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AUDIO FORUMS >> D.I.Y. >> Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
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Message started by HellionDarklord on 12/14/22 at 20:40:29

Title: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 12/14/22 at 20:40:29

Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn
Today at 02:28:31Modify Remove I have a design for a bass enclosure that uses three drivers in a loudspeaker transmission-line Dial Folded horn. I am having this built in a shop since I can't build it myself. I want to use these drivers first one 8inch https://www.skaraudio.com/products/ix-8-inch-car-subwooferand two 10" drivershttps://www.skaraudio.com/products/ix-10-inch-car-subwoofer I need something to power the bass. I need it to be relatively inexpensive and power all three drivers. What is the best amp/amps for the job? I hope these drivers will work. I finally got out of the hospital and need to build a deep sounding sub to act as a Bass Guitar Amp. Is there a driver with an fs lower than 40 Mhz? I need it to be rather inexpensive. I have only $75.63 left over after I pay rent. I'm getting access to my savings account in like 6 to 9 business days and I want to have everything together for the bass ap. My bass amp is an actual horn not like the Wicked One and Wicked One 32. It's larger than both of those too. I have an 8inch three driver enclosure as well. I Are there 3 channel subwoofer house amplifier that might work?

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by 4krow on 12/14/22 at 20:50:13

I am having trouble making out what you are posting about other than needing an amp for your sub.

I do want to call attention to the site that you have posted, since it doesn't work right and comes up with an 'error'. Maybe a red flag.

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 12/14/22 at 20:51:37

Okay, SOrry the link doesn't work.
s

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 12/14/22 at 20:53:21

Here is the 8 inch driver

https://www.skaraudio.com/products/ix-8-inch-car-subwoofer

and here is the 10 inch

https://www.skaraudio.com/products/ix-10-inch-car-subwoofer

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by EdwardT on 12/15/22 at 14:22:01

Ok, I’ll play. A sub isn’t a suitable device for a typical bass guitar, way too many notes and harmonics above 200 hertz for a sub to reproduce. A four string's lowest note is in the 40hz range at standard tuning and although you could certainly produce lower frequencies with a five string or alternate tuning, a subwoofer still craps out at the third string. The same applies to any sort of W box, too, where your driver isn’t forward facing to project anything above 200 hz.
As far as amps go, I’ve had good results with Aguilar, Eden, SWR, Ampeg and Trace Elliott and I have to give an honorable mention to Peavey for durability.

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 12/17/22 at 00:53:22

Yay! I found a helpful reply! Thanks. Well, I know where to look for amps, what about drivers?

Here is a pic of what I designed.... It's closer to an actual horn where the Wicked One is sort of loaded like an horn it is not really a horn. This is lots closer, I just need three drivers... the middle driver sits pretty between 'J' and 'M' and fires through a triangle into the bend in the horn.

I posted this when I didn't see your reply. https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?action=post;num=1671148485;title=PostReply
THe side view is there somewhere.

Thanks for your help. I just noticed driver recommendation over there.

upload pic

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by Mannytheseacow on 12/17/22 at 04:03:12

Eminence B810’s in a traditional cabinet design fed by an Ampeg SVT or Mesa Boogie 400+ will do whatever you are looking for with a bass guitar.

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by EdwardT on 12/17/22 at 13:52:04

This is a country bass rig built for Alabama's American Farewell tour. It is eight Eminence 10” speakers, four per ported bass reflex enclosure with two midrange horns for high end articulation. The amps are solid state Trace Elliot units that feature a tube preamp stage. The bass is a custom built Warrior four string, although that’s the back up and the player lives on a 1961 Fender Precision.

In regards to your desire for sound similar to a country song it’s worth noting that the vast majority of recordings take the bass direct to the console with either a passive Jensen transformer or an active circuit DI like an Avalon U5 pre (very nice.)

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by alper_yilmaz on 12/18/22 at 09:20:05

For bass amplification, I am not sure if a sub is a good idea, particularly in live applications. Please keep in mind that in most cases you hear the E string which has a frequency of 41.2 Hz from its second harmonic at 82.4 Hz. Actually, most bass speakers which claim to produce lows down around 40 Hz realize this at -3 or even -10 dB, so you do not hear the low E at its original frequency.

If you try to send a signal to the front of the house at that frequency, most probably the sound person will apply a high pass filter and kill your signal below 70-80 Hz, if not higher, anyway. Otherwise, bass is likely to sound very boomy and muddy and what you hear on stage fine will kill the whole mix in FOH.

As far as amplifcation goes, I currently have a Bergantino, a few by Markbass, an Acoustic Image, and all-tube Ampeg. In the past, I played through amps by Epifani, Aguilar and SWR (which is out of business now). All of these amps at different power points serve different gigs for me (I play around 100 gigs per year), so you might like to check some of these companies’ product lines.

As I mentioned in your other thread, talkbass.com is a great forum space with wealth of information and reviews. Apart from pro and amateur bassists, there are some industry professionals as well who provide very useful technical information.

Cheers,

Alper

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 12/19/22 at 00:36:58

So, I modified the sub into what I imagine might be better with a bass guitar. From the feedback you all have given me. It SHOULD work at higgher frequency now. Thanks

I have to admit that I still believe that a Subwoofer might work for a bass guitar cabinet. If I can get a 3-way going. Two Tens that have Fs at 40, and one midrange 8inch that has an Fs at 49. This, unless I'm totally missing the point of having a horn, should hit hard up into the higher frequencies maybe higher than 300Hz.

I distorted the picture and there are errors in the drawing so you can't just copy it and have anything turn out well. I hope it will have a nice clean/well rounded as well as full and deep midrange and punchy midrange.

On to finding a custom woodworker... Oly one way to find out if it will work. Build it... I just noticed a problem with it. I know that it won't work the way it is.
DOH! I can't get logged into talkbass I guess GOd wants me to go without it.

Would an amplifier for a bass guitar be able to split the power to three drivers in one cabinet? I have forgotten what I used to know since Last time I played with an extremely good sounding receiver and I broke it. can you please tell me how to get a three channel/driver/cabinet with about 400 wats per driver?

ebay photo size

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 12/19/22 at 00:52:04

If it doesn't work for a bass guitar then I'll just put it to use as subwoofer and make a home stereo system.

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by alper_yilmaz on 12/19/22 at 09:29:39

The amp would not distribute different frequencies to different drivers, but the crossover device in your speaker will, unless you bi-amp. By bi-amping, I mean you have dedicated amps for different frequencies. But since your signal source is only your bass guitar,

- you will have to split your signal into two (or more),
- apply hi-pass or low-pass filters (HPF and LPF) on these signals,
- process these signals with proper amplification, and
- connect the outputs of these amps to different cabinets or drivers.

This is not something done (at least, not often), to the best of my knowledge, as it creates too complex a signal chain and for live applications it is not practical. I am more than happy to share with you my recording and live setup. My recording setup is more complex than my live setup, but even with that complex setup the marginal benefit is relatively small. And I actually use top-of-line gear in both cases...

With respect to use of subwoofers for bass, that is something the FOH guys do for the generality of bass frequencies, not only specifically for the bass instrument. In music genres like jazz, we never prefer use of subs as they tend to garble the music, specifically its definition.

There was this Chicago-based bass player whose name I cannot remember at the moment, but he was a constant contributor to talkbass.com at one point. He was very much into using sub frequencies in his bass amplification, but as far as I remember it could be done only for his recordings. I do know how he set his tone in concerts.

Cheers,

Alper

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by EdwardT on 12/19/22 at 14:44:29

I should have asked about your planned application before I told you what works, that's important in the scheme of things. Bass guitar has so many harmonics that a sub can't reach I just responded with a knee jerk reaction and that’s on me. One thing, you need to be able to see the center of at least one speaker to try an achieve some aural balance otherwise the box will mask your tone and the guitar will sound dull.

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 12/20/22 at 20:38:36

Thanks for your info

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 12/22/22 at 23:58:34

Can I drive all three drivers form one amp? I admit that I don't know for sure what was being said. What is FOH for example and I have no idea what bi amping does.

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by alper_yilmaz on 12/23/22 at 23:29:18

Yes, you can. Please see my response in the other thread.

Sorry if I was not clear in my previous posts. FOH is “front-of-the-house.” When you play large venues (sometimes even small coffeeshop gigs), there is a sound system (and hopefully a sound person that is in charge). That system and person is in charge of the sound going to the audience. With too much bass coming from your rig, as a bassist, or a dedicated sub for just your instrument, it would be next to impossible for the sound person to take care of the sound in front of the band, as the stage sound and the FOH sound might clash and might not sound good together.

The reason I mentioned bi-amping was I thought you were thinking of driving separate drivers with separate amps; sorry if I have misunderstood you.

Anyway, I hope this is clearer.

Alper

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 12/25/22 at 00:42:34

I think I'm going to try something new. large holes instead of the sealed off side where the back wave fires into the horn and the front of the driver fired out into the air. Will that make it a fuller fullrange with tons of bass?

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by EdwardT on 12/25/22 at 22:39:01

Maybe an adaptation of this 40” tall rear loaded horn:

This is a copy of JBL's 4530 cabinet for a single 15, it also came in a dual 15 horn as well. Both produced very powerful bass.

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 05/23/23 at 22:17:47

I started over again... God showed me a better way. I started with the folded horn, went with a graham Holliman resonating cavity, and bought drivers for Car Audio thinking that I might be able to market and sell boxes. ... here is a preview of the 'Infrabass Thunder' that I designed... I;m not showing all of the enclosure until I can get a patent.d circles made in the 3D model help get the horn right.

GOtta go Shopping... have a nice day!!!

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 05/29/23 at 20:56:18

I started over with the taper of the horn. I rebuilT it in the 3D program called blender (blender.com)

Is it possible to make the rounded corners like in this picture?

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 05/29/23 at 22:56:44

I want curves like this. Is there anyone available who can do this? (I made it round on the inside of the curve) someone said that the air will flow better with rounded curves. This DOES taper down to the throat, but it is so long with the low taper that you can't tell just by looking at it.

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 05/29/23 at 22:58:10

This is a problem corner. I will have to use fiberglass or something to fill in the gap above the circle >:(

image sharing

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by 4krow on 05/30/23 at 01:16:55

Curved while still sharp edges on the inside of the corner doesn't make good sense to me. Part way is not worth the effort. Hold on. Now I see the next drawing, and yes, that makes more sense to me.

Having said that, this sort of construction takes more than a little bit of extra effort.

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by HellionDarklord on 05/30/23 at 01:39:36

I see people using a c'n'c machine to cut out wood baffles... Where would someone go to use one of these? I now have three prototypes that I need built.

Title: Re: Where to start, Bass guitar dual folded horn?
Post by 4krow on 05/30/23 at 18:44:44

There is a reality to be seen here. Like you, I would really like to have funds for using a CNC machine to do the difficult work such as what you show in your latest drawings. The truth here is that this sort of machining is expensive for anyone. It is out of my reach, and if I were to afford it, the design would have to be a tried and true design, and not an experiment.
You went from wanting this to be done by yourself, to hoping that someone might be able to do it for you, to state of the art CNC work. Time to reassess the project based on available funds.