matched that it didn’t matter which positions the tubes occupied. Here’s where I need some advice. When I first fired up the amp following installation of the Cryotone tubes, the right channel was making common preamp tube noise—huffing, puffing, hissing, and some minor static. I swapped the left and right driver tubes and the noise moved to the left channel. I then moved the apparently noisy tube to the input position, and the tube noise was gone. So I left it that way for a few weeks. Approximately a week ago I again shifted the positions of the three 6SN7’s, with the suspect tube now in one of the driver positions, and the noises instantly reappeared. Left and right driver tubes were once again swapped and the noise followed the “bad” tube. Now the noisy tube is back in the input position, the amp is noiseless, and the left and right channel outputs seem to be perfectly balanced. It also sounds fantastic with the three Cryotones feeding the Western Electric 300B’s that have now surpassed the 300 hour mark. My questions are these. Is the sometimes noisy tube actually a bad tube? Is this the beginning of early tube failure? Why is it dead silent when used in the input position, but noisy when in either driver position? Except for the SS amp that is driving my woofers, every amp and preamp I have owned for nearly 40 years has been tube based, but I have never experienced this odd tube issue. I sent Don a similar description of the problem a week or so ago, but haven’t heard back from him yet. I plan to call him in a day or two, but would be interested in forum member opinions in the mean time. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by LiquidBlue on 06/23/22 at 05:21:51 Regarding adapters, I have a bunch of 6SN7’s on hand. I recently picked up a few of the Chinese adapters on eBay to use in my CSP3. I find the adapters don’t seat properly, because of the screws on each side of the tube sockets. The adapters don’t sit flush and are wobbly, not leaving me very confident to use them. Do others have this issue and if so, how did you resolve this? Did you dremel out a notch on the bottom edge of the adapter to get it to seat better? Change out the screws? Do these alternative adapters that Brad linked to fit better? It looks like the bottom portion is even wider than an octal base, but I’m not sure if the bottom insulator would be more narrow for the proper adapter, allowing it to seat better? Or perhaps the pins are a little longer? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/23/22 at 08:34:42 Lon, the good news is when your tubes get to the one year mark and you have a chance to evaluate the longevity i'll still have the summer to adjust to my new Rachel & ZP3 stock before I move on your tube recommendations for them. It's on my calendar to check in with you. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/23/22 at 11:58:19 I'm not sure how my longevity report on the 6P15P-WC tubes will be relevant to those two components. . . . I have expectations that the 6SN7 Cryotone will last 3 to 5 years . . . going beyond the one year point operation won't represent any longevity for them as it would the output tubes. At this point we can take the word of Wathen Speakers that other users have had 3 years or so of use out of their tubes, and we can have faith that this will apply to us. This would be the key selling point depending on the nature of one's temperament and experience and whether this sort of faith and trust would lead to a purchase. About three or four years from now user testimonial here will add another level of "proof" that these tubes are worth the three to four times cost of the tubes compared to untreated examples. I do feel there are some valid improvements to the sound from the treatment, but in my opinion the sales hype is a bit. . . sales hype. The improvements alone don't to me warrant three to four times the cost, and I've enjoyed some NOS input tubes about as much at not quite this price. And all this leads me to say that we have tempests in teapots on this thread because so much is still up in the air. (And some apparently generated with little real info just to spice up someone's afternoon). The way that tubes sound in my experience differs from component to component. I have tubes I really enjoyed in my Torris that i don't enjoy in my Taboo and Monoblocks, and vice versa. And tubes some like a lot here others don't value highly. Longevity seems to thus be the key, solid value to these tubes. . . and we are years away from knowing the truth of these claims from Decware user experience. This discussion has had all kinds of disagreeable (owned or not owned, owned but REPEATED) exchanges. . . and left some pretty bad tastes in mouths. . . and is much ado about very little. Honestly I think I could gain the most by revisiting this thread in three years and seeing how many of these original output tubes are still in use! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/23/22 at 13:59:10 Yes Cyro Don only treats one tube that's relevant to the Rachel, the EL34 that received superlative reviews here on this thread. I didn't see any listings for 6N1P, 6N23P, 6H1N, 6922, 6Dj8,7DJ8 or 6N2P. Steve himself only lists one type untreated. Still longevity at peak performance level as a quality imbued by tube specific cryogenic treatment should still be demonstrable across the board. Can you agree with that premise? I have a nice stash of Mullard, Phillips, RCA and other flavor nos valves, both preamp and power tubes. I still intend to use them but your careful attention to the cycling of the tubes in your rig will influence my opinion. Plus in that one year others will I'm sure help the dust settle around the tempest. Quite honestly I am surprised that cryogenics is getting another go on the merry go round, nothing new under the sun. We went this way with so many different items in the live performance arena two decades ago. I see nothing wrong with using crystals enhancements and silver paint on tube connectors. I am still open to believing in magic if it's cost-effective. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/23/22 at 14:18:32 I'll entertain that premise if not entirely agree with it. The real test would be to have a pair of the same exact output tube run parallel in the same components for the same time and compare them one against the other after a year, two years, three or as long as there is no difference. I can't conduct that test, I don't think the vendor is doing so. There's an element of trust involved in this as a base line as I see it. (I don't believe in "magic" at any price point). I'll try to remember to make a post about these in a year or so. If I'm around. If I'm not listening to another amp between now and then--I'd jump at a chance to be listening to the Sarah! Variables. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 06/23/22 at 14:22:48 Doug, Give Don a call. I had a Cryo tube that flashed at start-up. I pulled it immediately. Don replaced it and asked that I return the tube for further investigation, which I did. You can also request to talk with Angie when you leave a message(angie@wathenspeakers.com.) Ultimately you need to discuss it with Don, but she can facilitate it. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 06/23/22 at 14:28:11 LiquidBlue asked: Do others have this issue and if so, how did you resolve this? Did you dremel out a notch on the bottom edge of the adapter to get it to seat better? That's what I did. Now they fit perfectly. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Same Old DD on 06/23/22 at 16:28:37 Joe, that thing's a beauty! I'll bet that old Jensen design puts out some wonderful tone and richness. I would love to see more amps that were made in the "old way" in use today. ''Oh, I get the same sound and it's lighter" No, you don't! I have nothing that "classic" looking, but I did keep a '65 Twin Reverb, one of my old stage amps used by MANY and a black, post-tweed Champ (my Dad's living room amp, can't remember the year). They both have very warm AlNiCo Jensens. I love your repro! ... and you got #4? Amazing! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/23/22 at 17:49:57 Beautiful amp, I bet it sounds wonderful. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 06/24/22 at 00:38:12 Tony said: Give Don a call. I had a Cryo tube that flashed at start-up. I pulled it immediately. Don replaced it and asked that I return the tube for further investigation, which I did. You can also request to talk with Angie when you leave a message(angie@wathenspeakers.com.) Ultimately you need to discuss it with Don, but she can facilitate it. Don is sending a replacement 6SN7-WC for the “likely bad” tube…….no questions asked. Mr. Wathen is certainly a stand up guy! I like the sound of the three Cryotone 6SN7-WC’s driving my Western Electric 300B’s so much that I just ordered a Cryotone 5AR4 rectifier and a Cryotone ECC88 input tube for my CSP3. We’ll see how they compare to the very musical Sophia 274B Aqua rectifier and any number of really good NOS 6922/6DJ8 tubes I have. I have a feeling that the Cryotones will fair well…….we’ll know shortly. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/24/22 at 18:49:01 Funny side note, Received my order today from Wathen. Somehow I was sent EL84 instead of EL34. Called and got voicemail. Guess I'll give the 5AR4 a try. Oh well stuff happens I'm sure it will all work out. Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/24/22 at 19:00:31 Good Side note, My call has been returned and the EL34 will be here in 2 days. Don really is a nice guy. Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/25/22 at 04:16:23 When placing my new tube order with Brent Jessee Recording Services I inquired about THEIR opinion of the Cryogenic treatment of tubes and its efficacy in improving tube performance and the science behind it. Brent Jesse recording services has been in business for more than 25 years offering high quality testing, selection and grading of tubes with excellent customer service and reputation. As I mentioned earlier this subject is a merry go round that has through time come around once again to be discussed but this time with even less scientific evidence of its efficacy. Without quoting anybodies SUBJECTIVE but authoritative opinions promoting their use and encouraging people to purchase these tubes here on these pages I will repeat the reasoning and facts Brent Jessee offered to conclude using the same scientific theory and logic that it is their OBJECTIVE opinion that Cryogenic treatment has no effect on metal inside a vacuumThis was the same provable scientific fact that was used to repudiate Cryo treatment of electronic vacuum tubes as was used in the last century. Unless anyone has scientific evidence that proves that Cryo treatment can permeate a glass vacuum effectually changing the metallurgic chemistry inside a vacuum I will remain unconvinced. I have included their complete letter verbatim without any editing {Hi Joseph, We have all of the tubes you need. The 6L6 are on our 6L6 web page. The metal jacket RCA and GE are $65.00 per matched pair. The standard 6SJ7 tubes of various brands are $5.00 each. RCA are $10.00 each. For the best, we recommend the instrument grade 5693 RCA “red” series in the red metal jacket. They are far superior. They are $90.00 each. The RCA made 5U4G tubes are $99.00 each. Quote:
Shipping insured is $17.00 in the USA, $31 to Canada, and $40 to other countries. State of Illinois residents only, add 10% state tax based on the cost of the merchandise. The easiest way to pay is online with Paypal. You can pay direct here: xxxxxxxxxxxxx Just enter the total for tubes and appropriate shipping in the box in the center of the screen (if not appearing there already) and follow the on screen directions. Select the “send” button. It is recommended to enter your shipping address in the message section to confirm the shipping address. Also list which tubes you want. If the link does not work in your email, just copy it and paste into your web browser. Please allow a few extra days for us to get the order out since we are operating with a reduced staff due to the pandemic, and most domestic and international shipping is experiencing delays. Thank you! Brent Jessee} But don't just take their word for it as final here is a link to a scientific independent study "CRYOGENIC TREATMENT OF TUBES: AN ENGINEER’S PERSPECTIVE by PHIL TAYLOR" https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/cryogenic-treatment-of-tubes-an-engineers-perspective/ |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 06/25/22 at 05:25:33 I have stayed out of this discussion because I have no experience with cryo tubes. I must intersect that "CRYOGENIC TREATMENT OF TUBES: AN ENGINEER’S PERSPECTIVE by PHIL TAYLOR" is not a scientific article, it is an opinion piece. One can search google scholar for actual published scientific literature on the subject. Unlike Mr. Taylor’s opinion, there is actually a published body of literature on the cryogenic treatment of a variety of nonferrous metals in a vacuum. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/25/22 at 07:03:06 Well then please by all means let's have a link. I provided you with the verbatim opinion of Brent Jessee and a second article by an engineer. If it is your opinion that "CRYOGENIC TREATMENT OF TUBES: AN ENGINEER’S PERSPECTIVE by PHIL TAYLOR" is not a scientific article, that you believe it is an opinion piece and not a scientific study by your standards then let's see what scientific studies you are referring to. Common sense that you would have one at you finger tips ready to support Your opinion that you so far have never published because you don't own any and have stayed out of because you have no experience with cryogenically treated tubes. Which is it? Do you have no experience or you believe I quote that "there is actually a published body of literature on the cryogenic treatment of non ferrous metals a vacuum" |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 06/25/22 at 19:37:08 I don’t have a dog in the cryo’d tube fight but I do care about science. And Effectrode.com is not a peer reviewed journal and articles appearing there are no more or less subjective than any other audio or vacuum tube related website out on the internets. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/25/22 at 20:25:36 Very well attack my scholarship, you just convinced me. Cryogenics is the way to go |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 06/25/22 at 21:47:37 I guess if I had a point it would be “scholarship” is not as good a test as listening if you want to know what sounds good. YMMV. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Edsonic on 06/25/22 at 22:24:31 Quote:
Just so you know: a full-on rant against cryogenic treatment of tubes does not constitute "a study" in most people's estimation, nor would they read the numerous logical fallacies and non sequiturs derived from speculation and conjecture littered all through the article as being in any way "scientific." That is not an opinion, it's an observation. So then, to the article - - "I did, however, come across research papers describing how cryogenic treatment hardens aluminium though; perhaps it’s possible that the process will also harden copper, nickel and the other metals utilised in the construction of tubes too?" - Followed later by - "But it should be kept in mind that cryogenic treatment is ordinarily employed to complete the conversion of austenite to martensite in hardened steel as described earlier; the metal electrodes, and other parts inside a tube aren’t quenched to make them super hard to begin with, which means there is no conversion to complete. So, if cryo-treatment doesn’t affect the hardness or stiffness of the electrodes then what benefits does it impart on a vacuum tube?" - [Emphases added]. The author can't even keep up with what he wrote just a few sentences before. Aluminum is not subjected to the same initial hardening process as steel, and he himself says that aluminum nevertheless is hardened by cryogenic treatment. But then he goes on to claim that other metals in tubes are not hardened by cryogenic treatment because they do not go through the same initial hardening process that steel does. For cryogenic hardening of aluminum, he alludes to research papers. His claim that no such effect can be obtained for other metals in a tube does not reference any study, rather, his errant conclusion is clearly based on pure speculation, derived from misdirected conjecture. Here is a statement from the author, which he apparently considers a "slam dunk" of some sort: - "Tube manufacturers never designed or intended tubes to be stored at cryogenic temperatures." - Here is another statement, from me: "Tube manufacturers never made any proscription against cryogenic treatment of tubes." Both statements are equally true. And - both statements are equally meaningless. But the author's statement presents another issue that anyone paying attention can easily spot; he now refers to cryogenic storage, rather than cryogenic treatment or cryogenic process. And does the same later on: - "It’s worth noting that electronics component manufacturers publish datasheets that specify temperature ranges for storing and operating their devices—none recommend storing their components at temperatures colder than a midwinter’s night on Mars." - Either the author actually doesn't know that operation, storage, and process treatment are three different things, - with distinctly different considerations for each -, or - he is being intentionally deceptive by strategically conflating one with another. Take your pick. - "cryo-treatment is liable to ruin a tube permanently and irreversibly unless precautions are taken to protect it from the stresses of the procedure. The temperature must be cycled (decreased and increased) slowly for the reasons outlined above and the humidity has to be maintained at near zero to prevent condensation forming and oxidising exposed metal parts. Additionally, the utmost care needs be taken when handling a tube whilst it is at cryogenic temperatures as the physical properties of the materials from which the tube is constructed alter." - Which in fact describes generally all tube cryogenic treatments in practice, - and he knows this -. But that doesn't stop him from referencing how destructive a sudden dip to cryogenic temperature immediately destroys things, - so cryo is bad for tubes: - "There’s a dramatic scene in the “Terminator 2″ movie where a single bullet fired by Arnold Schwarzenegger shatters the frozen T-1000 terminator into a thousand pieces!" - followed by a you tube link showing a room temperature item being dropped into liquid nitrogen. At this point it becomes clear that the author's negativity-bias cup runneth over, and now he is just foaming at the mouth. And on and on it goes. So again, not everybody's idea of "scientific." |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Edsonic on 06/25/22 at 22:25:39 This is too funny - - " and later performed audio listening tests [of cryo'd tubes] using a Fender ‘Deluxe Reverb’ guitar amp." . . . "The amp didn’t sound more “holographic” or ” possess more subtle inner resolution”. " - So there we have the nail in the coffin - cryo tubes are no good for high end home audio because there was no perceived difference in the subtle aspects of an electric guitar amplifier whose design purpose is to be very loud and easily operate under high distortion conditions. Not necessarily for scientific purpose, but just for comedic fun, I wish these test listeners had described for us the Fender amp's holographic qualities and characteristic subtle inner resolution with the non-treated tubes, as a baseline reference. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/25/22 at 23:43:55 Yes attack the scholarship of the article. When are you gonna post the links saying that there is a technical cyrorogenic affect inside a vacuum. Every body conveniently ignores Brandt Jesse's statement, skipping past the freely given statement from Brandt Jessee. You can refute the article all you want but you still haven't put any evidence across that there can be a cry effect inside of a vacuum tube. Debate that article all you want until you turn blue. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 06/26/22 at 02:13:01 Hi, Joe. Please don’t take my comment as a personal attack or challenge to your scholarship; that was not my intention. Again, I don’t have any cryo tubes- I’ve ordered some and they are yet to arrive. Once they arrive it will take some time listening and breaking in before I have personal experience to compare both sound and longevity. Years, likely. As I read through the article that you shared I was hit with a lot of terms that I was unfamiliar with. When that happens I typically go to google scholar (http://www.scholar.google.com) and search out for myself so I can learn. So I started typing keywords like “cryo vacuum nickel”, “cryo molybdenum vacuum”, etc. and was getting dozens of results of real scientific research, with a hypothesis, methods, and results, that was published in peer reviewed scientific journals. I could share dozens of links to the articles, or the readers here can search themselves. I have free access to most of these journals through my employer but the average reader may not. It seemed to me that the reader would be more frustrated by following links to dozens of articles that they could only read the abstract to. Anyway, I apologize if I offended you. Another thought that I had reading your article is that their perspective is that of audio engineer in a studio environment. Very different than home hifi. While most serious studios are doing mixdowns on Yamaha NS10’s, I don’t know any audiophile folks that are listening to these in their systems. So I am wondering if perhaps a cryo tube isn’t the cat’s meow in a studio environment… but maybe there is something valuable about them in the home hifi. Im looking forward to learning for myself. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 06/26/22 at 02:48:38 Many of us have been purchasing power tubes, rectifier tubes, and preamp tubes from Brent for years. I probably have 20 plus NOS Brent Jesse tubes on the storage shelf in my listening room; all have seen significant use in my gear. I currently have a great sounding Telefunken 6922 (bought from Brent) in the input position of my CSP3. Brent has never steered me in the wrong direction; I have always been completely satisfied with every tube purchased from Brent. On the other hand, I have been using Cryotone 6SN7-WC tubes in the driver positions and the input position on my Cary 300 SEI MK6 for a couple of months. They’re great sounding tubes with a high degree of resolution, detail, and excellent musicality. Is their ability to produce beautiful, real sounding music due to the cryogenic treatment? I don’t know, and I really don’t care. All I know is that the three Cryotone tubes I’ve been using for more than 300 hours simply sound right…..as right as any preamp tube I’ve used across almost four decades of tube preamp use. I’m always curious about other’s experiences with various tube purchases. BicycleJoe, can you describe your personal listening experiences with NOS tubes compared to highly specialized Cryotone treated tubes? Not that I’m opposed to science, but the last time I purchased a piece of audio gear based on science was back in the late 70’s….maybe early 80’s. Back then I couldn’t wait to get my annual Audio Magazine Equipment Directory in order to pick out my next piece of gear……based strictly on science and measurements of course. I still have several copies of the annual Audio Equipment Directory, and I smile when I see them. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/26/22 at 08:02:34 Great review of the Non Scientific Article, you sure showed me in minute detail how easy it is for you to obfuscate and ignore the issue. Not one link that leads to an article that confirms cryogenic treatment on a tube structure inside a vacuum has any positive affect on tube performance. Mullard, Amperex, RCA, Bell Labs, Sylvania, Western Electric, Siemens, Tung-sol, Phillips, Tesla, General Electric, Telefunken, Westinghouse, USAF, NASA, SMERSH or UNCLE remain silent on the issue, not a one have embraced the cryogenic treatment of metals inside a vacuum environment. https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=RfzlBwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=cryogenic+effect+on+metals+in+a+glass+electronic+vacuum+tube&ots=4_1pZrGgJ3&sig=rnkiA66Wtz4nKSmGJEv1B-61edE#v=onepage&q&f=false |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Same Old DD on 06/26/22 at 16:25:36 Last I checked, my cryo'ed hammer sounded better than the other non cryo'ed hammers I have, I think. We're in the weeds here guys. I said it a different way before, but the only opinions that affect your situation are your own. Don't give license for another "audio" opinion to affect your digestive processes when it comes to what audio you consume. Make your own way. Let the fun continue, though. I'm up for it. I'll put my cryo'ed hammer up against all others and your tubes! ;D |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Same Old DD on 06/26/22 at 16:46:48 Just to be most honest, I was short on rectifiers recently. I bought some from a recommended seller; good results in the way back past. They have arrived in perfect shape it seems and they all work fine, it seems. I put them back in the box for a time when I can actually have a sit down with them. I dropped coin on four. Two were cheapish and two were the same but cryo'ed, but the same damn tubes. That actually took more doing than I wanted to do. This is the problem I have had entering this discussion with anything usefull. I have only bought eight tubes in the even darker long past which were cryo'ed, but I had no comparisons as to an equal tube non cryo'ed to do an A vs B/Spy vs Spy/tomato vs tomahto type thing. Who has done this direct comparison, besides maybe, Steve? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/26/22 at 17:11:41 Quote:
DD, Have JJ 6SN7's, JJ EL34's and on order JJ 5AR4's. If these stock tubes are same source as Cyrotone should be able to do a little A/B testing. Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Same Old DD on 06/26/22 at 17:28:46 Sounds like positive progress toward exploring things in a meaningful way through this dilemma we all face. Take notes. :o ;) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/26/22 at 18:17:31 At home testing is still subjective testing it is not a scientific opinion, if it were only that simple MannytheSeaCow didn't like the link I provided in addition to Brandt Jessee's opinion [edit]We do not offer cryo treatment to our tubes. We have consulted with mechanical and electrical engineers about the process. While it does have benefits by relaxing stress in metal parts (the process is used by the military on weapons parts and aircraft parts) it does nothing to tubes. The critical metal parts of a tube are sealed inside, in a vacuum, so the coolant never touches those parts that need the treatment. Hench no effect or change happens to the operating parts of the tube. We do not sell smoke, mirrors, or snake oil.[/edit] Another point I have been waiting to put forward since we know Cryotone uses rebranded JJ tubes for their special process (Is it patented?) tailored to each tubes specific needs why hasn't JJ gotten into the CRYO Business? or any of the other Russian or Chinese manufacturers gone this route? I've presented the book Cryogenic Process Engineering By Klaus D. Timmerhaus, Thomas M. Flynn Where they cover CRYOGENIC process's in detail without covering the phenomena of how to affect Metal parts of diverse metallurgic structures inside a VACUUM, must of slipped their minds. So as the article is still the majorities favorite reason why Cryogenics are valid scientifically because the article isn't up to their standards instead we get obfuscation and resistance to the opinion of the Industry. Manny the sea cow said he could use google scholar. I wish he would or someone would, anyone. Mr. Thomas perhaps? Because using google scholar I can find none except the above referenced book Cryogenic Process Engineering By Klaus D. Timmerhaus, Thomas M. Flynn https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=RfzlBwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=cryoge#v=onepage&q&f=false Manny the sea cow said Quote:
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Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Ellsworth on 06/26/22 at 22:19:04 This has been a really interesting thread. I don’t care about the science but do care about longevity and how tubes sound. A couple weeks ago I received the cryoed 6p15p driver tubes for my 25th anniversary Zen. Prior to using these tubes, I was using the stock 6p15p tubes. Rectifier and input tubes are a Philips NOS rectifier from Upscale and a NOS Siemens 7308. I have tried a lot of different tubes in these positions and settled on this combination. Without going into tons of audiophile descriptions, the new cryoed tubes were a nice improvement. I sensed no brightness and felt like I got more transparency and depth. . Without a doubt, tube selection can be very personal depending on the system and desired sound qualities. The cryoed driver tubes from Warthen were worth the expense in my system. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 06/27/22 at 01:04:36 Quote:
Well said, Ells. I really don’t care about the science either. Bottom line is, do these tubes sound better than others YOU'VE tried in YOUR amp, and will they outlast others that YOU’VE tried. Only time will tell the latter. But, for a start, if these cryoed tubes sound great in your amp, you are on your way. Just my 2 cents… Geno |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 06/27/22 at 01:33:11 I like to say no one (as far as I know) every bought a Stradivarius or a Rembrandt or a Chateau Margaux based on science and I’m not going to buy my audio gear based on science either. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/27/22 at 03:06:28 Quote:
Yes Lets Throw Science And Logic Right Out The Window And Drink The Chateau Margaux Koolaid If it's good enough for Ted Williams its good enough for me. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tooppy on 06/27/22 at 08:27:52 Quote:
After all there are some reasons why we praise his products, and I doubt he has been baffled by Cryo. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/27/22 at 12:37:14 Tooppy Quote:
Now I Didn't invoke Steve's name out of respect because he would never offer such weak illogical reasons why there is no need for scientific explanation. Nor do I believe he would intentionally obfuscate my main points as many here have clumsily done with rhetoric, hyperbole and subjective opinions. I truly believe Steve has demonstrated to the full extent of his abilities why he believes the 18 dB difference between two signals demonstrate the superiority of the Cryo tubes when a left and right channel is compared as a A/B test. While not exactly the scientific method it is enough to convince many people because they want to believe it (as amply demonstrated above) no matter what others say. I still think the jury's out on that exercise as proof positive. One would need to go further in their examinations to be conclusive. There may be other causes for those discrepancies. Steve's best effort experiment didn't strictly follow the scientific method examining all the questions surrounding the efficacies of cryogenically treating the bits and pieces of a electronic tube inside a vacuum envelope. He did demonstrate to the best of his ability with the equipment at hand that when compared on the scope there is an 18db gap between the two measurements.This is the only objective result that supports his overall belief which when examined still remains a subjective opinion and does not prove that Cryogenically treated Vacuum tubes are affected in anyway. Comparing them to the high value Chinese tubes or the stock tubes that Decware ships as OME doesn't seem to me the same as comparing them to vintage hand selected NOS tubes. And more information would be needed about the hand selected tubes process on both sides of the fence. Does the hand selection process include testing and is measurement a part of that testing, furthermore are the 2 sections of each triode tested for balance, are they matched on both sides of the amp? Is channel A tube matched to it's equivalent Channel B tube ? These are all things that need to be included in the scientific method. Now Flat Earther's aside I for one would repeat my solicitation of a study reflecting the opinion of Industry Leaders; Mechanical & Electrical Engineers and Scientists. Either way one that confirms or denies that diverse metallurgic components inside a vacuum envelope are improved upon by Cryogenic treatment. To be clear not anecdotes that are strictly hearsay but real data, real facts, real science. By this time it's been 48 hours since I was told there is a body of work on the subject on Google scholar, I have not been able yet to find even one and MannyTheSeaCow has not produced one explaining Quote:
Just one is necessary Manny, cut and paste if you must, now don't be confused. We are not talking about Cryogenically treating metal inside a vacuum environment such as is used to weld Titanium. We are exploring the efficacy of Cryogenic Treatment on diverse metal parts inside a vacuum sealed glass envelope from the outside. Until someone cares to produce one of these reports from the vast bodies of work available addressing these exact concerns in support of either position I will leave this topic alone and consider the argument tabled until such time. "Thank you for choosing JJ ELECTRONIC! We do not offer cryogenically treated vacuum tubes. Best regards, Julia Jurcova sales manager -- JJ ELECTRONIC, s.r.o. A. Hlinku 3 ZIP: 022 01 Cadca, Slovak Republic tel.: +421 41 4304 120 fax.: +421 41 4304 130 info@jj-electronic.com www.jj-electronic.com" |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 06/27/22 at 15:57:41 BicycleJoe, I think you and I both know that nothing I say is going to satisfy you. Your fragile ego has been hurt, and for that I have already publicly apologized to you. If cryotubes aren't right for you then don't buy them. It's that simple. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Same Old DD on 06/27/22 at 16:02:41 Edsonic said: This is too funny - - " and later performed audio listening tests [of cryo'd tubes] using a Fender ‘Deluxe Reverb’ guitar amp." . . . "The amp didn’t sound more “holographic” or ” possess more subtle inner resolution”. " - You've never spent the better part of some terrible nights running around backstage dealing with a prima donna guitar player, have you? :o I have considered keeping a cattle prod for those players. If I had one on a wristband watch or pager looking thing (Possible, these days!), I would have. Then USE it and respond, "What was that? Damn! Was that you? Please don't do that AGAIN!" ... and then buzz them again. "I asked you not to do that! Please stop. Fix your cords, man!" Then walk away, cautiously, leaving them to wonder what they had done with their guitar rig that shocked them, again. ;D A hard like, here, Ed. But, yeah, hard to find any parallels there with what we seek and the simple questions not yet addressed, let alone something answered. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 06/27/22 at 16:33:41 For those concerned about the validity of cryogenic treatment of the vacuum tubes in question, how about conducting your own study? If what Don sells are JJ tubes, cryogenically treated, then how about a simple comparison? Buy a few of a particular type of Wathen tubes, buy a few of the same of regular JJ tubes, and have a shootout. It should be easy to judge with a simple listening session. The only variable that will take some time is the question of longevity. Good luck, and keep us posted on the results of your experiment ;-) Geno |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 06/27/22 at 17:13:39 I logged on to answer a couple of pm's and I decided to see if anything had changed in the tenor of the forum. Sad to say it has, it's worse as shown by this thread! It has prompted me to one final post, this it. Let me make something clear, this post is not intended as an effort to change anyones mind, here's why: Quote:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/quantum-jitter-lets-heat-travel-across-vacuum Interesting science do you not THINK! Heat can travel through empty space by means of radiation and now some thing new that always has been... Evidently "In quantum mechanics empty space can never be truly empty"..." heat transfer is the result of the Casimir effect" and a rather interesting experiment verified the theory. Imagine that, THINK about this: Quantum jitter lets heat travel across a vacuum! Does this prove that cryogenic treatment works through a vacuum? NO! But it certainly gives question to the assertion that it doesn't! The more we discover the less we know. What we do know is the for every effect there has to be a cause. In this case the effect is found in Cryotone tubes. My ears tell me that and I will not deny my senses. So what is the cause? I don't know. I'm not a physicist. But that doesn't mean there isn't one. It just means we haven't found it YET! Evidently there are those with credentials that in time may provide an answer. Is Science News credible? Look it up and decide for yourself. As far as Steve goes... it's through my connection with him and the posts of those who are respectful and open minded in their posts that I have been able to put together a very satisfying system. Don Wathen's efforts as commented on by Steve went a long way to me being able to achieve that. Now for the next step on the journey... streaming. I'm about to take possession of the new Lumin U2 Mini. Onto other things and it's been a slice! Stay safe, everyone. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/27/22 at 18:03:31 They look similar, but I would say they're not a 100% match. At least not to my JJ EL34's. ![]() Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Doug on 06/28/22 at 05:02:15 Two additional Cryotone tubes were added to the mix this evening. An ECC88 as input tube in my CSP3, along with a 5AR4 rectifier. I really like the Cryotone 6SN7’s driving the WE300B’s in my power amp, but the immediate difference made by swapping in these two new tubes in the CSP3 was stunning. There was a huge increase in those things that make music sound like live music versus a recording. I listened to only one recording—the SHM CD version of Handel’s Water Music as played by Pinnock and The English Concert—and it sounded way better than I’ve ever heard it. The recording space seemed significantly larger. The positioning and size of the various string sections became very clear…..like never before. Bass notes were presented with more far more clarity than I’ve ever experienced. Though I have listened to this recording hundreds and hundreds of times, I heard all sorts of intricate details in the recording that I never knew were there; and that was a thrilling experience. And the realistic timbre of the instruments was incredible. I am floored by what I heard tonight. Even if the Cryotones don’t have the long life spans that they are said to have, I’m 100% sold on their sound. They are fantastic music makers in my system, in my music room, heard by my ears. I won’t be going back to all of my trusty NOS favorites of the past, nor to my former favorite current production rectifier, the Sophia 274B Aqua. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Same Old DD on 06/28/22 at 12:57:20 Joman, I hope you find a way to reconsider. Stick this wave out and we'll all get back to just enjoying our chosen hobby. I don't know you from Adam or Cain, but I have learned from your thoughtful posts and experience, most especially because yours are different from mine. Most attempt to act civilized and I would suggest that the percentages of the civilized to the flame throwers are on our side. I can asure you that if I question an opinion, it is because I might need to establish a bit more background, find the mantle even, to have a single chance to understand. I believe from witnessing that most are even more gentlemanly and we can trust each other to continue to build upon some already established, solid bedrock, definitely worth saving. Let the storm pass and enjoy the quiet before the next one. Please. As always, too many metaphors, but stick it out, pal! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 06/28/22 at 14:13:27 I agree, DD. I usually hesitate to post and am now sorry that I ever entered this debate. I come here to learn not to fight. Thanks for sharing your experience, Doug. I look forward to my tubes arriving and doing some critical listening too. I guess that is what has drawn me back to tubes after all these years- it always amazes me how much we can change our systems just by swapping tubes. And it doesn’t always have to be better or worse, sometimes just different flavors for different recordings or cartridges. But sometimes those great ones grab us by the ears! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JBzen on 06/28/22 at 14:45:59 Quote:
All this talk of heat transfer in a vacuum is questionable. What about heat transfer thru metal pins of the tube by conduction sucking heat out of the various materials in the tube with different equalizing temperature times when dipped in liquid nitrogen? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/28/22 at 16:13:16 Mannytheseacow, Wish you did post about the baffles you built. Interested on your thoughts, something to add to your thread: Lii F-15 Open Baffles. Thanks, Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 06/28/22 at 16:16:01 MannyTheSeaCow I wasn't fighting with you. This is not what I call a fight. I was having a discussion about Cryogenic tubes, You took exception to the second source I provided saying it was not up to scientific standards, on second look I see your point about that often referenced opinion. It is not germane to Hi-Fidelity reproduction. If You are offended and feel I was fighting with you I assure you that was not my intention. My first response to your post was by all means let's have a link. But you also replied saying that there was a body of work on the subject. I've asked repeatedly for you to produce one reference as evidence either way in support of your opinion and against the opinion of Industry Leaders, Mechanical Engineers, Electrical Engineers from your scholarly subscriptions. Then you said you didn't wanna leave links. To this I said then then go ahead and cut and paste it. A very reasonable response to your counter argument. That you think I am throwing down the gauntlet and fighting with you puzzles me when it would be much simpler to just support your argument with a quote or reference. (again I quote you) [edit]So I started typing keywords like “cryo vacuum nickel”, “cryo molybdenum vacuum”, etc. and was getting dozens of results of real scientific research, with a hypothesis, methods, and results, that was published in peer reviewed scientific journals. [/edit] So you are wrong I would be satisfied if you published some "real scientific research, with a hypothesis, methods, and results, that was published in peer reviewed scientific journals" from the dozens you found that counters the opinion of many. Quote:
Further comments I made are not directed solely at you. When I did quote you verbatim I used your name. I've given you every opportunity to substantiate your opinion with the facts you claim that have been published. Aside from sarcasm I have done nothing to insult you or fight with you. When people say I don't care about science (and I'm not saying you said that but many people have) I can only shake my head. If you had published the evidence you claim to have multiple references to this discussion would've been over days ago. Don't take it personally but take a stand on your opinion. It is you that turned this into an argument rather than a discussion. You never hurt my feelings, I am much thicker skinned than that. An apology was unnecessary but what was necessary was for you to support your position that you stated was available to you. It does seem to me after reading this thread that many people don't even understand the question. It is not whether you can transfer heat or cold through the vacuum of outer space, or if inside a vacuum cryogenics can be used to treat and cause affect on various metals. The question is whether cryo affects the various metal parts inside a glass envelope vacuum in a positive way by treating it from the outside of the Glass Sealed Envelope Vacuum Tube........ That people don't care is meaningless to the facts, if people wanna judge with their ears that's fine. I myself can't hear anything above 12k, but I do believe that even though I can't hear frequencies above that range they do affect other frequencies harmonically that I can hear. This is why I love tubes and appreciate their sound. A quote from H.L Mencken comes to mind. "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. ..." To others in the chorus all I can say is enjoy the music. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JBzen on 06/28/22 at 17:11:22 Quote:
I agree with this totally. Except my threshold of hearing is below 12k. Oh! The issues of the aged! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by johnnycopy on 06/29/22 at 04:21:27 I own Lii audio references with silver 10 drivers Fast, superbly transparent, and with the right music the most startlingly real presentation you can enjoy. Micro and macro dynamics that absolutely startle. With less well recorded music, they appreciate the zrock2. I also own hawthorne audio reference trios which are less resolving than the Lii Audio speakers. Less transparent, but certainly more enjoyable across the less well recorded music. Add a more resolving tube to the hawthornes and I could be a happy camper hearing improvement. Add the same more resolving tube to the Lii Audio and I may sense too much of a good? thing. System matters, our reviews will differ, If you are interested, and they are free to try, little risk. If you have no interest, little reason to engage. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 06/29/22 at 16:24:47 So the JJ El34s are similar to the El34-WC in appearance. However they sound much different sonically. Mostly how clean they sound especially in the mid-range. Smooth, detailed and they moved the needle towards what I was hoping for. "Soft and powerful" is how I described the music my young ears heard almost fifty years ago. Now with my older ears and better gear It's 1973 and I'm home again. Can't believe I did it. The search is finally over. Am I happy with the Cryotone tubes? Yes! Will I purchase more? Yes Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 07/01/22 at 02:12:06 My cryo tubes arrived earlier this week and I have about 16 mixed hours listening on them so far. I’m running a Zkit with the 25th anniversary mods into Lii f15 open baffles, nothing fancy on the front end, just Amazon Music on an iPhone directly into RCA. My previous tubes have been NOS Russian 6P15P-EV, matched Svetlana SV83, military Voskhod 6N1P, Russian mica black plate 6N5P, and a NOS 6N5P-EV from Decware. So only diode rectification, no tube rectifier. Of these, the Svetlana and Decware combination has sounded best. The Decware has been most dramatic, where the addition of this tube made the center channel voices and instruments jump up about 2 ft above the speakers and 10 ft beyond the back wall. For the addition of the cryos I first listened to my existing system with some music ranging from jazz to rock to electronic with which I am very well acquainted. I then switched out for the cryo 6P15P-WV and repeated the same music. Then I added in the cryo ECC88-WC and listened to the same music again. This is how I’ve spent my week. Swapping, listening, taking notes, repeat. First of all, holy moses… the 6P15P-WV sound incredible right out of the box. Nothing sounded bad or harsh. Instruments all had such separation such that I have never heard. Lower register strings sound live like they are in the room with me. Cymbals decay forever on their own plane while the rest of the music carries on. The detail is incredible. I did notice these things run hot. They emit a significant amount more heat than the Svetlanas. Also, they have a small amount of background noise while all of my previous tubes have run dead silent. The noise is only a distraction when the music stops, and the brilliance is worth the small amount of background noise in my opinion. The ECC88-WC added in then sounds good. It didn’t detract from the spatial beauty of the 6P15P-WV, but didn’t particularly add any additional magic. It sounded good, again not harsh or edgy, round and full, but honestly not quite as deep and separated of a sound stage as the 6N5P-EV that I got from Steve. Maybe the cryo input tube will break in a little more with time. I guess I’ll just have to keep listening… a first world problem, for sure. :) So that’s the status on my system in my room. No regrets here. Obviously longevity will show as time goes on. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Same Old DD on 07/02/22 at 02:39:15 Hey, Joe, keep your 240Tis. Exploring OB systems can still happen if you want. Have you thought about rebuilding your crossovers from scratch using upgraded modern parts? Or having them done for you. I have done so on similar "old" JBL speakers. I kept the original crossovers completely intact, in case I ever sold them to a hardcore originalist and just built new ones. Everyone talks about capacitor upgrades, but I have found that replacing everything with new, including 40 year old, darkening copper coils adds so much to clarity and smoothness as well. This link shows the schematic for your crossover. Didn't know if you had that handy. http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/240Ti%20ts.pdf EDIT: I realize now that's where your blow up detail came from. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by johnnycopy on 07/02/22 at 06:10:03 BicycleJoe, Here are a couple pics of the hawthorne reference trios You can see the big Mundorf caps in the xover and it’s only servicing the tweeter and midrange. The 4 bass drivers are fed directly from 2 rythmik amps with its own eq. The tweeter is concentric, screwing directly into the centre of the midrange. One of the mods to that tweeter was removing its back cover, making it basically open baffle as well. Even though the xover parts are premium it is still a little more complex load for an amp to manage than 1 full range driver in the Lii audio reference. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by johnnycopy on 07/02/22 at 06:14:23 Second pic here |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 07/20/22 at 19:04:41 Has anyone tried the Wathen 6SN7 in place of their ECC88? I had been using an RCA smoked glass 6SN7 in my Zen, but replaced it with a Wathen ECC88, and I like the Cryoed tube better. So that has made me want to try one of their 6SN7's too. Thanks, Geno |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by HockessinKid on 07/20/22 at 19:20:58 Geno, I am using one with an adapter in the front position on my CSP3 w/ 25th mods. Very holographic presentation, had smoked glass RCA in previously. HK |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe on 07/20/22 at 20:51:54 This is the ebay sellers upgraded xcrossover compared to the stock JBL xcrossover along with the JBL 240Ti's, each one is built by hand there is a three month backlog on getting these upgraded crossovers built by this gentleman on eBay loudspeaker-chef. That's why my rig is temporarily down. ![]() |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 07/20/22 at 21:10:25 Thanks for the response Roger. Hope you are doing well. I guess that will be the next tube on the list for me to try. Best, Geno |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by HockessinKid on 07/20/22 at 23:39:08 Geno, Thanks for your note, I'm doing great. Looks like things have "toned down" a bit here on the forum, which is a good thing IMHO. I checked in a few times during my forum sabbatical and was happy to learn about the Sarah 300b amplifier Steve has been building. Intrigued me enough to put in a pre-order to get in the que. Hope to see it sometime in 2024😎. HK |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Geno on 07/21/22 at 16:14:28 Roger, I have an SE84 at 530 on the list. I was scanning through the long list the other day, and noticed your name and order for a 'Sarah'. Very cool. Congrats! Best, Geno |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 07/31/22 at 04:18:30 This is a wicked little secret that I am happy to share with you. If you own a Zen Triode amplifier -- any vintage -- you qualify. ![]() You will need an adapter for this magical offering from Cryotone, the 5670-WC / 396A pictured above. I don't know what it costs yet or if they even have it on the site for sale, but trust me, you'll want one. The sound is textured and clean with just wonderful presence and balance. The detail is impressive. Highly recommend. I am listening to it in an Anniversary modded SE84UFO2 and don't want to take it out! For those who want to step up the next level beyond the 6N1P or 6922 this should be a pretty sure shot. Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 07/31/22 at 05:29:35 Very interesting. I really like 5670 types in my UFOs, and a cryo’d one may very well be enough to make me take the cryo plunge. But I don’t see them on the website yet. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 07/31/22 at 17:36:00 These tubes are live on the Wathan site as of this morning: https://www.wathenspeakers.com/store/p81/5670-WC_%28396A%29.html |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Rhtubes on 07/31/22 at 22:45:20 Just an FYI for Decware users; garage1217.com looks to be a reasonable USA made alternative to the eBay made in China tube adapters. At least I think they are made in the USA. I have not formally confirmed it with the manufacturer. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by HockessinKid on 07/31/22 at 23:25:34 I have ordered adapters from garage1217.com. Extremely high quality, hand-soldered by a professional and made in the USA. Super nice. HK |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 07/31/22 at 23:36:46 I ordered a pair and had bad luck with them. Each guide pin of the tube I inserted broke off inside the base, so I can only really use that pair of tubes with those adaptors now, and those adaptors with those tubes. Sigh. And they sounded a tiny bit "thin" to me in comparison to other bases I used, I thought that might season but I'm not sure they have. I'll not order again. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by tempest62 on 08/01/22 at 02:13:40 Quote:
Perfect. Brad |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 08/02/22 at 05:07:47 I'll be anxious to hear what everyone who tries these thinks of the sound compared to their favorites... Meanwhile we will be doing some critical evaluations of the Cryotone 300B tube later this week. Later in the month I will be doing some evaluations of the Cryotone 6N1P-WC. Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/22 at 06:02:59 Check out the SEWE300B thread: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1649817393 We did some deep evaluation of the Cryotone 300B-WC as well as their 6922 in the new amplifier. Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Dr3wman on 08/05/22 at 17:19:53 This may have been addressed previously - I see that there are two tube bundles for the MKV available on the Wathen/Cryotone site. One is with 5AR4 rectifiers, the other 5U4GB rectifiers. I know so little about tubes, any insight/knowledge as to the differences would be appreciated. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tooppy on 08/05/22 at 18:47:54 Here is what Don says about it : "The 5U4GB-WC has more of an organic sound because it has a little more softness in delivery of power. Useful for tubes that tend to be on the harsh side like the 6N1P-EV and the 6P15P-EV. The 5AR4-WC delivers power with a touch more punch but is still nice and organic in nature. " |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 08/05/22 at 19:02:44 I rolled both CryoTone 5A4s and 5U4s into my Torii. FWISW, I found both sounded excellent and a noticeable improvement over the original 5U4s that came with my Torii from Decware. My preference: 5A4s. I placed one of the 5u4s into my CSP 2+ preamp, so it also plays a significant role in my overall sound production. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/07/22 at 01:57:31 Don Wrote his new Cryogenic Rectifier is Quote:
Does that mean he is saying UFO's comes with stock tubes that tend to be harsh ::) oh The Rachel too Oh My what should I do |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 08/07/22 at 02:13:24 BicycleJoe Lo-Fi, Don't worry you have a little time to figure it out. ![]() |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 08/10/22 at 04:46:15 Quote:
We all know that the 6N1P is warm and smooth, so at first I couldn't understand the comment. I even talked to Don about it by phone. I still didn't understand until tonight when I realized that he is used to hearing stuff that he has treated. One of the things treatment does is reduce the sound of graininess, replacing it with density and smoothness. I am sure his ear keys on this or he wouldn't be able to do what he does. So listening to a cryo treated tube of his probably comes off as smoother even if it has more detail. I will find out as I plan to listen to the stock 6N1P vs, a Cryotone version of it to confirm my suspicions and will report the results of what I hear soon. As soon as I do this I will also be doing the 6P15P vs the Cryotone version in the SE84UFO amplifiers. There will be a full report on that as well. I've already listened to the Cryotone versions enough to know you'll probably want some. These tubes are really special, as they say Cryotone on one side and Zen on the other. I will post pics when I do the test. -Steve : ) |
Title: Cryotone Post by Steve Deckert on 08/22/22 at 03:16:41 UPDATE 8-21-2022 I am listening to our SE84UFO25 with a full compliment of Cryotone tubes. Over the past two years I have rolled the very best N.O.S. tubes through it, all were great but this is really killing it. The difference isn't subtle. It takes this amplifiers ability to make sounds just pop out of thin air to a new level. It feels like it has more power too. Even on modest speakers the difference is amazing. The longer I listen to these tubes and go back and forth between amps with and without the more sold I am. For those lurkers who may not even own a Decware amplifier, and are thinking this Cryotone stuff is a gimmick... it's not. And for those who think other Cryo companies take it to this level, they don't. Don and Roger sent me a pair of the 300B's to evaluate not long ago and in the process of treating them, they broke two pair. Those tubes aren't cheap and Don well knows how to treat them without any risk of breaking them. This is why we get along so well because I also push the envelope often at great expense to myself so I can relate. This has been my first real experience with the new Cryotone 6P15P-WC output tubes in a Zen Triode and I couldn't be more pleased. Seriously. I remember back in 2000 when I was looking into equipment to cryo treat our stuff. It was too much money. I turned to a company that was already doing it and had them cryo treat some of these same output tubes. My first impression which I can clearly remember, was that the highs are gone. The tubes were smoother but lacked dynamics and sounded rolled off. I never used them after the initial testing because I didn't like the sound. Compared to that "treated" or should we say "mistreated" pair of output tubes, the Cryotone are in a completely different world. They have more of everything while getting buttery smooth and dense. Nothing is lost, there are no tradeoffs. So it comes easy for me to believe that all the social media arguments over the validity of Cryo Treatment is meaningless because none of these people have heard Cryotone, or are aware of their process. So the Cryotone 6P15P-WC tubes for the Zen Triode amplifiers are a THUMBS UP in my book! Steve P.S. If you are looking to invest in Cryotone tubes because you're not happy with the way your stereo sounds, it is the wrong reason and your results will be limited. (see below) If on the other hand you love your sound and doubt it can get better...that would be the right reason. We only hear the fidelity rise to the limitations placed upon it by the weakest link in the chain. That chain being the entire component path, speakers, placement, cables, connectors and room acoustics. Only a single one in this rather long chain of variables will limit the whole show. It's like taking DSD and smashing it down to MP3. In systems that have minimized all off these weak links to a point where the chain becomes fairly strong, something like these tubes can be the difference between aged stakes and hamburger. At that point the cost pays for itself quickly. A bad room, or cables, or speaker placement, etc., etc., is like burning your tongue and then ordering stake and complaining that it tastes like hamburger and then requesting a $200 bottle of special salt to try and make it taste better. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JBzen on 08/22/22 at 11:20:57 Quote:
Very wise advice! Like free range chickens compared to caged; wild caught salmon compared to farmed; hydroponic vegetables compared to backyard the pallet don't deceive and so do the ears when the music plays. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 08/22/22 at 16:10:29 What input tube and rectifier were you using Steve? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 08/22/22 at 16:28:32 Maybe we express ourselves differently but I certainly would not say the Cryotone output tubes (6P15) are in "a totally different world." I do think there's an improvement, the process removing a bit of lower treble mud is how I hear it. We all hear things and describe things differently. I hope they last about three times longer than those untreated as that's about the price difference. . . |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by tempest62 on 08/22/22 at 18:06:28 Like I posted before: According to Don, the Cryotones don't wane off in terms of SQ as they age; they sound great like they did just burned in, all the way to their eventual death. If true, this is utterly remarkable and one of the greatest reasons to buy them no matter what else, period. Anyone disagree? Brad |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 08/22/22 at 21:06:09 This doesn't seem a difference than my experience with the best NOS signal and rectifier tubes I've owned. New production. . . well maybe that's different. . . I sort of give up on new production tubes early so don't know how they sound when they get old. Power tubes. . . they do fade a bit before being really inferior. We only have the claim of the company really that these wouldn't do that. And there's no longevity history on these tubes yet to factor in. In my case I don't mind changing power tubes every year or so and I have about 20 pair in reserve and at this point would rather buy from Steve than Cryotone at considerably higher Cryotone prices. Just my personal choice. Hoping to have a 300B experience next and will probably spring for a hopefully five year experience with Western Electric tubes. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 08/25/22 at 04:01:17 CYROTONE UPDATE Some important revelations about the Cryotone 300B tubes in our Sarah amplifier! https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1649817393/506#506 -Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 08/27/22 at 03:33:02 As I continue to listen to the Cryotone 300B tube break in I came to an analogy that I think captures the difference in sound between the stock JJ and this tube. It's really quite a bit like listening to the difference between 33 and 45 RPM LPs. If you like the extra resolution, dynamics and presence of 45 RPM than this is a nice step in that direction. Which is to say that this seems to really be a common denominator with all Cryotone tubes. It is how I would describe the "Cryotone Sound". -Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 08/27/22 at 03:49:29 Quote:
As I understand it, the reason tubes gradually wear out in the first place is because the coatings on the cathode break down. It seems logical to assume that the coating quality would be enhanced by the Cryotone process as would be the metals underneath it. My guess is the emissions over time plot angle changes shape from a slope to more of a level line with a steeper roll off at the end -- but it's just speculation because I'm not the Cryo guru. If it proves to be true and I'm sure it will, it IS a game changer, because I have lost count of the number of people who have ridden their pony until the legs wore down to nubs. Usually takes 5 to 7 years of daily operation and by the time something becomes obvious you can congratulate yourself for listening to the amp sound like crap for at least 3 years... soft, slow, weak. No different than taking your speakers out into the garage every year and replacing them with cheaper ones. Steve : ) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tooppy on 08/27/22 at 15:17:43 This is the avantage of solid state, you don't change your electronic components every 5 years. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/27/22 at 16:03:51 This is an article from 1944 on the technical aspects of a tube and the different components inside the valve and the metallurgy base metals and the coatings. It was during World War II that many supply shortages were created because of the war. It was the beginning of making compromises in the manufacturing as opposed to the classic years when they use platinum, titanium, silver and gold. Tubes are no longer manufactured in this method, most of these metals are un-obtainium or on the list of heavy metals no longer safe to use and have been replaced by substitute coatings. There are several substitute coatings and not all are of the highest quality or purity necessary for premium sound qualities. Using the highest purity coatings available is paramount to good sound. Enjoy the article, it explains why current production tubes do not measure up compared to a true NOS. Top of the line tubes like the Western Electric do everything they can to deliver the highest quality all of the Chinese tube‘s have the same hereditary they just have different factories summer new companies but it is still the same industry only privatized. I really do not know JJ. https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/chemical-highlights-of-tube-manufacturing/ HEATING THE PLATE ON THE EXHAUST MACHINE. The water-cooled copper coil shown around the tube carries the high frequency current to make the plate red hot. ![]() |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 08/31/22 at 05:10:29 Quote:
If you mean output devices, it's true. They're soldered in. They only get replaced if you short the speaker wires together and blow one or more up. But yes, you are of course right. It as well as the consistency and lower costs are a big appeal and in most cases is the most cost effective solution. But, just to play devil advocate... a little story. Prior to going online and manufacturing tube amplifiers, Decware was a pro audio company that designed and installed sound systems for primarily night clubs. We would scratch build all the speakers and use off the shelf amplification. We did that and also re-coned loudspeakers and designed competition car audio systems. Thanks to solid state amplifiers this trio of businesses meant there was no shortage of blown speakers to fix. The biggest problem in most of these clubs was amplification. We typically ran 400 watt RMS amplifiers into each driver to keep the headroom up and ran Imperial Folded Horns for subs. You could feel the bass in your chest when you drove by outside in your car. But no matter how good you make it, they will try to clip it. Club owners, and DJ's are not a sound systems friends. Anyway since they are played every day for 12 hours at near clipping levels and beyond, after about 6 months the amps would get tired. The bass hit would soften and the distortion would go up. The transistors were beaten to near death. We would install new amps and everything would sound great again. After a few years this got cumbersome and expensive. To solve the problem we designed and built 60 watt class AB tube amplifiers using KT88 output tubes or 6550 and replaced all the solid state amplifiers in all of our systems. The 400 watt amplifiers were replaced with 60 watt tube amplifiers. The bass hit was so much deeper and the rest of the music sounded far more listenable, juicy and forgiving. And actually got louder. There were no more blown or worn out speakers, and every year we replaced the output tubes in each amplifier (instead of the entire amplifier) and everything sounded brand new again. It saved us many thousands of dollars as well as the club owners. That was in the early 1990s and apparently people still talk about those Decware systems today in our local club scene. Just sayin... |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tooppy on 08/31/22 at 08:44:44 So my little note was useful .....juste to get your lovely enlightning story, thanks Steve ! Give us more like this. BTW, my UFO is going to be built soon.....I sweat [smiley=beer.gif] |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 09/01/22 at 02:46:17 Getting back to the Cryotone 300B tubes. I have been enjoying them for awhile now. While the tube sounds very different from the WE300B, it has that same make me stop working and walk into the sweet spot over and over because the sound is just so good. Steve |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 09/01/22 at 05:00:48 Quote:
Curious about these tubes. Haven't tried any of the 9 pins yet. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 09/01/22 at 05:17:05 Same here, Joseph. I’d be interested in trying them. The 5670 is very detailed but rather thin. I think I recall Lon saying something similar. It sounds great for voices, acoustic guitar, or violin but weak on anything with bottom end. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 09/01/22 at 14:36:48 Manny.... I have the Cryotone 5670 in my CSP 2+, and I agree with your detailed report, but I have not experienced it weak at the bottom end. Maybe that is because all the tubes in the preamp are Cryotones, so it functions better/differently within that set. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 09/02/22 at 02:05:07 Hmm, that’s interesting Tony. I’ll have to keep listening to it. I’m comparing it against the Wathan ECC88 and running Wathan 6p15p’s for power tubes. Could be your speakers just have a little more oomph than mine. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 09/07/22 at 20:42:02 Tony, I have to agree with you. I just got a new streamer and yeah, the bottom end is nice and tight on the 5670. Not over the top, but quite lovely. I'm actually really enjoying this tube today on a variety of music. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 09/13/22 at 03:03:58 I have so far found the tube to have a good balance in everything I've tried it in. I like the tight resolution in the midrange. Today I am using it with an adapter in the Sarah 300B amplifier and it's great! ![]() Word of warning... this is not the same adapter that one would use in most Decware amplifiers. Sometime these adapters will have pins 4 and 5 shorted together and then use pin 9. That works great in an amplifier wired for 12AX7's using 6.3 volts, but in an amplifier wired for 12AX7's using 12.6 volts it will burn up your amplifier. Same if you use it in a Decware amplifier expecting a 6N1P/6922, it will burn up your amplifier. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 09/20/22 at 04:03:41 The 5670 in Sarah is smoking my brain! You have to read this post: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1649817393/542#542 |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 09/20/22 at 13:30:17 Quote:
6N1P is for sale on the Cryotone website. Getting the feeling 5670 is preferred. Anyone try the 6NIP yet? Only down side using the Wathen CryoTone not turning on your system knowing your short on time. Once you begin it's difficult to stop. Shake it baby if you like this song do a nasty little dance every time I turn it on. Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 09/20/22 at 13:59:07 I have one on order but yet to receive it. Been playing with the 5670 off and on but I prefer the ECC88. It took a while for it to find its magic place but now when I don’t have it in it just sounds like something is missing. Excited to try the new 6n1p though. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 09/20/22 at 15:11:15 Manny, Looking forward to hear your thoughts on the 6n1p. ![]() |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JazztoGo on 09/20/22 at 17:52:32 Hello everyone, I have not posted on this site for a long time, but I do read it often. I have been buying decware stuff for years and current setuyp is Anniversary 25 amp and csp3 preamp with anny mods. I recently purchased and recieved some tubes from Cyrotone for my csp3. Now pretty sure my tubes in there were wearing down as I have not changed them in years and they play all day. With the new tubes everything just got better for my system, bass, treble, impact, space and now just playing around with songs. Don was amazing to deal with and talk to. I dont really know much about tubes or cyroing tubes but what i do know for me it made a very nice improvement alround. I also should mention i dont really have any expensive nos tubes. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 09/21/22 at 00:21:57 Quote:
Hi JazztoGo, totally agree with you. Asked Don about the 6n1p last time we spoke. Little early in the process to talk about it. Was hoping to get some third party perspective about the 9 pin tubes. Don is great to chat with if you have any problems or questions. Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 09/24/22 at 05:08:19 6N1P will be our next evaluation... but today it is all about the Cryotone 12AU7-WCL Long Plate gold pin tubes... Please read this post in the 300B development thread: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1649817393/544#544 |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 10/01/22 at 15:41:14 Following up on the cryo 6n1p I’ve got over 100 hours on this tube and starting to get a feel for it. I’ve tried a number of tubes of varying quality since ditching my solid state amp and prior to trying the Wathan tubes the best for me was a random 6n1p I bought as a set of four on eBay for $11.95 from Russia. For whatever reason one random tube in this set just sounds great, better than some NOS 6n5p, a black plate, and a Decware 6n5p, all of which are lovely. Eventually I kicked up the cash to get the Wathan power tubes and the ECC88 pre. The 88 has been my go-to now, as I said above, everything else just sounds like something is missing. It has a slight eq effect that seems to accentuate the attack and resonance on bass and drums, with a crazy deep sound stage. Now trying the Wathan 6n1p, the 6n1p doesn’t stand out as accentuating anything. It’s just incredibly balanced and smooth. It doesn’t have any apparent boosts or cuts but it doesn’t sound like anything is missing either or leave me feeling like I need more of something. The sound stage isn’t quite as deep as the 88 but it is much wider. I would say if I could only have one tube the 6n1p would be the one. In many ways it sounds like the 5670 but doesn’t leave me with the “something’s missing” feeling. Switching back to my original 6n1ps it is quickly apparent what a smooth tube these are, but the cryo magic is immediately apparent. I’m hoping they last as long as they are reported to but really the price isn’t that bad considering what we spend on everything else. There is slightly less gain on the 6n1p but don’t let that steer you away. I can still easily hit 100dbs with room to spare with 2 watts into f-15s, not that I ever listen much over 80db. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 10/03/22 at 04:49:37 Manny, I'm happy to hear that the 6n1p has the Wathan magic. Was hoping it would. Great description of that magic. ![]() Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 10/08/22 at 17:02:52 Nice to see Don at Decfest. Wish I went even more. His descriptions and insight are spot on. Talking with Don about his tubes can lead to a very satisfying purchase. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 10/29/22 at 00:36:11 Yep these Wathen 6n1ps sure are clean and smooth. In the Torii gain is not lacking. Nice strong tube. Far superior than the stock 6n1ps that came with my amp. Comparable to a store-bought tomato to a homegrown tomato. If you like tomatoes. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Dr3wman on 10/29/22 at 00:47:57 I have an MKV that will be shipping soon, and have no current tube stock. I've considered buying the Cryotone MKV package that is offered, but have to save my sheckels. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by GroovySauce on 10/29/22 at 13:13:55 Dr3wman, I suggest waiting until you have some time on the amp before making a tube choice. My MKV was on the thin and lean side for the first 20-30 hours. Then the midrange and bass came in and it's glorious. The tubes will also need 20+ hours to settle. 40+ hours the amp is still changing. Once you have 50ish hours decide if you want to keep the sound signature or change direction. Tube selection can radically change the way the amp sounds. The discussions on the Torii MKIV tube rolling will be applicable to the MKV. You can also start a tread in the MKV section and get some suggestions. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Dr3wman on 10/29/22 at 16:12:24 I really appreciate your advice/insight. Seems like a pretty prudent course of action. Thank you, Andrew |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Glenn on 10/31/22 at 15:16:24 I am looking for advice matching Cyrotone tubes to UFO25 stock tubes. I have added the Cyrotone 6P15Ps to my UFO25 and can hear the difference. Any recommendations re Cyrotone tube to use in place of the Decware tobes that came with my amp? I am currently using the OA3 Voltage Regulator tube (on the Cyrotone site they seem to favour the OD3 for UFO25 amps with their bundles, but i have found the i prefer the OA3 to the OD3 provided with the UFO25 by Decware). Also, i am currently using the 6N5P input tube - but do not see this on the Cyrotone web site. Any thoughts which Cyrotone tube i should try in its place. Thanks in advance for all thought! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Palomino on 10/31/22 at 15:19:46 Following... |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 10/31/22 at 15:21:18 I've had a mixed experience with the Cryotone tubes. I first bought two 6NS7-WC for my SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with all the Anniversary Mods and to be honest to me it was like the Emperor's New Clothes in comparison to all the wows that others evoked upon them. I found that I preferred the sound of several old RCA 6NS7 that I had been using. And then I bought the 6P15-WC output tubes and after they seasoned in I do hear a bit of improvement--a bit of edge in the lower treble seemed cleaned up, but actually with my system with lots of gain-riding possibilities and a ZROCK2 I can make this cryo'd pair of tubes and the same tubes from Steve sound nearly identical. If the Cryotone tubes last far longer than those from Steve that will be a good purchase; time will tell. So I can recommend with a bit of enthusiasm the 6P15-WC output tubes for the UFO25 Cryotone offers especially if there is no ZROCK2 in the system. I probably won't be buying any more Cryotones. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Palomino on 10/31/22 at 15:34:09 I'm curious about other Cyrotone tubes people have tried. I bought the EEC88 and it was bright at first, now I find it to present a very clear, uncolored sound with great detail. I've left it in the system the last several months without any urge to swap. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Glenn on 10/31/22 at 15:53:54 Palomino: Which tube were you using before the ECC88 on your UFO25 and how does it compare in your view? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by HockessinKid on 10/31/22 at 17:04:42 Palomino, I am using Don's tubes in the following equipment: CSP3+ - 5U4GB-WC rectifier (Cryotone) - 6SN7 - WC input (Cryotone) - Reflector 6N5P outputs ZMA - OA3-WC regulators (2) (Cryotone) - Reflektor 6N5P inputs - Gold Lion KT77 outputs Modified Cambridge CXN V2 - ECC88-WC (2);(Cryotone) I enjoy this combination. HK |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Palomino on 10/31/22 at 17:10:50 Too many to remember. But my go to tube was a Reflector '74 or '75 6n23P silver shield, single getter tube. I just saw a pair on US Audio mart for $320 - LOL. I think I paid $50-$75 back before they became "popular". I'd describe the sound as similar although the Cyrotone is probably a touch more clear and detailed. I'd have to swap them out again to be sure. I can say I haven't felt the need to put the 6N23Ps back in. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 10/31/22 at 18:15:08 Hk, What's the skinny on the OA3-WC regulators? I prefer My Tung-Sol and RCA OA3 over the Sylvania. Only have Sylvania OB3. Was going to try a OB3-WC. Curious about your experience with them. Shocking how different they sound from the Sylvania to Tung-Sol. My collection of Cryotone: 6N1P - WC (2) 6SN7 - WC (quad set) 6SL7 - WC (2) 5AR4 - WC (2) EL34 - WC (quad set) And a free T-shirt thanks Don |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by HockessinKid on 10/31/22 at 19:25:28 jec3504, The Cryotone OA3's were recommended for my ZMA by GroovySauce. They are absolutely dead quiet.and reduced some minimal vibration noise I was experiencing. Definitely a worthwhile addition IMHO. HK |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 10/31/22 at 19:36:02 Hk, That's Good news having troubles finding a good OB3. Thanks for reply. Joseph |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by ArtMan on 10/31/22 at 21:13:37 Glenn, I have the UFO25 and have recently fully stocked my amp with Wathem tubes. These are the ones I would recommend: ECC88-WC 6P15P-WC 5U4GB-WC 0A3-WC (2) 0D3-WC I used to prefer the 0A3 for the VR input tube but the 0D3 really does sound better with the other Wathem tubes installed. The 5U4GB-WC has killer bass and delicate highs. It is especially outstanding. Hope this helps. Art |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by LiquidBlue on 10/31/22 at 22:18:54 Have you tried the 5AR4-WC as well? I’m wondering how they compare to the 5U4GB-WC, soundwise. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Glenn on 10/31/22 at 22:33:26 Art - thanks for your suggestions. I found the OD3 lacked highs and space compared to the OA3 when i rolled the Decware stock tubes. How did the Cyrotone OD3 compare, and in what way do you feel it sounds better in the fully Cryotone set up? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by ArtMan on 11/01/22 at 16:14:39 Glenn, prior to installing any of the Wathem tubes in my system, what I heard was similar to yours with the 0D3 and even the 0C3. After installing/burn-in the ECC88-WC, 6P15P-WC and 5U4GB-WC tubes, the sound of my system was at a new level and I once again rolled through the input regulator tubes. The lack of air with the 0D3 was gone and it sounded harmonically magnificent. Finally I ordered the 0D3 and 0A3 tubes. It furthered lowered the noise floor and the highs were airy and delicate. That was with the 0D3. I suggest you order the ECC88-WC and 5U4GB-WC tubes and let them burn-in. After that, I suggest retesting the VR tubes. The improvement with the new primary tubes will make obvious what you should order for your input VR tube. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by ArtMan on 11/01/22 at 16:27:37 I haven't tried the 5AR4-WC so I can't help in a comparison. The 5U4GB-WC sounds so good that I've been too busy listening to music to be tempted to order a 5AR4-WC. I have to admit some curiosity to try the 5AR4-WC but between the Wathem tubes, the Synergistic Research purple fuse and yesterday receiving my Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers, I have a lot of break-in to do. If there is anyone who has tried both, I am also curious about the comparison. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Glenn on 11/01/22 at 20:05:21 Art - Thanks you have helped me quite a bit. In the end i ordered both the OA3-WC and the OD3-WC. Worse case scenario is i keep one as a spare or sell it. FYI - Prior to this i started by upgrading to the 5AR4-WC and 6P15P-WCs - which greatly improved clarity and led me to this next round of rolling. The 5AR4-WC seems to have a bit more punch and slightly higher highs than the stock 5U4GB that came with the amp. I haven't yet ordered Wathams's 5U4GB-WC so i haven't made a true comparison vs. the 5AR4-WC. I will wait to see how it sounds once i install the ECC88 and taste test the OA3-WC and the OD3-WC. If i do in the future i will be sure to post. Cheers all! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by acousticsguru on 11/01/22 at 22:18:47 Referring to the voltage regulator for the input/driver tube? That's really a matter of personal preference and system synergy. In general, I've found that the more analytical sounding tubes (e.g. some but not all E88CC/6922 types) sound best with the 0D3 (and a rectifier like the GZ34 Metal Base), whereas warm-sounding tubes (e.g. the 6N1P) tend to pair best with the 0A3 or 0C3 (and perhaps a rectifier emphasizing treble extension, such as the GZ480), and of course everything in-between. In short, I don't think there's any one combination that'l sound best everywhere. Greetings from Switzerland, David. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by ArtMan on 11/02/22 at 18:32:27 Glenn, I like your choice. Just go all in. The magic is the combination of Wathem tubes. You have some fun times ahead. Art |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Glenn on 11/17/22 at 20:55:53 I thought i should provide an update on my Cryotone experiment. I have finished the upgrade and now have all Cryotone on my SE84UFO25: Rectifier = 5AR4, Rear Voltage Regulator = 2x OA3, Output = 2x 6P15P, Input = ECC88, Voltage = OD3 First, if you are undecided - go for it. I know there is some questioning in this thread about whether this is snake oil. I had the same concern. But the answer in my system is a resounding no. These tubes are wonderful. There was an immediate and almost heavenly improvement to the sound once I had replaced all tubes with Cryotone. And my system was no slouch before. Generally, i found the sound to be richer and more present. the bass kicked. And the mids . . . the mids have opened right up. Wide. Amazing. Everything just feels more musical. As for the tubes i chose, I echo Art's observation, "analytical sounding tubes (e.g. some but not all E88CC/6922 types) sound best with the 0D3 (and a rectifier like the GZ34 Metal Base), whereas warm-sounding tubes (e.g. the 6N1P) tend to pair best with the 0A3 or 0C3 (and perhaps a rectifier emphasizing treble extension, such as the GZ480). |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Steve Deckert on 12/06/22 at 20:27:42 ![]() |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/08/23 at 17:37:53 I have decided to give these a shot in my UFO2. Don was very responsive to all of my questions and very informative. I decided on the 5R4 rectifier and the EL84 output tubes. I want to hear these tubes for myself. I have heard what the 5R4 can do as I have been using a NOS 1960 RCA brown base. Some things I like, some things I don't. Let's see what the Cryotone's sound like. Cheers. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by CAJames on 01/08/23 at 19:07:09 Quote:
Do you mean the 5AR4 rectifier? Unless it is very new I don't think Wathen does 5R4. FWIW I've also tried the RCA double-D 5R4s and had a similar reaction to yours: some aspects are really nice, but others keep it from being from being a favorite. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/08/23 at 21:14:47 Yes, 5AR4; I need to remember to list these tubes correctly. Now if I can just figure out how to quote... |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 01/09/23 at 00:09:02 Hi Danny Boy In my SE84UFO, I currently have Wathen 5AR4 and 6P15P. Next week I should have the EL84 pair as well. Let's compare notes! :) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/09/23 at 02:07:59 Sounds good. What is your impression of the 5AR4 with the 6P15P? I had questioned Don about the 6P15P, but he really felt the EL84 was a better way to go. -Danny |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 01/09/23 at 18:51:31 Danny asked: What is your impression of the 5AR4 with the 6P15P? In my SE84UFO, I started by adding the 5AR4-WC and ended with the 6N1P-WC. Between those purchases, I added a pair of 6P15P-WC to complete the set - the tube you mentioned. The 6P15P-WC replaced another 6P15P pair that came with my amp. The difference was, to my ear, not that discernable. Not a bad change; it went more sideways than up and improved. Indeed not the dramatic difference I heard in my ToriiMKIV when I rolled CryoTone tubes there. After reading a positive review of the EL84-WC and talking with Don, I decided to try them. Once they arrive, I can return them if they do not outperform the 6P15P-WC. Stay tuned. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 01/09/23 at 19:02:36 That was my experience with the 6P15P-WC as well: different, not a big improvement--that said I have been using them and enjoying them, but I can put the last pair I got from Steve in the Monoblocks, do some adjustments, and not miss anything. The 6SN7-WC that I got beforehand though. . . I just can't enjoy those in my main system, they are just brighter and drier than I like an input tube to be, and a NOS pair or two I have I enjoy much more. Regarding EL84: I have tried them in the past, and just this last week was running a pair of Amperex Holland (which usually is a winning formula for me, I really like the sound of Dutch Philips tubes) and they're nice but. . .they seem blanketed with warmth and veiled to me in comparison to the 6P15P of either source. I've tried EL83 by Philips and by Mullard as well with similar results. I like the warmth at first, but miss a clarity and dynamics the 6P15P deliver. I also have converters and tubes of the ones you have on order as well, but suspect the same result will happen. I think I just need the "Hazen Grid Mod" now that I have been listening to it for so long, and those other tube types aren't influenced by it. In the Torris I had I could use tubes that weren't utilizing the Hazen Grid and not miss that so much, but in the SET amps. . . I have to have it now, something seems missing otherwise. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 01/09/23 at 19:21:23 "Hazen Grid Mod"??? I searched for references to Hazen Grid Mod going back to 2010, but none of the posts defined it. What is it? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 01/09/23 at 19:30:30 Also known as the "Christmas Comes Early" mod. https://www.decware.com/newsite/paper145.htm https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1243915681/all |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/10/23 at 07:19:15 Tony said: "After reading a positive review of the EL84-WC and talking with Don, I decided to try them. Once they arrive, I can return them if they do not outperform the 6P15P-WC. Stay tuned." I placed my order last Friday. I have no idea what to expect for delivery time. How long have you had your order in? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 01/10/23 at 15:27:34 Danny asked: I have no idea what to expect for delivery time. How long have you had your order in They were backed up a little here at the start of the year, but usually, a week to 10 days after the order is placed, from my experience. When you're waiting, it seems so long - right? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/10/23 at 17:18:16 Tony said: "When you're waiting, it seems so long - right?" I'm okay with the wait. It seems like I have done a lot of waiting in the last 2 years for things. In the meantime, I switched back to my original tube set that came with my amp. Funny, but I forgot how good the original set sounded. I want these to be the tubes that I compare the Cryotone's to. I'm still on trial with a set of Klipsch Heresy's, and I have heard what works and what doesn't. A month in and I haven't definitively said yes to these. Long story short: I have plenty to keep me occupied until the tubes land. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/12/23 at 07:35:05 I traded email with Don today, and he said he had some of my tubes in process. He said they should ship Saturday or Monday. So it seems about a week to process. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BlackBess on 01/12/23 at 17:08:46 I received some cyrotone 6SN7’s quickly but have been waiting for a couple of their 300b tubes for quite some time. I wanted to give them a roll before my Had with a WE300B quad shows up. ![]() upload image I’m pretty sure the PSE300 comes with one of these little cuties. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 01/12/23 at 19:30:17 I have had Cryotone in both my CSP3-A and my UFO25 for quite some time. For those of you that may want to experiment try the 12AU7-WCL in the input position of either or both the CSP and/or the UFO25. Now my input tube of choice, fantastic results. Of course you will need an adapter and this is really the point of this post. I ended rolling adapters. I found that the adapter can have a considerable effect. Here's the adapters that I've tried: 12AXX to E88CC NOS Jemosa 12AXX to E88CC with the Korean bakelite/silver socket and gold pins Jemosa 12AXX to E88CC Ceramic/gold socket and gold pins I ended up with the Jemosa 12AXX to E88CC Korean Bakelite in the UFO25 and the Jemosa 12AXX to E88CC ceramic/gold in the CSP3... very nice combo! Next: I have a 6SN7-WC on the way, hope to get it next week. I have a Jemosa 6SN7 to E88CC ceramic/gold adapter that I will try with it in the CSP3-A After I try the 6SN7-WC I hope to finalize the Cryotone combos. Then the UFO25 goes in for processing. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Puggy on 01/13/23 at 18:21:14 After not being able to find a rectifier that really “did it” for me in my ZP3, I decided to try the Cryotone 5AR4 a few weeks ago. It’s still breaking in, but this is a killer rectifier and probably one of the best, if not the best I’ve had. My ZP3 sounds absolutely huge now but still with great control. Dynamics, clarity, bass, soundstage are all there. Also my ZP3 is even quieter than before. The recommended tube combo for the ZP3 on the site uses a 5U4G, but I’ve never found a 5U4 I’ve liked in it, personally. Every 5U4 has sounded too slow, so I stuck to 5Y3 or type 80 in the past, although those didn’t have quite the scale I was looking for. I spoke to Don about this and he said the 5AR4 was probably the better choice for my tastes. He was right! Hearing a level of scale and presence I’ve never heard from the ZP3. It’s probably worth noting I like a tight analog sound (hence the Thorens 124), so this combo worked well for me; the 5U4 might work better for you. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 01/17/23 at 01:15:22 Quote:
Puggy, I had two Amprex/Miniwatt 1957 GZ34 Metal base. One in my UFO25 and one in my CSP3-A. Also ended with all Cryotone tubes. I wasn't sure if I should sell the GZ34 Metal Base. So, after a while, I put one back in and shortly after that I sold both, each one for over 4X what one CryoTone 5AR4-WC costs and haven't looked back. Today I received the Cryotone 6SN7-WC. Rolled it into the CSP3-A input replacing the 12AU7-WCL. For the first couple of hours I really wanted to put the 12AU7-WCL back. Now after 4 hours I have the memory of the 12AU7-WCL but can't get myself to roll it back in! Right now I have a Cryotone 12AU7-WCL in the input of the UFO25 and the 6SN7-WC in the input of the CSP3-A and can't get over what I'm hearing. I'm going to give this some time and post what the final outcome will be, FWIW. As you said, "KILLER"! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/19/23 at 19:11:50 Still waiting for my order. It's been near 2 weeks. I heard from Don last week, and he said they should have shipped last Saturday or Monday. To be fair, Monday was a holiday, but it's Thursday and I've heard nothing. Not complaining, just sharing my order experience. I would rather wait for proper QC than receive something that wasn't right from the start. I got the feeling from Don in our last email that they were indeed busy. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Puggy on 01/23/23 at 03:28:32 Joman, I saw some of your earlier posts about how the Cryotone 5AR4s compared with the GZ34 metal base, which certainly played a factor in my purchase. To me, that metal base GZ34 represents the pinnacle of rectifiers (and the price shows that). The fact that this Cryotone can even be compared to the metal base GZ34 is really a testament in itself. Especially for a tube that’s $120, which isn’t even expensive compared to a quality NOS rectifier. After many more hours of break in, my ZP3 is sounding fantastic with this Cryotone 5AR4. Huge and controlled with great clarity and detail. Best bass I’ve had from my ZP3. It feels like it’s pulling the absolute best performance out of my NOS input tubes. I’m interested in trying the Cryotone input tubes, but I’m extremely happy with this NOS set I’ve been running in the ZP3 (after lots and lots of tube rolling). Joman, that’s great to hear you’re liking the 6SN7s. I recently bought a linestage that uses 3 6SN7s and have been waiting to put some Cyrotones in there. Seems like the early reviews were slightly mixed on that tube. Please keep us updated on how it’s sounding! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BlackBess on 01/23/23 at 04:11:38 Whale doggies, what a day. We arrived home from a nice show by the PSO at Heinz Hall, when my wife declares “ your tubes are here”. I placed my order for 300B tubes back on cyber Monday. It’s like pulling hen’s teeth, but after a few very nice return calls by Don, I gots tubes plugged in & makin’ nice. I guess the word is not many 300B tubes make it through the process successfully. Rolled in some 9-pins that I added to my order in my Shanling STP10. Until earlier this week it had been rocking some JAN 5670’s but in anticipation of trying Don’s tubes, I rolled in some 6N3P-EV tubes from the 80’s. Previously while shooting the breeze with Don on the phone (because he obviously wasn’t working on my tubes) he talked about his Herman amp that used either of those in the front end. The new cryo-6N3P tubes were powered up in the STP10 amp while the Willy was rebiased for the new Wathen’s. I’ll have to say that I’ve been happy with the enjoyment provided by these amps through my Forte IV’s & my newly restored Bose 601 speakers. But just minutes after almost falling into a stupor listening to random songs from a playlist on the STP, my wife announces “let’s listen to a Shenandoah Lullaby” by Garcia & Grisman with the 300B. Quite a difference from the Elgar we had just heard downtown. I don’t think I’ve noticed the fret buzz on Jerry’s guitar here before. Is that a good thing? If you don’t think too good, don’t think too much. Gotta lotta tube burn in’ to do. On a side note, because the Cryotone tube is taller, the Willy’s tube cage no longer fits. ![]() And remember, as always; ![]() |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/24/23 at 19:36:46 After 2 weeks of processing, and 3 days to ship, my tubes have arrived. I chose Don's pick, and I like what I hear already. I had the original tube set re-installed for the last few weeks to remind myself of the way the amp sounded when new. I chose: 5AR4-WC EL84-WC ECC88-WC My first impressions are good. The bass is solid, tight, and tuneful. Horns through my Heresy IV's seemed to have a bit of edge, and that sounds like it is gone. The 5AR4-WC is not the tall "Coke bottle" style. It's not much taller than the power supply, now. I do not seem to have lost any gain. I usually listen with the knob at the 1/4 position, and it's right there. I'll report more when I have more time on them. Cheers. Also.... The low hum I had is almost all gone. Probably caused by the old rectifier. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BlackBess on 01/26/23 at 04:44:49 After a few days I really don’t know if I can put into words my impressions of Don’s latest shipment. But let me tell you what happened a little earlier. We’re trying the new 300B’s, listening to Symphony for the Devil by A.S.L.T.W., then Hiatus by Fluxion. As a version of a Million Miles Away by Rory Gallagher played, I’m admiring the detail of the soundstage. That’s a good one. But it sounds wider than the speakers. Anyway, Seatbelts is playing their tune Rush & I’m ready for a 50’s detective show. Right in the middle of the song I switch to the 20 year old amp with 4 Wathen Cryotone 5670-WC tubes hooked to 40 year old “Bozo” 601’s sitting next to the Forte IV’s. Now SuEcide by Alec Empire from the No Photos album is playing & after awhile there’s a percussive beat on 4&1, every other measure for a few lines. It sounds like it’s coming from behind my left shoulder. I point this out to my wife, she smiles(thank heavens”for little girls”) & replied wryly “maybe it’s one of the cats”. Yeah, she thinks she’s funny too. That’s about as wide of a soundstage as I’ve heard here at home 2 channel. So, there’s that, thanks, Ralph ![]() |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by mperdue63 on 01/27/23 at 00:43:10 Ordered Cryotone tube set for the Sarah on Tuesday, I didn’t expect it would take 3 weeks to ship, is that standard for Wathen? |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/27/23 at 01:42:41 The set for my UFO2 showed up on Tuesday via USPS. It took about 10 business days. I am only a handful of hours into using them, and I am already very impressed. Patience Grasshopper.... It will be worth the wait. :) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 01/28/23 at 03:49:37 I've had the CryoTone 6SN7 in my CSP3-A for quite a few hours and after listening tonight I am very impressed. I also think that I know why this tube has had mixed reviews. First to put some context into this... I discovered that the adapter, if needed as it is for the CSP3-A and UFO25, can make a large difference. Actually it can be a deal breaker. I tried it first with a Jemosa gold socket/gold pin adapter. It was good but not quite there no matter how I tried. I remembered that I had another adapter. Looks like a silver socket/gold pin. That filled in what was not "quite there". The other factor is my Lumin U2 Mini>Chord M Scaler>Plixer LPS>Chord Qutest, and for good measure add the PSM156. This combo just mines up detail as if it were gold. Tonight I felt like listening to the various renditions of Unchained Melody. At first I was afraid that this might be a comparison of good recordings to poor recordings. It wasn't. What it became was an experience with great compositions, vocals in a well recorded venue be it live or studio. So that once the great was experienced the lesser became uninteresting not unlistenable. Some examples: Encore (Live) - Caroline Campbell, Instrumental - Soundstage depth and imaging, deep and wide, excellent. Layering and timbre of instruments, beyond reproach. Lykke Li (piano accompaniment) - First few notes and lyrics... I involuntarily muttered HOLY S... (I'm not normally prone to colourful expletives) Crywolf with Roniit - The harmony of the voices was simply unreal and evident by the separation, and the texture of the voices coupled with the emotion, it put a lump in my throat and a tear in my eye... okay eyes (men don't blubber, I reminded myself). And now there are many more versions of Unchained Melody that are on my playlist. My take on the CryoTone 6SN7-WC is that it's truthful. Give it what it needs to do what it does best and you'll be rewarded. So, now, my insufferable curiosity has me wondering what would happen if I put another in the UFO25??? In place of the CryoTone 12AU7-WCL??? I can't... This is killing me! |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/28/23 at 05:14:25 JOMAN, It's nice to hear you are really giving your Cryotone tubes a serious go. I have about 17 hours on the set for my UFO, and I am fully impressed. I have noticed a deeper soundstage, clarity, and details unheard before. Also, the bass is rock-solid, and very cleanly reproduced. The first day, I had no "wow" moments, but yesterday I discovered the depth of the soundstage while listening to Henry Mancini's "Music from Peter Gunn." Since then, I have had many of those moments with different records. I just shut the amp off after 9 hours today because my ears needed a break. I'm off today, and those tubes got me up early this morning to listen. I love the possibilities they bring. Enjoy. -Danny |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 01/28/23 at 06:40:26 I just shut the amp off after 9 hours today because my ears needed a break. There you go, who said music lovers can't self-regulate! :) |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 01/28/23 at 06:51:14 There you go, who said music lovers can't self-regulate! Hahaha. The funny thing is I wouldn't have gotten that far today without a couple of Advil. Whenever I change tubes, my left ear gets irritated. I don't listen much past 70 dB, but something about a tube change does it every time. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 01/28/23 at 07:39:20 I'm glad you have had such a positive reaction to that tube. I've tried it with three different converter bases, and in three different components in two rooms. It's "okay" in my largest room in the CSP3 with the mods as driver, not input, tubes, but there are several NOS that are much better. Because of my experience with this tube, and a slightly more favorable but hardly "wow" experience with the Wathen output tubes, these seem like "the Emperor's new clothes" to me and I am not interested in trying a "full loom" or other Wathen tubes. We're all different. I think these that I bought may appeal to those who are very much into extracting every bit of detail whereas my system has different targets. Regardless, I'm very happy they work out for others; I'll continue with using NOS tubes, of which I have dozens. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 01/28/23 at 11:02:14 Hey Lon I don't think that I would entirely agree with this comment... Quote:
Reason is that the experience, whether to ones taste or not, is real, and I do get that is how you may feel and respect that. I wear mostly Coppley Suits, they seem to flatter my non athletic "mature build". Love to fit into a Canali, but... OH, to be 20 again. The point is they're both real. However I would agree with this comment... Quote:
Once I was able to define my objective, which as you once correctly said "you are the mic" or something to that effect, I've been going down that path. I've found that to achieve that, detail is the key and not always easy to get right. It's not detail for the sake of detail, it's detail to achieve a passthrough of the event. It's the detail that makes the components disappear and all that's left is a feeling that I'm in the moment, in the venue, in the studio. The CryoTone tube sets have been key in achieving the objective and it's still a "work in progress". I certainly do respect the results that certain NOS tubes bring. I'm going to be selling some nice tubes that I no longer need for others to enjoy. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 01/28/23 at 12:23:10 Well, I like the "You are the Mic" path to audio enjoyment as well, but these two tube types from Wathen didn't cooperate with reaching that goal for me. I jest about the "Emperor's new clothes," but from outside the fan club that is what it resembles a bit, as in my experience the "reality" was not a big improvement and not a favored result. There are many different ways to get to the goal and many different persons on the job. I'm pursuing a different way, and respect the campaign and path of others, while knowing what does not appear to be the trail for me. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by JOMAN on 01/28/23 at 13:42:29 Quote:
I can certainly understand and respect that as we all have different tastes and experiences. Yet, although some paths will be different, there is still something of value as we express what we hear and try to put into words that which is intangible. I have benefited from reading what you have posted and are posting. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by effluviography on 01/31/23 at 20:44:02 Hi all - With my CSP3 I was trying to rectify a situation wherein I used an Amperex 7308 when listening through the Omega CAMs, but preferred a red-tipped 6N1p from Decware when listening through ZMF Atticus headphones. I was also switching between two Emotive CMX-6 power supplies - one with a copper power cable for headphone use and one with a silver clad copper one for speaker use. After email consultation with Don, I tried a Wathen ECC88 in the input position of the CSP3. Long story short, I keep the plug in the silver-clad copper power supply and don't switch tubes. The tube has given blacker backgrounds, more sound-stage and a nice micro-detail. Two issues - the mids sound is a little recessed or more neutral now (Amperex made them sound boosted) and the pacing is a little slower. I'd say the Wathen tubes got me over the need to switch and are 90% there. Overall, I'm enjoying them. I may try the 12AU7 with an adapter next to see what that does. The Wathen tubes are not perfect, but they are surprisingly good. For now, I'm enjoying that one tube. I don't feel a need to switch them all out - as I worry about it going maybe a bit too clinical for my tastes, but I know I will certainly keep trying them as I go and see what happens. It's nice having another option out there that does something more than hype. Cheers - Scott |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 02/12/23 at 13:49:24 Just an FYI as I'm not in the Cryotone camp really, but interestingly I notice that Guitar Center and Musician's Friend are selling some Cryotone preamp tubes and their KT-77 at less than Wathen's website, and I think even after the 10 percent Decware discount they may be a bit cheaper. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BlackBess on 02/12/23 at 23:38:29 Though I have very limited experience with 300B tubes, I think the Wathen version is a major step up from what I’ve heard before. My amp running 2 Wathen 300B tubes, a couple of Don’s 6SN7’s, a red base 5691 & a pair of flying “C” 5U4G’s is singing sweetly to say the least. But I was surprised to hear Lon mention Guitar Center as just the other day I did some digging in old guitar “junk”. There in a clear tube was a pair of 6L6-GC tubes from when Grove Tubes was a new thing. Early 80’s is what I’m guessing with a receipt showing me getting change back from $35. Well I have been REALLY (am I shouting?) enjoying the Wathen 5670-WC tubes in a 6L6 amp. But it was time to roll in some 6H3n-EB (6N3P) tubes that Don had suggested I try. In the past I had much preferred JAN 5670’s over the 6H3n-EB labeled tubes(in a cute blue & yellow box with a rocket). But after a few sessions these Wathen 6N3P tubes started to deliver the mail, so to speak. Now let’s add the 40+ year old Grove Tubes. To my surprise, the old girl is sounding terrific. Of course there’s no accounting for one’s personal tastes. ![]() subscript on keyboard |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by BlackBess on 02/15/23 at 17:12:59 After a week of Wathen 6P3S-WC listening the 5670-WC’s are back in as I prefer their sound in this SEP. The Groove Tubes were wishful thinking & are destined for “tweed” duty. 6P3S-E valves have been rolled back in & life is good. I’ve a new amp due soon, but once the dust settles & the coast is clear, there’s a 6L6, 6V6, EL34 itch that Wathen might help satisfy. ![]() |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by jec3504 on 02/16/23 at 01:02:12 ![]() Quote:
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Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 02/17/23 at 22:11:52 Well, I didn't expect that to happen. After 11 months of use, one of my four CryoTone EL34 power tubes in the Torii MKIV failed. No sound. I spoke with Don at Wathen Audiophile, who had previously helped select CryoTone tubes. He said it was unusual for one of the Cryo-treated tubes to fail after less than a year - they didn't expect that to happen. He asked me to return the tubes for investigation, which I did. Once received, he verified what I had described; all the tubes would light up, but there was no sound. One or more must have gone out. He then added, to my surprise, that he would replace the entire set with four matched power tubes at no charge and apologized for the inconvenience. Over the past year, I have had some enjoyable discussions with Don about my amp and tubes, so I got to know him a little. It did not surprise me that he wanted me to return the tubes for further investigation. Since I thought my situation was a tube anomaly, I was willing to contribute to the cause. However, for him to replace the tubes, I didn't expect that to happen. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by HockessinKid on 02/17/23 at 23:26:54 Great service from Wathen and Don. Just ordered 5AR4 rectifier for my upcoming phono preamp upgraded power supply. Everything should be here in a couple weeks. HK |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by effluviography on 02/18/23 at 23:39:23 That's great to hear about the customer service and replacement. After listening to the Wathen E88cc for a month in the input location for the CSP3, I've gone back to an Amperex 7308. I really like the space, soundstage, detail and black background of the Cryotone, but I was missing that midrange liquidity and fullness from the Amperex as well as slightly better pacing. I'll keep using the Wathen with my headphones, but for now I'm preferring the sound of the Amperex with the Omega speakers. I'm glad Wathen is out there and I'll probably try a 12au7 in the CSP3 input with an adapter later this year. It's nice to have options :). Cheers - Scott |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 02/19/23 at 21:17:26 I have been loving my sound with EL84's and a 5AR4 rectifier. ![]() ![]() online raffle generator |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Shipment Post by mperdue63 on 03/22/23 at 22:21:12 Anybody else waiting on Cryotone tubes? I ordered and paid for a complete set of Cryotone tubes for my new Sarah amp over 8 weeks ago. I checked on the status again today as was told to check back next week. Lady was real sweet and she told me that they were very very busy! So last week after nothing shipped from Wathen again, I ordered a pair of Western Electric 300B's and they arrived in two days. Now I'm digging through my tube cabinet trying to find enough tubes for the Sarah (she arrived Monday). But I doubt I'll find 3 OC2's in house. So now I'm really regretting not buying the Sarah with Decware tubes. I thought it was a good opportunity to try Cryotone and not spend the cash for spare tubes upfront. I checked the Decware site and they only show 2 OC2 tubes in stock and I need three. So I have yet to hear the new amp. I've stored it in a dark closet out of my sight in hopes of remaining sane while I wait a little longer for OC2 tubes to be delivered from The Grand Canyon State. Don with Cryotone told me that they are experiencing some tube supply challenges and they hope to get back on schedule soon. If you are about to order Cryotone tubes, call first for updated information and maybe avoid any surprises. Thank for assisting with my venting! Malcolm |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 03/22/23 at 22:36:24 Malcolm, let me check--I should have three OC2 that I can send you on hand. I'll let you know later this evening after I get through the dinner hours (I'm cheif cook and bottlewasher and it's about to start). |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by HockessinKid on 03/22/23 at 22:59:37 Malcolm, Sorry to hear about your delay. It appears that the Decware popularity is now spilling over to Wathen Cryotone tubes. Both are small family run companies experiencing order overflow. HK |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 03/23/23 at 01:02:18 Malcolm, I do have three 0C2, two Raytheon (long a staple sent with amps by Steve) and one 75C1. That will set you up and get you going. PM me if that would be helpful. I'll let you have them all at the prices I paid on eBay, which is pretty cheap. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by mperdue63 on 03/23/23 at 02:04:37 Lon, The offer is exceptionally gracious of you, thank you. I just received a shipping notice from the vendor in AZ. The OC2’s I ordered today are scheduled to arrive Saturday. That’s probably sooner than we could get anything arranged I’m thinking. I really appreciate you checking your inventory and the offer to send them my way. I should probably wait and see if the tubes scheduled for Saturday pan out. Please know I really appreciate your offer and especially all the wisdom you’ve shared on the forum over the years, I ‘ve learned a lot from your posts. Thanks Malcolm |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 03/23/23 at 02:16:20 Well that's great news, you're right, I could get these in the mail Priority tomorrow but those should reach you earlier or the same time. Glad they are on the way. You're welcome. I always try to have tubes on hand for my own backup or to help others. Picking them up over the years I have boxes of them. I'm eager to hear your impressions when the SEWE300B is up and running! I suspect it will sound fantastic. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 04/17/23 at 08:22:10 Is anyone currently waiting for Cryotone tubes? I have been waiting near a month for a replacement pair of EL84-WC's, and a 5AR4-WC. I haven't heard anyone mention the wait in a while. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Tony on 04/17/23 at 15:33:32 Hi Danny, I also had to wait to receive the delivery of my CryoTone tubes. I attribute that to a backup of orders. Perhaps Don at Wathan needs to create a waiting list like Decware has done so one knows where they stand. When the tubes arrived, I was more than pleased with their performance, so I had forgotten how uncomfortable the wait was. Hopefully, that will be your experience as well. One thing to consider, I called Don and asked for an estimation of how much longer the wait would be. That was helpful. He is very personable, as you might already know. In the process, he was instructive on changing my tube selection from one tube type to another, which worked well for me. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Mannytheseacow on 04/17/23 at 17:11:23 I'm going to echo Tony here, Danny, and recommend a call to Don if you've been waiting. I have found in the past, more than once, that my order was backed up behind a larger order that was waiting on a tube that he didn't have in stock. When my order was brought to his attention he robbed my tubes from someone ahead of me that was waiting for the out-of-stock tube to come in, and I got my tubes a few days later. Don's a very personable fella, and easy to work with. Just gotta keep those communication lines open. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Danny Boy on 04/18/23 at 06:19:52 Thanks, guys. I was interested if anyone had a long wait. I received my order months ago, and now I am waiting for EL84 replacements, and a replacement 5AR4 rectifier. One of my EL84 tubes gives a static sound when warming up, and the 5AR4 rings and hums. I love the sound, and I don't wish to change anything about it. I really want the issues I currently have to go away. Patience... |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by TieBreak on 02/04/24 at 00:04:48 Another happy customer of Wathen Audiophile and Cryotone tubes. I have the Cryotone bundle that I use on my Torii MK5 and do prefer the sound of these tubes. Don was very kind and helped me pick the right tubes for my preferences. Great service and tubes. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Kamran on 02/25/24 at 03:54:40 Cryotone 12AU7—WCL Long Plate Holy Shit. I’ve rolled the following 12AU7 (or equivalents) in my Sarah: Sylvania Mullard RCA Clear Top Siemens (probably my second fav now) This Cryotone input tube grabbed me instantly. Damn. Dead silent, rich and resolute with a wide open soundstage, which I tested with my door open (see my Reflecting on Sarah thread for more context) and even sitting two ft behind the sweet spot. I just can’t get over the resolution of this tube. This was worth the wait. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Kamran on 02/25/24 at 04:01:23 I should also add here that I also hugely prefer the Cryotone ECC88 driver tubes vs. the stock 6H6N drivers that Sarah shipped with. And while I’m using the Cryotone OC2 VR tubes over the 75C1 that shipped stock, I could see myself using both. They are both solid. The 5AR4 rectifier was not a good match with my WE’s so took that out and now testing the 5U4G. That’s it—I am going to be gunning for the Cryotone 300Bs next in the near future. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 02/25/24 at 10:08:33 With the exception of the 6SN7 and 5AR4 tubes which I immediately and continuously disliked strongly, Cryotone tubes have really elevated my SEWE300B and ZROCK2 and CSP3. I can't seem to replace my Aqua rectifiers and 75C1. . . but if Cryotone ever cryos 75C1 I'd go for them. . . but that seems unlikely due to supply. I have never tried the WE300B tubes, but I was surprised at how much more I preferred the 300B-WC in comparison to the Tataksuki that James leant me, I think you'd like the 300B-WC a lot after a few hundred hours Kam. |
Title: Re: CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video Post by Lon on 06/20/24 at 18:12:35 I have moved away from Cryotone tubes in my main system, finding that I preferred the Shuguang Black Treasure 300B-Z in my SEWE300B to the only remaining Cryotones in that system, the 300B-WC 9 (surprisingly, I did not expect to prefer these). I just this week received the Cryotone 5U4G which seems to be a Chinese tube. After about 40 hours I struggled to keep it in the SEWE300B as I have better rectifiers for that amp, but I am enjoying it in the CSP3 with all the mods in my audio/visual system. In that system every tube is a Cryotone tube except for one RCA 5U4GB rectifier in the power amp. The larger room allows these tubes to shine more than they do in the less forgiving smaller room my main system is in. |
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