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AUDIO FORUMS >> Room Treatment   >> My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
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Message started by red pill sanctuary on 05/24/24 at 21:54:39

Title: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/24/24 at 21:54:39
I would like to share my story of progression throughout the years since I started my current audio room project, the trials and tribulation, the disappointment, the glory...all factors which had to be endured before a conclusion can finally find a means to an end of exploration....to know that one has achieved success without the need to look any further to be satisfied.

I have been into audio since I began liking music around 1969...albums such as CCR, Beatles, Led Zeppelin...etc  This really did start it all for me.

Of course, I never seriously acquired high end audio equipment until well into the 90's. I always had mid grade equipment such as Carver amps, holographic pre-amp, Acoustic Research Speakers, Cerwin Vega speakers, Klipsch.....Technics turntable.....etc.  Most of my source material was vinyl.  I did however have the Carver CD player and a good collection of half speed mastered offerings on the Mobile Fidelity label.  Also my collection consisted of many Telarc CD's of the time.

So I was reasonably satisfied with this average grade system that I felt was pretty good considering what the standard baseline offerings in audio were for that period...thinking back into the 70's.   Yes, There was always Marantz, Kenwood, Pioneer....etc, But I had what I wanted and that was that.

So moving forward, one night I came across this website ( I believe it was in the fall of 1996), Decware....hmmm, never heard of it.  But somehow, I became entertained and found intrigue as to what I was reading from the author of the articles available to read.  This is when finally, I realized that there actually was someone out there in the audio world who really did have a deep understanding of this mysterious and widely misunderstood audio world.

Of course this was Steve himself. That my friends is where my real audio journey took root and has blossomed every since.  It would not be long before I became a customer and ordered the best premium set of mono amps offered at the time. You may remember the Sv83 tubes in the single ended class A format without feedback....pretty standard in a class act.

Then eventually,came the addition of the ZTPRE. Things are off to a really good start.   I maintained my original set of Carver "Amazing Loudspeakers" which I purchased new in around 1987.  These sounded truly amazing with holographic imaging that would take things to a much higher level than what any standard box speaker would be capable of.

Those were huge open baffle units set to 5 degree rake with a full line array of ribbon elements, alongside a quad array of flat metal subwoofers.  These things provided a very deep extension into the lower registers, but they were not efficient.  It was very difficult to extract the engaging feeling one gets from large powerful amplifiers that have enough headroom to not clip and fail.  

So I knew these speakers would have to be retired with no possible place in a system with low power class A SET amps.  I loved them, but they had to go.  It was time for a new phase in my audio journey.

So to find an agreeable set of speakers which would compliment these amps without too much struggle, I ordered what was to be (I believe), the very first set of speakers which Decware placed on the site for sale..if I am wrong about that, I apologize.  I just don't recall any other offerings at that time.

Of course, anyone who has been around this site since that time knows exactly what I am referring to...The original Radial Speakers in the round tubes.

Since then, many generations of speakers came into play. I had at least 6 or 7 different models to choose from at any time I pleased.  These were a far cry from that original set of Radial Speakers.

I began experimenting with acoustic control devices and began taking the factor of acoustics very seriously. My problem was that I was always renting, thus limiting my freedom to build what I really needed to have. I simply had to make do with what I had...no other option.

Since then, I progressed to building my own speakers to include the Decware folded horn subwoofer, the HDT's, and the NFX speakers.

I have heard many of these speakers along with many of the amp lineup in Decware's listening room (Decfest Events), so I had a very good representation of what great audio should sound like.

Now I was deeply hooked and the money hungry beast took possession of my wallet for the next several years. Audio perfection became an obsession with me and I became a slave to its course of progression. The next thing I know, I have a vinyl collection reaching upwards of what would be worth around 60,000 today.  So many rare titles still sealed from DCC, Mobile Fidelity, reissues mastered at the Acoustic Sounds Lab...etc.  Many of these titles are rare collector titles that have skyrocketed in value.....hundreds of dollars each...and more!

So of course I had to get a worthy vinyl rig to insure that I could get the most extracted out of those vinyl grooves.  Then comes the Teres turntable.  So I have this $1800 Japanese MC cartridge which needs a step up transformer and a decent phono stage to compliment the quality of the turntable.  Back to Decware again.  My order was placed.   I had a new step up transformer for my MC cartridge, and a Zen Triode Phono Stage on the way.   In those days, ordering new equipment did not have a long waiting list....maybe 90 days at most.

Then the desire for more power came into play.  If I do not have the low end frequency response and the power to make it clean and solid without forcing the amps into severe clipping and distortion, then this system is not right for me.  Although I listen to a great deal of Classical music, I also change course to Classic Rock and heavy metal from groups such as Metallica.  If you understand the demand for which any Metallica album places upon an audio system without falling on it's face, then you know just how powerful the low frequency content is, and with percussion that compliments that course.  I need a system that will make my senses one with the music..."singularity" if you will. If I do not feel connected to it in every way, especially the physical sense of it, then it simply does not meet my standard of acceptance.  I need to sit in the dark, my eyes closed so that only my ear-brain sensory perception can concentrate fully on the music before me.  I want to be transformed into a feeling of "being there live".  I want to believe that the drums and bass are actually playing in a live performance. I want to hear that crisp extended shimmer of the cymbals which seem to linger on endlessly. To hear separation of every tiny detail that most people have probably never heard in midgrade systems.

I want to perceive a sound-stage so wide and so deep that I can imagine myself in a live concert arena watching the band playing on stage.

All of those factors are very tough achievements in which to attain. There is such a delicate balance of all things considered for which become the real key to unlocking that secret.

You will never perceive the same experience in a room with walls as you would a wide open space without detrimental factors coming into play.

Until you are ready to accept the importance of acoustics as an interaction which gets in the way between the music, and your true perception of that music, then you simply have not made your journey complete.   Anyone who has achieved this level knows exactly what the truth is.

I come from many years of experience. I have the knowledge and confidence to know the difference. So I want to share some of my experiences as they pertain leading up to my current state of audio perception within my listening space. It does not matter whether you agree with me or not. I am not here to sell you anything, so there is no benefit in it for me other than I hope someone else will eventually learn from seasoned Veterens such as myself, and better yet, achieve something that is extraordinarily special to them.

BTW: I am also a military Veteran with over eight years active duty service and several tours of duty overseas...thank you very much! My experience runs deep from f4 phantoms, to f-15 strike eagles, to B1B bombers, A10 attack aircraft...etc.  My military career led me into the civilian sector working on non disclosed projects for Lockheed-Martin, and on to maintaining Boeing aircraft such as 767 freighters that Amazon leases and the like.  My career extends back to around 35 years of aircraft experience.   But enough about my history.  Just so you get an idea where I am coming from.

So as time went on....I upgraded to a ToriiMK2 amplifier using KT88's so that I could satisfy my need for more power.  There is no explanation necessary to describe that amp or it's capabilities.

Since then, I upgraded to the ToriiMK3 amp with EL34 tubes.I ordered that amp back in May of 2012.  I am still using that amp today.  I am completely satisfied.  If you follow this thread, I will explain why that amp is the last amp I will ever need.....and I am extremely confident about that fact.

So to conclude, this is the beginning of a continued thread which I have a great deal of information to convey concerning every step of the way in my current project  I do hope that if not merely entertaining, that it in some way will help guide others who might want to learn and improve their own situation.

Oh, and one more note: I just placed an order for a Zrock3 with every available option.  It is going to be a long wait before I get it.  So maybe I can kill some time here before it arrives. There will be much to say about that addition once it has been integrated.

Will post again soon.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/24/24 at 23:58:40
This is a strange forum law...but hey, I will get through it.  I tried to post an image.  Denied because there is a requirement for a 12 post minimum before that is allowed! So I will just ramble a bit over several posts until I can unlock that requirement...please bear with me.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 00:01:32
So let me tell you a bit more about my ongoing project. I am going to make several posts so I can unlock the hold on me for posting images.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 00:06:05
So I also wanted to mention that I will be discussing details about my own custom speaker design which you see at the bottom of my posts. They do play a critical role within this room evolution. I will explain why that is so later on.

These are my designs which I built myself.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 00:13:17
I originally designed this audio room to utilize a completely decoupled front wall (the wall is not what it appears to be).

This wall incorporated a driver array built within the isolated wall parameter in a floating configuration.  This was my attempt to counter the effects of boundary interference.  This was an extremely complex attempt to try, but I have no fear, and the show must go on!  

How did this work out.  Stay tuned and you just may find out.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 00:15:49
okay, so the game continues....eventually I will be able to upload an image.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 00:38:33
This "inwall" system is not by any regard a typical "drywall faced 16 inch on center" configuration.  It will take time to explain how it works, and why theoretically it should work with known advantages in its favor.

 Yes, as with any type of design, there is expected to be certain drawbacks that may not be deemed acceptable to some.  Keep in mind, this is an ongoing experiment. The whole point is to build it, and then ultimately test it.  If it does not lead up to ones expectations, then start all over with a clean slate.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 00:44:34
What you may find interesting about my room is that the walls are not really walls, at least not "ordinary" walls.  You will better understand what this means as I am able to post images later in this thread.  It has been said that a picture is worth a thousand words.  That is easily conveyed in my situation.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 00:51:11
What you will notice is that there are no implementations of quadratic sequence diffusers within this room.  There is good reason for that.  It is extremely difficult to extract the full potential of a quadratic diffuser in a smaller room due to the necessary travel time it takes to complete the cycle before it gets to your ears.

 The alternative for which gives the most logical solution is that of binary and ternary sequences. These work in as little range as three feet from the listener, making them much more effective in a room like this.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 00:54:12
The other thing that will evade your direct perception about this room concerns bass absorption.  Remember what I said about the walls not being what they appear to be....you guessed it, there is something hidden there.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 01:10:10
Okay, finally I can post an image....imagine that!

What you see is the back of the room. The huge full scale ternary diffuser sits at the bottom to cover the lower frequencies, while the huge binary sequence diffuser sits at the top for the high frequency range. There is a substantial degree of bass absorption built in behind and within these units.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 01:20:20
Here is a view of the side wall forward of my listening position. You see the right front corner diaphragmatic absorber alongside of the removable window cover which seals airtight to the frame. A floor standing curved binary unit in front of that.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 01:57:40
A close up view of the binary quad sequence diffuser/absorber unit which is curved for improved diffusion. You can see the detail behind the cloth. This unit does act as a bass absorption device as well.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 02:07:08
Now you see the upper front view of the room showing work in progress as I prepare to mount the drivers within the floating receptacles for the in-wall system. You see one of the suspended full scale binary diffuser/absorber units above.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 02:18:05
A wider view showing the installation of the thick engineered flooring over sound absorbing quiet walk underlayment.  You might wonder why I chose a hard reflective surface for the floor...soon I will make that all clear as to why this is necessary.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 02:26:59
View during construction phase with one of the seal-able window covers removed to expose the window.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 02:33:47
View of window showing one side of the covers removed at the back of the room. These covers seal airtight against the frames.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 02:43:29
Test fitting the driver array within the in-wall floating baffles.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 02:55:32
         Test fitting the drivers after machining the baffles.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 03:07:34
                 Checking the driver for surface flush seating.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 03:17:38
              View showing mid-range driver and tweeter.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 03:50:45
Full view at front of room under construction showing the open in-wall diaphragmatic absorber modules which get metal face plates.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 04:11:26
Left side baffle array installed. Complete isolation enforced by the use of a floating cradle prevents any transference of vibration or resonance to, or from the surrounding wall.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 04:21:18
   View of upper backside showing crossover view for left side array.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 04:29:42
Simulated driver array frequency response and impedance graphs for the in-wall system.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 04:38:49
A close view of the frequency response as simulated by X-sim for the crossover network. Shown from 30 Hz to 20 kHz and very ideal.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 04:48:31
Simulated response of crossover network ranging from 40 Hz to 20 kHz.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 04:57:35
    View showing left side quad array of 10 inch woofers.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 05:09:53
 Optimized impedance stabilization with zobel networks.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 05:26:52
 This image depicts the actual 3d view of the binary grid sequence that I created for the massive panels.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/24 at 05:31:53
       It all started with this simple base grid binary sequence.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 05/25/24 at 10:48:48
Interesting journey. Looking forward to future posts on this. How big is the room?

Thanks for your military service.

John

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Gilf on 05/25/24 at 13:36:19
Welcome. Very cool and thank you for sharing.
How did you choose the distance between the left and right channel speakers? They look very close together.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 05/25/24 at 17:12:27
This is very interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing where this leads.

Looks like a lot of engineering and ingenuity went into this. Thanks for sharing!

I have a fairly small 12Lx14Wx10H room and have done a modest amount of treatment but obviously nothing close to this. In the future I hope to have a larger room and look forward to the ideas/concepts presented in your posts.

Good luck and thank you for your service.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/26/24 at 03:23:53
Hello to all that have joined in here...I will eventually do my best to explain everything in detail as I continue with this extensive room build.  I have a tremendous amount of material that I used to make YouTube videos with.  Too bad I can't post videos on here...you might find them interesting.

The huge library of videos I had on my YouTube channel are now private. I did not get enough support to make it worth all of the effort and time I went into it.  You tube would plaster stupid ads all over my videos which I were not making a dime on. I decided that I was not going to be their fool and pulled the plug.  They were making money on my work, NOT me!

So I shall share my work here for a large group of people who I know will appreciate it and can get something out of it.  I don't mind helping Steve out...he always wants more people to get involved with room acoustics.  I am here to help.   [smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/26/24 at 03:46:13
Also; To answer a couple of questions asked of me, I will go over the details of my room size, the room modal response of this room, how it fits in for a near ideal size with all of the mods I have made.

Also, the beginning phase of this room experiment calls for an in-wall speaker arrangement set to a very minimum spacing for very good reason.  This has to do with S.B.I.R., first order reflections, inter-aural cross-talk, for the most part.  This integrated wall is actually purpose designed to act as a huge speaker baffle.  You can't do that with an ordinary wall.  This is no ordinary wall by any means.  This room will deceive you as you look at it's face value.  Once you discover what lies behind those walls, you will begin to understand the scope of this project, and why I designed it this way.

BTW: Part two of this experiment deals with using my custom made speakers which will take place of the in-wall speakers.  You might find it interesting as to what I discovered by comparing both types of speaker systems within this room.  That gets covered later in the next phase.

Bear with me, I have much to cover.  If I do forget to answer these questions, please remind me again. I am not ignoring you.

I think it is more interesting to jump ahead in the beginning to show you the attractive finished images before I go back into the dirty mess of deconstruction and rebuilding.  I will show you all of the steps as to how these implementations came about.  I may jump around a bit to keep things interesting, but I will cover all of the details.

Note: I began this project in 2019.  I kept myself busy with this during the Corona period.  I can still remember New Years Day sitting in this empty shell of a room, staring at it as I pondered what I should do to extract the absolute most from this room acoustically.  As I sat and thought...it suddenly hit me as clear as a bell, I had a vision, I saw everything at once in my mind...I actually visualized what is to be seen in finished form today.  The blueprint was in my head...it was time to make it happen.

And the rest is history.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/26/24 at 03:50:48
And also, thank you for your respectful honor on my behalf. I served to make things like this possible for Americans to do freely. I am not sure where the future is going...it looks very dark.  But I won't get into that here. This is not the place for it.

This is a good place to go and just forget about all of that. :)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/26/24 at 04:11:26
Well, since it was brought up, I guess a good place to start this evening is to provide a few details about the room itself.   You know what, I forgot what the actual measurements were when I took them...so long ago. Hey, I am old now, memory tends to waver..lol  The room is not large, that was the whole point of this project.  I got tired of all these professional blowhards telling me that my room would suck and there was no way I could ever get anything decent out of it musically. You know, I love a good challenge, and I am not afraid to take one of these guys on head first.  If I fail, I will accept that and move on.  But you know, it is that feeling of gratification one gets when you can prove something right.  I had too many "pocket ruler" types that would jump to conclusion and flat out tell me that any attempt to do this would lead to disappointment and failure.

In the end, that is the farthest thing from the truth!  I only wish I could blindfold those individuals and sit them in this room while I fire up something special from a warmed up Torii amp.  I would have to video record their expressions so that I can give them a copy to go home with and redirect their thoughts...lol

I am not going to assume anything.  My intention is to try something out, and keep modifying it until I find what I am looking for.  I just don't put much into what the mainstream says...after all, they are just opinions without facts to back them up.

And hey, you can say the same about me...no problem. We all have our take on things. But at least I am honest about my perspective on things, and I try to do the right thing.

It would be so much easier if I could just invite you all to spend an evening listening to music in this room.  I think you just might be pleased.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/26/24 at 04:22:56
So in the beginning, as I tried to formulate some type of perspective as to what I can expect from this rooms dimensions. ( I need to go measure the room again to let you know what it is....sorry about that).  Anyway, based upon the actual dimensions, this is what resulted. It is not the entire calculations, that is way too long...but you get the idea.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/26/24 at 04:27:49
Now to get an idea of just how bad this room would be concerning modal response...the dreadful influence of nodes and anti nodes....you know, all of the fun stuff!   :o

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/26/24 at 04:32:57
It was not quite as bad as what I expected, but a far cry from being "golden ratio".

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/26/24 at 05:30:30
Now you have to think, I did have the feeling that someone would immediately be thinking....my God man, don't you know that putting speakers into a wall will be total disaster!

And yes, that statement would be totally correct if someone was contemplating such a thing in a standard wall by just cutting some holes and sticking the drivers in there.  Hey, I certainly don't need to hear that to know what will happen.

So I knew, even with what I was going to do to satisfy some sort of relationship between this baffle wall and my perception to it's function, to take every possible step in order to make it work, I still knew that major failure could come at a price. Let me tell you, as you see the photos of this build and what went into this baffle wall, you will see just how costly this venture is.

First of all, let me explain my reasoning for attempting a baffle wall. I have long been concerned about the detrimental influence of problems such as S.B.I.R. (speaker boundary interference response), pretty much eliminated once the speaker is removed from the room, or at least greatly reduced.

The other major concern that I want to eliminate or at least bring under control, is the influence of inter-aural cross-talk ( the main reason for close proximity of the speakers to an inline direct path to the listener's ears.

Inter-aural cross-talk for those who don't know what it is, is basically a form of criss-crossing signals from the left channel to the right ear, and the right channel sending signals to the left ear respectively. What this creates is confusion to the ear-brain system which destroys the image one would be receptive to in an actual event outdoors free of boundaries, the very same type of confusion which does not exist with headphones. This condition only exists with loudspeakers.  The resulting influence flattens the huge expansion of three dimensional perception that should otherwise be heard.

So the reason why people love headphones so much is that this phenomenon simply does not exist, and therefore, the reason why listening through headphones can be so much better.

Without a physical barrier, or some very sophisticated, and extremely expensive software and components, this condition will always prevail, and it is very difficult to avoid it.  Not impossible, but it can be reduced by specific speaker positioning in perspective to the listeners head position.

I have many times had the good fortune of hearing recordings which reveal some very impressive holographic content, the three dimensional atmosphere which just seems to float around you as if there were no boundaries to interfere. This was all made possible by the use of methods in which to reduce inter-aural cross talk to a minimum.  I even experimented with the actual physical barrier with the speakers just inches apart from each side. (this was many, many years ago). Let me tell you, what I experienced from that experiment was mind blowing to say the least.  That was the closest thing to simulating headphones as one could get back then on a set of speakers.

I am a believer in keeping a system simple and direct, with as minimal external influence as possible.  The more you add to a signal chain, the higher the risk of contamination to the overall system.  It is not worth the trade off if other negative aspects are introduced.  So I do not entertain the idea of additional equipment, and that includes DSP within my system. I don't need that any more than I need a graphic equalizer...lol

That does not apply to external DAC's or something with special purpose such as a Zrock from Decware.  I certainly have full confidence in what these will do for any system.  Other than that, no, just don't want anything else. I like to keep it as pure as possible.

 Just thinking back to the 70's when everybody thought a graphic equalizer was a critical part of a system. They sure did push them through marketing though...imagine that. ;D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/26/24 at 05:59:48
Just going to post one more thing for tonight.  As I said, this leads to the use of these speakers. I designed and built these myself.  You will be hearing a great deal about them later on. I call these Q-force T.Q.W. B.C.E. concepts.  (Tapered Quarter Wave Bass Coupled Extension)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/27/24 at 02:20:28
I did a fresh input of the current "wall to wall" measurements as exist today, to provide some examples of room modal hot spots.  This applies to Bolt's range. Keep in mind that these estimates are based upon prediction, therefore not absolutely correct in the actual outcome of the room.  This does give a fairly good idea as to what to expect from a room this size.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/27/24 at 02:41:39








Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
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Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
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Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
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Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
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Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/27/24 at 04:04:15
So as I can get a relative visual obtained from these prediction points, I also have been provided with a recommended degree of absorption needed based upon my room condition for RT60 results.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/27/24 at 04:34:53
mrchipster, based upon the room dimensions you gave me, here is where you are at currently according to the Bolt Area.



Let me see what I can come up with. I will get back to you.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/27/24 at 05:01:17
mrchipster, here is an example of an improvement made to your room dimensions simply by lowering your ceiling and bringing inward one of the walls.  You don't have to actually move a wall. Just build another wall section inset of the original and utilize that airspace as a huge bass absorber which you will need all that you can get. That cavity is perfect for becoming the "hidden" bass absorber flush within the wall.   You can also consider this type of modification around each wall proportionally to obtain the same room dimensions.  This way there would be no bass absorption units visible within the room. Just something that may interest you.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/27/24 at 05:19:52
Here is another free online calculator that may interest someone. I typed in the URL within the image.  Just make sure that you don't leave a space as shown when you input the link.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/27/24 at 06:05:56
So let's get back to some more interesting eye candy...enough graphs for now. [smiley=tunes26.gif] [smiley=icqlite14.png]

So back to the in-wall system. These are the crossover networks which I designed on XSIM using measured driver data and running the simulator. Changes were made in real time so that I could see the results as values were changed, or circuits modified.  You saw the final outcome on the frequency graph within a range of 30 Hz to 20 kHz. Can't get much flatter than that! These have impedance stabilization circuits built in as well.

Components that make the most difference are premium grade.





Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/27/24 at 06:17:18
And for the lower section of the driver array shown behind the baffle wall.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 05/27/24 at 19:30:47
red pill,

Thanks for the info and your time to give some feedback on my room.
I had used amroc a while back to see how bad (or good) my room was. I had not played with different dimensions at the time since I had no way of modifying the room dimensions as it stands but thanks for digging deeper and providing insight with what may work.

At that time, I realized the room needed a lot of work (I pretty much knew it based on the sound I was getting but was good to confirm). I added quite a bit of treatment (absorption, diffusion, corner traps, etc.) and it helped, but I'll probably add a little more. The saving grace for now is the fact that I've gone with relatively low power/high efficiency equipment and so long as I don't overload the room, I get great full and satisfying music and sound. (and of course Decware is what makes that all possible in my opinion)

I do wish I could crank it more when the mood strikes but that will only be possible with a reasonable room. I'm following this with great interest since I hope one day in the future I can actually create a room from scratch and build it on knowledge and insight from folks like you who are willing to share their ideas and results in a meaningful way.

Looking forward to your continuing documentary.


Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/28/24 at 01:34:42
mrchipster,

Sure, I completely understand your situation. I had serious doubt that you would want to take the room that far, and most people would not.  But at least you know what is possible, and that there are always alternative methods to gain improvement.

The good news is that this is not completely required to obtain your acoustic goal. Starting off with good room dimensions just makes it easier from the start with a lot less complexity.

And of course, you are certainly correct about the need for maximum levels of bass absorption. We ALL have that issue to contend with. The smaller the room, the more absorption required.  Of course the one thing that must always be in the mind of the designer is that it is imperative to maintain a proper balance between absorption, reflection, and diffusion .  The trick is to how one implements a high degree of absorption which can actually absorb down into the critical low frequency registers without over saturation. This condition leads to over damping of the RT60 factor, resulting in a lifeless, dull, and uncomfortable perception of the room signature.

This was my main concern when building my room. That would really be counterproductive as to what we want to achieve here. I knew that the only way to fulfill this huge absorption demand, was to keep it hidden in the background so that it could still do it's intended purpose, yet allow the diffusion devices to make up for the majority of actual surface area in order to keep the music sounding vibrant, crystal clear, and fully intact. Otherwise it would sound like listening to your speakers with a blanket draped over them. This would make for a situation going backwards, only to lend detrimental influence to an already bad situation.

I will be explaining all of this as time goes on in this thread, showing examples as to what I did to insure a positive set of factors to complement each other.

One quick comment about the need for "some" reflection. Why a professional audio room calls for hard surfaced floors is simple.  This goes back to the fact that carpet is not a useful form of absorption for one simple reason. ( Now this is based upon the ideal that the ceiling has undergone major coverage with absorption and diffusion), this a factor which should NEVER be ignored.  With that said, here is the reason for a hard surface floor.

It takes only a very thin piece of absorptive material to over absorb the higher frequencies ( the very reason why rooms with "over absorption" sound dull and lifeless) Since we are mainly focused upon designing absorption units capable of getting into the very lowest frequencies, those responsible for hot spots within the room, that being nodes and anti-nodes. This level of bass absorption alone if not implemented correctly, is way more than enough to "over-absorb" or destroy the delicate high frequencies. WE ONLY NEED TO CORRECT FOR FREQUENCIES BELOW 300 Hz. That is were the real problem lies.

 Primary focus upon designs such as my corner diaphragmatic poly bass traps with reflective metal face plates, work by vibrating at those critical frequencies, converting that sound energy into heat, therefore diminishing its influence upon the room. It takes some seriously well built devices with the proper degree of absorptive material to pull that huge requirement off.  No way would carpet or furniture EVER come close to that ideal effectiveness. All of that just over absorbs the higher frequencies that we want to keep intact.  

Keeping the floor as the only reflective surface in the room is always ideal. Let the actual bass traps do their job, use the floor to walk on.  This keeps the room sounding "LIVE" and crisp.  Now as for the "first bounce reflection" from the speaker to the floor, that can be spot treated if desired with a small thick rug in front of the speaker. Note: it is important to use a good sound absorbent underlay with the engineered flooring, whether it be laminate or hardwood.

I will tell you this from experience. When you finally hear that Decware gear in a well balanced room, that is when you truly understand just how great the quality of those components really are, without the room getting in the way between the music and you.  This discovery really becomes an epiphany in your mind as your brain processes it for the first time. ( Notice I didn't say "mind-blowing"), but in essence, quite relative to the same level of gratification.

I just can't recommend a better upgrade to ones listening perception than a refined acoustic environment. There really is no better return on investment when it comes to audio.   [smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/29/24 at 02:52:25
As another evening rolls by, I will continue where I left off and touch upon some pertinent information that explains my thought process about this project, why I chose to do what I did, and why that is relevant.

So in the beginning before the original walls were torn down, I thought very carefully about the amount of work that was going into the transformation of this room ( which I did myself 100%), and the projected cost of the materials, let alone what my time is worth in labor value. I considered the major factors for which I hoped to achieve in the end, and what it would take to bring those factors into reality for my room. Hey, nobody said this would be easy.. :o

Here were my set of design objectives. First, I needed to make this room as soundproof to the rest of the house as much as I possibly could. Second, I needed to move a wall inward to satisfy the need for better room response which would give this small room a better chance of being successful. Third, I needed total isolation from the outside world so that there was no interference entering the room from the windows. Fourth, the windows would need to be completely eliminated as a very big problem, that being the fact that glass has no place in a serious audio room for obvious reasons. I would have to create sealed heavy duty covers that could easily be removable when needed, but yet make the windows airtight against outside noise. This also keeps the sound level of my music from being heard outside of the windows to where it was nothing above a low level sound at most.

Fifth, I needed to create a double leaf wall for soundproofing the barrier between this room and the adjoining room. I also had to create a way to install double doors with airtight seals in which to keep high SPL levels from being heard through the door. This in itself was a major feat to pull off.  I had to build a thick, heavy, solid door worthy enough of making this happen. No holes could be allowed in the door for locks or door knobs. That would immediately create a path for airborne noise to penetrate, therefore resulting in failure. A new type of lock would have to be designed to prevent this. and still be able to keep the door shut tightly against the frame seals.

Sixth, I wanted to build a stable full scale baffle wall that would be free of resonance, or any source of vibration resulting from the required isolation of the housing for the flush mounted speaker arrays.  I had to consider placement of these speakers within the wall to avoid null areas within the exact line of placement. A null area would create a condition where the output of low frequencies would be severely hampered, causing bass response to suffer. I was taking a huge gamble here, as there was no  real way of being sure the end result because it would have to be tested installed to actually know the results. By placing external speakers into the room along various positions of the wall would tell me nothing, because that would be like comparing apples to oranges. There would not be enough conclusive evidence to formulate a confident decision.

I knew that I wanted close proximity of the speakers as the array aligned directly with my left and right ears. (this has to be done in order to reduce the degree of inter-aural cross-talk. The main reason for flush wall(baffle) mounting of the drivers is to eliminate S.B.I.R.

So those were the main factors for which I had to implement within the design of this room.  And of course, I knew that a huge degree of bass absorption was an absolute requirement in order to give this room a chance.  That being done without creating a dead room from over absorption. I needed to retain a live sounding room, so this balance of interplay was going to be a challenge. Hey, that shouldn't be too difficult should it?   :-?

Just like the way they rebuilt Steve Austin AKA "The Six Million Dollar Man", they could rebuild him, better, stronger, faster!   I guess I will just proceed and see what happens. 

[smiley=icqlite16.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/29/24 at 04:20:20
Oh, and yes, I almost forgot another major factor that I needed to overcome. I had a really poorly designed HVAC system within the room. The return air in the floor was co-joined with the room on the other side of the wall, the one that requires a dual leaf design. The register on the other side of the room was also a source of noise for which the sound of incoming air was way too audible. Not a problem for higher levels of SPL, but for low level listening, or to hear Classical music without interference, this would not be acceptable.  This of course was one more challenge to overcome.

So, the first wall that I started with which had the greatest degree of problems to deal with is shown in the next display of images. I will give a brief amount of input to clarify what each image represents.

This is the left side of the room. This is a shared wall with the adjoining room. This wall also has the doorway, and the HVAC return system.



So as you can see, I have made a great deal of progress with the dual leaf wall addition. The wall extension brings the wall inward another 9 inches. This allows enough room to place an isolation hush box between the wall sections. The hush box acts like a muffler as the outgoing air returns to the floor intake. That intake is now isolated and sealed off from the adjoining room.

If you look closely, you will notice that all existing seams in the old drywall for the other room had to be sealed with flexible acoustic sealant to help soundproof that section. I had to remove the wall outlets from that room and plug up the holes with drywall and sealant. Any protrusion from that wall was not to be allowed, not even a single nail hole.  I also had to seal off any entry points for house wiring. There was to be NO electrical outlets allowed in this wall for the soundproofing to work at all. The light switch would require sound isolation for the new wall under construction. This called for an isolation box to completely seal off the switch.

Any, and ALL areas where contact is made from components touching the floor or frame sections leading to the ceiling for instance, required a full encapsulation of acoustic sealant in order to stop the pathway of resonance throughout the structure.

Shown is a partial installation of rock-wool insulation which is placed between the studs of both walls. The airspace between these wall sections is what provides a large degree of bass absorption within the wall.  This wall actually performs as a giant bass absorber for the room, all the while maintaining a reflective hard surface inside of the room.  There are a build up of various layers which constitute the actual composite structure of the wall itself.  I will go over that later.  The strips of corrugated cardboard material stapled to the studs are there as retainers for the rock-wool to remain stable within the sections.

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING had to be sealed with flexible acoustic sealant. Any point left unsealed became a source for failure.  This room required several hundred dollars of acoustic sealant in order to have the required degree of sound reduction.  That was pre-corona days when everything was much cheaper. That cost would be at least double now. All joints in the floor would also require sealing prior to installing the engineered flooring over quiet walk underlay.



Shown above is the detail showing how the hush box works for the HVAC return system. There are staggered air plenums inside the pathway with the addition of denim insulation to help dampen the sound.  This proved to be extremely effective. No more sound transfer between rooms!




As I no longer required the wall outlets, the house wiring was capped off and secured with electrical tape. You can now see the rock-wool being placed within the new wall section for my side. Another reason for isolating the electrical wires from the other room was to eliminate any contamination into my incoming power supply from devices being tapped into my power source from the room on the other side.  I want to provide as much clean power to this room as possible. I practically have a direct, and almost dedicated source of power now from the fuse box.


;)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/29/24 at 05:04:09
So now this brings up another point which I need to convey about this room.  One of the great benefits I have with this room location within the house is that #1: It is an upstairs corner room with two of the walls being brick on the outside. #2: Above the ceiling is the attic. The joists in the attic above the room are filled with heavy layers of insulation. Both fiberglass and blown in cellulose types. So this does indeed help to provide some degree of sound reduction and bass absorption. Those heavy duty joists also become strong anchor points for which to hang my massive ceiling diffuser/absorption devices. #3: This room sits directly over the garage...no problems there. #4: I conveniently have dual closets, isolated by a center dividing wall which will be utilized as sealed air spaces behind the speaker baffle wall. This acts to provide the appropriate airspace needed for the rear waves of the driver arrays to flow without restriction. And most importantly, remain isolated from the main listening area forward of the baffle wall.  The fact that these twin closets existed was what gave me the idea of building a baffle wall. I saw this as a perfect opportunity.

Now one thing did occur to me that would have made a major sacrifice to the house layout. I knew that the unused bedroom on the backside of the closet space was beckoning me to expand this entire space into one large listening room. That would have been a major step in resolving my acoustic problems.  But I knew this would not be a wise thing to do, and besides, NO way in hell was my wife going to allow me to do such a thing!  I am lucky she went along with this dedicated audio room. She understands where I am coming from, and remains very understanding of that, but to eliminate a bedroom from a four bedroom house was not acceptable. It goes without question. The concept of it sounded so great, but then faltered quickly as logic set in.   [smiley=icqlite21.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/29/24 at 06:33:29
Continuing down the dual leaf wall towards the entry doorway and front wall.





View of doorway header after the wall expansion. There is a level of isolation maintained throughout the structure. This can be seen between the header sections.



The sealed light switch within it's custom sealed housing mounted to the frame.

ROXUL rockwool has excellent sound absorbing properties. It is far safer to work with for installation than fluffy fiberglass. Plus no itching or unpleasant odors to deal with. This product fits nicely with a snug fitting between the studs.  It is very easy to trim or cut with a bread knife. Highly recommended for this application.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/29/24 at 17:06:26
Closure of the dual leaf wall advances.








Detailed view (turned sideways) of sealed light switch housing shown mounted to the frame.







Looking down at the sealed isolation box housing the light switch.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/29/24 at 18:25:47



The original door had to be reversed to open on the other side of the frame. the frame was modified to add a lip for installing a door seal. This door opens outward into the hallway now.






It was now time to build the solid door which opens normally into the inside of the room. This door has to be as soundproof as possible.  Note: it is seen installed in the image above.  The next image shows it being assembled.



The door is a 3 layer design using 3/4 veneered plywood for the top layer, a 3/4 inch MDF back layer, forming a sandwich with a pine wood frame between them. There is an air space at the upper and lower sections. This space was loosely filled with sound damping material as the sheets went together. The layers are sealed together and held together with heavy duty carriage bolts which are mounted flush. The outer circumference of the door is capped with a solid hardwood frame prior to installation.

The finished door is very heavy which requires a minimum of three heavy duty hinges. There will be NO holes drilled through this door with the exception of the press fit carriage bolts which are sealed in place wet. Standard type door knobs and locks will not work for this application.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/29/24 at 21:31:40
The 1/2 inch OSB being installed with each seam being centered on a stud every time.  Each and every joint must be centered over a stud to insure a positive tight seal along with a solid connection. Acoustic sealant must be applied to the edges during installation. This paneling must be airtight.

You may note that all contact surfaces have felt attached to create an isolation barrier between the layers. This helps to minimize the transference of low frequency resonance.













Just about done closing up this wall with OSB. The next layer is Coroplast, which is a polypropylene corrugated material designed with rows of air pockets which is encased airtight.

This Coroplast provides an additional layer within the wall structure composition. The idea is to become a buffer between the layer of OSB, and the drywall so that the two hard surfaces do not contact each other. In my view, this layer acts like a spring, providing resistance to the flow of sound or resonance as it passes through.

Again, another attempt to further reduce the transmission of resonance through the wall. This will also add to the effectiveness of this wall to act like a very large bass absorber. This does create a full scale degree of airtight pockets which logically make sense to use for this purpose.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/29/24 at 23:47:58
The Coroplast is shown already installed over the OSB. This image shows the last full sheet of 5/8 type X drywall being sealed and secured to the wall structure. As always, this is absolutely critical that all seams are sealed airtight. That includes the perimeter of each panel as it gets attached to the studs and general framework.







It is time to move on to the front wall next.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/30/24 at 00:47:15
Here we start with the bare bone facts. This is what I envisioned in my mind as I sat and thought about my room execution for better acoustics. You are viewing the twin closets with a center dividing section to keep them isolated. That closet is associated with the bedroom on the other side of these closet spaces. The space next to the entry door has the access hatch for the attic. That is another project I had to deal with. That attic hatch needed rebuilt into an airtight heavy duty upgrade.

I totally rebuilt that framework to provide the symmetrical configuration required to serve my purpose. Of course this is nowhere near what it looked like when I removed the old drywall.



Now you can see how tempting it was for me to just remove this entire section and open the space up all the way to integrate both rooms.  Of course that was never really an option. This would have really been a great listening room if I had acquired all of that volume at my disposal.

Hey, I at least tried to convince my wife that if I could just push back the wall to where I could use the closet space, expanding my current audio room a few more feet in length, then build a double leaf wall for soundproofing, that I would be very pleased, and there would still be the other bedroom.  I already knew what that answer was going to be, and I definitely was not surprised! Life is always about compromise, and this was no exception.

;D  

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Donnie on 05/30/24 at 03:02:43
I have questions!

I've never heard of anyone working so hard to seal everything up before, what exactly will that do for the room? Are you trying to pressurise the room?

I know that you haven't gotten to the floor yet, I assume that you are going to put something over the reflective surfaces. In my very limited experience the floor seemed to be the most important surface as far as making the rooms sound right.

For example, Decware's listening room really came into focus when Steve put in the carpet squares a few years back.
It was weird to me that when I first walked into Steve's room after the carpet was installed of how much better it sounded.

Again I'm not any kind of golden ear person, just a guy who likes music, but for whatever reason a good sounding room always gets my attention.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/30/24 at 06:04:34
Hey Donnie, Glad you asked.

I will try an attempt to convince you as to why this is so important. I think it will make sense to you.  If you disagree, then not a problem. But at least you asked.

I shall reiterate in another form of explanation in order to make sense of this to all in question.  Again, this is a very in-depth experiment for which I knew from the beginning would either be hit or miss in the outcome.

However, in a nut shell, the main reason for sealing everything air-tight is to reduce sound from leaking past the structure.  The sealant helps to avoid failure points for which any chance of sound reduction becomes null and void.  Now listen, I know very well that sound reduction is a very difficult thing to achieve, and there is a limit as to what one can do to enforce it.  That is acoustics 101.

It is a matter of design, and the materials used that will determine the level of sound reduction one achieves in a room.

The absolute best way, is to build a "room within a room", with full and absolute isolation from the surrounding structure. The second best method is to use dual leaf walls. But when you don't have that, it is vital to do everything possible to reduce the problem within a common structure. Using acoustic sealant is absolutely vital to this objective.

If I were to task you with building a metal container to hold water, using separate pieces of metal, with only the method of seam riveting used, how well do you think it will hold up without a leak as a result of omitting sealant? Not only along the structure seams, but the rivets themselves?  So does that not make sense when it comes to house structures which by the way, are not exactly built with tight tolerances?  At least not the older homes.  But I am referring to structure tolerances, not how airtight a house is against air leaks in general.

It is almost impossible to stop bass frequencies, but they can be greatly reduced with extreme measures.  The point of using sealant is secondary, but just as critical in order to prevent this transfer of noise/energy. If there is any crack or opening, no matter how tiny, sound will travel through that area, and so much for sound reduction.

You may ask yourself, why place vibration resistant feet under sensitive electronic equipment? Why place resonant free platforms under tube amplifiers to reduce the chance of negative influence upon the transformers and tubes?  If you understand those reasons, then understanding the use of acoustic sealant at every turn should be clear and relevant to the end result.

One of my primary concerns in building this room this way is to attempt a strong reduction in resonance from traveling through the walls, through the cracks, through any opening what-so-ever, all of which would make all of this pointless in the end. So yes,  these sealed spaces actually do pressurize by the back waves from the speaker array....40 inches of bass drivers per side. This is a bit like if they were mounted inside a speaker cabinet. The rear waves are prevented from exiting forward of the baffle wall. It is extremely important that this baffle wall remains stable and resonate free as much as possible. I don't need the structure to become excited by the lower frequencies and therefore begin resonating. Once that happens, this system has failed. The sealant between all joints acts like a resilient buffer in which to help block that transfer of energy.

I am subjecting a great deal of pressure behind this baffle wall from the the bass drivers at higher SPL input.  Just think about a new dodge demon with a supercharged hemi, pushing upwards of 1200 HP , and just running straight pipes.  Hit that throttle for a second and see what that does to the windows in the house.  Put the regular exhaust back on and everything is okay.  Perhaps a bit extreme as an example, but relative to get the point across.

 The main point of this no matter what, is to insure the best chance of soundproofing through isolation of the room boundaries. When I close the door and turn up the system, I don't want the house complaining about how loud my music is.  Look, this room was finished several years ago, I am just revealing the story of how it developed and why I did it that way.  I do intend to explain everything as much as possible. There is a reason for everything I do here, again, much of it is experimental. Whether right or wrong, I can at least say that I actually tried it and know the outcome from experience.

Now I am not ready to divulge the results of this experiment yet, but this whole story is leading to that conclusion. I am not going to disclose that result yet.  Let's just say that this system was put to the test for over 6 months. So I would imagine for something to remain as a daily system without rearing a multitude of problems, it would make sense to me anyway that something must have worked out alright with this baffle wall.

 However, it is nothing for me to reinstate the baffle wall back to it's original solid form. When the experiment is over, and if I decide not to retain the speaker array in the baffles, then not a problem. I prepared for the quick conversion back to a solid wall when I designed this system, knowing full well that there was a strong chance I will eventually do so. No two rooms are the same, No two rooms can have the same results. What works in one situation may very well fail in another. That is common knowledge.  

I am just going to leave you with this fact. I know from experience and everyday use of this room, that this works very well.  Regardless of the influence for which the sealant played upon all of this, the point is, my end result is spectacular! Far better than I anticipated. It is not perfect, nor is it by any means 100 percent soundproof. Then again, how many rooms really are?  Probably not very many.

My objective was to achieve a respectable degree of sound reduction to the point where I was not disturbing the house with resonating bass frequencies traveling throughout which would limit my use of higher output from the amplifier. This is one of the greatest problems with audio...disturbance from low frequencies. Seems to be a root cause for many types of problems in audio.  However, I can now play the system at some very intense levels without upsetting members of the family, or entertaining the neighbors. I can do this without walls shaking or having some crazy rattle constantly taxi my nerves.

As a before and after comparison, this room before was absolutely awful. There was always a major problem with external noise coming in, and any level of noise made within the room traveling out. I had to play my music at low levels or it became a problem in the house.  Besides, the acoustic situation was unbearable in this room to say the least.  It really was pointless to expect hearing good quality music within these boundaries.

 Now, that situation is the farthest thing from the truth. I simply could not be happier with a room this size. When I build things, I don't take shortcuts, and I don't use inferior materials! Do it right the first time or don't do it at all.  That is the difference between a novice, and a seasoned professional.  Build it right and it will last. Build it right and it will perform upon your expectations.

 I am forced to deal with a small room, but that does not mean It has to react like a small room.  It has worked out for me very, very well.  Anyway, my objective here is not to convince anybody of anything. Do it the way you want to. I am just relaying my own results.

 Thanks for the input.

[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Donnie on 05/30/24 at 15:10:21
Interesting concept, I've never heard of anything like that before.

I will continue to follow your journey and see how it all comes to fruition.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/31/24 at 05:07:34
Some images of the construction phase for the front baffle wall buildup.





This is a section that will become a mid-range diaphragmatic absorber module. This gets filled with rock-wool with an airspace between it and a flexible steel plate which goes onto the front flush with the wall and held in place with acoustic sealant. Frames made of MDF will get installed within these chambers.





This view is looking up at the center divider between the two closets. This will act as an isolation barrier between the two channels. Note that there is isolation between the two closet sections. The center divider is built like a dual leaf wall.





This view is inside of the closet space which sits behind the baffle wall. The attic access is seen above.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/03/24 at 05:27:44
Continuing on with the build up of the wall layers within the closet spaces behind the baffle wall. As you can see, tedious detail involving the airtight structure that must be achieved when finished. As close of structure tolerances as possible along with a huge amount of acoustic sealant.














The inset frame support for the single woofer shown being prepared for lining with Quiet Walk sound absorbing barrier (flooring underlay). This will act as a buffer between the frame and the MDF inner frame which floats snugly inside with only acoustic sealant keeping it in place. Absolutely NO fasteners are allowed for installing these. That would create a path for vibration to follow into the wall from the energy of the bass driver. Complete isolation is mandatory here.



Looking at the wall edge for the closet entry door. This shows the layers starting with the felt strips, the 1/2 inch OSB, and the Coroplast liner. Next layer will be 5/8 Type X drywall.



Looking at the next images, you see the center divider between the closet spaces being filled with Roxul rockwool. Shown is the first layer going in with the cardboard retainers holding it in place. An airspace must be maintained between the two layers of rockwool for optimal bass absorption. After this, the next step is to layer the Roxul for the other closet space. This must be done prior to installing the next layer of 1/2 inch OSB.













View looking down between the dual leaf divider section. This allows the required isolation with minimal transference between these two closet spaces. This is shown before installing the rockwool.






A sheet of Coroplast polypropylene material staged as the next layer of sound buffering between the OSB and the drywall.



Installing 1/2 inch filler rod wet with acoustic sealant between the section corners and joints. This keeps the adjacent walls from touching each other, yet sealing up the gaps airtight.















The drywall is installed inside of the closet space for the bedroom on the other side of the wall. That open space will need closed up to match the other side. Note, this is only going to be done with temporary measures due to the fact that this closet space may need to be returned for use with the other bedroom in the future. Some sealed channel solid wood doors are in order here. I need to have access into this space.



All joints/seams sealed up with acoustic sealant. This section is ready for mud and paint.







Next I will be going to the front side of this baffle wall to start preparing the staggered in-wall mid-range diaphragmatic action absorber modules which require flexible metal face plates and an airspace between them and the rockwool inside of the compartments. These are built into the majority of the wall space around the baffle driver arrays.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/05/24 at 06:17:32
I am advancing ahead in the build since I think most people are getting bored, and this should really be seen to be understood. But hey, It is a challenge to keep the masses interested in acoustics, even though great interest should be strong for anyone wanting to know why their small audio room sounds so bad. Hey, after all, what have I gained from all of this?

 Reminder: THIS BUILD WAS FINISHED FOUR YEARS AGO. Since then, I have moved on with changes which have synchronized almost perfectly into what I have today.

Look, I want so badly to just jump ahead, and reveal everything I have experienced to date. (and as exciting as my current room acoustics are, not to mention what this does for my music), this will have to wait. Have patience, there is plenty of time here. After all, this story is all about my experience, and what these changes have done for me. I think many of you can relate to that.

I know many people today live in a "microwave processed world". But guess what, if you are really interested in something that will completely change your perspective on what a professional grade standard of excellence is like within a properly built audio room, this is something you really must experience to understand where I am coming from.

The end result is DRAMATIC, and SO realistic, that it would only take less than five minutes of your time to experience this room, and know exactly what I am talking about. You know, that is really the only way this can ever be truly conveyed. How can I possibly be expected to express what I have achieved today, when it only takes a few minutes of listening, to completely understand how huge this really is. This absolutely can NOT be conveyed over the internet. All of the audio graphs in the world are certainly never going to make the truth clear to you. This simply can only be perceived in an actual listening session.

 When I listen to well made studio recordings with my current configuration, I am stunned into just how deep the rabbit hole goes once the "Holy Grail" of music perception is experienced. Not just heard, that would be way too simple. But to be connected at a high level of bliss with every sense of perception possible to the maximum degree. I am now connected to the music, in a very physical manner to where my emotions are radically to the point where I feel as if I am "inside" of the music, free from boundaries. It is now automatic to completely forget that I am listening to speakers in a room. I have finally after all of these years(decades actually) been granted the experience I have always yearned after. If it were anything less, then this whole thing is pointless for me. Anything else falls short of what I am expecting.

In case you can't tell, I am very excited about what I experience now. I have never come close to hearing, feeling, or connecting to the music as I do now. It is a deep emotional connection that I have with the music as a result of all this. Something that I never experienced on this level of satisfaction before. This is as close to being in a live audience, listening to a huge symphony orchestra on stage, within an abundant spatial environment as I could ever get without actually being there. The pinpoint accuracy and crystal clear detail which seems to just float around your head is something that takes you to a completely advanced perception of what your recordings actually have to reveal. That did not happen overnight. It took a great deal of disciplined engineering on my part to make this happen. I can only say that I wish all that enjoy audio could experience this. It really takes things up several levels. That is why I stated, "My Audio Journey Evolution is in the final stage". I really have no reason to look any farther other than a degree of curiosity which we all have been influenced by.. That is how satisfied I am with my current room and system. But this does not mean I won't try other things or perhaps add a few more acoustic devices just to see if there actually can be something else extracted from the music.

*Spoiler alert: I am planning on enhancing the front wall, and the forward sections of the side walls with custom six feet tall poly-cylindrical diffusers based upon the advanced Ternary concept. I may even introduce some changes to that design in order to make it a "Quaternary" level of diffusion. I have an exact vision of that model standing directly between the speakers in alignment for which to immediately dissolve those nasty diffractions that ruin natural perception as would be well focused in a real world event. You know, that "ear-brain" perception to what is real, and what is "not real"? I have been wanting to experiment with this concept for a long time. I am now ready to see where this may take me. I plan to build this design concept at the end of this year. Expect to hear more about this around January 2025.

In addition, I have the plans laid out for a reduced scale (80%) version of the "lil headwrecker" design. I am only using that model as a starting base. I read about so much joy expressed from Steve about these speaker designs, (pretty much conveys the way I feel about my current audio room), that the curiosity factor took control of my thoughts and I knew I had to build a take on these.

This reduced version is built to accommodate a 8-inch full range driver. The major change is that I am going to alter this design with a 5 degree slope within the entire cabinet where everything is as if someone "warped" the entire speaker to where it leans backward proportionally.  Nothing changes internally to screw up the folded horn. I know from experience that a speaker raked backward anywhere from 3 to 7 degrees is usually something that takes the perception of the speaker to a higher level. I prefer not to build speakers with standard box shapes. Even though I am completely satisfied, I still want to build this design to make that "what if" comparison. Anything over an 8 inch driver design in my audio room would be overkill.

So, I expect to be testing that set of speakers sometime in January of next year as well. It is really all about challenge. I just want to see how far this project can go. And of course, if I do order the latest Torii amplifier design, then this will also be factored in on future results. I am seriously considering it.  I would like an additional amp for another room anyway.  Of course that is not about to happen for at least a couple of years with the current rate of production on amplifiers.

Yes, I am curious about the latest generation of Torii amps. And I just may treat myself to the current model, but I really don't feel the need to do so. That will have to be one of those comparisons that I have to "experience" in my well balanced audio room, as a direct challenge to my current amp.

As I said before, I am always up for a good challenge, and I do want to know if I am really going to gain anything worthwhile enough to justify the huge cost. That remains to be heard, and I will tell you if I am taken to another level. I can assure you of one thing, if that gain is to be solidified within my mind, then this room is the ideal setting to make that happen.

Forget about the common factors of size ratios. I have gone way past that, making huge discoveries as to how great a small room can be when executed properly. It can be done, and I have proven that all too well. So much for what the "Audio Experts" would have you believe!

 And one more thing, I didn't have to remortgage my house in order to stuff my walls with activated carbon to achieve my goal. I do understand the theoretical approach to how that product works, and apparently, it works very well.  I just can't justify spending that much money for something of this purpose. And argue if you will, but I don't need it. I achieved my goal without it.  If the cost factor would have been more reasonable on bulk activated carbon, I actually did want to go this route. Looking back, I do not regret in any way making the choice I use now.

  I have not disclosed what my current system is and what it took to get me where I am at now in 2024. That will be in due time.  That is if enough interest is expressed within this thread. Hint: It is so great now that I am doubting the need for the Zrock3 for well produced recordings. I do have enough mediocre recordings that lack the depth, definition, spatial information, and especially dynamic range to justify the need for the unit. This in contrast to my properly mastered recordings which simply do not need reinforcement in my situation. But I am hoping that something special actually does transpire, even from these high quality selections. I can tell you that dynamic range with a deep bottom end is not something I would need help with on A list recordings. My current speakers produce an Fs of 27 Hz. and they are extremely efficient. I only require 30 percent of the volume control using the ToriiMk3 to bring these speakers at full levels of dynamic bliss!

When it feels like the drummer and bassist are on stage in front of you, that is when the system has my full attention.

Those dull recordings are the reason why I have this unit on order.  If all recordings did everything right like the ones in my A list, then there would simply be nothing to gain from the Zrock3, at least not that I could possibly imagine. But hey, I am up for the challenge. If there is any possible improvement on my A list recordings, then I am simply going to be so excited that I just may feel euphoric enough to remain in the audio room with the exception of necessary bathroom visits and the need for a meal and a cold drink.. There are some nights that everything sounds so fantastic, where I am almost to that point now. If I get punched any harder than what the dynamics of my system are doing to me now, then I may start developing bruises.....well, you know.....just a silly expression, but it certainly does come to mind.

 The only way to be sure is through listening.  I am very interested to find out what may be in store for me.

Again, the entire point of this whole experiment is to actually know the difference of how extreme measures can finally place me within a state of mind that I have nothing else to gain, and be completely confident with that acknowledgement.  I have made it to that advanced level of perception....finally!

I was not going to mention anything about all of this until later, but I think there needs to be some stimulation injected here before people go to sleep on me...LOL   ;D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 06/06/24 at 02:04:03
The level of knowledge, craftmanship, and skill is off the charts here.

The willingness to push head long into this type of endeavor knowing there may be issues that could force you to restart is admirable. Tons of blood, sweat, and tears. (maybe not so much tears as cursing lol) I imagine there was quite a bit of engineering/testing done to mitigate any and all failure points.

Maybe after all is said and done you could elaborate on how you acquired the knowledge of all these concepts, but for now I'm certainly satisfied in following along and looking at the amazing sequence of photos.

This certainly gives hope to folks who have a small room and didn't think much could be done to significantly improve things. I'm not sure I could take things this far but I'm looking forward to understanding these concepts and ideas that can one day help me design my own approach to treating a room. I'm hoping in the future I can start out with a larger room than what I have now and do the right things to turn it into a real music room. As you noted, starting out with at least a reasonable dimension makes treating it a little easier. I'm looking forward to that.

When you have a chance can you give some insight into how you came up with and built the binary sequence diffusor? That seems like a critical component when treating a small room.

When you can divulge the audio equipment you use in your room please do. What you used 4 years ago and what you're using now. Looking forward to also hearing your impressions and journey of those speakers you built. They look very interesting.

Gotta give you all the props for your dedication to following your audio dream and making it happen!
Takes a special kind of person and you certainly seem to have what it takes.

The engineer side of my brain marvels at this feat and wants to understand it all (acoustically and otherwise) but the other side of my brain just wants to sit in that room and experience and enjoy it, not caring what the hell the engineering side thinks...

Anyway, please keep the commentary and photos coming, really enjoying them.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/07/24 at 06:27:44
Hey there mrchipster, thanks for the very nice reply!

At least you didn't place any pressure upon me [smiley=lolk.gif]

Anyway, let me place a bit of input here regarding your inquiry made with some well respected questions.

Now as far as my skill and craftsmanship are concerned, I am very disciplined in my endeavors. I always place as much of my self into my projects as one could ever imagine. I like taking things to extreme measures. I also like to try things outside of the proverbial "box".  I have always been a believer in doing things as well as one can do, and if that fails, keep learning and keep pushing forward. That just seems to be a good strong relationship with life, and it always seems to work well for me.

I am sure that my upbringing had something to do with that. I came from a generation of those that have the passion to seek knowledge concerning things of great interest. When I was a kid, (the 60's), I remember being on our land out in the countryside. It was common for Air Force fighter aircraft to do low level passes across our farm. I now know that these included 107 Star-fighters, F-102 Delta Dagger's, and later on, A7 Corsair II. This observation ignited a passion within me to one day become a fighter pilot, something I desired more than anything as a result of those exhilarating flyovers.  The incredible shock waves as these jets streaked through the skies was something I could have never imagined without actually experiencing it.

That was a glorious decade with the developing space missions unfolding.  Experience transcends our knowledge straightforward into an admirable level of execution within our future. The Mercury missions leading up to the Apollo program became an extreme inspiration to Americans of that time period. I was always fascinated by technology and what was possible in the future.

Long story short, I was never allowed that opportunity to reach for the goal of being in control of those fascinating aircraft as my eyesight was below standards with strict denial of corrective lenses at that time. So that ended my dream as it became very clear this was not going to happen. I would have at least liked the opportunity to try. The washout rate is high, and many can't hack it. Very demanding both physically and mentally, not to mention the skills which must be acquired. A bachelor's degree is required just to get into OTS, (have to graduate as an officer first) then flight school....damn if that isn't a journey within itself!  

I remember being offered a chance to transfer into the army as a warrant officer if I passed combat helicopter training. The Army was needing to fill a shortage of chopper pilots, therefore scouting for candidates. Again, washout rate high, very difficult program to succeed in, and of course, flying a military helicopter is no easy task. The downside, if washed out of flight training, I am stuck in the army, and not for what I was hoping to achieve.  NO WAY was I going to risk that. I recall being stationed in Korea back in the early 80's, we were located very close to the DMZ. The army would occasionally land on our base with swarms of Bell attack Cobra's. That was a sight to behold and get swept up in. With the newly advanced Boeing AH-64 Apache, how could one not entertain the idea of being in control of that firepower!  Sure, it sounded like an interesting offer, but the stakes were high and I had to say no.

Anyway, my proud heritage as an American and to the country I served to protect, led me to the choice of serving the USAF because my family served, and it was my duty to do the same. Going back to my fascination with military fighter jets, I knew that I wanted to be involved with them technically since I was never going to have the chance of flight status, at least not as a pilot. I continued for almost nine years of active duty service learning and experiencing as much as I possibly could about aviation. It was a thrilling experience to be part of that. With a very specialized background and a high level security clearance, this provided a very interesting path into my civilian future. I will always have that state of mind. That is not something which can be erased after years of disciplined dedication to service. To have experienced first hand and up close highly sensitive projects such as the SR71 blackbird during the early 80's, and where this led up to future technology, very much summed up an achievement for which I am very honored to have been part of. This would have never happened had I never followed my dream as a young kid.

Even though I did not take the exact path of my childhood dream, I found a way to live that experience in an alternative way that was close enough to feel connected.

I suppose in some sense of the way, this seems to be a completely elaborate tangent off the path to relevance here, but I think it does form a pattern of what makes me think the way I do, and what force guides me with the inspiration to make something of interest happen. Why talk about it when I can actually make a difference. We all can if we take the initiative to follow through with what we desire.

Man, did I really just put you through all of that!  Sorry, this is what happens when I get to thinking, and memories flash back as if they just occurred.  I do think it helps for you to relate to who I am, and what drives me within endeavors such as acoustics.

Okay, enough of life history, let's move forward with what motivated me to take interest in acoustics.

  [smiley=icqlite14.png]


Alright, back on track to your inquiry. I can look back to my journey involving the science of acoustics and why this field intrigued me into an inspirational lesson of the world around me. Actually, I had my first bizarre audio experience back in 1986 when I was stationed in Iceland (The 57 F.I.S. fighter interceptor squadron, the Black Knights), was that ever a fun time!

So imagine this, we have small rooms that are shared by two individuals. Not much space there, bunk beds, side closets, and some space for sitting inside of the room. That sounds horrific for a space that one would want to enjoy listening to a stereo. This is why there is actual significance to this situation.  I had my studio grade Akai 747 DBX type 1 reel to reel, my dual carver M-1.0t amps bridged mono, the carver 4000t Sonic Holography Auto-Correllation Preamplifier, and the Carver CD player all in this room. Believe it or not, I had double stacked Acoustic Research AR 98-LS speakers sitting up from the floor with stands against the back wall between the bunk beds and the closets. I also had the DBX RTA (real time analysis)10/20 computerized graphic equalizer and room analyzer with a pink noise generator and calibrated microphone to set the rooms best response curve. That was quite the system for the day!

So after setting the response curve to as "optimal as possible" with the pink noise generator, and utilizing the Sonic Holographic Setting on the 4000t, I recall something that simply stunned me as I had never experienced anything like what was about to happen, ( I can assure you that this was the result of these two units creating this magic). Some recordings have special effects placed into them from the mastering process which can have strange phasing upon playback as intended by the technician, this creating a three dimensional illusion. The soundtrack I am about to play I have heard many times on other systems. I can assure you that this track never sounded anything like this. I played The Eurythmics track : Like A Ball And Chain. During this song, a huge trail of wind surges through the air as an imaginary "ball" going in complete circles around my head, with a distance which seemed to extend way beyond the limits of the room.  This really took my senses and shook them up a bit. I just could not believe what I just heard. It really seemed as if this ball was going completely around my head. I think I even looked around as if I expected the ball to be real. The three dimensional illusion was very real!

Now mind you, this took place in a very small room which should sound like total garbage acoustically. Normally, that would have been the case, but the RTA saved the day with real time monitoring and response calibration.

Hint, that alone should relate to some sort of significance as to why room size is not always the deciding factor in acoustic perception of a larger space.

A couple of other prime examples which many audiophiles relate to are two recordings by Pink Floyd. The Dark Side Of The Moon, and my favorite, Wish You Were Here.  Oh, it gets really good here! As a prelude to "Time", there are two rows of various clocks set within the soundtrack. Any fan knows what I am referring to. Usually, this sounds just like a direct two dimensional spread in front of the listener. What I experience is much different, and far more interesting.

I am sure that the recording engineer ( I believe that was Alan Parsons), intended for this spacey floating effect of the clocks ticking, and alarms going off throughout the listening space to be realized within a wide dimensional aspect, but most systems  do not actually convey this special effect. For the system I was hearing this on now, things were about to change radically for me in how this was about to unfold in a whole new dimension. With my eyes closed as to not allow my perception of sight to influence my perception of time and space, I let this illusion unfold around me as if I had just discovered something completely beyond comprehension.

These were no longer two direct rows of clocks spaced in close proximity. Now, these clocks with pinpoint accuracy and sense of complete reality just began to float around me, as if some were stationary in high corners of the room, others as if in the middle, and then those that seemed to drift all in between, and also beyond to what seemed to the far rear sides of my head. The sound of the gears turning, the ticking of time, and the mesmerizing chime of the alarms going off in unison.  Yeah, it really did take me to a much higher level of audio experience. I certainly was baffled as to how this was possible in such a small room, regardless of the electronic enhancements being utilized. Then came that fantastic intro of "Welcome To The Machine" on the Wish You Were Here album. An EMS VCS3 synthesizer was used to create these effects which just lure you into the image of being there on this imaginary journey. The corridors of air lock doors as you would be lured through from one corridor to another is very convincing if you hear it the way it was intended to be heard. You definitely need a system capable of very low frequency response and a healthy supply of power to appreciate this title.

So into the future, back in the USA around 1989, I separated from the military and was now a civilian again. I decided to sell some of my gear for some extra cash to start over again. Unfortunately that decision included the DBX RTA and my superb Akai 747 reel to reel which I still regret today. I did purchase a new set of Carver "Amazing Loudspeakers" in the late 80's.

(A two-way hybrid with a ribbon operating full-range above about 100Hz, and a dipole bass system featuring four 12" woofers in a finite baffle loading. Nominal impedance: 6 ohms. Sensitivity: 88dB/1W/1m. Maximum SPL: 113dB symphonic music, 110dB rock music.)

I continued to drive these with the twin M-1.0t amps bridged mono, and the 4000t holographic pre-amp.  These giant dipole speakers laid back at a 5 degree rake, sounded very open and detailed. Even though I had sold the very piece of equipment which really made the three dimensional perception the most revealing, I was still getting a robust three dimensional spread from these large baffle speakers. As you can imagine from the low sensitivity rating, these demanded very large reserves of power to drive. When that power was delivered, these really hit hard with the low frequency content. Of course the huge array of ribbon elements is what made these speakers sound very good. With this new system, I still brought out some very interesting information from the music in three dimensional space, but never like I experienced with the real time analyzer.

So I accepted things as they were at that time and let it be. I was now building up a decent home theater system so there were some new toys being introduced for that purpose. I had a set of small NHT speakers on pedestals used for the front mains.

Now one day, I decided to experiment in a larger open room. I wanted to utilize the old solid barrier technique with the speakers placed directly on each side of this solid barrier (3/4 inch plywood or MDF). This technique was used to reveal how ambio-phonics worked and sounded in binaural fashion. This separates and removes the unwanted binaural cross-talk from the speakers, therefore eliminating the ear-brain confusion one gets with this detrimental flaw in a normal stereo configuration of the loudspeakers. Now this is only intended as an experiment to provide the listener with what happens when this binaural cross-talk is removed from the speakers. I certainly would not take to listening like this all of the time, as nobody would. Due to the fact that you must have your nose directly at the edge of the barrier to be able to perceive this effect in full form is the only reason necessary to know that this form of listening is not practical or even remotely warranted as a sane thing to do. I could just imagine my wife walking in and seeing me do that.  Pretty sure she would be convinced that I have lost it!  


But what happens as a result is simply mesmerizing, the truth reveals itself, and for the first time, you actually experience what has been suppressed within the music on normal stereo playback. The audio truth had set me free, and I knew this was a newer level of standard that I must achieve if I am ever going to be satisfied with my listening experience using a stereo set of speakers again.

So in this experiment, I simply had the speakers, the barrier, and for amplification, I used my Sunfire Signature Grand 5.1 surround amp in stereo mode.  During this time period, I had a set of Decware SET mono-blocks with the radial speakers, a Teres turntable, and a ARCAM Alpha 9 CD player with the Ring DAC.  I can assure you that even though that combination sounded very nice, it simply was not producing the effect I required from a system. I knew that huge tailoring of room acoustics was the only hope of doing so.  

This story continues on...I shall have to post again to proceed. Sorry for going off the deep end...very typical of my story telling.
 

:o

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Gilf on 06/07/24 at 11:49:21
I neglected to say earlier, thank you for your service.

In the 90’s I built a recording studio in part of my home, building a “room inside a room”, and this thread brings back memories of that. The floor rested on a concrete slab, cushioned by high density foam spacers. From there the internal walls did not touch any other walls, with the exception of the double windows between the control room and the main live room. This design had more to do with sound proofing each space to allow better hearing of what was recorded and less bleed from any outside noise leaking into the microphones. I wonder now how that space may have performed as a listening room. At that time in my life music was work and there was a good decade or two that music was not necessarily something I could sit back and enjoy. It took a hiatus for me to return to music for pure enjoyment, and I’m realizing now writing this how being overly analytic and constantly searching for better sound quickly puts me back into that head space that music is work. For this reason I remember that I really love my very simplistic system that images all around me and is quite good enough. :)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/08/24 at 01:20:05
Hello Gilf, thank you. That was certainly an interesting time in my life.

So yes, I completely get your point concerning the separation of work and play. This is like a full time chef who slaves to keep his restaurant profitable as he spends countless hours doing so.  I can imagine the desire for making his own meal became a burden after awhile.  probably had a great deal of ready made dinners...or someone else prepared his meals.

;D

Funny you should mention the studio within your home. I realized that my audio room could very well be used for making high quality recordings as if it were a studio built for that purpose. There are very close parallels between the two room requirements. Although a room built just for listening does not have to be soundproof like a studio, but it sure does help. The one common thread between the two rooms is acoustics. That remains a constant for great music, whether recording or playback.

You did start off with a very solid platform for which a dedicated listening room can shine it's brightest. I am sure most people have not gone that far. Sounds like the studio you built would sound very good with the proper treatment of course. I am sure that you had that covered very well being a professional working environment.

I would like to mention one thing that stands out about my room when you walk in for the first time.  I have a feeling that your studio gave the same vibe.  After sitting down with the airtight door locked, I remember the first time I actually did this and just sat there marveling at how peaceful and serene the feeling of this space was.  I found it immediately relaxing and soooo very, very quiet!  I actually thought I could hear the blood flowing in my ears...so the level of blackness within the room paid off with all of the treatment and acoustic sealant.  I just knew that music was going to sound great in here.  You know, I may have been on to something.

I do thank you for chiming in here and conveying your story. I think that the scenario you provided helps to formulate just how influential these types of changes make to a good listening room/studio within the minds of those just learning about acoustics.

I am glad that you found solace within your music after such a long departure with music as a sense of enjoyment.  Kind of reminds me of a call girl's lifestyle....just can't take her work home with her..   [smiley=icqlite14.png]

The only thing that really matters is that you are satisfied and completely content with your situation now. If we could all be like that, there might be some extra cash in the bank.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/08/24 at 01:56:14
When you have a chance can you give some insight into how you came up with and built the binary sequence diffusor? That seems like a critical component when treating a small room.

Sure, that is coming up next. And yes, you are absolutely correct!


When you can divulge the audio equipment you use in your room please do. What you used 4 years ago and what you're using now. Looking forward to also hearing your impressions and journey of those speakers you built. They look very interesting. [highlight][/highlight]

I will surely do that in due time. As for the speakers, I will be focusing on these designs an how they perform quite extensively. I appreciate your positive comment regarding them.

The engineer side of my brain marvels at this feat and wants to understand it all (acoustically and otherwise) but the other side of my brain just wants to sit in that room and experience and enjoy it, not caring what the hell the engineering side thinks...

We always want to jump straight to the reward! And hey, you just may get that chance one day. Or I may just help you create the same room at your house. Of course my speakers won't be there. These are one of a kind. I am the only person in the world who has a set.

[smiley=cool.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/08/24 at 02:35:03
Of course I will be going in-depth on the principle of design factors within the basis for a binary diffuser/absorber. Yes, out of all the enhancements that I have ever introduced into an audio room concerning frequency tailoring through diffusion, I can easily say without reservation that this concept gives a far greater return on investment than any other "quadratic" system that I have used in a medium to small room. Now as far as large spaces go (3500 cu feet ), and larger, I would begin the  optimal choice of prime number quadratic diffusers. A room smaller than this proves to be advantageous by using the binary methods. The smaller the room, the more this becomes fact. And that is quite the standard to compare against. I have built many large scale custom prime number sequence quadratic diffusers based upon Schroeder's concepts which were refined by RPG when they were still around with D'Antonio being the lead designer.  Dr. Peter D'Antonio is a diffraction physicist, who lead the way for the sound diffusion industry at RPG. Everything that I learned about acoustics derived from the work of Dr. D'Antonio and Trevor Cox who is a Professor of Acoustic Engineering at the University of Salford.

The real core of acoustic engineering goes back to Manfred Schroeder, a famous German physicist who contributed greatly to the world of acoustic engineering and number theory relating to this complex science. Much of what you read within the Master Handbook Of Acoustics is based upon Schroeder's work. The very core of what my binary and ternary diffuser concepts stem from derives from the actual retail models developed at RPG by Dr. D'Antonio as the primary physicist. These huge panels are well known for what they do for acoustics in a music room and are very respected as such. What is really needed is the base model showing the starting number sequence as refined by extremely complex computer programs specializing in number theory.  That complex sequence is a highly refined code which forms the basis of the large scale EXPO panels.  This design goes way beyond the simplicity of the original BAD panel, being far more advanced. If you notice, there are so many small so called acoustic companies which are merely cloning these designs and selling them as their own products. So much for patent protection! I wonder how many of these copycat sellers are paying  the actual inventors of these concepts which should be getting royalties out of their work. Perhaps they are, but I really doubt it.  I am thinking that most of these small companies in reality, most likely do not even understand the actual design theory that went into this complex engineering. You can't put anything out these days without someone copying the design, and making money from it. At least I keep this design for educational and personal use only. I have never tried to mass produce this technology, or even make a single dime from it. That would be wrong to do so and I respect the intellectual property that belongs to the designer  who patented it.  I could share the technology revealing the design pattern, along with variations for which to expand and build even greater models that actually work. But that is the extent of that sharing.  This information is widely available on the internet, so I am not revealing anything that has not been already revealed by the contents of the patent to the public.

One more thing that I have noticed about these sellers on the internet, I don't see them producing and selling copycat cloned models based upon Ternary and Quaternary number theory. I am sure that if there were an abundance of design blueprints available for them to copy, those models too would be replicated and sold wide-scale.  So far as I can tell, this is mainly being done with the binary systems, but give it time, the next generation will follow. I was experimenting with binary panels long before these "fly by night" companies began selling them online. When I had my YouTube channel for acoustics, I had thousands upon thousands of hits for videos based upon the design and build of these units. They would not support my channel as subscribers, just too lazy to even click a button for free material! However, I gave away a goldmine of information that never gave me a return on my investment. I absolutely despise that whole YouTube concept. They have become so greedy and controlling of the studio contributors that it is senseless to keep allowing them to profit from our hard work while we get nothing back from it. Very few contributors actually make a good living based upon YouTube profits. It takes a huge degree of subscribers and viewing hours to qualify for compensation. In the mean time, YouTube plasters garbage advertisements all over the video which really distracts from the content. I quickly had enough of that unfair practice. I soon pulled the plug on that scam operation and removed all of my videos from public viewing.

I actually had some guy with the nerve to ask me if I could tell him a certain measurement for building the EXPO panel clone. This was after I removed the video from public eye. He actually stated that he needed this to put these plans into mass scale production of the work I provided.  How much do you think I was going to profit from that!  Needless to say, he never got what he was seeking. I made it very clear in my videos that these designs were legally patented, and were not allowed for reproduction in a profitable way without the consent of the designer. As you may surmise, nobody seems to care about that, and I know the Chinese manufacturers are not concerned with this. Unless the designer is willing to take these people to court, then they simply get away with it.

On a good note, I received compliments from many who actually built this design as I instructed, and it was obvious the level of interest involved within this design. I had a response from one guy who had built the binary modules as I instructed. He was very excited about what he gained from this concept and stated that he never thought it could be possible for something like this to make such a huge difference in overall music perception. According to him, he had tried many variations of diffusers and absorbers within his room prior to trying my models.

I forget the exact quote, but he stated something along the lines of "whoever is responsible for this design is an absolute genius! The ambience and spatial properties of this room have unfolded ten times over, revealing things within the music I never knew existed."  

Well, what can one say to that?  At least this guy took the time to let me know how these improved his audio room.  He was specifically referring to the suspended full scale modules which covered his ceiling the same way mine is done. Just suspending them from the ceiling alone made that much of a difference.  He informed me that there were to be many more modules built and installed along his entire room.  So you see, there is hope for a small room with this concept. It works, and many have proved it.


When you realize what one of these panels are worth retail, you quickly see why it is advantageous to construct your own. Once the pattern is established, it is best to let a CNC shop produce these quickly and with great accuracy. These need to be constructed out of high mass material with substantial thickness. I would never use anything less than 1/2 inch plywood or MDF. It is also about the type of acoustic material which layers behind this panel which signifies it's acoustic signature. This design works by an even balance of diffusion and absorption. If the absorptive factors fail to perform correctly, then the entire module fails to reach it's potential. The design parameters are extremely critical, with a level of deviation not allowable if guidelines are not held within strict tolerance.

What I did to make my EXPO based panels unique, and still adhere to the strict code within the number sequence, was to employ a variation of inversion and rotation tactics with the base sequence. I continued to expand this concept until the dimensions of my panel were filled. If you look at the pattern closely, you can see just how uniform the spread of this sequence becomes while maintaining a constant degree of variations with strict adherence to the primary number sequence. This expansion can go on infinitely as long as the proper implementation of rotation and inversion is adhered to.

I will be going in depth about the construction of these binary difuser/absorber modules which are 4 ft x 8 ft panel size. That will come once I get into the diffusion tactics of my audio room build.  As a bonus, you may even learn what a Ternary diffuser is and how to build one!

[smiley=wink.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 06/08/24 at 06:21:11
red pill,

Thanks for sharing that interesting back story. Put in context like that it certainly cements the reasons why you're so dedicated once you make the decision to follow through with something. The dream of being a pilot is a very cool part of your life story.

I have to say that you kind of blew my mind a little with those thoughts. It brought back a ton of memories as I realized there were a few similarities and parallels at that time in my life as well.

If I may, I'll elaborate a little.

I enlisted in the USAF in the late seventies to serve and to better myself, hoping to learn a skill. That skill was supposed to be heavy construction equipment operator. When the orders came down after basic training, I was told that I'd be trained as a weapons systems specialist on jet aircraft instead. I fought it but to no avail and went with the new training program. My assignment was to load armament on T-38 aircraft which you probably know are training aircraft for new pilots at the time. I didn't know what to expect exactly but once on the flight line I found myself really enjoying being around the aircraft. The responsibilities included loading the armament, arming before takeoff, de-arming after the mission and the most fun was being in the cockpit to set switches/dials so my crew chief could take measurements from under the plane. Nothing like a pilot but I thought it was cool none the less. I feel bad your eyesight prevented you from fulfilling your dream of becoming a pilot. Like you I was drawn to the aircraft in some way though.

I was also into music and stereo equipment then and like you, found myself with a bunch of equipment in my dorm room. Among them a Kenwood KR-9700 integrated and Sansui reel to reel. Getting the system to sound good in there was futile but we enjoyed the music anyway. The fact that you were able to get that small room to sound awesome is a testament to your knowledge of acoustics at the time (and knowing good audio equipment when you saw it!)

Ok, so now I'm thinking, huh cool, a couple of parallel kind of things that happened and then you hit me with the Pink Floyd stuff. I loved all kinds of music at that point, but I was a big Pink Floyd fan with Wish You Were Here being my favorite. Again, I'm thinking man, this is wild. I know all the songs you're talking about but after hearing your description of the sound you were getting I could only hope to hear them that way. Maybe in the future if I'm lucky. Another tidbit is I'll be seeing Alan Parsons in Nashville at the Ryman later this year. Always great sound there and looking forward to it.

Anyway, sorry to ramble but it brought back some cool memories and reactions and just wanted to relate.

Keep the amazing audio journey coming.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 06/08/24 at 06:40:03
Evidently my previous post never got 'posted' earlier when I wrote it. Must not have hit 'post' hard enough I guess ... lol... that was in response to your post #73.

Re-reading your latest post now.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 06/08/24 at 12:17:01
Oh RPS, I've been paying attention. I too have many parallels with your journey. Just, this time of the year I turn into a butterfly. So, keep it coming!
;)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Gilf on 06/08/24 at 18:27:26
Speaking of DSOTM, I recall hearing that album for the first time on a truly hifi system. That introduction heartbeat begins in the systole phase and emerges from the front center, passes through your body, and hits the back wall, and diastole phase returns from the back wall through your body again and returns to the front center, at which point the reverb washes both left and right all around you until the next beat. It is truly a reference for room treatment, imaging, and room pressurization.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 06/09/24 at 23:46:08
Thanks for elaborating on the binary diffuser. It seems like your unique take on it as well as your inversion and rotation approach are what make it scalable. Can these be made into smaller modules and abutted, or would the border abutments mess up the sequence?  Just wondering since smaller units may be easier to install and manipulate in some cases.

The units in the picture look nice. Would they be considered the 1D variety. Do you have any thoughts on 1D vs. 2D? (are 1D better in this application for instance)

Kind of disheartening to see how YouTube treats their content creators and even worse are how people will try to take advantage of the creator's hard work for their own benefit. Sorry to see you weren't able to continue to share your ingenuity on that platform.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/10/24 at 03:19:26
That introduction heartbeat begins in the systole phase and emerges from the front center, passes through your body, and hits the back wall, and diastole phase returns from the back wall through your body again and returns to the front center, at which point the reverb washes both left and right all around you until the next beat.

Now we are on the same sheet of music playing in harmony.  This is exactly what I am referring to. You get what I am trying to achieve. I need to bring out those effects the way the engineer created it for me to experience. When I listened to this album many years ago with the sonic holographic circuit engaged, and the speakers almost completely together with a panel in between them to act as a barrier centered directly in front of me (the experiment to eliminate cross talk), there were a few more things of interest that came out of this set up.

As the man in that segment is running from whatever is chasing him, the sound stage has him coming around from a far distance on one side, then swing around wide to the other side, running in a circle behind me, back to the other side until he fades away in the distance. The sound chasing him then passes over and behind me  with a very realistic sense of passing overhead. Then it is heard crashing in the background behind me as if it were a mile away.

From that point on, I knew this was an audiophile reference soundtrack to gauge the worth of a sound system. Anything that can accurately produce these effects is the exact thing that spells 100 % success for me. If a system and room fails to produce what is on this album as I know it should be, then this audio room is simply not up to the standard I desire.  Now that we understand each other as to what my goals and expectations are with my current room, it is much easier to convey what I am doing this all for, and what I hope to achieve.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/10/24 at 05:35:09
mrchipster,

I think the story that you told about your time in the service was yet another interesting situation about how things really never go as intended, but yet seem to work out with a bright side to the end result.  I can relate to how the USAF did that to you. If you did not have a guarantee in writing for the exact career choice you expressed, they would just place you wherever they needed to fill an open spot. They have you under their control now and you are stuck with it until it is time to separate. If not satisfied with the current AFSC at the time of reenlistment, it is time to get out if they won't offer what you want.  It is always what they need, they really are not concerned about our needs as long as we are government property.

Anyway, I see that you as well should be given thanks for your service to our country. As a fellow veteran, I salute you for your respectable contribution to our country's security and freedom. There is one very important fact that all must remember being an American legal citizen, FREEDOM ISN'T FREE!  Those that serve or have served live by that motto and hold the highest regards towards it.

That is definitely a disappointment wanting to learn a trade such as heavy equipment operator which is very useful in the civilian sector, but instead having to accept something totally different than what you desired. When it comes to armament systems, that is a very narrow field for which to make a career as a civilian. Not impossible, but difficult.  That is really a shame you did not get what you went in for in the first place, but you still performed very respectable duties which are very important in the world of combat warfare. Without you guys, the aircraft can't perform the task they need to execute. So your time was in no way wasted. I know it was not what was best for you, but just know that you made a great sacrifice to keep our American way in check.

Yes, I as well find it interesting that a few of us here have very similar situations, and parallel experiences in life. It can really be a very small world when we actually discover what we have shared in the past.  This makes it very easy to relate to what each of us tells in our life story.

My assignment was to load armament on T-38 aircraft which you probably know are training aircraft for new pilots at the time.

Did you mean the F-5, which is the fighter version of the T-38 Talon?  I just don't recall the T-38 with weapon systems on them, but I do realize some were outfitted with weapons for advanced training. As far as I knew, they were strictly the advanced trainer after the T-37, for new pilots as you stated. Just wondering where they used these for training.


I was very fortunate to have been at Pink Floyd concerts in Minneapolis, MN., and Clemson University, SC. (outdoors), as well as The R. Waters solo tours after he left Floyd. Once in Austin TX, once in Kansas City, MO., and once in Phoenix AZ.

BTW: David Gilmour has a new solo album being released this fall.  Pre-orders are being taken for that album now.  I still consider him as my favorite guitarist and vocalist.  He may have been a replacement for Syd Barrett, but in my opinion, without Gilmour, I just don't see the great success that Floyd turned out to be. ( By The Way, which one is pink?) Riding the gravy train.   8-)

The sound direction would have been totally different if Barret and Waters remained as the main influence of that group. Just so many great works of artistic talent that Gilmour was responsible for. And the style of his guitar playing  is just mesmerizing, and something easily recognized as his playing style.

He will be playing live this year with three shows in LA (Hollywood Bowl), and five shows at Madison Square Garden, NY. As you can imagine, these venues are selling out fast.  Not bad for an old guy huh!  He will be appreciated far into the future.  A true example of a REAL musician and vocalist for which time has no boundaries!

I will say this, being a huge Pink Floyd fan during the 70's and beyond is one of the great motivators for wanting a great sound system.  It is not difficult to understand why. I also was into Alan Parsons, my favorites were, I Robot, Turn Of A Friendly Card, and the first album with the Edgar Alan Poe stories.  Supertramp was another great motivator for wanting a great system. Classics like Crime Of The Century, Even In The Quietest Moments, Breakfast In America, and Brother Where You Bound, are all sensational audiophile titles that really warrant a great sound system. I never get tired of these titles. I saw Supertramp live in Austin, TX back in the late 80's. They played  at a lower level of db than what I would have liked, but they were still great to see perform live.

I know that previous tours of the Alan Parson's Project have used alternate musicians throughout the years. Some better than others. But with Alan Parsons leading the way, it is sure to be a great concert. That is one I would like to see.  I did see a few of these events on YouTube, but not actually live in person. I passed through Nashville last October when we went to Florida on vacation. That trip didn't seem to take very long getting there from Ohio. After all, I am close to the Kentucky line as well as Indiana. Never been to the Ryman, but it sounds like a great place for concerts. I hope the show is a great one!


Oh, and as far as your wish to someday hear these albums the way that a great acoustic setting will allow, I think I can help you obtain that. You have the equipment, you have the room. All you need to do now is tailor it to your liking.  ( I know, not exactly a quick and easy undertaking). I do know this, I can tell that you want this. That is the great motivator in any endeavor....desire and passion.  I know it will happen for you.

Thanks for elaborating on the binary diffuser. It seems like your unique take on it as well as your inversion and rotation approach are what make it scalable. Can these be made into smaller modules and abutted, or would the border abutments mess up the sequence?  Just wondering since smaller units may be easier to install and manipulate in some cases.

The units in the picture look nice. Would they be considered the 1D variety. Do you have any thoughts on 1D vs. 2D? (are 1D better in this application for instance)


Sure, I will elaborate on this.  I do have to go for tonight.  I plan to continue where I left off here and answer the above for you hopefully tomorrow.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 06/10/24 at 19:45:20
Gilf,

I've heard that tune many times and always thought it sounded good. But your description made me realize what it should actually sound like. Red pill is trying to get us closer to that realization.
Fantastic description of that sound sequence.

As close as headphones can come to conveying the music/space/realism, being able to be surrounded by it in a physical room in space is where it's at for me.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 06/11/24 at 00:03:25
RP,

Thank you. From one vet to another the respect means a lot. Actually, I find that respect is a key component of this forum and one reason I joined. People are very willing to hear one another out and be very respectful of differing opinions on audio and otherwise. Sure, there will always be some contention at some point, but folks always seem to push past it.

You're right about things working out even though one may not think so at the time. The skill I joined the USAF for never came to fruition, but the alternative skill led to me to take my in-depth electronics training (in support of weapons systems) and continue my education in electronics and electrical engineering once I separated from the service. After college I hired on with IBM and spent 31 years there as part of a team designing integrated circuits (chips ... ah, part of my moniker) in bleeding edge technology in support of many customers.  After that I spent 10 more years doing a similar job for another company. I retired a year and a half ago and enjoying the reprieve.

The T-38 trainer I believe was an F-5 that had been modified to incorporate 2 cockpits, one front and one directly behind it. (trainee in front, instructor in aft) Interesting setup to say the least. These were flown out of Holloman AFB in NM. The sorties would take them to White Sands Missile Range where they would train and test their skills. There were F-15's at the base as well and had I re-enlisted I probably would have progressed to those aircraft. Realizing I couldn't load bombs on 747's once I got out (lol) I decided not to re-enlist and the rest is history. (The Air Force gave the T-38 a nickname: The Mouse that Roared .. fwiw)

Nice to hear you've seen so many great shows live. I would have liked to see more at the time as well, but money and time were not on my side. I did get to see 2 Pink Floyd shows in the late eighties, one at MSG and one at Giants Stadium. Needless to say, it was the highlight of the concert going experience at the time, although seeing Chick Corea in NYC at an outdoor festival around the same time was pretty high up there as well. Now I relish going to small venues and taking in shows with smaller crowds but great acoustics. Lovin' it!

Thanks for helping us get closer to the music.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/11/24 at 17:26:38
After college I hired on with IBM and spent 31 years there as part of a team designing integrated circuits

So I see that things really did work out for you.  I can't imagine a better success story than that for someone getting back on the track they desire.  Congrats on that!

I now see what you were talking about concerning the modified F-5 trainer.  That makes much more sense to me. Now as far as a Boeing 747 modified with weapons systems...hmmm, do you think the AF ever considered that? Hey, a cheaper alternative to the B1-B  bomber!   :o ;D ;D ;D

My final duty station was Grand Forks, ND after returning from Iceland. Strategic Air Command finally got their claws into me and would not let go.  Because of my rank and skill level at the time, I was prime for the brand new B1-B's replacing the old B-52's. Because of the $billion price tag on each bomber, they wanted only people that were best qualified to work on that aircraft. They required a minimum rank of Master Sergeant just to be a lead crew chief. Usually, the assistant crew leader was a Technical Sergeant or higher. I also had to pass a very high level security clearance to be accepted.  We had continually changing security pass-codes that had to be learned each week. If you did not give the proper response, A lesson about paying attention quickly unraveled as a  reminder of how important this is. The security police would quickly get you on the ground under arrest. They had no problem putting a bullet in your head if you gave them a reason to.  They did not play games here. Live nukes loaded on the ready line aircraft were a very serious thing, and they don't take chances.  Nothing like the feeling of several cold rifle barrels at the back of your neck if you screw up! Luckily, I never screwed up. It made a person quite tense, and a bit nervous to go through that gate.

Let me tell you, living in that baron desolate place made Iceland look like the Bahamas by comparison. We always claimed how many winters we survived there as opposed to years. Those winter's were brutal and long!  I was locked in to this program permanently and was told it would be until I retire. Another 10 years in that hell hole was not in my future, so I knew I had to terminate and get out of there as soon as I could.  Because I was now part of a very sensitive nuclear strike force with the sole purpose of counter striking the Soviet Union during the cold war, this location would have been permanent.

You would have had a fun time loading those nukes into the huge dispensers in the bomb bays.  Those pilots knew they were on a one way mission if ever on the way to deliver a nuclear payload.  After all, what was there to come back to?  And of course there is that flight capacity with limited fuel on the return. Without being greeted by a KC-135 (airborne fuel station) to top off, that would have been impossible. The cockpits had heavy lead-lined curtains and protective enhancements to help shield the initial blast of the nukes  after delivery. I can assure you, mutual destruction would have been met ten fold.  That is the very sense of logical reasoning that kept us out of a nuclear war.  Peace through mutual power.

Most civilians have NO idea how many times that threat came close to reality.

So anyway, back to the future.  I have to get off of that track, and focus upon the reason for being here now..that is acoustics.  We could chat about that past all day, but that derails the main content. We could really conjure up some memories dealing with that era.

One more thing concerning concerts. I had experienced a great deal of them in the 70's and 80's, but I tell you this, nothing compared to the live Pink Floyd shows, as these completely stood out from the rest. Only someone who has actually experienced these shows realizes what I am talking about. If you were a fan of their music, then you HAD to see them live to get the total experience. I will never forget those times. They are as vivid as the night they happened.  Just look at the grand scale which Roger Waters put on a special concert event at the Berlin Wall location celebrating its tear down.  That was the most incredible event one could imagine. The expertise, the cost, and the work that went into making that event happen was quite the challenge. Waters did not fail to relive "The Wall" tours during that night, and at a much larger scale. Seeing it on DVD is one thing, but being there brings a whole new dimension to it.

Now THAT was an example of GREAT acoustics!         8-)


 As for small clubs, there is something to be said about that intimate type of atmosphere.  When I lived in Austin, TX., going down to Sixth Street on the weekends was very special. You could just jump from one club to another to see various comedy routines or to see many up and coming musicians, or already popular musicians playing in these small clubs.  This reminds me of my time on the Florida Gulf Coast where I spent some good times partying on the beach. It was common for major groups such as 38 Special, Foreigner, etc... to play at the beach clubs during the early 90's. Such great times! Things were so much better then.  And did I mention Stevie Ray Vaughn, Robin Trower and the likes? Yes, they were a big part of that time. I still remember hearing the news live detailing the loss of SRV when Eric Clapton's helicopter went down. Eric was not aboard, but Stevie was unfortunately.  That was the end of a VERY promising musician. He was heading into superstardom at supersonic speed. I loved his style of playing. He was truly a naturally talented guitar player who inspired so many to follow. I can imagine SRV and Hendrix playing together as the great gig in the sky!  One day, "slowhand" Eric will reunite with them and play into eternity.

And in memory of two greats who will never be matched for what they accomplished, we shall not forget Eddie Van Halen and Neil Peart for what these legends contributed to the world of music.  Seeing Neil play drums is mind boggling. I saw him play several times. All I can say is that Rush was very lucky to have had him as a drummer. As for Eddie, he was a rock legend, what more needs to be said. And to the final departure of the original Lynyrd Skynyrd, you guys did it the right way, playing the likes of "Freebird" into eternity. It was a bit sad to see Gary Rossington being the last member to finally pass on. So much success, so much tragic! Sometimes the price is just a bit too high.

I just may request "freebird" be played at my funeral to send me on the great journey into the unknown.  "TURN IT UP"    

;)

Now, it is time to get a bit closer to the music within our control. Please stay tuned, there is much more to follow.

[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/12/24 at 02:37:53
Okay, back to the room.

Shown here is the airtight closet door which I custom made the same way that I built the main entry door. Thick and solid. It is only hung on the hinges at this point. I still have to install the inner jam framework for the seals.





I mentioned that this speaker array system is installed using a "floating" cradle.  I know that is a difficult thing to imagine, so here is the shell around for which the assembly fits snugly without any fasteners what-so-ever to hold it in place.  The only thing between what you see here and the array assembly which fits into this space, is a layer of non hardening acoustic sealant which remains very flexible, acting like a shock absorber. This step shows a lining of Quiet Walk floor underlay.  You see the bottom piece of 3/4 inch MDF which gets fit into place using only sealant to secure it. This MDF framework goes completely around this opening to become the outer section of the cradle.





Back in the main room looking forward at the baffle wall, you see the empty spaces which will become midrange diaphragmatic sound absorbers. I just installed the first layer of 1/2 inch OSB on the backside which becomes the backing plate for the absorber modules. Remember that I always apply strips of felt to the framework before attaching to the wall. This provides a vibration buffer between the wood sections. Also note that the 3/4 inch MDF framework is installed within each of these spaces. This provides a supportive edge for which the steel panels are mounted.




Now you see the solid MDF panels being test fitted within the speaker array spaces. There are four of these custom fit for each opening. These are sandwiched together with glue during installation. This of course after the extensive machining that must be done to house the driver array.



Here is a wide view showing that entire assembly before I pull the blank panels back out for machining.




What you see here is the opening to the attic space above the audio room. Nothing but insulation and air between the ceiling and the rafters.



And here is the view of the custom airtight hatch which I built to access the attic.



Shown with the hatch lowered.




A wide view of the closet space showing the detail of the finished doorway jam and seals for the door.




Another view of the cradle lining from the front section of the baffle wall.





In process of fitting the drivers after machining the array plates.













It is now time to sand and apply a finish on the front face prior to fitting these array modules into the baffle wall.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 06/12/24 at 21:11:21
Totally agree with you when it comes to live shows, especially Pink Floyd. I was lucky to see them twice. I'll never forget those live performances, for many reasons.

If I need to go to a larger venue (civic center, etc.) to see a band I really, really like I will, but so far I have been seeking out the smaller venues, mainly for the reasons we're discussing here: Acoustics!
Living here on the southwest Florida coast not too far from Tampa and St. Pete there are many options.
I get to see great bands in theater-like settings, where the music and acoustics are paramount to me. Just like you're showing us here, the room can potentially make or break a great performance.

Nice pics from your latest post. Really starting to come together and it really gives us a sense of how much work and effort went into this. Not that I couldn't tell from the beginning but man o' man this is all out.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/18/24 at 01:10:48
I get to see great bands in theater-like settings, where the music and acoustics are paramount to me. Just like you're showing us here, the room can potentially make or break a great performance.

You know that you are on the highest plain of discovery once you come to realize this very thing. The journey really does come together here in full form. This is the point where you don't have to think about whether or not you have made it, it just becomes clear without question.

Really starting to come together and it really gives us a sense of how much work and effort went into this. Not that I couldn't tell from the beginning but man o' man this is all out.

May I suggest that you get a cold drink and sit in your easy chair. And don't forget to buckle your seat belt. We are just getting started and if you like what you have seen so far, things are really going to get your attention soon enough as time progresses. I have all of this data waiting, but why rush, we have plenty of time to go over this room transformation.  I think you will really be interested in part II of this story. That is my favorite part.  This whole thing has been a lesson within a very in-depth experiment. I discovered what I needed to explore, and now I am completely satisfied with my final development.  Just a teaser, I will cover that when the time comes.

And as a reminder, I said earlier that I am planning a few more acoustic devices that I created designs for.  These are the ones that finish off the front wall and the forward side walls.  A combination of 1d binary diffusers along with large scale floor standing ternary poly designs. I think these will be the decoration that compliments the icing on the cake.  I will absolutely be reviewing the results of that addition when the time comes.  I expect to be very pleased with the results.  This was something that I always intended to do to make this room complete. I just never got around to it.  The music is sounding so good now that I am in no hurry.

I have to tell you, I have been so thrilled by what I have been experiencing in my current music room setting, that it is just too tempting to go there and listen now.  But I will get a few more pics up first.  What I am hearing within this room is beyond belief, that is if you didn't experience it first hand.

To every guy who ever said that it is impossible to make a small room sound good, that statement could not be more false! After 15 minutes in this room with a blindfold on, I will ask what you hear. I will ask you to describe the room, it's size, the system, what type of speakers are playing, etc.  I am sure there will be some very interesting answers to those questions.  And of course, that expression of confusion once the listener has a true visual perspective of the actual room for the first time.  That would be fun!  What I did to this room will completely change one's view on that misconception.  It sure made a believer out of me.

  [smiley=icqlite27.png]  

;D     ;D     ;D       [smiley=icqlite20.png]


In the future, I will be reviewing music titles and revealing my perception of them in this room as referenced by quality grade. That will range from the lower quality C list, the B list, and the best of the best studio recordings, the A list.  I will convey as much detail as I can regarding what I hear within the music, and how dynamic they are.

 It will be interesting once that I put the Zrock3 into the system and then perform these same listening sessions all over again for comparison.  I don't expect to get that until until maybe November.  It is very possible that I may order the Zen Mystery Amp with all cap mods very soon.  I am thinking that this amp sounds very special, an amp that just beckons to be part of my system.  My current amp sounds so great that it is hard to imagine getting much better.

 What I like about the Zen Mystery Amp is that the power supply is so huge and that it is completely focused upon ultra clean power and stability.  Of course providing a clean 40 watts per channel just might come in handy within my system for the dynamics that I require. This might be like upgrading to a supercharger...so yes, this is definitely on my wish list.   Seriously though, if I ever use that "supercharger", I may get into a lot of trouble. But this is what I desire...taking it to the extreme! I know that my Q-force B.C.E. speakers are up for the challenge.

So, as you can see, there is plenty to experience in the future. There will always be something to relay here regarding acoustics, the music, and how they will become the "perfect" marriage within our perception of unity.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/18/24 at 03:31:29
I have a few more pics of the framing assembly stage prior to stuffing with rock-wool and installing the wall layers.




A look at the doors installed while in rough form. You can see that everything is close tolerance with airtight design factors always being the major concern.  Remember, if air can pass through, so will sound.



A view of the second layer of rock-wool in the center divider between the closet spaces. The next step here is to install the first wall layer which is 1/2 inch OSB.






At this stage, you see the MDF framework within each wall module. These modules will become the diaphragmatic absorbers with metal face plates.



The blank speaker array panels are temporarily installed to check fit prior to taking them back out for machining.



The space for the floating speaker array within this cradle gets a layer of Quiet Walk flooring underlay as a gasket prior to installing the MDF frame.




The speaker array panel being test fitted within the floating cradle prior to machining.




This view shows the cardboard retainers installed within the modules which support the rock wool in order to maintain a proper airspace between the metal panel and the rock wool.













































































I will be back next time to show the installation of these speaker array panels within the baffle wall. Following that, the next step is to install the rock-wool and then the metal face plates.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/18/24 at 16:04:17
Installation underway now as one main array is finished and now starting the other side. These array panels have to be installed one at a time as the fit is tight and there is compression. These have to be individually glued face to face as well as the very important task of applying acoustic sealant around the perimeter of the panel edges as each piece is fitted inside of the floating cradle. Remember, there are NO mechanical fasteners. These are strictly prohibited as we don't want to provide a pathway for resonance to transfer into the baffle wall. The sealant holds this assembly in place while providing a suspension system with total isolation from the surrounding wall.






Sealant applied before assembly of the MDF frame for the lower woofer.





Full isolation with an airtight seal from the main baffle wall is provided for this woofer cradle.





Preparing to apply glue to each connecting face before sliding the next section in place. Sealant has to be applied to the rear of the back panel as it slides backwards. This insures a full encapsulation of sealant around the perimeter as it reaches it's final position to the rear. After that, sealant is spread around the circumference at the front of each panel as the next section is installed.  There are four of these panels which need to be glued up and sealed. Once all panels are in position, clamps must be applied to insure proper adherence without gaps or leaks. You never want a source of resonance to find it's way between these panels, or any other path if possible. This is followed up by sealing the joints around the baffle cradles, both on the front wall and at the rear sections.





Preparing to install the MDF framework within this section.





You can see the benefit of this design concept concerning the total isolation of each driver array from each side.  This prevents the rear waves from merging together as if they are a mono set. Each driver pressurizes it's own dedicated space without interference from one side to the other. That center divider is a split design using a dual leaf technique to stop sound penetration by mechanical means. Not completely resistive, but with a far greater reduction of that problem.  That airspace behind each baffle array is like a giant speaker enclosure designed as a sealed unit. If I wanted it to become more like a larger space as in a open baffle, I simply open the hatch in the left closet side to the attic, and open the doors to the other closet space from the adjoining room.  As you can see, I sort of incorporated an alternative approach for testing the feasibility of this full scale baffle wall.  After all, this concept is not proven. It is simply based upon what we know about acoustics and speaker design as they work together for decent sound production while eliminating many of the problems associated with speaker placement within a room.

The day that I sat in front of this bare wall before anything was started, this exact thing you see before you was instantly developed within my vision as it made perfect sense to me that this was worthwhile testing. Did anything worthwhile ever get invented without failure and disappointment?  I don't think so.  So hey, I am fully prepared to be disappointed with the results. But guess what, one never knows until effort is applied and things are actually experimented with.  This is my giant experiment. Now I can say that I have the experience to know what this design is all about and to just how effective it actually is.  Talk is cheap, walking the walk is expensive and labor intensive. It is time to go to school here, class is in session.












All clamped up and viewed from the rear, inside of the closet space.














These baffle array's are ready for driver installation.










Next, I begin installing the Rock-wool into the chambered spaces before installing the metal face plates for the diaphragmatic absorbers.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/20/24 at 16:09:41
RockWool has the ideal density and absorption rating for this particular requirement. It is easy to work with, cuts cleanly, and is much safer for exposure than using pink fiberglass. I still suggest wearing a face mask and gloves when handling.





Review this chart and you can compare the airflow resistivity of RockWool, and fiberglass insulation. As you can see, there is a substantial difference in airflow resistivity between the two.  Fiberglass has its place in certain applications, but here, the Roxul is favored for better absorption and resistance overall.






Now it is just a simple task of inserting the Roxul behind the support straps to hold it in place.




























You will notice that I have set the distance of the Roxul backward enough to allow a degree of airspace between the insulation and the metal face plate. This is absolutely critical for the effectiveness of the diaphragmatic action to function properly. The thicker the insulation ( along with the properties of the insulation used), along with the degree of airspace, actually determines the level of absorption and airflow resistivity attained in the end result.  This particular application is very useful for midrange to lower midrange absorption. Unfortunately, this is not deep enough to absorb energy within the low frequency registers.  That task is left up to the huge bass absorbers which are built for that purpose.





Take a look at the detail and you will notice that there must be a provision for the sheet metal face plate to be attached and still maintain a flush setting within the baffle wall. The goal is to have the metal face and the surrounding wall be seamless after the finish is applied.  The metal gets attached to the MDF frame using only sealant as an adhesive. If these panels leak air around the perimeter, the diaphragmatic action will fail. This unit acts like a spring, slowing down the energy passing through it, while absorbing much of this by heat and dissipation.





The effectiveness of this wall assembly is very beneficial in it's ability to slow down energy hitting it from the return bounce of the room itself. The reflections are reduced in amplitude as the sound waves hit the metal plates of the diaphragmatic absorber modules which are working at different levels of sound reduction by the size of each unit. The return rate of energy back into the room is greatly retarded in size and speed. That difference in time and space is the very thing that helps to create a more spacious and less restrictive room. The end goal of any audio room is to (remove the boundaries of the room to the point where the room itself is no longer a noticeable part of the equation).  This is how we make a small room sound like a much larger space while maintaining a live and natural purity to its final form.































It is necessary to install additional support straps with the larger sections of Roxul to keep it securely in place. We absolutely do NOT want this insulation to become relaxed and bow in the center. If that happens, it leans against the metal face-plate and thus resulting in failure of the unit to be effective. Heavy duty cardboard works great and it is free.  I used a heavy duty stapler to attach them to the MDF.










This full scale baffle wall is now ready for the metal face-plates to be installed.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/20/24 at 20:21:13










By using a small guide made from the actual sheetmetal that goes into these spaces, I can easily check the clearance for the MDF frames before they are secured in place. This assures that the sheetmetal will fit perfectly flush when installed with sealant. The added tape to the depth tool compensates for the addition of sealant behind the panel.



Doing a dry fitting check before applying the sealant for final installation.









This is how it should look once installed with the sealant to hold it in place. It should be flush and close fitting at the edges.












Painter's tape around the perimeter is all that it takes to hold the panels in place for 24 hours while the acoustic sealant sets up and takes permanent hold of the metal face plate. The tape easily peels off without residue or damage to the paint.


















After 24 hours, the final step is to smooth over all voids and panel edges with acoustic sealant and allow to set up completely before going on to the finish work and paint.


Once the finish work is done, the drivers can be installed.  I will wait on that until the room is finished remodeling to prevent any damage to the drivers..







I am showing you an advanced view of the speaker array baffle wall as it looks after the finish work and paint. At this point, the room was very close to operational status.  It will be awhile before I catch up to this level of progress.




I told you that the walls in this room will deceive you. Those are definitely not standard drywall construction!



[smiley=tunes57.gif]  

[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/21/24 at 22:01:22
Stepping backwards a bit in time, I will now move on to the side wall facing the outside of the house. The two major things I have to deal with here are the power receptacles, and the windows. Both of these are huge source points for noise to travel through both in and out.

Glass is absolutely the worst type of surface for a music room. That glare MUST be completely eliminated. Sound must be reduced from coming through these windows as much as possible. If the room is to have a quiet noise floor, all external noise must be blocked. And of course, I have the other part of the HVAC system to control, the air return register. Other than that, these remaining two corner walls are basic to remodel. At least I do not have to tear them down and rebuild from scratch. These external walls are brick on the outside.

My intent is to simply place a buffering layer between the existing drywall, and a second piece of 5/8 type X drywall over that for extra sound deadening.






Since I bought a surplus load of 4 x 8 sheets of Coroplast at a ridiculously low price of $2.00 per sheet ( I think these are normally around $35 - $40 per sheet), I used them for a buffering layer between the drywall. This creates a air pocket between the drywall layers which in turn helps to reduce sound transmission passing through the wall. Along with a generous application of acoustic sealant around all seams and joints, this will make a difference. When I saw these sheets stacked in the back of the warehouse, I immediately saw this use for them and bought a bunch of them.  At that price, one can't go wrong. I also bought ten sheets of dual side painted 10 feet by 4 feet sheet metal ( the same I used for the face plates on the diaphragmatic absorbers and the corner poly's) for a super low price of $10.00 per sheet as opposed to $100.00 per sheet at wholesale price! It comes in handy for projects when I have access to surplus material like this locally. Too bad they closed and sold the inventory to another company. I bought a lot of new hardware from there for future projects at extremely low bargain prices.

Same thing when I bought the sheets of OSB. They were standard at $8.00 per sheet when I built this room. I bought all of this material pre-corona days. If you recall, any roofer knows what happened to the inflated cost of OSB sheathing during that epidemic. We saw the price of these sheets go all the way up to $65.00 per sheet and more!  This is an example as to why the cost of roofing a house skyrocketed.  When I replaced the main roof section on my house last year for the double story roof, I required around 48 sheets of 1/2 inch OSB sheathing, the same that went on my walls. The cost had gone down, but not far enough. I still paid around $22.00 per sheet x 48 sheets = $1056.00 just for sheathing alone! I did the roofing by myself along with extensive masonry work on the six foot wide chimney.

I purchased another load of OSB this last winter at a much lower price. It actually went down to $13.00 per sheet so I immediately seized upon that discount and bought what I need to rebuild the other roof section. Another 42 sheets.  That was a big savings!  Now what am I going to do with all the money I saved restoring this roof?   Buy another amplifier of course. Having a new roof AND a new ZMA is a big bonus in my book.  And I would still have about ten grand left over.  It pays to do your own work if you have the time and ability to do so.

:D

With no labor cost involved ( I work for myself), the cost of this house section alone for a new roof was astronomical at today's material cost.  What I did would have cost me at least $25000.00 if I had paid a roofing company to do what I did.  I do not trust any of these guys to perform the quality standard which I insured. I built this roof to withstand wind gusts of 150 MPH and to last 30 years.  That type of quality construction comes at a very high cost.  A very beautiful roof and not one single leak!  I used all premium materials and went beyond code requirements. I had to also bring the chimney up to code by modifying the roof structure with the addition of a chimney cricket. I also upgraded all of the rain gutters to prevent anymore clogging.  Now this year, I have to do the same thing with the other section of the house which is single story. A complete roof replacement and also A full addition of R30 insulation once the roof is open. My garage if FULL of roofing materials and insulation! So now that it is good and hot outside, I am going to start that project any day now. Once I do, I will be absent from this thread for some time while I do that work. I am doing this job by myself, so it will take time.  Just trying to fight these rain storms. I have plenty of huge tarps and weights to keep the roof dry during the rain delays. Not looking forward to this miserable task, but it has to be done, and I need to insure it is done to my standard.  I will be living here most likely until I pass on and I am not getting any younger. I do not want anymore roofing problems for many years to come.



Just a glimpse upon the roof I completed last October. This view overlooks the backyard from the center of the double story roof.  At this point, I was standing just past the audio room section. I certainly have to protect that room after all the work that went into it!















The sheets of Coroplast are seen installed here with the joints sealed. The drywall comes next.




The plenum for the return air register is shown here after being sealed up at the floor. I built a custom airflow box which reduces air noise and maintains proper flow into the room quietly.  Another hush box.  This box just sits over the plenum with a seal to the floor.  






Preparing the outlets for the modified enclosures which are built airtight for sound reduction through the wall. The outlet dedicated for the amplifer and digital source is shown. This is a hospital grade 20 amp design with superior grounding for the equipment.

The other outlets are standard 15 amp types which have all been replaced.















































A glimpse of what's to come involving the window modifications.













I shall return to finish these windows and get ready for the new flooring.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 06/22/24 at 17:48:18
Looking good RP!

I didn't realize that sheet metal was a good material to use in this application, shows how much I know.

It's amazing how many steps are involved even for the seemingly small things, only to then be covered up never to be seen again. I'm sure it still gives you a great sense of accomplishment though. Well done!

Great job on the roof. I helped a friend do his roof a while back and know how much work it is for two to three people, never mind doing it solo. Good luck on the remaining roof to be done.

Looking forward to the continuing story when you get a chance to come back to the thread.

Stay safe out there!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/23/24 at 16:12:21
Hey MC, (easier to just reduce) Doesn't matter about details we have not covered yet. I know that I mentioned the use of sheet metal before, but that is easy to overlook when you haven't seen the designs built yet.  But never fear, you will get that opportunity soon enough.  Sheet metal is an excellent choice for use as a diaphragmatic  absorber face plate. The thickness of the metal, along with factors such as insulation depth and density, as well as airflow resistivity, in conjunction with the allotted airspace between the metal and the insulation, are the very factors which makes the absorption rating variable.

As you can imagine, using metal in a poly-cylindrical bass absorber can be a challenge as the curve of it's shape is set within the channels which retain it.  I will go over the science of how these work when I get to the stage of building them.  But as I touched upon in past posts concerning the properties of these designs, I will just make a quick note about it's purpose.  The metal face plate is critical as the function of it's area is to vibrate when the sound waves strike against it. ( resonance)  The rate of vibration and transformation will be determined by the gauge of the metal.

To keep it basic, what happens is that energy is transformed by means of heat and dissipation as the sound penetrates the surface and slows down with a major reduction in amplitude. Of course that alters the dimension of time and space....and the rest I had covered before, and will be covered again.  You can actually feel the metal vibrate with heavy bass playing.  Every woman's dream!

[smiley=icqlite14.png]

As to all the associated steps necessary to complete this audio room, well, as they say, you get what you put into it. To the unsuspecting eye, there is much about this room that is unseen, the very thing that makes this listening environment special. But I sort of relate this to someone who has an ideal athletic body as a result of years dedicating their time and energy enduring hard workouts and strict diets to accomplish their goal which is very admirable.  You see the result, but not what actually went into that process.  The only thing that really matters is that these steps are in place, and doing what they are designed to do. I enjoy the results and all is good. I think about all of the high performance components which go into a professionally built race engine...can't see them, but we know they are doing the job.

You know, sure enough, someone will look at my room and say...."Nothing special about this room, just standard drywall and window covering".

Well, we know better now don't we!

[smiley=beer.gif]



Thanks for the compliments, I can assure you, I earned that one the hard way.  But it was very well worth it. When I do the work of two men, I simply have to improvise and develop methods which aid me in doing the task myself. So far, it has served my needs well.  And I am doing that very thing again now that the roofing continues with the other roof section. The only part that is a challenge is getting the heavy material up onto the roof. Once I have staged these materials, the rest flows without a problem.  This is not a simple shingle replacement process, that would be way too easy. I have to replace the entire roof down to the rafters, plus I have to install new insulation while the roof is open.  There is no access with the roof in place like the other section had with the attic hatch.   And of course, 95 to 100 degree direct sunshine is a lot of joy as well, but no problem, I can take it. I am getting too old for this sort of thing, but I pretend to still be 30 years of age and that gets me through it.  I think that (mind over matter) concept actually works.

;D

Anyway, my area is undergoing heavy rain off and on all day today. So it doesn't look like I will accomplish anything for today on the roof.  We are getting  much more rain this year than normal. That is not helping out.  I think it is supposed to rain again in a couple of days. Tomorrow I will be working hard to get the old shingles removed where I will be replacing the first section of sheathing, perhaps getting a few sections replaced if weather permits, then get the area covered with tarps before the rain returns.

Just thought I would get this reply in while I have the time.  I will most likely post some more today if the rain continues.  Not looking good at this time.


And of course, I shall be as safe as possible. I have too many things to do this year without injuries getting in the way.

I don't want to leave you hanging on the continuation of this audio room project. So I will find time at night and on rainy days to post here.


Stay tuned, there is much more to follow.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 06/26/24 at 12:25:43

Quote:
The metal face plate is critical as the function of it's area is to vibrate when the sound waves strike against it. ( resonance)  The rate of vibration and transformation will be determined by the gauge of the metal.


Or type of material. When I did the corner traps in the charoit there were limits of the size it could be. By changing material, 1/4 pressed wood in my case, the target frequency was obtained in the limitation.

You still got my attention RPS.   :)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/26/24 at 17:53:08
Hey JB, thanks for the reply.

Yes, you are so very correct about that.  I just mentioned the metal because that is the material I used for this project. It is good to remind others though so they know there are different options that all are unique in form and function.

That is what is interesting about the science behind room acoustics, it can be very complex, yet very simple if the right procedures are utilized as a whole.

I do want for you, and hopefully a few others to keep paying attention. Otherwise my audience will be too small, and I may just be entertaining myself. I don't want anyone calling out code 5150!


[smiley=tunes26.gif]

Speaking of mild entertainment, I shall post a few more pics for now.  Feel free to chime in if I miss something important.  Professional guys like yourself keep me alert.


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/26/24 at 19:03:13
So today is a no go for roofing. The rain has been relentless and is expected to continue through tonight.  So I shall post some more images here now while I have the time.


We left off with the window modifications. I shall pick up with that now.


Here is the backside of a window cover showing the airtight seal which goes against the full frame. Because of the size and weight of these panels, I had to do this in two sections to make them manageable.

























































That pretty much "covers" up the side window. As you can see, it is very easy and quick to remove these covers. Whether it be just needing some fresh air, or an emergency egress, this system allows for both when needed. If ever reverted back to a normal window frame, just remove the threaded posts and install regular window curtains. This window however, is far better sealed and airtight than it was before.  A great deal of external sound came through these original window frames. Now, only the loudest of sounds can be heard, but at such a reduced level, it is easy to ignore. I don't get that much noise around here anyway, so not really a problem. At night, it is really quiet around here.  Just after midnight when the Amazon fleet of 767's fly overhead to unload cargo at the airport does that noise level pick up. Even that is low enough that even normal listening levels are not hampered.


I will go over the modification detail with the front window facing the street next.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/26/24 at 21:36:16
Looking at the front window frame being installed, it is obvious how much thicker the walls are now, as the additional layer of drywall extends beyond the original window sill plate seen as an indentation along the bottom of the window. This gets covered up with the outside framing.







The blue painter's tape is used to locate the exact centers of the wall studs.







All gaps and cracks are filled with acoustic sealant. Sealant is always applied to joining framework and the wall and again at all joints after installation.













































The noise floor for this room is very black now with these window covers installed. There is an extreme calmness to this room which can be a bit erie after sitting in complete silence for a good amount of time. Something has to be really loud with low frequency rumble such as a trash truck before you actually hear anything from outside. Of course, a low flying jet or thunder are expected to be heard, but not nearly as loud as before. These are the exceptions that rarely cause any concern. I don't hear kids screaming, or annoying lawnmowers and leaf blowers constantly running.

[smiley=icqlite22.png]

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The best way to check these windows for air leaks is simple. If light penetrates anywhere around or through this window mod, then it is not airtight. That would mean a very limited degree of sound suppression as compared to being air tight.  To check, make sure the sun is bright against the window, the sun rises to this side of the house. Mid-mornings are ideal for this light source. Turn out all of the interior room lights. The room should be pitch black with the full sun shining against the window. Any stray segments of light are indications of failure.




It is time for installing the flooring now. Soon it will be time to focus upon the acoustic control devices now that the room itself is a good enough platform for which to treat properly.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/27/24 at 03:48:00
The floor is carefully examined for any remaining staples after the carpet and padding was removed.  All nails must be flush before the underlayment is laid down.  The seams are sealed, and covered with heavy duty tape.








The laminate flooring is very thick at 12 mm. Along with the Quiet Walk under-layment, this flooring provides a nice sound barrier while providing a hard reflective surface which is ideal for this room. The goal is to not over-saturate the room with carpet which is more detrimental to the sound of the room than having a reflective surface.  Carpet only destroys higher frequencies which we absolutely want to preserve. If you want to maintain a live vibrant space, this is the way to do it. The focus needs to be on the ceiling and all four walls to combat against reflections, and standing waves.

We know that standing waves are created by the buildup of nodes and anti nodes dispersed around the room. Destructive interference creates nodes, while Constructive interference is responsible for the buildup of anti-nodes. When two waves traveling in opposite directions collide, the result is anti-phase cancellation.  This is why low frequency absorption is so critical to bring this problem under control. The lower the frequency, the more difficult to control. As the frequency gets lower, so does the length of the sound wave.  These problematic waves require bass absorbers that are either extremely deep and large in size, or by means of mechanical function such as diaphragmatic units which reduce these waves with heat and dissipation.

So you see, that thin carpet is going to have absolutely zero effect upon the lower frequencies that need to be controlled. Let the massive bass absorbers do that job. Even the most massive units are limited in how much they reduce standing waves.  It should be clear by now as to why it is not a good idea to have carpet and padding on the floor.  The large reflective surface maintained by the flooring provides you with the ability to fine tune the rooms balance between the low end, and the high end of the frequency spectrum. If you lose that control, the room will simply be dead, and far from what you desire in an audio room.

This practice of balance is extremely delicate to deal with.  This is why binary diffusion/absorption principles work so very well within a room this size. It is really a 50/50 balancing act that keeps things in perspective. Unless you have at least ten feet between you and a quadratic diffuser, this type of diffusion is not a good choice compared to the binary and ternary alternatives. They work with distances as short as three feet from the listening position. Now you see why they are the ultimate choice for a small room. Once you listen in a room treated this way, you will quickly understand once it is experienced.

There needs to be huge amounts of absorption within the room to counter and balance this effect. The trick is to provide this degree of absorption without creating a dead environment. There already exists the possibility of using so much absorption that the end result creates a dead room which is as bad as an overly reverberate room. There has to be a certain degree of reflective surface to keep things in check. Unless the absorptive material has the ability to slow down low frequencies, it is best left out of the room.

Perhaps it's use for random spot treatment might be desirable, but then again, maybe not at all necessary. Use the floor to walk on, and take care of everything else with corrective measures. What you do to the ceiling and walls are what matters the most.

I'm telling you from firsthand experience. I can assure you that this is a good rule to go by, one that won't disappoint you. The end results I am getting with this room are far better than what anyone would imagine for a room this size. Your ears are very good detectors of this fact. I am extremely satisfied with the acoustic signature of this room, leaving nothing in question.  This of course is the same room that before any modifications were done, was a space that was unbearable to use as a music room.  This room was horrible before I transformed it. Everything sounded bad and I could not listen to music in here. Now, that is completely the opposite situation.





































This is a floating floor which has no mechanical fasteners what so ever. This is why this type of flooring requires a minimal space around the perimeter to compensate for movement.












This is the modified air return intake for the room. This leads through a hush box hidden between the dual leaf walls and sealed to the floor where the original intake was located.



















It is time to start building the acoustic control devices for this room. I shall start with the ceiling.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 06/28/24 at 10:41:54
I like your solution for sound window treatments. The only window in the charoit is small and made up with glass block which provides a very good sound barrier.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/05/24 at 04:07:08
Hey JB,

Thanks. Yes, this system does work very effectively, and it is simple to create at a very low cost factor. The really good thing about it is that it is completely reversible for regular window dressings if desired.

Most common noise is during the daytime anyway. After 8:00 PM, it is very quiet in this area. Just the occasional freight train in the distance and Amazon flying overhead between midnight and 2:00 AM. After these Boeing 767 freighters pass over my house, they are on approach to the runway just 8 miles away from here.  I hear them flyover, but the level of noise is acceptable when they do, roughly a third of what the noise level would be without the window covers. I find that to be very good for my needs.  Actually, I think about half of what I do hear is coming through the roof above the room.

Now for studio purposes, that would still be a problem. I for one usually am going to bed by this time, so no problem at all for me.

Even so, when I am sending a good flow of juice from my ToriMK3 to my speakers, I can assure you, I am totally oblivious to any of this while listening to music anyway.

All is good.

[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/05/24 at 06:31:42
Now that I have a little time, I shall continue where I left off with the beginning stages of acoustic treatment for this room. I am going to start with the ceiling and get that out of the way first. What I am presenting to you with the next series of images is the build and installation of my large scale hanging binary diffuser/absorber panels. I will also use one of these panels on the back wall behind my listening position. That unit gets mounted on top of the huge ternary diffuser/absorber which sits on the floor. I shall cover that design later on.

These binary panels are inherent to partial absorption while providing total dispersion of reflective sound which does not get absorbed.This binary system utilizes a complex order of absorptive and reflective areas, resulting in pressure reflection coefficients within a nominal 0 and 1, therefore  creating a variable impedance surface.  

The end result is a balance of sound absorption across the Noise Reduction Coefficient frequency bandwidth. *(The basic definition of this NRC bandwidth refers to the absorption average within the four areas of 250 Hz, 500 Hz, 1000 Hz, and 2000 Hz : The average effect of sound energy as it is absorbed within a surface area is implied).

This design provides an excellent degree of sound absorption, while maintaining the critical embodiment of sustained spatial ambience by means of high frequency diffusion. The real advantage of having this type of system in a small room is the very short distance it takes to complete a full cycle of effective diffusion as compared to the quadratic principles of diffusion.

Again, the use of quadratic diffusers are of little use for a room this size. Unless the ceiling height is at least 12 ft, I would not expect them to be effective for my situation concerning ceiling treatment. I can expect much greater effectiveness using the binary panel design when implemented properly. Don't get me wrong, quadratic diffusers are great at what they are designed to do within rooms which have the required space for these to work properly.  I have built many large scale quadratic diffusion systems in the past. I have a good deal of experience experimenting with them and I can confirm that they work very well in a large space.


Here is some of the data provided to show the performance of the EXPO panel for which my panels are cloned from. This should give good insight as to how effective my panels actually are in my situation.



As shown, this shows the results for using 2 inch depth of 6lb/ft3 fiberglass as the absorbent layer.



What I am using is a total of four layers x 1.8 inches thick of Ultra Touch Denim absorbent material for a total of 7.2 inches depth within my binary panels. So by comparison, when you see the huge effectiveness at 3 inches, and then improved with 5 inches depth, you can determine the overall performance of my units using over 7 inches of this material.  I think this data is all that one needs to know in order to prove that these designs work very well.




  This just provides some insight as to the dramatic difference in which the choice of absorbent materials, the density, along with the total depth can make in the end result.  Of course, do not forget the importance of airspace between these units and the ceiling or wall surface.  This factor makes a huge difference in absorption efficiency.  As I showed you the comparison previously between ROXUL and fiberglass, you saw the importance of airflow resistivity as it is factored within the design parameters of these sound absorbers. There are many choices. There is the right choice for the right application. You have to determine which choice is best suited for your application.



Now that you are informed with the facts of how these designs work, and why they are best suited for my application, you can better understand my reasoning for choosing this design as my primary diffusion principal for a room this size. I am extremely satisfied with the results. What these have done to transform my audio space is simply remarkable!

With that said, it is time to proceed with the build. I shall return shortly.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/05/24 at 18:03:19

Schroeder presented a folding technique referred to as the Chinese Remainder Theorem. This technique was applied to phase grating diffusers based on poly-phase sequences.

This same technique became the basis for a binary hybrid diffuser.  A 1d sequence is folded into a 2D array in order to provide a hemispherical dimension with the ability to preserve critical auto-covariance properties within the design.


This is a base one dimensional sequence for a binary diffuser. This sequence is then converted into a more complex two dimensional array for which my panels are based on.






This became the final result of that folding sequence which expanded the simple one dimensional model into the complex 2d model. The pattern shown is one full 2d sequence in this hybrid binary design.




According to the patent information, the following graph shows the performance curves for comparing the binary, ternary, & quadra-phase diffusers utilizing a BEM model to obtain the predicted absorption coefficients for each type of diffusive surface. These are prediction estimates.





The actual absorption material used for these diffuser models regulates the effect of absorption gained within the low frequency response for each.

The high frequency absorption coefficient is a factor determined by the open area of essentially 0.5.  This design follows the characteristics of a perforated resonant absorber. The peak absorption rate falls within the mid frequency bands.


There is similarity of the scattering produced between the unipolar binary and ternary diffusers based at even multiples. However, at odd multiples, the ternary diffuser provides improved scattering with a greater reduction of specular lobing.




Showing this three dimensional grid view of the finished layout, this provides a very good perception of how this complex code looks visually. You can see the developing pattern over the broad spectrum. The individual squares are the culmination of repetitive inversion and rotation tactics with the base sequence.      




Another view of this from a different perspective.




 

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/05/24 at 20:49:27
To get started drilling up these panels if d.i.y., stack the amount of 1/2 inch panels ( MDF or plywood ) together and secure with pilot holes through each of the four corners. Then drill up to the size of retaining bolts used to keep these panels securely together for the entire time they are being drilled. These must also be secured around the perimeter with clamps to keep the layers from expanding with the pressure of the drill bit as it passes through the stack. Once that happens, debris works its way between the rise in the sheets causing miss-drilled alignment and blow out between the holes. Once that happens, you need to start over again with new material. You certainly don't want to drill each of these panels independently, or you just may take five years doing it.  The best solution here is to have a local CNC shop do this for you if possible. The results will be quick and perfect, and you won't have to do this by hand. I think four to five 1/2 inch panels are going to be the limit for what you can drill by hand simultaneously.

Just remember this, the bottom sheet is going to be sacrificial due to excessive blow out caused by the drill bit plunging through without something flat against it.  I did not want my table full of holes, so the bottom sheet was placed on riser blocks for an airspace underneath the stack. Simply means that your bottom sheet is not usable and will be discarded.  If done on a machine, this would be avoided. When these panels are drilled out, the end result will be fifty percent of the panel area removed due to the material drilled out. These panels are based upon a 50/50 absorption/diffusion rule. The holes of course represent the absorption factor, which by the inherit design of this hybrid model, also works to create the balance of diffusion by doing so.






As seen, this stack of panels is well advanced through the drilling stage. Just showing you the stack set up from the side perspective using clamps to keep the panels from rising under pressure. This is extremely critical that you monitor this process. A mistake here would be devastating. I guarantee you this will ruin your day, and then some!





I have three words to describe whether or not you will be successful in completing this task without failure: (DISCIPLINE + PATIENCE + ACCURACY)

This process of drilling is done in several steps.  To try and skip these steps would be foolish and unprofessional.



First, the accuracy of the layout must be as perfect as possible. Whatever mistake happens with the top sheet continues through the entire stack. These holes are very close together. In order not to have conjoined holes or a weakened structure due to lack of webbing between the holes, the centering of these initial pilot holes must be the proper distance from each other.  Just as importantly, these holes must be maintained perfectly straight from the top to the bottom. There can be no deviation and there is very little room for error.

This of course requires the use of a drilling platform which can be repetitively used with perfect accuracy each and every time you drill a hole.  Another good reason for using a CNC machine.  The option I took was to create my own drilling platform which is completely mobile, accurate, and easy to place in any position.  I built a drilling rig out of spare parts from a torn down microwave and some other odds and ends I had laying around. The end result was a fabrication which no tool on the market can compare with, especially when this rig cost me nothing extra to assemble.  Just make sure that a heavy duty high quality drill is used along with very high quality bits such as titanium coated that will last without dulling easily.

Second, after the layout is completed and checked for accuracy, it is time to indent each and every drill location for the drill bit to catch and remain stable without drifting from center.

Third, each and every drill location must be drilled with a pilot hole much smaller than the actual diameter of the finished hole. This allows the final drilling process to execute flawlessly without fear of being off center. The bit will find its way every time without fail. The end result will be far less tear out and drift.  Your holes will be much cleaner and visually pleasing.  This process takes a great deal of time to complete by hand.  If time is an issue, then you better get a shop to do it for you.

Fourth, step up to the final drill bit size and slowly bore the holes being careful not to over stress the MDF which will lead to lifting between the material and imminent failure.

There will be a huge amount of debris from the drilling. It is advisable to have a shop vac with a dust collection system to keep the MDF dust to a minimum. Half of this material will end up as waste. After drilling so many holes, stop and vacuum up the debris from the holes and area in general. You will also need an orbital sander to keep the surface flat and smooth for the drilling rig base to glide over. If you place the bottom of the base over a drilled area that has not been sanded smooth, you guessed it, this will cause the drill bit path to wander off center and destroy your panels. That amount which is off in the first panel goes up exponentially by the time the drill bit passes through the last panel. Ends up being quite a bit of deviation. This is simply not acceptable.

YOU CANNOT ATTEMPT THIS BY DRILLING FREEHAND. THIS SIMPLY WILL NOT WORK!

In my case, I had to drill 11,625 holes with the drilling rig.  For three sheets of material, or three binary panels, that would be a grand total of 34,875 holes!


DO I NEED TO STRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS ANY FURTHER?  I think the point is obvious and clear.

BTW, I only had to replace the titanium drill bit once, and that was after 80 percent completion. The replacement bit is still in use and very sharp. It pays to use high quality tools.


[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/05/24 at 21:35:48


View of shop VAC routed through a dust collection system.




Don't forget the orbital sander.






View looking down over my custom d.i.y. drilling rig made from spare parts and material.





A rear view of the drilling rig.





This platform is extremely stable and solid. The drilling accuracy is dead on every time. The spring loaded glide rail system works very smoothly and with great ease.





The design of this platform which I created is very easy to use repetitively. It takes very little effort to operate this drilling rig as you don't have the weight of the drill causing fatigue in your hand. You will always drill straight perfect holes without worry.





It is paramount that you set up the accuracy of your drill very carefully. It is a good idea to occasional spot check the position of the bit and never assume anything.








You are set to get started.    HAPPY DRILLING!


[smiley=icqlite19.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/05/24 at 22:48:28
How's that drilling coming along?


;D

















The day that you finally make it to the last hole to drill, you can separate the panels and rejoice at what you have.  Just sand everything smooth and vacuum up the mess.  Now was that so hard?





[smiley=thumbup.gif]






This panel can be made as one 2d grid as shown here in base form. It may be easier for you to construct these as single panels. This would give you more flexibility in where and how to install them. Of course, these can be rotated and inverted anyway you like to achieve the resulting pattern you desire. The main objective is to do this in a sensible approach in which to keep repetitive lobing at a minimum.  For tighter areas that need spot treatment, this is ideal.  Of course these can be expanded as large as you desire as time allows you to construct more. I required full scale panels, so yes, I had to do it the hard way.  Like I said before, nothing is worthwhile without the effort and determination. You get exactly what you put into it. If you build what I have shown you here, you will be rewarded immensely beyond your expectations.



The audio room is located just above this shop.





The grid array encompasses a 35 x 34 2d layout pattern. The requirements for this design call out for 1/2 inch squares which populate the grid with the 1's and 0's in binary fashion.  The drill bit must be smaller than a 1/2 inch for obvious reasons. But you want the hole as large as it can reasonably be, yet not weaken the webbing around the holes. If you don't maintain structural stability, you will end up with a useless panel.





It is time to move on now to the next stage, building the framework and suspension system for hanging these units from the ceiling.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/06/24 at 02:27:05


A look at the required mounting hardware for suspending this full scale absorber/diffuser module from the ceiling.

There will be six attachment points with a load rating of 100 pounds for each connection point. That is a total of 600 pounds holding power. This unit when stuffed with four layers of Ultra Touch Denim insulation will weigh in at around 85 to 90 pounds. So you see, the strength of the suspension system is far greater than the actual load. The hooks are tightly embedded into the ceiling joists which go into the attic above the audio room. They are threaded deeply within hardwood. There is absolutely zero chance they will break loose or have any undue stress at all.  To top that off for extra measure, each and every connection point has a fail safe design where there is a primary and a secondary steel connector holding it very securely. Even if any did fail, there are 5 more with 5 more back-up points to keep things safe.  These have been suspended in my room now for several years.  They have not fallen on my head yet!



[smiley=tunes40.gif]

































































You see the clearance that I maintained under the cross support bar which is bolted directly to the binary panel to prevent bowing under weight. This allows for several layers of the denim insulation to fit snugly underneath the bar.  Once the unit is hung, there will be another layer of absorbent material placed across the top.































The chain links fit nicely around the mounting screw. They will not slip off, but they do have enough slack to swivel easily. These screws are heavy duty and they penetrate completely through the center bar.














Here you can see the mounting configuration which details the double hook safety backup. These attach points are connected to two critical anchor points and act as a backup to each other in case one fails for some very unlikely reason. The integrity of this setup is way overbuilt to withstand much higher levels of force. This will never be a safety issue.
















Now that the hardware is all installed and this unit is ready to be hung in place, the last thing to do is layer the denim insulation within the bed.

Before that is done, this unit needs sanding and paint.



Next I will show the installation of the absorbent material.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/06/24 at 04:16:44
Just opened a box of Ultra Touch Denim insulation which is 1.8 inches thick once it relaxes and fully expands. This one box of six rolls is only enough to install the first layer of absorbent within the bed. Each of these binary hybrid absorber/diffuser modules will require a total of four boxes of this material. That is 24 rolls.











I am showing you for demonstration purposes only how this looks fully stuffed. I have not got around to painting these units yet. I will get them painted and take these upstairs before I refill them. This makes the transport of these upstairs much easier. Much of this stuffing can be done after the units are securely hung from the ceiling.






























The ceiling units are all finished and hung.






Just another example of a good binary configuration of these base arrays. This displays a six panel example with a nice uniform pattern.







So now it is time to create some acoustic devices for the back of the room. Perhaps I will begin with the major build of the large full scale ternary absorber/diffuser unit. This unit is so large and heavy, that it must be built in place within the audio room. I prefabbed the parts, and test fitted these in the garage first. Then all parts were transported upstairs for final assembly.

That project is coming up next.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/10/24 at 21:05:56
Bad weather again!  Let's examine the next step of this acoustic device building process. This time it is all about Ternary diffuser models. This is the exact model which I built my large ternary absorber/diffuser for the back of the room. That model will be shown in detail as it was built.






The Ternary design takes things up a few notches in performance over the Binary versions. This also comes at a cost of more complexity, but still easy enough to build.


Where the Ternary design excels beyond that of the Binary counterpart, is that now we incorporate a third function of the diffusion factor. That third factor involves using a QUARTER WAVELENGTH well with a slanted face.  That well becomes a (-1). So now, the build is based upon three factors, Zero Depth, Full Absorption, and a Quarter Wavelength slanted well.

So, you can use the Binary design for your absorption/diffusion needs,........

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/11/24 at 00:15:18

The purpose of these room diffusers is that of exploiting interference. This is accomplished by reflecting waves out of phase with the specular energy. The end result is that of reduced specular energy.


When a single sequence of diffusion is used, but with reversed order of the sequence between two diffusers, this is known as "single asymmetric" modulation. An example of this would be (110100-1) + (-1001011). For even multiples of the design frequency, reflection coefficients revert to zero and one, however, the structure is less periodic.


Taking a look at Schroeder based diffusers such as Quadratic Residue types, one method used is to modulate a diffuser with its inverse. This is accomplished with two sequences producing the same degree of scattering, except that these are in opposite phase with each other. With Ternary diffusers, (110100-1) would then convert to (-1-10-1001). From this implementation, a pseudo random sequence can be determined for the proper order of these placed upon a wall. If done accordingly, periodicity is greatly reduced.


The idea is to exploit interference by the reflection of waves "out of phase" with the specular lobe. By combining the attributes of amplitude grating with that of reflection phase grating, this promotes a strong new class of hybrid diffusers. Elements of reflective and absorptive patches in regards to amplitude grating, are combined with the addition of extra reflective patches (wells), which are based upon a "quarter wavelength" in depth of the design frequency.

This method constructively interferes with the zero depth reflective wells. A ternary diffuser promotes good characteristics regarding this by using surface reflection coefficients of 0, 1, and -1.  The negative one wells have a pressure reflection coefficient which correlates at a depth of one quarter of a wavelength for the design frequency, and at odd multiples of this frequency. This results in out of phase waves in conjunction with waves produced by the specular lobe energy, which in this case, are the wells with a pressure coefficient of +1. The result of this design is to further reduce specular reflection.


The resulting design is a hybrid absorber/diffuser concept which is a combination of absorptive wells (zero), with reflective wells (+1), and the addition of (quarter wavelength wells = -1) based upon the design frequency plus the odd multiples of this frequency.

With the addition of the quarter wavelength well (-1), the ternary design outperforms the binary amplitude diffuser with far better reduction of the specular lobe by comparison.


Ternary diffusers are an extension of the binary amplitude diffuser, with superior scattering performance per same degree of absorption as the (B.A.D.) panel design.


Boundary Element Modeling shows that a longer N31 ternary based sequence as mine are modeled after, offer better performance with practical acoustic solutions. Modulation is a defining characteristic here. Even further improvement is gained by modifying the negative one wells which are based upon quarter wavelength, by altering the shape of the well with ramping or folding techniques. By modifying these well surfaces into a slanted form, this introduces additional quarter wave depths, in which create a poly-phase absorber/diffuser hybrid, thus adding further interference at additional frequencies, and odd multiples thereafter.

If we were to imagine how something like this would look visually as opposed to just hearing the difference, perhaps it would display a visual effect such as what the following images portray. At least in some regard, this is in respect to what they actually do once impending sound waves strike the face of the wells.

















Just my take on things, but you get the drift.


:D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/11/24 at 02:27:53
Alright, so now that you understand the basis for this design, and why its concept is a good choice for my application, let's begin by actually building a very large scale of one designed for lower frequency absorption and diffusion performance. This design can be purpose built to cover whatever frequency range you desire for your room. Anything lower than this designated frequency range is handled solely by absorption principles.

The higher the frequency bandwidth, the less depth required. The higher frequencies call for progressively narrower wells respectively. So obviously, if you desire a ternary diffuser with a range strictly in the mid to upper mid-range, then the overall size becomes much more manageable and easier to build.

Remember, low bass frequencies require very large, very deep absorbers to have any effect upon them. The most troublesome frequencies concerning the root cause of standing waves are typically at 300 Hz and under. The function of a bass absorber is paramount below that range.


The set of all possible standing waves are in direct relation to the harmonics of a system. The simplest form of harmonics are know as the fundamental/first harmonic. This evolves into the second, third, fourth, etc. Harmonics above the fundamental can be referred to as overtones.




The following chart provides data in which to predict the frequency band performance of a chosen quadratic residue diffuser design proposed by Schroeder.





An overview depicting the nature of standing waves.





Next, I will take you to my shop and show the ternary absorber/diffuser build in process.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/11/24 at 04:25:55
The beginning stage. This is the bottom of the cabinet base showing the floor pedestals with felt to protect the flooring.




The next few images are in the shop prefabbing the parts and dry fitting them for accuracy. I will be taking the parts up to the audio room to assemble this unit there.














It is time to assemble this unit within the audio room. All parts are pre-cut and checked for proper fit.













I will continue this build when I get the time to do so.. I hope you all have found something valuable out of this progress. The end result was certainly worth all of the time and effort that went into this project.  There is much more detail to be covered with this ternary unit.




[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 07/12/24 at 16:45:03
Certainly a wealth of information here. A lot to digest.

Great insight into what it takes to go from 'good' sound in a room to 'as good as it can get' in a room.
Very dependent on the room and the exact needs of that room. Figuring that out is half the battle I would assume. Takes a very thorough understanding to get it right.

I can see why people (me included) buy pre-fab units to try to treat the room. It helps, but it only scratches the surface if you don't know what targets you're aiming for.

Thanks for sharing!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/16/24 at 03:07:10
Great insight into what it takes to go from 'good' sound in a room to 'as good as it can get' in a room.
Very dependent on the room and the exact needs of that room. Figuring that out is half the battle I would assume. Takes a very thorough understanding to get it right.


That is my goal here, to help advance the understanding which just may motivate those who want the best experience possible in their audio rooms.

When you factor in that an audio room is responsible for at least half of what you hear in your music, it should be a top priority when obviously people are concerned about how good their equipment sounds to them. That will either be a positive influence reinforced by the room itself, or a very bad influence which will falsely lead one to believe that the equipment is subpar. Nothing else could be further from the truth concerning the latter in most cases.

It all comes down to one very simple and honest conclusion. If you understand that a bad acoustic environment is going to make your system sound just as bad, then why would one continue to listen in that environment, ignoring the reality of the core problem, and just keep looking for more expensive upgrades to the equipment instead? There is an extreme lack of rationale there, completely void of logic.

I believe that what it takes, is to lead by example, and prove just how critical the room's influence is, and why it is so very important to make room acoustics top priority if one truly wants to experience what a good system can actually reveal.

There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that if I allowed some of these individuals who ignore acoustics as something to consider, to listen in my room now ( and that includes using their own equipment if they like), this would be the very thing that would motivate a change in their own direction concerning acoustics. It would truly become a revelation within their understanding. We all know that experience makes everything crystal clear and absolute.

What I would expect to hear from them would be comments such as: "I just can't believe what I am not only hearing, but actually feeling in this room"....and perhaps," I had no idea that my system could sound this great! I am hearing vast amounts of detail , clarity, and separation within the music that I never knew existed". Or perhaps another likely comment would be, " The room itself just seems to be so much larger, that it is as if the room didn't even exist. The spatial qualities are at a level which goes way beyond the imagination.  And finally, one may comment in a final conclusion that with this new experience, it would become very difficult to go back and listen to the system in a poor acoustic environment as before.

And of course, I like to see someone take a look around the room, as if searching for phantom sources of sound projection, not only wide to the sides, but extended way beyond from behind the listening position. That is what real holographic imagery is all about.  You will never experience the reality of this openness with bad room acoustics, that is the cold hard fact!  You might think that you are, but just one listen in a well balanced audio room, and you will quickly understand the difference. Once that you have, it is very doubtful that you would want to return to a substandard alternative when it can be avoided.

Oh, and did I mention the quality and magnitude of low frequency information which suddenly just reveals itself at levels of pure amazement?  No, but you would marvel at what transpires in this regard once the room acoustics are within balance.

The effect of room modes absolutely destroys the quality of music perception! The degree of well defined accurate bass response is one thing that you will gain in a very significant manner. If you lack bass in your music, then perhaps you might want to do something about it. If you are swimming in a space full of frequency cancellations and bloating due to peaks and nulls, (and I can almost guarantee this is your situation in a smaller room), there is only one thing that can correct this.  I am showing how this is done. Either believe in the paramount foundation of acoustic control in which will grant you the very thing you are searching for, or just flat out ignore it. You are the one to benefit from this, not me.


Now it is understood that some people simply can't modify their listening room due to certain circumstances.  It is also understood that people do not want to accept that room acoustics could possibly make enough difference to make it worth their time. Really doesn't matter what the case is, acoustics matter more than anything else. If you are going to keep investing thousands in upgrades to the system in hope that somehow this will fix everything, well, that is going to be a very long and disappointing journey.

Words simply can not justify how critical this is, and no matter what I say here, it will never have the impact as a game changer that a live listening experience will most definitely convey.

Just because someone thinks they have treated a room good enough, one has to ask, was it the right choice to correct what actually needed attention, or perhaps, could this have actually had a negative impact on acoustics rather than doing what was expected? One of the biggest mistakes people make out of ignorance to the science of acoustics, is to overuse absorption tactics without the strict compliance of keeping the room ambience alive with the proper degree of reflection, and the correct use of diffusion techniques.

Yes, you are very correct, it does take a great deal of experience and knowledge to make acoustics work well in the audio room. The end result is a direct reflection of what these acoustic measures actually are. Just because someone throws thousands of dollars into various acoustic devices, then haphazardly places them around the room, does that guarantee a perfect outcome?  I doubt it, not unless these devices were well planned and created precisely to counter the problems at hand. No two rooms are the same. Each and every listening room have their own particular unique problems. What works well in one particular situation does not necessarily become the thing to do in another situation.


Large listening spaces require completely different measures than what small audio rooms must undergo to be worthwhile.  It is far more difficult to make a smaller room sound as good as a larger room, especially when that larger space is built with ideal dimensions which conform to the golden ratio aspect.  There is a proper tool for every job. You don't use a screwdriver to remove a bolt!  Every situation requires a targeted approach in order to identify the actual problem, and what it actually takes to correct that problem.  I make this very clear concerning diffusion techniques. Prime number quadratic residue diffusers are the first choice in a large space.  They are a poor choice in a small room.  The design of binary diffusion tactics was developed as an improved alternative to use in smaller rooms. If you truly understand the science behind these designs, then there will be absolutely no doubt as to the reality of this proof.

If you can afford to invest that much money in acoustic products which are completely overpriced for what they actually are, then great, that is the easy route. At least you are doing something about a very bad situation. But for those on a budget who just can't spend endless amounts of cash on toys, but simply want a cost effective way to solve their acoustic problems, then the d.i.y approach makes perfect sense.

Sure, not everyone has a shop or the tools to get this done, but most people have friends that will help them do this at a reasonable cost.  And of course, there are those that simply do not want to build these devices.  Sure, there are many reasons to buy from a commercial outlet, but that comes at a huge price! You may not be able to get that premium device which would be perfect for your situation, but you can still compromise and come up with a lesser form of rectification which fits your means respectively. For the actual investment, if you are armed with the proper degree of knowledge, and posses the ability to create these designs yourself, then you are going to get a much greater return on your investment when you compare how much more you can get for a fraction of the price.  If that is not a factor of concern, then by all means, go retail.  Just make sure you actually know what you are buying and that this is the proper choice for your needs.

If you buy the wrong devices, you are in for a very expensive lesson in failure. Just remember, a snake oil salesman will sell you anything that will be the "cure all" for your needs according to his sales pitch.  He has something to gain from convincing you to part with your money.  Someone who gives advice from a logical approach, yet has zero expectation of profit, is most likely the direction which will guide you to success. This source of advice usually stems from honesty and experience.


It is very difficult to get things exactly as they should be. So naturally, it is expected that mistakes will be made, and changes will be required. When you have very little investment in a failure, it is easy to overcome. It is hard to rationalize failure when the cost factor becomes a devastating reminder of how true this really is.

That is something to strongly consider.

Your comments here reinforce exactly what I just covered. I just expanded upon the very things that you indicated.

Whatever choice you make concerning acoustics, just do your homework and get an A on the final exam!

And of course, there is plenty more to come here.


8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/16/24 at 04:59:55
Here are more images showing the build detail that went into this ternary diffuser.

































































































Now that the front structure is in place, I made use of some old acoustic foam and used this as grill covers to conceal the absorptive material placed behind this foam.

Next, I will show you the rear interior assembly and the process of filling the unit with fiberglass as the absorbent.



You see the frame section mounted to the top of the ternary absorber/diffuser. This is the mount for supporting the binary panel in the upcoming stages.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/24/24 at 03:53:03

Now it is time to start stuffing the Ternary section with R13 fiberglass.

This unit is designed to handle very low frequencies. Bass absorption is handled extremely well at the rear of the room where standing waves tend to be at their worst. This design incorporates both a diffusive element as well as excellent bass absorption properties.











These are the final layers of R13 with the paper at the rear to provide protection against airborne contamination which is very bad for one's health. And just know this in case you are wondering about the paper creating a negative influence here, bass frequencies don't even see this paper at all, as if it simply does not exist. There is absolutely zero effect that the paper backing has on the bass absorption performance. That includes the addition of the cardboard rear cover which conceals all of this.










As you can see in this image, the top binary section was actually completed at this stage as I did this part last.  I will be going over the build of the top section next. Then you will see the stages that went into it's completion.

















Now you can see why this unit had to be built in place due to its size and weight!



So next, it is time to focus upon the top section that you saw already completed in the above images. This involves the assembly of the binary panel within the framework.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/24/24 at 05:41:59
With the ternary absorber/diffuser built, you will now see the beginning stages of how the top mounted binary counterpart is assembled.



































Now that the binary panel is securely mounted to the base unit, it is time to start filling it with sound absorption material. This is done with two layers of different material. The first layer is of the denim 1.8 inch thick material. This gets followed up with a layer of R13 fiberglass with paper backing. I wanted the denim layer to be behind the face of the panel for protection against any hazardous fiberglass particles that could potentially become airborne.




The blue denim material just being started.





As you can see in the image, the inner frame of the binary panel fits snugly within the outer frame of the base unit. Just a few screws around the perimeter and it is very strong and secure.



























The first layer of fiberglass material is in place over the denim material. Now you see the second layer of fiberglass being installed for a total of three layers of sound absorbing material behind the binary panel.











The next step is to seal the edges together with tape before installing the rear panel grid.








The final step is to install the rear grid to keep things in place.





















And there you have it. A fully complete rear wall acoustic correction device that works exceptionally well in this room.


8-)


Next, I will begin showing the design and build of the metal diaphragmatic poly-cylindrical corner bass absorbers.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Gilf on 07/24/24 at 11:44:13
Thanks for sharing all this. I enjoy the journey of learning about what you have done. I woke up this morning thinking about this thread and was pleased to see some new information.

Could you explain more about how the holes were laid out in posts 107 - 111. What did you use to generate the random sequence and how did you transfer that sequence onto the sheets?

Also, did you consider using contact film or masking tape on the bottom sheet in your stack when drilling holes to prevent blow-out? Usually when I work with a critical cut and am concerned about chipping a simple strip of masking tape will prevent the cut/hole from splitting.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/28/24 at 07:34:22
Thanks for sharing all this. I enjoy the journey of learning about what you have done. I woke up this morning thinking about this thread and was pleased to see some new information.


Hello GILF, glad to hear this has been something of interest for you.

[smiley=beer.gif]

Well, let me try to explain some of this and make it a bit more clear for you and anyone else wondering about this. I realize that I never went into full detail about this process. However, since you asked, I will go a bit deeper into it.

Oh, and BTW, keep checking in as this thread has a long way to go for those interested. This is going to expand into a new transformation which currently brings me to a level of audio nirvana which I am so completely satisfied to be enjoying now.

And there will be new things introduced later this year after I take care of important house repairs. I am deep into a roofing project now. When I finish with the roof, I shall have more time to get back to this audio project.  This coming week is calling for heavy rain every day for seven days straight.  I am going to get done what I can between rain periods, but it sounds like I will have more time indoors to get back to this for now.

Soon I will be going into stage two of this audio room development. I am thinking there will be a stage three sometime after that.  I have been on a buying spree trying to purchase every HQ remastered CD that I can find which many are 1:1 direct transfers from the master tapes onto the HDCD & K2 high definition transfers. What these reveal with my current system has become a huge enlightenment for which I know now how superior these really sound. It really is beyond words what these bring to the realism and dynamics of quality music. This last couple of weeks have been by far the best audio experience for me EVER!

I feel blessed to have discovered just how great my Q-force speakers and ToriMK3 together really are.

[smiley=icqlite14.png] WHOOPS! I wasn't supposed to reveal that factor yet...oh well, just consider that bit of info a teaser for stage two.


This has been an absolute revelation for me. I never thought digital could sound this superb.  This makes me want to trash all of the standard consumer CD's that were mainstream productions. When I hear these, I realize just how much I was missing all of these years, and the system is totally irrelevant as to how these were ever going to sound.

Those limitations are clear and absolute when compared to a correctly mastered version in a HQ format.  This truly was the missing link for me. One simply can't know how good a system really is until the critical factor of the source recording itself is of the utmost perfection. For me, this is as clear as comparing a Beta-max tape to a blue ray disc. It really is that dramatic of a difference in my system. This of course is proof that my audio room acoustics are properly engineered. I just can't imagine how much better it could ever be. It really doesn't matter at this level, as I am extremely pleased with what I am experiencing now.

As I stated earlier, I do plan on a few more acoustics devices which I have in development as the final addition to this room. These are intended for the front of the room to enhance the sound-stage around the speakers even wider than the current form.  That is going to be a huge gain considering what I already hear now. You can call that fine tuning, the last minute adjustment.


In phase three of this thread, I will be going into those reviews by comparing the HQ versions to the standard consumer versions. I may have to start that thread over in the music section to be appropriate.

As you are a professional studio technician who understands what I am talking about here, I think you would really appreciate a day listening to these HQ transfers in this room. Words are one thing, but complete understanding only comes from real time experience.

OK, sorry for going on with that, but it really is something special.



Could you explain more about how the holes were laid out in posts 107 - 111. What did you use to generate the random sequence and how did you transfer that sequence onto the sheets?



Sure, I will reiterate concerning this process and try to make it more clear.

This design is patented by Dr. Peter D'Antonio who led the company RPG for many years from its inception. This design derives from very complex number computations which took very sophisticated computers to arrange.  So in essence, what I am showing you here as the primary number sequence array is an exact clone of what RPG developed and licensed for retail.  I can assure you that the commercial versions of these EXPO panels are very expensive.

If you research the patent information concerning the EXPO panels, it goes into extensive and complex detail concerning the development and theory behind the technology.





If you examine any of the single array patterns which I displayed in the six panel grid, you are then seeing the exact base sequence which is used to make your own panels. These can be arranged in alternative configurations without hurting the performance of the sequencing itself.

What I did to come up with one very large panel while maintaining an acceptable full scale sequence was to use (INVERSE) + ( ROTATION) tactics, as long as uniformity was maintained.  Think of each transition as a mirror image of each consecutive expansion of the base sequence.

The requirements for this base grid are to use 1/2 inch holes within a very solid and dense material. The depth of the face plate will determine the actual frequency range affected as will the size of the hole. In my case, the material is 1/2 inch deep, which makes these array 1's and 0's close to a half inch cube. Since the webbing needs to be strong enough between the holes, the actual hole diameter was selected as a drill bit just smaller than that to maintain strength and avoid cross drilling. That is hard to do by hand. A CNC machine is much more accurate for this type of thing.





You see the pattern I displayed for the actual layout of this panel. Using this grid as a master template is all that you need to complete the full scale panel layout. That layout depends upon how you choose to structure it.

Take the fact that each segment for the 1's and 0's are half inch square. Then count out the grid sequence horizontally and vertically. Center the holes for the sections that require drilling (white sections). The blue segments are left solid. I made my template out of heavy paper.

Then draw out your intersect lines on the full scale panel which this gets transferred to. That way your alignment remains consistent. You must leave at least a couple of inches solid material around the entire outer perimeter of the panel for strength.

Start the template in the normal position in a corner of the grid lines. Then flip the template downward revealing the backside. This creates an inverse sequence. Then flip it back to normal where you started from. Next you can either flip the template over to the right of the corner grid for another inverse, or begin the rotation factor here and then again flip that sequence downward as an inverse. You are free to lay this out as you like. The performance will not be hampered. This process simply continues until you reach the maximum of your panel size. If you examine the full layout carefully, you can see the formation of the uniform sequence. If it is not uniform, then something must have gone wrong.

You start by marking each hole location with a machinist spring loaded punch which sets the starter indentation for drilling accurate holes without drifting. Then each starter indentation must be pre-drilled with a much smaller drill bit than the final size. The last step is to actually drill the holes with the bit used to make the full size hole. Just remember that a half inch bit is going to be too large and will not work. If you desire to maintain an exact half inch hole, then your grid spacing must be enlarged as well to accommodate an actual half inch hole.

Just note this, these can be made individually into single grids. Then the individual grids can be placed on the wall or ceiling in any fashion that you see fit. I wanted full scale large panels. That is why my application called for this particular layout onto on large panel.

Just make sure that you get the base sequence right. This is critical and must be adhered to correctly.



Also, did you consider using contact film or masking tape on the bottom sheet in your stack when drilling holes to prevent blow-out? Usually when I work with a critical cut and am concerned about chipping a simple strip of masking tape will prevent the cut/hole from splitting.



I got the MDF sheets at a very cheap price so I was not worried about making the bottom one into a sacrificial sheet.  With the price of MDF today, sure, absolutely I would have protected that bottom sheet from blowout to keep its integrity in check.

I think I would go with plywood if I were to do this again. Much better material and the blowout would be minimal.  I will tell you this, I am NOT about to go through that drilling process again.  I would hire a CNC shop to do it for me.


I hope this made some kind of sense to you. It is easier to show you in action.  I had that on my YouTube channel, but nobody seemed to take interest in that so I pulled the plug on it. They wanted the information, but failed to support my channel. I am not about to work for free. Too bad these people can't understand that. People today think that everything is free, and they could care less about the creator.  I gave away a lot of hard extensive work which I made into HQ 4K videos with nothing in return. I'm sure you know what kind of investment that requires. Goes without saying, it is simply the sign of the times.

This design does not belong to me anyway, so it will be shown here as public domain.

I am however very pleased to share it with someone who will make use of it and appreciate its value.


If you have any more questions about this, feel free to ask.

[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/30/24 at 17:22:55


Now it is time to examine the process of building my metal diaphragmatic corner bass absorbers.


First, let's define in simple terms what a "diaphragmatic" bass absorber is, and how it functions.


A diaphragmatic bass absorber works on the principle of using a sheet of material which is damped by use of another material behind it. This is built within an open back cabinet which allows air to pass through to the rear. This also works actively by maintaining an open space from the walls behind it to allow far better absorption performance. It is important to leave at least a couple of inches airspace, and not placing these units directly against the walls. This decreases its effectiveness when that becomes the case.


With this open back design, the unit will have a much wider range of effectiveness across the frequency bands. The material used as the face plate (sheet material), is critical for determining just how effective the unit will be, along with the type and depth of the absorbent material used in conjunction with the face plate.

The face plate MUST be able to vibrate in order to function properly. It is critical that in order for this to happen, there MUST be adequate airspace between the back of the face plate, and the absorbent material. In my case, I maintained approximately an inch of airspace in my design for this area.

 The only place the face plate should have any degree of contact with the cabinet is where it fits within the channel to hold it in place.  In my design, I used a loose fitting channel which allows the face plate some flexible freedom without being clenched too tightly. The metal face plate is installed within the channel by using flexible acoustic sealant to help give it the best degree of detachment without losing integrity of the structure itself. It is important that this face plate is sealed airtight within the channel.




The impending vibration from the face plate has the ability to absorb huge amounts of energy through the function of heat dissipation.


The resulting energy dissipation stems from the conversion of mechanical energy into heat.


A wave form is the propagating dynamic disturbance of one or many quantities.


When a wave is reduced in amplitude, the resulting factor becomes dissipation.


This factor of "dissipation" is a process of transforming energy from a base form into a "final" form. This is a process of thermal dynamics where the final form is weaker than the base form as an end result. What started out as concentrated energy, now becomes a dissipate state through heat as the transfer of energy spreads out to a reduced rate of travel and concentration.  Over time, the waves/oscillations will lose energy from the vibrating face panel as a form of friction. Therefore the thermal dynamic reaction of heat creates a loss of amplitude.



That is pretty easy to understand, right?


[smiley=tunes26.gif]



Next, I will begin showing you how this design is built.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Gilf on 07/30/24 at 21:09:10
Thanks for that explanation RPS.  

I created a grid using excel and a simple random number generator that gives each cell a value of 0 or 1, then assigned conditional formatting to color any cells with a value of 1.  Seems like a simple method to achieve the same result.  

The builder can print it out and tape the template to the sheet(s) to drill the colored cells, resulting in the intended pattern.  You can make the sheet any size you desire by dragging the formula to any configuration of cells and adjust your print size to your liking.  If anyone is interested PM me and I'll send you a copy of the file.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/31/24 at 04:51:29
I created a grid using excel and a simple random number generator that gives each cell a value of 0 or 1, then assigned conditional formatting to color any cells with a value of 1.  Seems like a simple method to achieve the same result.


Are you sure about that?

[smiley=icqlite16.png]


If you examine the complex mathematical equations used to create the optimum number sequence for the EXPO panel and the BAD panel array, you will learn that these number sequences are anything BUT simple random 1's and 0's.

I doubt that 'Antonio just simply used a basic random number generator to come up with such a complex design. There are many factors which MUST be determined when these numbers are folded to take in consideration important factors such as "Auto-Correlation", Modulation, and that of a very bad thing called "lobing" which must be reduced to a minimum!

You have the valuable and proven array shown to you here which is very easy to duplicate.


If I may, I would like to  suggest a very comprehensive source of information for educating someone interested in acoustic science.

Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers

Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers
Theory, design and application
Trevor J. Cox
University of Salford, UK
and
Peter D’Antonio
RPG Diffusor Systems Inc., USA


Contents
Preface xiv
Acknowledgements xviii
Glossary of frequently used symbols xix
Introduction 1
1 Applications and basic principles of absorbers 6
1.1 Reverberation control 6
1.1.1 A statistical model of reverberation 7
1.2 Noise control in factories and large rooms with
diffuse fields 11
1.3 Modal control in critical listening spaces 12
1.4 Echo control in auditoria and lecture theatres – basic
sound propagation models 13
1.4.1 Sound propagation – a wave approach 15
1.4.2 Impedance, admittance, reflection factor and
absorption 16
1.5 Absorption in sound insulation – transfer matrix
modelling 18
1.5.1 Transfer matrix modelling 19
1.6 Absorption for pipes and ducts – porous absorber
characteristics 20
1.6.1 Characterizing porous absorbers 21
1.7 Summary 22
1.8 References 22
2 Applications and basic principles of diffusers 23
2.1 Echo control in auditoria 23
2.1.1 Example applications 23
2.1.2 Wavefronts and diffuse reflections 26
2.1.3 Coherence and terminology 30
2.2 Reducing colouration in small rooms 32
2.2.1 Sound reproduction 32
2.2.2 Music practice rooms 39
2.3 Controlling modes in reverberation chambers 43
2.4 Improving speech intelligibility in underground
or subway stations 44
2.5 Promoting spaciousness in auditoria 44
2.6 Reducing effects of early arriving reflections
in large spaces 45
2.7 Diffusers for uniform coverage with overhead
stage canopies 46
2.8 Diffusers for rear and side of stage enclosures 48
2.9 Diffusers to reduce focussing effects of concave surfaces 52
2.10 Diffusion and road side barriers 53
2.11 Diffusion and street canyons 55
2.12 Conclusions 55
2.13 References 56
3 Measurementof absorber properties 58
3.1 Impedance tube or standing wave tube measurement 58
3.1.1 Standing wave method 61
3.1.2 Transfer function method 62
3.2 Two microphone free field measurement64
3.3 Multi-microphone techniques for non-isotropic,
non-planar surfaces 65
3.3.1 Multi-microphone free field measurement
for periodic surfaces 66
3.4 Reverberation chamber method 68
3.4.1 Measurement of seating absorption 71
3.5 In situ measurement of absorptive properties 74
3.6 Internal properties of absorbents 78
3.6.1 Measurement of flow resistivity 78
3.6.2 Measurementof flow impedance 81
3.6.3 Directmeasurementof wavenumber 82
3.6.4 Indirectmeasurementof wavenumber and
characteristic impedance 82
3.6.5 Measurementof porosity 83
3.7 Summary 85
3.8 References 85
4 Measurement and characterization of diffuse reflections
or scattering 87
4.1 Measurement of scattered polar responses 88
4.1.1 Near and far fields 95
viii Contents
4.1.2 Sample considerations 102
4.1.3 The total field and comb filtering 103
4.2 Diffusion and scattering coefficients, a general discussion 104
4.3 The need for coefficients 105
4.3.1 Diffuser manufacturer and application 105
4.3.2 Geometric room acoustic models 106
4.4 The diffusion coefficient107
4.4.1 Principle 107
4.4.2 Obtaining polar responses 109
4.4.3 Discussion 110
4.4.4 Diffusion coefficienttable 111
4.5 The scattering coefficient 112
4.5.1 Principle 112
4.5.2 Rationale and procedure 113
4.5.3 Sample considerations 116
4.5.4 Anisotropic surfaces 116
4.5.5 Predicting the scattering coefficient 118
4.6 From polar responses to scattering coefficients,
the correlation scattering coefficient 120
4.6.1 Scattering coefficient table 123
4.7 Contrasting diffusion and scattering coefficient:
a summary 124
4.8 Other methods for characterizing diffuse reflections 124
4.8.1 Measuring scattering coefficients by solving
the inverse problem 124
4.8.2 Room diffuseness 125
4.9 Summary 126
4.10 References 127
5 Porous absorption 129
5.1 Absorption mechanisms and characteristics 129
5.1.1 Covers 131
5.2 Material types 132
5.2.1 Mineral wool and foam 132
5.2.2 Recycled materials 133
5.2.3 Curtains (drapes) 134
5.2.4 Carpets 135
5.2.5 Absorbentplaster 135
5.2.6 Coustone or quietstone 137
5.3 Basic material properties 137
5.3.1 Flow resistivity 138
5.3.2 Porosity 140
5.4 Modelling propagation within porous absorbents 141
5.4.1 Macroscopic empirical models such as
Delany and Bazley 141
Contents ix
5.4.2 Further material properties 144
5.4.3 Theoretical models 145
5.5 Predicting the impedance and absorption
of porous absorbers 148
5.5.1 Single layer porous absorber with
rigid backing 149
5.6 Local and extended reaction 150
5.7 Oblique incidence 151
5.8 Biot theory for elastic-framed materials 153
5.9 Summary 155
5.10 References 155
6 Resonantabsorbers 157
6.1 Mechanisms 158
6.2 Example constructions 159
6.2.1 Bass trap membrane absorber 159
6.2.2 Helmholtz absorption 160
6.2.3 Absorption and diffusion 162
6.2.4 Clear absorption 163
6.2.5 Masonry devices 164
6.3 Design equations: resonant frequency 166
6.3.1 Helmholtz resonator 166
6.3.2 Losses 172
6.4 Example calculations 178
6.4.1 Slotted Helmholtz absorber 178
6.4.2 Porous absorbent filling the cavity 179
6.5 More complicated constructions 180
6.5.1 Double resonators 180
6.5.2 Microperforation 180
6.5.3 Lateral orifices 183
6.6 Summary 184
6.7 References 184
7 Miscellaneous absorbers 186
7.1 Seating and audience 186
7.2 Absorbers from Schroeder diffusers 188
7.2.1 Energy flow mechanism 189
7.2.2 Boundary layer absorption 191
7.2.3 Absorption or diffusion 191
7.2.4 Depth sequence 193
7.2.5 Use of mass elements 194
7.2.6 Number of wells 196
7.2.7 Theoretical model 196
x Contents
7.3 Summary 200
7.4 References 200
8 Prediction of scattering 202
8.1 Boundary elementmethods 202
8.1.1 The Helmholtz–Kirchhoff integral equation 204
8.1.2 General solution method 205
8.1.3 Thin panel solution 209
8.1.4 Periodic formulation 212
8.1.5 Accuracy of BEM modelling: thin rigid
reflectors 215
8.1.6 Accuracy of BEM modelling: Schroeder
diffusers 216
8.2 Kirchhoff 219
8.3 Fresnel 224
8.4 Fraunhofer or Fourier solution 225
8.4.1 Near and far field 226
8.4.2 Fraunhofer theory accuracy 227
8.5 Other methods 228
8.5.1 Transientmodel 228
8.5.2 FEA 229
8.5.3 Edge diffraction models 229
8.5.4 Wave decomposition and mode-matching
approaches 230
8.5.5 Random roughness 230
8.5.6 Boss models 231
8.6 Summary 231
8.7 References 231
9 Schroeder diffusers 233
9.1 Basic principles 233
9.2 Design equations 234
9.3 Some limitations and other considerations 236
9.4 Sequences 239
9.4.1 Maximum length sequence diffuser 239
9.4.2 Quadratic residue sequence 242
9.4.3 Primitive root sequence 242
9.4.4 Index sequences 245
9.4.5 Huffman and beyond 245
9.5 The curse of periodicity 248
9.6 Improving base response 257
9.7 Multi-dimensional devices 260
9.8 Absorption 263
Contents xi
9.9 But. . . 266
9.10 Optimization 268
9.10.1 Process 268
9.10.2 Results 271
9.11 Summary 273
9.12 References 274
10 Geometric reflectors and diffusers 276
10.1 Plane surfaces 276
10.1.1 Single panel response 276
10.1.2 Panel array response: far field arc 281
10.1.3 Panel array response: near field 282
10.2 Triangles and pyramids 284
10.2.1 Arrays of triangles 287
10.3 Concave arcs 288
10.4 Convex arcs 290
10.4.1 Geometric scattering theory and cut-off
frequencies 291
10.4.2 Performance of simple curved diffusers 293
10.5 Optimized curved surfaces 297
10.5.1 Example application 297
10.5.2 Design process 298
10.5.3 Performance for unbaffled single
optimized diffusers 301
10.5.4 Periodicity and modulation 303
10.5.5 Stage canopies 305
10.6 Fractals 307
10.6.1 Fourier synthesis 308
10.6.2 Step function addition 309
10.7 Summary 311
10.8 References 311
11 Hybrid surfaces 313
11.1 Planar hybrid surface 313
11.2 Curved hybrid surface 314
11.3 Simple theory 316
11.4 Number sequences 318
11.4.1 One-dimensional sequences 318
11.4.2 Two-dimensional sequences 324
11.5 Designing curved hybrid surfaces 324
11.6 Absorption 324
11.7 Accuracy of simple theories 327
11.8 Diffuse reflections 330
xii Contents
11.9 Boundary element modelling 332
11.10 Summary 333
11.11 References 334
12 Absorbers and diffusers in rooms and geometric models 335
12.1 Absorption coefficients: from free field to random
incidence 335
12.2 From the reverberation chamber absorption
coefficients to room predictions 338
12.3 Absorption in geometric room acoustic models 339
12.4 Diffuse reflections in geometric room acoustic
models 343
12.4.1 Ray re-direction 345
12.4.2 Transition order using particle tracing 345
12.4.3 Diffuse energy decays with the reverberation
time of the hall 346
12.4.4 Radiosity and radiant exchange 346
12.4.5 Early sound field wave model 346
12.4.6 Distributing the diffuse energy 346
12.4.7 Scattering coefficients 349
12.5 Summary 352
12.6 References 352
13 Active absorption and diffusion 355
13.1 Some principles of active control 356
13.2 An example active impedance system and
a general overview 359
13.3 Active absorption in ducts 361
13.4 Active absorption in three dimensions 362
13.4.1 Low frequency modal control – example
results 364
13.4.2 Low frequency modal control – alternative
control regime 365
13.5 Hybrid active–passive absorption 368
13.6 Active diffusers 371



Here is one excerpt from this book.


8 Prediction of scattering

To enable the design and characterization of a diffusing surface, it is necessary to be
able to predict the reflected pressure from the surface. Currently, this is usually done
by considering the scattering from the surface in isolation of other objects and
boundaries. The prediction techniques could also be used as part of a whole space
prediction algorithm, where all surfaces in a room are simultaneously modelled. At
the moment, however, long computation times and storage limitations mean that
whole space prediction algorithms are forced to use relatively crude representations of
the actual scattering processes. Consequently, when predicting the responses in rooms
and semi-enclosed spaces such as street canyons or pavilions, it is more common to
use geometric models. The issue of modelling scattering in geometric models is
discussed in Chapter 12.

Therefore, the issue for this chapter is predicting the scattering from isolated
surfaces. There is a range of choices of models, from the numerically exact but
computationally slow, to the approximate but fast models. The prediction methods
can also be differentiated as either time or frequency domain models. In diffuser
design, frequency domain methods have dominated the development of the modern
diffuser. For this reason, this chapter will concentrate on these methods. Table 8.1
summarizes the prediction models which will be considered in this chapter, along with
their key characteristics.

The next section will start with the most accurate model, a boundary element
method (BEM) based on the Helmholtz–Kirchhoff integral equation. It will then be
demonstrated how the more approximate models can be derived from this integral
equation, and the relative merits and limitations of the techniques will be discussed.
To round off the chapter, an overview of less commonly used techniques will be given.


8.1 Boundary element methods

When BEMs are applied to diffusers, remarkable accuracy is achieved. The accuracy
is much better than most acousticians are used to achieving from an acoustics theory.

Acousticians are used to using empirical fixes to make measurement match predic-
tion, but that is not often needed when BEMs are used to predict diffuser scattering.
The only real disadvantages of BEMs are that the method is prone to human error in
meshing the surface, and most importantly, it is slow for high frequencies and large
surfaces. Some have attempted to apply the prediction methods to whole rooms for
low frequencies, but this is very computationally intense, requiring super computing
facilities or a considerable amount of patience while waiting for results.




Here is another excerpt from this book.

11.1 Planar hybrid surface



The binary amplitude diffsorber, also known as a BAD panel, is a flat hybrid
surface having both absorbing and diffusing abilities. The panel simultaneously provides
sound diffusion at high and mid-band frequencies, and crosses over to absorption below
some cut-off frequency.

Figure 11.1 shows a typical construction. Mineral wool is faced
with a complex perforated mask, and the panel is fabric wrapped for appearance. The
white patches on the mask are holes, and the black patches hard reflecting surfaces.
Figure 11.2 shows the random incidence absorption coefficient for a hybrid surface
compared to the mineral wool alone, the effect of changing the backing depth is also
shown.

The additional vibrating mass within the holes of the mask causes the absorption
curve to shift down in frequency generating additional low to mid-frequency absorp-
tion.

At high frequency, the hard parts of the mask reflect some of the sound, preventing
absorption happening in some parts of the mineral wool, and so causing the absorption
coefficient to reduce. It is at these high frequencies, where the absorption is reduced, that
the surface should start to generate significant amounts of diffuse reflections.


To accomplish mid- to high frequency dispersion, a 31 by 33 2D array of absorptive and reflective areas is used.

The reflective areas map to the 1 bit and the absorptive areas map to the 0 bit in a binary pseudorandom number sequence.

The distribution of these binary elements is based on an optimal binary sequence with a flat power spectrum as this maximizes dispersion.

For example, this could be based on an maximum length sequences.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 07/31/24 at 05:16:50

Another excerpt from the book above:


11.3 Simplest theory


In this section, a discussion of the design of hybrid surfaces using the simplest Fourier
theory will be given. As with Schroeder diffusers, much can be learned by considering the
simplest construct, but ultimately, more exact theories will be necessary to match
the experiment. Consider a simple Fourier theory as discussed in Chapter 8, and for simplicity consider a 2D world so that predictions in one plane only are considered. The
pressure amplitude, |ps |, reflected from a planar, variable impedance surface is given by:



where and y are the angles of incidence and reflection, R(x) the surface reflection
factor a distance x along the surface, k the wave number, A a constant, and s the
diffuser surface.

This is an approximate far field theory, which forms the basis of the hybrid surface
design. This simple prediction theory and the subsequent design process are only
applicable at mid- to high frequencies. At low frequencies, the mutual interactions
across the surface make the prediction model inaccurate, as shall be discussed later.
Equation 11.1 is a Fourier transform in kx and transforms the reflection factors into
[sin(y) þ sin( )] space. To a first approximation, the absorptive parts of the hybrid
surface will have a reflection factor of R(x) ¼ 0 and the reflective parts have R(x) ¼ 1.


A pseudorandom number sequence with good autocorrelation properties is used
to determine the spatial distribution of the hard and soft patches.

For example, the
number sequence mightbe {0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0}, and
where there is a 1 in the sequence a patch of absorption is used, where this is a 0 in the
sequence the surface is reflective.

Figure 11.6 illustrates a surface where the impe-dance variation is in one plane only, and the strips of absorption or reflection are
extruded in one direction. Surfaces which scatter hemispherically, such as those shown
in Figure 11.1, are formed from number sequence arrays. The number sequence
arrays are formed by applying a folding technique to a 1D sequence. Schroeder named
the folding technique the Chinese remainder theorem [3] after a famous mathematical
problem involving modular arithmetic. This is discussed in Section 11.4.2.

A number sequence with good autocorrelation properties will have a flat power
spectrum with respect to kx. This means the pressure amplitude scattered is constant
with respect to the transform variable [sin(y) þ sin( )], which means good dispersion
is generated in a polar response. If the surface is periodic, this will relate to grating
lobes all having the same level except for the zeroth order lobe, in many ways similar
to the theories behind Schroeder diffusers and discussed in Chapter 9.

Consequently, the choice of number sequence is crucial to obtaining diffuse reflections.

The initial development of this diffuser was carried out by Angus [4] who began by
looking at MLS. Maximum length sequences are a good starting point as they have
desirable Fourier properties. There are many other bipolar sequences which have flat
Fourier transforms, but MLS are the best documented and known. The issue of sequences
is discussed in more detail in the next section.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/17/24 at 04:57:11


The beginning stages for building the corner bass absorbers starts here with the basic shell.










































Shown here is the center brace which also acts as a separation divider for maintaining proper distance of the absorbent from the metal panel.

Note that a finger width of spacing is allowed for behind the metal.  It is critical to insure nothing touches the metal face.






All seams front and back must be sealed airtight in order for the spring action of the face plate to work properly. The sealant should be a flexible non hardening type.








Cardboard strips are stapled across the internal bracing for which to cradle the absorbent with proper distance from the front metal face. Ideally, there should be at least an inch of airspace maintained between the front face and the absorbent.











I needed one of my lower bass absorber units to be mobile for easy movement around the entry door. This unit is the only one needing wheels. All others just have rubber feet attached.

















The R13 fiberglass is loosely rolled up inside the chamber from bottom to top.  The backing paper is used to seal up the rear opening so that dangerous fiberglass particles do not become an airborne safety issue. The seams should be sealed with tape once the paper is secured to the unit.








This rear opening can be concealed with cloth if desired. This section goes into the room corners anyway, so it is not normally visible.





The units are ready to stack in the corners once they have a finish applied.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 08/18/24 at 18:21:35
Thanks for continuing this thread and allowing us to come along for the ride.

Great and valuable information embedded within. Really shows the DIY considerations and process steps.

Really glad the results are what you had hoped for. Not really a surprise though, with all the research and homework done to make it come to fruition. (not to mention the sweat equity!)

Anyway, hope the roofing project is coming along nicely and looking forward to the next installments.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/19/24 at 00:05:14
Hey mrchipster, no problem at all. I have been very busy, but I do find time to post here when I can. I have another down day today due to rain. So I will be adding content today. Next week is supposed to be good outdoors, so the work progress will continue starting monday morning.

I have half of this roof section completed and rain tested...no leaks!  I also had to take on the task of upgrading the wall sections with new vinyl siding where this roof joins the wall of the two story house section which I completed last year.  So this added considerably more work to my plans, but the upgrade and visual beauty makes it worth it. Brand new white siding with fresh insulation board behind it. It really makes a huge visual impact from the street view.

I have to replace the entire roof except for the rafters, so this is a major job.  I wish that all I had to do was re-shingle, as I would have had this entire job done by now.  Then the trigger valve on my nailing gun blew a seal while trying to install some new OSB paneling on the roof, so that cost me a delay, but the weather turned bad the next day anyway. I got the seal kit in one day on Amazon. That took me about 45 minutes to rebuild and test. The gun is like brand new again and ready for action.

I also have the task of installing all new insulation while access is available with the roof panels removed. I am installing R30 under this roof section to bring it up to code and help reduce utility costs.  Playing with rolls of fiberglass in an oven is really fun when the temps outside are in the mid nineties.

I am working on the section which extends over the kitchen area now, so there are vent pipes and things like that to work around when installing new OSB panels.  I will be very happy when this project is completed. I will also be content knowing that I have a new high quality roof which is built to last at least three decades as long as mother nature doesn't lay a tornado upon the house.  Like I said before, the reward for doing this myself allows me a huge amount of cash to buy fun things like audio equipment and music to enjoy, instead of paying someone else that I fail to trust for repairs that I can do myself, and know that it is done right.

It is pouring down heavy rain right now as I type this.  But I am not worried.

For future information posted here, this will be continued for a long time. I have many ideas, and new projects to create concerning audio.

I have recently purchased many HQ recordings which are mastered directly from the master tapes into the HDCD format.  These have made such a huge difference, taking my system to far greater levels of musical dynamics and clarity to such a high degree, that it is now difficult to play a normal mediocre version of a recording created for the general masses. It is so obvious what these studios were doing to these poorly made mastering jobs, even the one's that they hype up as "remastered", as they destroy them with the use of limiters/compression. Those offerings are like having a heavy blanket draped over the speakers compared to what is revealed by the well made recordings offered by these HDCD versions which do NOT degrade the dynamic range and purity of the master tapes as heard in the studio.  I will go into these comparisons on a very wide scale in the future.

I am extremely pleased at what I am getting from my system and room now by using properly recorded CD's which reveal music the way it was intended to be heard. The dynamics are explosive! I have low frequency content now that feels like I have a subsonic transducer under my couch. (I don't). The power of the kick drums and bass is so deep and clear that it really seems like I am sitting front row in a small club with live players.

The percussion is so realistic and powerful that when you close your eyes, you can easily imagine yourself in that type of setting.  I now know just how special my amp and my Q-force speakers really are together as one, now that I have superb quality recordings to play through this equipment.

It is so good, that I doubt another amp would make enough difference to justify the cost.  I won't need the Zrock3 for these recordings, and I would not recommend doing so.  As for standard recordings which are mass produced, then that is where this device will be needed. I seriously doubt that even the Zrock3 can make the standard grade recordings sound anywhere even near what a master recording reveals on a great system.

I will eventually have that device in my system to help those recordings sound better. I will then know what that answer will be by direct comparison and experience.

I have never heard anything this good, not even close to what I have now. This after hearing a great deal of expensive high end systems within much larger audio rooms acoustically treated to sound good.  After 50 years of following the HI-FI dream, I do have a bit of experience to know the difference. Too bad it took me most of my life to finally get to this point.

But you know what, it means nothing for me to say that. You HAVE to be part of this actual experience to really appreciate and understand where I am coming from at this point in time. All I can say is that talk is cheap, but proof is what makes everything completely lucid. I have that proof.


If you ever decide to pass through my area mrchipster, you are invited to spend a day listening in my audio room.  I think you just may be re-evaluating what is possible in the audio realm.  I do hope you can handle some intense decibels (CLEAN) along with having the feeling of kick drums beat at your chest, and the deep rhythm of bass notes penetrating your body for some long duration periods.

;D

(This system information will be revealed and discussed in part two of this audio journey. I will be going there very soon.)


My speakers are coupled with a custom sub for low frequency extension of the main system for very low frequency response. The Q-force speakers have very efficient ratings, so they do not require a huge amplifier to get the performance levels of huge solid state amps with less efficient speakers.

The only time I ever heard this level of visceral response from the low end was with huge class A mono block solid state amps which got as hot as an oven and still were not as impressive as what I have now.  The ToriMK3 is set to a volume level of approximately 40 percent to reach this level!  That is really impressive when you consider the fact that not only the main speakers are being driven by this amp, but also the subwoofer unit as well!  That unit uses twin push-pull 12 inch woofers.  The main speakers are 90 dB efficient at 40 Hz! They are stable at 93 dB across the response curve with the exception of 1 kHZ, where there is a 3 dB dip to subdue the harsh factor for which the nasal sounding 1 kHz frequency produces. Music sounds much smoother when this is done. They extend down to 27 Hz with considerable efficiency to 30 Hz. Of course, the auxiliary bass extension boosts that level to compensate for an overall well balanced flat frequency spectrum. Everything sounds equally balanced in sound level.

When I designed these speakers, extreme care went into the quality factor for which to match the performance of the Tori amp and it's power rating. I have no doubt that I was successful at doing so.

One of my design requirements were that of high efficiency and flat response, so that all instruments were revealed at the same level of perception. I wanted to insure that the shimmer of cymbals, and the most intricate details which are revealed within the layers of music are heard clearly, and equally as pronounced as the powerful realism of a kick drum. The frequency response of my speakers maintain a close tolerance of  3 dB deviation from 40 Hz to beyond 20 kHz. That is as close to perfection as one can hope to get. This is why these speakers sound so incredibly good.

This accomplishment was not by luck. It took a huge amount of effort and engineering to accomplish this goal.  It is after hearing these master recordings that I now know just how great these speaker designs really are. The same goes for understanding just how great the quality of the ToriMK3 really is when all things are factored in with the utmost of quality perfection instilled.  I will tell you this, it all starts with the quality of the recording and goes from there. Everything else is limited to that restraint. Just as you can't revive the dead, nothing will ever make a bad recording sound good like a master recording. Only then will you know just how good your system really is.

If the Zrock3 does not improve these mediocre standard recordings to anywhere close to what I get from a properly mastered HDCD or K2 mastered version, then I might as well just throw those recordings in the trash, because they do nothing for me but get me upset at the mastering engineer, and the record companies who mass produced such garbage!  I hope this device improves the lesser grade recordings to a point where I can enjoy them to at least a reasonable degree compared to the HQ offerings.  Those mainstream overly compressed, limited CD's sound so dull and uninteresting now.  This really has been an enlightenment in music quality variance.

The best way I can explain this to form a relative idea as to what is missing is this example. Take a scale with ten points. Each represents the musical scale from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. The original master was recorded most likely outside of that range into the extension beyond human hearing. So the information exists on the original studio master.


 Now, slice off the bottom 30 percent, and also the top 20 percent (perhaps even more), and that is what you have left on most standard mediocre CD's that are on the market. Not to mention the subpar recording quality that went into that pathetic offering. The dynamics are very limited, the mid-range has no body, the depth of detail is missing, and the overall perception likens to FM radio versus a very expensive vinyl system. What you have left is okay for the masses who really don't care about bass extension or fine detail within the music, for which their systems most likely aren't capable of producing anyway.  When you play these on a HQ system, the difference is huge and very obvious.

I guess this would be like going from a regular car to driving an expensive luxury class offering, then trying to enjoy the ride in that old basic car again.   It will ruin you once you become aware of the difference.


I wasn't going to get into that yet, but with the recent experiences in this audio room, I felt compelled to express it as it has made a huge impact on my perception of what is possible in audio. Too bad I can only share this experience with words. It does no justice at all to the reality of this complexity, as to what an actual listening experience would convey.

I just revealed an insight to the future of this thread and where it is going. So you get an idea of the change that's about to come in part two. Let's just pretend that I didn't mention any of this yet and continue with the track I was on. I will take you through the first phase of this audio experiment and give you my impressions of that outcome.  Then I will move on to part two and touch upon this with far greater extent. This whole process is about discovery. I took things to the extreme so I would not look back and wonder ...what if?

And now I have found what I was searching for, and life is on the right track!

So for now, I will continue the direction I was going and see where this goes.

Hope your audio experience is as good for you as mine has been for me!


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/19/24 at 01:30:59

So here are the finished diaphragmatic corner bass absorbers shown in place around the room. You will notice that I provided an airspace behind the units at each sector of the wall. If you fail to do this, the performance of the unit will suffer.



























That concludes the poly cylindrical diaphragmatic corner bass absorbers. It is time now to move on to the next part of this audio room build.


I will be showing you the build detail of the sidewall binary diffuser/absorber units which are a comprised  quad array of B.A.D. panels arranged in a standard/inverted group within a curved structure for improved field scattering response and improved lobing reduction from the array. These are EXACT replicas of the RPG B.A.D. panels. (Binary Amplitude Diffuser)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/19/24 at 01:49:58



A quad array of these sequences arranged with inverted implementation is what you will see with my finished product. The performance factor of these units goes up by a large degree with the arrangement built into a curved setting.


The next images show these units from raw form to the finished product.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/19/24 at 03:19:16

This is a completed quad array within it's curved frame. I built these using .5 inch square ceiling grids which are perfect for this use. I built a jig to cut precise half inch cubes made from MDF to place into each square as required by the number sequence. These are glued in place to prevent falling out.











These units required legs to stand on which would be stable and solid. The units need to be placed a few inches from the walls, and the leg supports must accommodate that. These are well balanced to prevent tip-over.









You see the rear of the units after layering with ROXUL rock-wool insulation as the absorbent. It is absolutely necessary for an airspace to be provided between the back of these units and the wall for maximum performance.





This unit is complete with a full wrap of cotton muslin material for aesthetics. Normally, the grid is not this transparent in normal light. The image has been enhanced to see it more clearly behind the covering.























These can be positioned anywhere within the room as needed. A bit of experimentation with placement will yield best results along the side wall. These are very good for correcting first order reflections. They make a noticeable difference depending upon where you place them. Diffuse reflections, that is the focal point. These units are purpose designed to increase the perceived sound-stage of the room. This is a major factor for which to make the space around you seem to be much larger than what it really is. The room just seems to disappear as a result.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/19/24 at 04:52:33
I will make a quick focus upon the device I designed and built to reduce the HVAC noise coming from the return register on the floor. If you want room air conditioning and complete silence, then this is what you need to get that job done. This has internal airflow guides which reduce the turbulence of the incoming airflow. This acts like a muffler, reducing the noise to a minimum while allowing the airflow to pass through into the room.





























The bottom has a seal around the opening. Simply place this unit against the wall directly over the register on the floor.


And there you have it. A quick and easy solution to reducing HVAC noise.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 08/20/24 at 11:27:44
RPS,

Damn it! You got me thinking of moving my equipment back up to the family room just to implement some of your treatment and bring in natural light leaving the Charoit as a home theater experence.

My 40 year shingles are 26 years old. Is there a parallelism here?

Very interesting indeed.

Best!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/27/24 at 21:32:27
Hey JB,

What can I say? I just don't want to be responsible for having your family upset at you for moving them out of that family room!

;D

You know what, life is too short to hold back. Do what motivates you and the rest will work itself out. We have to shoot for the best possible experiences we can get. That is what makes the difference in the quality of living which we enjoy.


The funny thing about "parallelisms" is that the human race seems to share so many of them, just perhaps in a shade or two of difference which makes every experience unique.

 All I can say concerning your shingles is that I hope yours last for many more years without any problems.  It costs a fortune to re-shingle a house these days.  And of course, it is so much fun to do this job yourself...really is something you don't want to deal with.

For me, I had the original plywood sheathing panels which were installed when the house was built in 1969.  From what I can gather, the last re-shingle job was around 1994.  These panels should have been replaced back then, but the homeowner was cheap and bypassed this. Now I have to deal with it.

Good thing the cost of these OSB panels have come back down to reasonable prices again.  I remember when for years they were around $8.00 per sheet. Then the corona virus struck, and the price rose on these to levels which exceeded $65.00 per sheet!  I was not about to pay that price and held out for the cost to return back to sanity.  At that price, just these panels alone would have cost me over $4,800.00!  Add at least three times that cost for labor if I paid a contractor to install them, and you can see just how stupid expensive things have become. This is why home values have skyrocketed in direct relation to building cost.  I was lucky enough pay as low as $13.00 per sheet, so that allowed me to pay cash and keep the cost limited to reasonable levels.

I also have the assurance that the job is done correctly to my standards as well as construction code requirements.  The standard method is to use four nails per shingle. I use the max recommendation of six nails to increase wind resistance factors and longevity. Of course using premium under-layment, and high quality architectural shingles makes all the difference as well.  I will be at least 95 years old by the time this roof needs redone again.  At that point, who the hell cares!  I know that I won't.

Quick question, unless this is misspelled, what exactly is the "charoit" that you mentioned?  From what I gather, the spelling of this reference would be "charoite" which refers to a "energetically protective stone, helping shield us from negative or disruptive forces". This is supposed to act as the third eye, awakening latent knowledge for which to enhance our predictive ability.

So unless you actually meant "chariot", then I have to wonder as to how you came up with this reference for your room? Or perhaps, there actually is another term spelled as "charoit".  I am just trying to clarify what we are actually referring to here.  Maybe an image of this could be conveyed to show this.

Maybe I am just being ignorant...LOL

I hope I have not lost my mental cognitive abilities yet...way too early for that stage!

:D














Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/27/24 at 23:50:10
Alright, it is time to resume this audio room transformation. We are getting very close to the end of this initial build for phase one of this project.

It is now time to start populating the holes in the wall with some drivers. It is just about time to fire up the amplifier for the first time since this project began.

I remember having all of these thoughts race through my mind as to what I may expect from my first listening session in this new environment. I rationalized that no matter what, the experience had to be at a much higher level than what I had before in this room. Of course the possibility of disappointment was a very probable situation, and I had to be prepared to accept that. I really wanted to go beyond that, and just experience something that simply takes me way above and beyond any expectations that I may have had about the end results.

So let's finish up here and see where it all led to when the truth revealed itself to me.


Starting with the bass section, there are four Visaton 10 inch drivers which are wired in series/parallel to increase efficiency while maintaining an 8 ohm load. I would have used only two of these drivers but the efficiency rating was not high enough without stepping up to a four driver configuration.  With only two drivers, the ohm rating would have dropped to 4 ohms. That would have created a higher stress level on the amplifier, so I wanted to keep things at 8 ohms anyway. I knew that bass cancellation was of primary concern here due to the proximity of null zones within the room. Again, this is all part of the discovery process and anything can be expected.






And now a view of the top section showing the Tang Band mid-range driver and the Swan high frequency driver. Everything is mounted as flush as possible to avoid diffraction artifacts.








A view from the backside of the wall inside of the sealed closet space.















So at this point, the system is all hooked up and ready for the first listening test.


Before I cover that, I will reveal the equipment used at this time.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/28/24 at 01:53:05
And now I will take the time to show you the details of my audio system used for this project.























Amplification duties provided by the fabulous performance of the ToriiMK3 driving a quad set of Mullard reissue El34 output power tubes.



I shall return next with a continuation of the equipment profile.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Donnie on 08/28/24 at 02:51:36
No use worrying about a Torii 3 having a hard time playing 4 ohm speakers.

I've been playing 4 ohm speakers for well over 10 years without a hiccup.

In fact, I believe I might have been playing some 2 ohm speakers for quite a while sometime in the past!

I do have one question, I gather that this project has already taken place in the past, that it isn't happening now in 2024?

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 08/28/24 at 15:28:52
Chariot is a pet nane given under the current circumstances when my listening room was conceived. Long story that was touched on in Flick's Charoit thread.

Believe it or not but my roof is sheeted with 1 1/2 " tongue and grove pine. Over kill for sure!

Check you PM that I sent in this forum. We should get together sometime!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/29/24 at 04:55:55
Chariot is a pet nane given under the current circumstances when my listening room was conceived. Long story that was touched on in Flick's Charoit thread.

I understand now.  


Believe it or not but my roof is sheeted with 1 1/2 " tongue and grove pine. Over kill for sure!

Man, that roof will never need replacement!

:o


Check you PM that I sent in this forum. We should get together sometime!

I replied to your PM. You are invited!  Perhaps you could share your experience here with the others when you return home if you ever do decide to make that trip.


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/29/24 at 05:23:22

Hey Donnie,

Yes, you are actually correct in the fact that this all started over four years ago. If I recall, I think that I actually began this room around 2018, so this goes back  even more than four years. I have been enjoying this audio room for some time now.

I did mention this on page two of this thread. You just didn't see it.


However, the way I look at it is this, this project in one way or another will always continue.  I will be going into the second phase of this project very soon. You will see some major changes after I discuss what the outcome of this initial stage ended up being.

I am just doing some story telling to show you what I did to get where I am at today.

And as for the load rating on the amp, yeah, no sweat, I never had any concern about that. Steve built these amps like military tanks. They will just about drive a dead short if pushed hard enough and still keep going without harm. Even the tubes are driven light duty by these designs, so it would take a great deal of punishment to ever "overdrive" my ToriiMK3 amp.

If you paid attention to what I wrote, I noted that this amp is driving both, my main speakers PLUS the subwoofer driving twin push-pull 12 inch woofers. The ToriiMK3 doesn't flinch for a split second. I am driving these speakers hard into some very intense decibel levels without ever exceeding the 40 percent mark on the volume. This amp drives bass like it was a huge solid state amp with plenty of reserve power! Anyone who thinks they need more power than what this brute can give out all day, needs to rethink their speaker choice.

Hey, I thought you were paying attention.

8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/29/24 at 05:45:55
So I did something a bit different today that turned out quite interesting.  I was going through my tube stash and it dawned upon me that I had a perfect set of expensive Phillips rectifiers which have been boxed up for over ten years in the closet.  I had purchased these for use in this amplifier and then decided to preserve them and use something else for everyday use.  These are highly sought after, and now carry a high price tag.

I decided to put these in the amp today and see how they perform in the ToriiMK3 with the current tube configuration.  I ended up having a very intense listening session which left me very satisfied to say the least!

I took photos of these rectifiers installed. I will be showing these images next.  I had actually almost forgotten that I had them.  It is too early to tell any improvement or difference over what the other rectifiers provided, as they are very hard to beat.  I do know that the low frequency response that I had tonight was simply remarkable!

This will lead to another comparison test which will be very extensive before I have any final conclusion about the outcome.  For now, I am leaving the Phillips rectifiers in.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/29/24 at 06:18:21


Here are the Philips rectifiers that I took out of my closet after ten years being boxed up.





I think that I found a good home for them.






























Not a bad discovery for the day!  I think they bring the "cool" factor of the amp up a few notches.


8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 08/29/24 at 21:33:42
Red Pill,

Thank you for the generous offer and invitation to hear your room/system. If my travels ever take me near your area, I'll be sure to ring you up. I mean, how could I pass up a great experience like that!

As far as your Zrock3 that you have on order, I think it will make a difference on lesser recording but not sure how much, since your system is already at a high level. The Zrock3 has a new toroidal transformer and de-couples the gain from the EQ circuit so should be improved over the Zrock2. I expect it to do a good job but only you'll know when you insert it into your chain. Please keep us posted on your results.

The Torii looks very cool with the Philips rectifiers. I'm using some early 1960's RCA rectifiers in my CSP3 and UFO25. I like them a lot but of course the hunt continues. I'd also like to try some Mullards in my various components. For now, I'm using some nice Amperex 6DJ8's (circa 1969) and like them as well but would also like to hear the difference a Mullard would make. It's kind of daunting with so many tubes in the chain of events! That's part of the journey though, right?

I may have missed it but what front end are you using? (TT, digital, tape). Is a pre-amp in the mix?
Anyway, when you get around to it, it would be cool to see/hear about the full compliment.

Thanks for keeping us posted.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/31/24 at 04:04:50
MC,

Yes, that would be a welcome idea. The distance between our locations is a bit far to consider normally. That definitely makes this difficult to happen. You do know though that if you ever do pass this way, then yes, make sure that you contact me and let me know. I will most certainly make sure that you get a good audition of this room.


As for the Zrock3 on order, yes, I assumed as such about the limitations of what to expect.  With properly mastered CD's, this unit is not necessary. The main reason I ordered it is to help improve the less than stellar mastering jobs that exist in mainstream recordings. For me, that accounts for at least 30 to 40 percent of my library. I have many of these CD's that I really like, but unfortunately, there are no improved versions of these that one can get.  So I can only hope that the Zrock3 will make these sound well enough to actually enjoy listening to these substandard discs.

I realize that no matter what, there is no magic here, as there are obviously limitations to the improvement. I certainly don't expect these to ever be on the level of a properly engineered HDCD.  So as long as I don't set my expectations too high, then I should be pleased with the results.

I ordered my unit with all upgrade options which will make a difference in sound quality. So at least I know that I am giving this the best chance possible.

I will most definitely be reviewing the Zrock3 with a great deal of comparison testing.  It is a bit difficult to convey differences in music, but I will do my best.  You know, very easy to "hear" the difference, very difficult to relate that experience in words.

This will be a future part of my story here. My perception of various recordings and what I notice as a result of my audio room acoustics compared to before I ever built this room.


When it comes to tube swapping/rolling, once I feel satisfied with my current configuration, I stick with it until I need to buy replacement tubes. Only then do I consider trying another tube set.  I know that once my power tubes need replaced, I am considering a set from Decware on the EL34's.  After talking with Steve about these, they sound very interesting.

I was very pleased with the rectifiers that were already in place. But you know, when you find something special like the Philips, it is too hard to resist trying them out for awhile. It is not like I am trying to find an improvement with tubes. I really like the way this amp performs with what I have now. As the saying goes, "never try to fix what isn't broken".


I will tell you this, if you can manage to get your hands on a set of these Mullard reissue power tubes, then by all means, you simply have to try them.

As you know, Mullard was originally a British product. They are now produced in Russia by New Sensor.

I am glad to see that Upscale Audio has these back in stock now. They were out for a long time. These are around $56.00 each. My amp requires a quad matched set.

My opinion of the Mullard reissue tubes is very positive!  I never heard the original British versions, so I can't compare the difference between the two.

I can tell you this, there is nothing lacking that would even remotely warrant trying something else.  I am curious about the EL34's that Decware sells, but I am so satisfied with the sound quality that these Mullards produce with this amp, that I may just reorder a set of them if they are still available.

I highly recommend them to anyone.  I am very sure that you won't be disappointed. What I hear is absolute clarity, very deep layered detail with a nice full bodied mid-range, and a very strong bottom end, and I mean tight and controlled. The highs are very revealing. Instrument separation and imaging are superb.  I simply can't find anything wrong with them.  I would have to say that these are without question, the finest set of tubes that I have used to date. For the price, you certainly can't go wrong with them.


I had used many old stock RCA rectifiers with my old ToriiMK2 amp. I also used old stock Philips and Sylvania as well. I tended to favor the ST style versions.  That amp used either KT77's or KT88's which I tried many different tube sets in that amp. I liked the sound of the KT77's, but always favored the KT88's in that amp. I remember buying two antique tube testers from the 50's so that I could check the quality factors of the tubes that I would get on Ebay.  Since then, I have steered away from tube rolling as it can be very expensive and a real pain to get involved with. Once I am satisfied, that is it.

That very much sums up the way I feel about dealing with high end vinyl as well.  I am very content with just a digital format now.  I spent so much money on reliving the vinyl era, that I feel stupid for wasting what I spent chasing that format. I enjoyed it very much, but I don't feel the hassle and cost factor justified dealing with it. And that is why we have choice.

I would love to get a set of those old stock Amperex signal tubes.  I think they would be worthwhile trying in this amp. I am currently using Electro Harmonix ES 6922 signal tubes. As a matter of fact, they are the only original tubes still in service which came with this amp from Decware 12 years ago.


You know, we all say one thing in the present, but this journey always continues, and with the continuum of time, everything is subject to change.  So in the future, we shall have to just wait and see how things unfold.

Now, since you brought it up, I just happen to be revealing the front end now. It may be modest, but I am extremely pleased with what I am using. I am not one to believe that something has to cost a fortune to be worthy, as that is merely snob appeal which I don't buy into. Superiority is not justified merely by the price tag. The right combination with the proper degree of synergy is what determines quality sound and satisfaction. As long as I am satisfied with what I have, It doesn't matter how others may judge it.  I used to think like that to some degree, and I have learned a great deal since those years have passed.

So nothing special compared to what many audiophiles will compare it with. But I can tell you this, listen without knowing what you are listening to, and you will be shocked to find out that what you are hearing is not one of those uber expensive units with gold lining.

The best approach is to concentrate on a high quality transport, and couple that to a well designed DAC stage. That is if digital is the format of choice.  That is the configuration that I have found to work very well for me.  The real difference is in the stability of the transport, the quality of the clock, and finally, the DAC chips in the output stage.  What I have has all of those things which are of high regard.  And I did not have to spend a fortune obtaining a front end which does justice to my system.  I do wish that I still had my Arcam Ring DAC, but that is in the past, time goes on.

And as for the tape option, oh how I miss my AKAI 747 reel to reel!  Just a shadow of the past once again.

As for a pre-amp, I have no need for one.  I keep my chain as short and simple as possible.  I used to have a Decware pre-amp years ago, but once again, lost in the shadows of time.

Sometimes you would be very surprised as to some of the hidden gems that are very inexpensive. If you like it, then it should not matter how much it cost.


Just my take on things. Your mileage may vary!


[smiley=beer.gif]
 

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 08/31/24 at 05:52:00


Just a few more images showing the tube sets that I am using now and what I have used in the past for this amplifier.









This is the current set of Electro-Harmonix 5U4GBEH rectifiers that I have been using in the ToriiMK3.





This is an old set of power tubes that I used before replacing them with the Mullard reissue EL34's.













You can see the extensive degree of isolation decoupling that went into the platforms for the amplifier and the source unit. I will be showing the source unit in the following post. There are multiple layers of isolation to control structure born resonance from entering the equipment to an absolute minimum.  There are two types of detrimental vibration which degrade the sound quality of the equipment in the room. Those are airborne, and structural. The airborne type will have to be dealt with in another manner. But my focus here is to control the physical disturbance of structural infiltration. It starts with custom feet which are constructed of cork and rubber. The next layer is that of the enclosure of the base. this phase works by using a formation of pressurized tennis balls with a MDF shelf which loosely floats on top of them. This shelf does not touch the base platform in any way. The next degree of isolation comes from the oversize silicone feet between the amp and the shelf it rests on. That makes three independent stages of vibration controlling isolation on the path from the floor to the amplifier for maximum protection.

People underestimate just how degrading the influence of vibration is to the sound quality of the audio system. When it comes to high quality ultra revealing audio equipment such as the ToriiMK3, then this most definitely makes a difference and is quite audible. If you don't believe me, just look up the testing that Steve did on this website concerning this phenomena.  He provides all of the proof needed to make a believer out of you. It is actually shocking to see just how bad this influence really is. It should NOT be overlooked!

It is clearly proven that this affects not only the sensitive vacuum tubes, but the transformers as well. And it doesn't stop there, but those are two areas that you don't want tainted by vibration. You should really go check out his lab results to show you what this really does to the equipment.

I took this isolation procedure to an even higher level of control with the digital source unit.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/01/24 at 01:56:29
Moving on, the next images cover the digital front end and the vibration isolation platform which I built for it.


The Tascam CD-200BT uses the high end TEAC CD-5020A transport which is used widely in many high end players costing thousands of dollars. This alone is what makes the Tascam unit a great starting point for a top notch digital front end. The precision clock used in this player is another reason for choosing this unit. Since this player has a direct optical out for an outboard DAC, this makes the perfect setup when your choice is to use a higher end DAC than what is inside of the Tascam.

 In my opinion, this Tascam player sounds very pleasing without the external DAC, but this is where an external DAC will take things up a few notches when the performance gain per dollar spent ratio really matters.  My main interest is just that, using this player as a solid transport system, while bypassing it's internal circuitry in favor of upgrading to a higher quality DAC by means of the optical out. The choice of Opamps used will actually voice the sound signature of this system.   The DAC unit I chose uses the highly favored Burr-Brown OPA627 output stage chips. This DAC has the option of swapping out Opamp chips like you would do with tube rolling.

My focus is to get the quality of a high end player without paying the high end price.  By focusing on the key points which make a great sounding player, this is very possible to accomplish.  I have no desire to go beyond this setup because I am completely satisfied with the resulting performance. Beyond this, the point of diminishing returns on investment would really become pointless as far as I am concerned.







I built the platform out of African Padauk wood with thick acrylic shelves. Decoupling spikes are used to restrict the transfer of vibration from one layer to the next. There are actually four stages of decoupling and isolation used in this platform. First are the feet constructed out of cork and rubber. The second stage is that of the pressurized tennis balls inside of the structure. The bottom section of the platform starts with 1/2 inch MDF. There are dimples machined into the bottom section just large enough to keep the tennis balls from moving. The acrylic shelves do NOT touch the platform structure at ALL.  They simply float on top of the balls which remain stable with the dimples.

The double layer acrylic shelves have the metal decoupling spikes between them, and then finally, there are silicon feet between the CD player and the top shelf. All of this greatly reduces the transfer of structural vibration from the floor up into the sensitive transport.











This image shows just the lower shelf in place before placing the top shelf above it with the isolation decoupling spikes.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/01/24 at 03:26:56

Here are the stock specifications for the Tascam CD-200BT player.


















The DAC I chose to use is actually a well known unit among the audio forums. The original version of this DAC was popular many years ago but that unit had certain fail points which were common. The headphone section was not as good as it should have been, but I don't use that anyway. The latter version is called the 09 Version.  There were many upgrades done to this unit in the 09 Version as well.

This is the ZERO DAC, 24 bit 192 kHz dual D/A converter equipped with Burr-Brown OPA627 chips.





ZERO 24/192kHz DAC headphone amplifier USB_OPA627

*Independent circuit for D/A converter.

*Enlarged heat sinks by 30 percent over original model.

* Upgraded power supply designed to eliminate static disturbance.

*Supports maximum of 24 bit/192 kHz input.

*Independent digital optical fiber input.

*Opamps are designed to be easily interchangeable.

*Delayed turn on/off function.

*Double faced (cuprum on one side and foil on the other) circuit board
which has been upgraded to a thicker higher quality version.

*Receiving chip: CS8416

*Decoding chip: AD1852

* Opamp chip: OPA627

*S/N ratio: 105 dB

*Distortion: 0.0005 percent

*Dynamic range:117 dB

*Frequency response: 20 Hz-30kHz

*Output frequency: 2V

*Input: optical / coaxial

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/06/24 at 03:48:55

Listening  Evaluation of Stage one: The Inwall Speaker Baffle Array.


All right, the moment has come to find out if all of this work is going to be worthwhile.

As I stated before, I expect that there may be an issue with bass cancellation due to the placement of the bass drivers.

A positive gain which I expect to hear due to the flush mounting within the wall baffle is better imaging, and clarity of  instrument detail due to the reduction of  Speaker Boundary Interference Response, and first order reflections.

This after all was the main objective for creating this huge baffle wall array. The speakers are placed in a fashion in which my seated position is exactly between them, with the direct focal point of the midrange and high frequency driver to be aiming straight past my head just a few inches from each ear.

Of course, one critical factor within the seating position is that there will always be nodes and anti nodes within the room. If you sit in one of these hot spots which either cancel bass almost completely, or act to over accentuate the bass (peaks and nulls), you are being influenced by the affect of standing waves. No matter how well a room is treated, especially a small room, there is always going to be this condition to some degree.  Ultimately, your goal is to avoid one of these hot spots, and find something more neutral which actually supports quality  bass response.

There is something referred to as the " 38 percent rule". The purpose of this is to theoretically place you in the best spot possible within the room for optimal music perception.  This was developed by a well known studio designer by the name of  Wes Lachot.  This is designed for rectangular rooms based upon the assumption that the room has proper acoustical treatment, and that the speakers are flush mounted or mounted within a soffit.

The way this works is to calculate the room length. Then place a mark exactly 38 percent aft of the front wall. It is important that you are centered between the side walls. This will be the first location that you should try listening at. Remember, you have to experiment, and try different positions to find the ideal spot within your room.

Theoretically, this should be the best spot within the room for optimal listening. The alternative is to apply this calculation from the rear wall, which places you farther back from the speakers. By doing so, you do place yourself within a zone which has stronger reflections, which in turn, the back of the room presents a higher degree of peaks and nulls which you want to avoid.

The worst possible points within your room would be sitting at either 25 percent, or 50 percent of the rooms length.  Your bass response would simply be void, and the music will be dull. There are very heavy cancellations going on at these two points due to first and second order axial room modes. Stay away from the rear wall, as sitting close to it will have highly exaggerated bloated bass. This area should be avoided. The 38 percent calculation should give you the flattest low frequency response possible in your room.

One thing to consider as to whether you should choose sitting at the 38 percent position from the front wall versus the back wall is the following.  If you are going to use quadratic diffusers at the back of the room, you need to factor in that these require a minimum of ten feet for them to be effective at your listening position.  With binary diffusion systems, this is reduced to only three feet!  This again makes binary diffusion more practical and effective in a small room. In any case, the 38 percent position from the back wall will be the second most optimal position in theory.  This is where experimentation comes into play, and you must decide which way works best for you. Sometimes compromise is necessary, so there has to be a focus upon balance within the room in order to get satisfactory results no matter which position is chosen.

Now, back to the layout of the full size speaker baffle wall with speakers placed in close proximity.

The goal is to attempt a similar result as what binaural sound systems offer using methods which capture sound the way it is really heard in real life.  The objective is to remove or displace the interference that speakers produce which tarnish reproduced sound in common stereo.  The only way to truly remove this phenomenon from stereo listening is to use binaural recordings with the speakers set up in a special manner of close proximity and direct focus upon the listeners ears.  This is usually accomplished with special equipment designed to counter ( binaural cross-talk ) which causes this ear-brain confusion in stereo playback.  This anomaly does not exist in real time as you would hear in nature.

This confusion causes your perception of sound focus around you to be reduced and compressed as if it were placed in a box displayed before your eyes.  Gone would be the natural sound-stage which normally expands freely around you in a 360 degree fashion. The three dimensional focus that you perceive in nature is no longer there, just a narrow field which now simply becomes two directional, and unnatural.

Let me ask you this fact. When you stand outside and just listen to the sounds being created all around you, what do you hear?

 Better yet, just how do you PERCEIVE the sounds which you hear?

Unless you have something wrong with your hearing, everything should naturally be well focused in a non restrictive three dimensional manner. Without question or restraint, this natural perception of reality is absolutely effortless to perceive correctly, just exactly as it is presented.  If there is a train five miles away coming from the southwest, then your ear-brain system should naturally perceive it that way. At the same moment in time, you hear several birds high within the trees above you off to the right thirty feet away. You have no problem perceiving that information, just like the moving cars which are passing down the street from one direction to another. Perhaps you have detected a high flying jet streaking across the sky behind you, knowing that it is far away, yet moving at a high rate of speed. And with all of that going on, you still manage to focus clearly upon a conversation which is taking place by two people standing on a balcony three stories above  your location.

This is the way we clearly perceive natural sounds around us everyday.

Now, let's examine this same type of perception if we were to record all of this natural sound the way we heard it in real time,and then try to reproduce it in your room with a pair of stereo speakers. What do you suppose the result will be?  You guessed it, a total collapse of the natural effect which you perceived within natural elements. Everything that you heard clearly  with a 360 degree soundfield is now reduced to a narrow compressed version which seems to be coming from one general area, that being your speakers.

As I said, this phenomenon only exists through the playback of speakers within a room. This happens due to cross contamination of signals from one speaker to the other  known as "cross-talk". Remove this "cross-talk", and suddenly the natural perception of this recording should be perceived as if you were standing outside again when it was recorded.

Everything has returned to normal, and everything sounds real!

Again, let me ask you this. Do you suppose the exact same result just may be possible with recorded music?  Logic should tell you that the answer to this is highly probable. This scenario should help you to understand the reality of this problem, and what the effect of it is doing to your perception of music within your room.

This is even worse when the speakers are angled as a triangle, Having each speaker cross behind your head and reflecting off to the rear, opposite of the side where the direct sound came from.  Without proper acoustical treatment used in order to keep this under control, a plain room with bare walls is going to be a total disaster for good quality sound perception to be agreeable within your hearing.  There are already unwanted stray phantom signals working to confuse your perception of music the way it should really be perceived.  Spreading the speakers apart even farther, and at too much of an angled direction, will only act to make this condition even worse.

I have known this for decades. Yet my search goes on in order to correct this situation for which overcoming this seems to be a virtual impossibility! It is my main focus of discovery, and where I am at today is yet another attempt to overcome the horrible negative impact which interaural crosstalk does to quality music listening.

I am not interested in the special equipment used to combat this problem. I believe there are alternative methods which are of course never going to be just as effective in eliminating this problem as the devices are at doing so. Yet, as a compromise, my focus is to use the equipment that I have, and find a midway point where even though I may not completely eliminate the crosstalk, I still will find a solution which controls it to an acceptable manner. With that, I will be satisfied.

I will tell you this, and many who have set up their rooms professionally with proper acoustic treatment know this as a rule, the very first thing that should be done to help expand the soundstage in order to make the room disappear, is to control first order reflections from your side walls. That alone makes a huge difference within your perception of time and space.

And of course, it just gets more complex from there.

But you know what, each time that you take another step with acoustical correction, you are getting that much closer to the reality of what unravels within the multitude of layers recorded in your music.  BTW, have you discovered those layers yet? You may look through dirty glass, clean glass, or NO glass at all. You know which choice is the best.


So, with that said, let's examine my results.

I have a disclaimer which I now know had affected the outcome of this original inwall baffle system test. That being at the time of testing, I had a problem with the amplifier which was causing distortion and drifting within the music at different times in an erratic manner.  I could not figure out what was causing this. The amp would produce loud pops and crackling noise when the volume control was used.

I had swapped sets of tubes, made sure all connections were good, and whatever else that I could possibly rule out as the culprit. This situation had already been a factor since before I made any changes to the room.  Most of the time, it would seem fine, but I knew something wasn't right with this amplifier.  No, I was not about to send it back to Decware as long as it remained playable. I did not want to be without the amp for an extensive period of time, and the cost of shipping it back and forth would have been very costly.

I remember being upset at this amp, thinking I made a big mistake buying it.  I was very dissatisfied concerning this situation to say the least.

So I am sure that the condition which tainted the sound quality of this amp had a major effect upon the outcome. Too bad I had not yet corrected the problem until after I decided a change in speaker format was warranted. I believe now that the outcome would have been better had this problem never existed. Come to find out, that problem was creating distortion within the music and this amp was not performing the way it should have been.  I was convinced that a bad tube was the problem, but after more than one change, that was quickly ruled out.

Again, this corrective procedure did not take place until a few months ago, long after I made a change into phase two of this project. The test results for phase one were tainted, but it is too late now to do that evaluation again.  I really think my perception of that outcome would have been much better had the amp performed then, like it does now.  Life can throw us a curve ball at the worst time.

The amp has a decade of use on it, but not so old that corrosion or contamination should be a factor, at least I did not believe it was.

Well, long story short, and another lesson on not overlooking the obvious to a simple problem.

I recently ordered a can of DEOXIT 5 fader control cleaner, and a can of DEOXIT gold lubricant.

All tubes were removed and I opened up the amp to expose the volume pot. Even though you can't see any visual form of contamination, it is there.


I will continue this in a moment.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/06/24 at 04:16:03

Before, the volume knob felt as though something was off about it. So naturally, since this popping noise and drifting distortion was in direct relation to the volume knob, I focused there as to the most likely source of noise.  There are several open slits around the volume pot. As I turned the knob back and forth full swing repeatedly, I sprayed the DEOXIT 5 fader control cleaner into all of these open areas that I could. I did this several times until I could feel the knob becoming less resistive and very smooth.  I finished that with the DEOXIT Gold lubricant.

I then treated all other controls the same way before putting the amp back into the chassis.

Then I took a dental brush (not a toothbrush, but the type that is straight with bristles for inserting between your teeth like floss) which just happens to be perfect for this task, and cleaned out every tube socket using the same treatment.

Finally, I used fine Emory cloth and carefully polished the corrosion(simply appears as dark stains) from each and every tube pin that goes into this amplifier.  Those pins were then cleaned and treated with the DEOXIT.  This was late at night and all I wanted to do was check the amp after turning it on to see if there was any improvement to the problem.

Also, every connection and cable end was treated the same way. So the entire signal path of this system was properly serviced.

The audio God's have blessed my amp.  THE VOLUME CONTROL NOISE WAS NOW GONE! The action of the knob became very smooth and completely silent with no music playing.  Turned all the way to maximum, and it was as if the amp was not even on. Finally, things seem to be right.

Well, crazy as things happen in audio, I was in order for a very big surprise which kept me at full attention for the next couple of hours. I didn't quite get to bed as early as I intended. Funny how that happens! My whole perception of this amplifier completely changed within an instant! It was as though I had just purchased a newer higher quality amplifier, one which I felt I should have been hearing with this amp all along.  

Remember this, when I had listened to this amp in the past being much newer, I did not have a good room to hear it in, and the speakers I was using were not really very good, nothing like the ones I have today.  So back then, I am sure the amp sounded great, but my room condition and system were not good enough to reveal the natural quality I should have heard.

I was starting over trying to build a new audio system, and the amp came first.  That was over 12 years ago.  I no longer had any of my previous audio gear, my huge collection of high priced vinyl, or even my collection of digital recordings.  So by the time I actually got this room built and I had a great system to use this amp with, the problem had become a nuisance.

Anyway, back to the initial test after cleaning the amplifier connections.  I grabbed the closest CD that I could reach for and put a disc of the Eagles into the player.  ( the mastering done on that CD was very good, with excellent dynamics and clarity)

Mind you, the amp was stone COLD, not on for more than five minutes, the other equipment was just turned on and the speakers had not been played that evening at all. So nothing was warmed up to optimal operating temperature for the best sounding playback.

Of course I wasn't going to actually listen to the music, I just needed verification that the cleaning did it's job effectively.

I hit play and just sat there almost dazed at what I was hearing, and that is with a COLD amp!  The room is instantly filled with the smooth dynamic sound of Hotel California.

I am hearing this with my Qforce speakers which are my reference grade models.

The soundstage actually became wider and taller. There was a newfound clarity, effortlessly revealing detail that had me stunned. There was a significant extension to the bass now, highly detailed and very tight. Everything just sounded so much better, to the point where I couldn't believe I was listening to the same amplifier.  I could not stop listening because the sound was so satisfying, nothing like I had heard before. I believe that corrosion on the tube pins was a major factor here, but the sum of all things done within made the difference overall.  That dirty volume control was really a factor.

Naturally, I became deeply focused upon what I am now experiencing, and I just could not stop playing the music. When that disc was done, I needed to hear more!  By this time, the equipment is warmed up and at it's best.  Let me tell you, there was much more missing from this amp which eluded me over time.  I was only wanting to correct the dirty volume control which was causing the noise in the amplifier.  This cleaning treatment did far more than that, in ways I never expected.  If I had not experienced this firsthand, I would have never believed that much of an improvement would have been possible.

I went from being extremely happy at my newfound experience, to being very upset that I had been using an amplifier with sound quality this degrading all of this time.  I had some rather unsavory thoughts about this whole situation.  But I went to bed, and the next day I was just happy to find the solution to this problem. And I didn't have to send it back to Decware to get it corrected.  Cost me around $40.00 for the treatment and a bit of time, and that is all it took.  This goes to show how important periodic cleaning and maintenance is to this or any other amplifier, especially if it is valve based.

So I apologize for never being able to give you an accurate evaluation of the inwall system. But I still found the outcome very favorable considering the situation.

Now, it has been awhile, so let me try to recall my impressions of that setup.

I initially tried using the 38 percent factor from the front wall.  Let me tell you, in a small room, that is a bit close to the front wall. Seemed a bit weird to me, but this is a fact finding mission, so that is irrelevant to the purpose.  I will confirm indeed that this 38 percent factor has some real merit to it.  I was initially very impressed by the frequency response sitting at this position. It really did seem to dial in the correct spot within the room. Out of curiosity, I experimented by moving the couch back and forth a few gradual movements along that center line. I could actually detect minute changes within the perception of the music. I am talking about very minute movements within an inch or two. When you have a quality system and a well designed audio room, these changes become easily recognized in a transparent way.

So I wanted to see just how bad it could get by getting closer to that center of evil, the halfway point of the room length. Listen, if you ever want to experience just how bad the effects of room modes are, just sit in the center of the room and see what happens.  You will think that either something is wrong with your system, or your recording is really, really BAD!  This is where the highest degree of cancellations are taking place due to standing waves. There is no bass, the music sounds thin, and frankly, you would not listen for more than 30 seconds. Now move back closer to that 38 percent mark, and like magic, suddenly everything just reappears and the music is great again.

So I degreed this placement in to where I felt it was the best.  And now it is time to do some serious listening.

I designed the crossover networks on Xsim using actual speaker measurement files. This software is superb, the slightest changes within the design are instantly shown in real time so that you can instantly see the effect your change has on the design.  The resulting frequency response of this system's network is about as flat as one can get with an array this complex considering the drivers used. So my thought was that this was off to a good start. If the room response acts anything like that of the speaker response data, then this should sound incredible,....at least on paper.  There are many factors which can make or break a system like this.

I also want to note that I mostly used standard production CD's for the listening tests. With the exception of a few, most were just good recordings that are mainstream productions.  Had I used well mastered HDCD versions, I am sure the results would have been dramatic by comparison.


I keep my eyes closed when listening so that my perception of the music is not influenced by what I see.

I set the volume control to approximately 30 percent.

I find that using the forward setting on the rear switches choosing between 16 ohms and 8 ohms is far superior with my speakers. I will assume the forward position is an 8 ohm load.  With this position, the bass response is much deeper and far more dynamic.

I am sitting at the exact center point, 38 percent of the room's length from the front wall. This places me at close range to the speaker drivers which is nearfield listening.

My initial impressions were something much different than I was accustomed, compared to using speaker enclosures placed within the room.

Actually, when we get used to hearing certain anomalies over time which are caused by things such as SBIR, then we grow to accept that this is what music should sound like from a set of speakers. (not to mention all of the deceptive things we were subjected to as a result of bad room acoustics in general)

Reasoning this factor, I knew that it would take time to readjust, and relearn my perception of music without that tainted factor as before.



To be continued shortly.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/06/24 at 04:35:49

So what  I am processing is a sound which is rather dry, yet very clear and highly detailed.  And yes, even with a wall that close in front of me, with my eyes closed, I was convinced of a setting many times larger than what my audio room really is.  The music did not come from the direction of the speakers. The music was alive within the room without restraint. I was experiencing a soundscape expansion which made me believe I was in a very large space.  There was no directional point source. You could not determine exactly where the sound was coming from.

 There was now a presence of holographic projection which made my perception of time and space much closer to reality as one hears in nature. What I did not like, was that the lower frequencies which I hoped to be strong, were indeed, nowhere near what I expect. On a positive note, the bass notes were very clear and well defined. There was none of that "one note bass" which is so common in untreated rooms. I was fascinated by the superb control in which the bass response provided. The more power fed into it, and the better it sounded. It was as if you could visualize the bass player in front of you, imagining each and every note as the player's fingers manipulate the strings, providing a new course of vibrato that is simply mesmerizing with how clean and detailed the progression of chords are as they unravel.  The perception of pitch is indeed solidly intact in a way that was never revealed this well before.

But, the level of dynamics were just not what I expect to feel. Visceral response is where the music takes on a life with physical involvement. I need to feel the music, as well as hear it for the full experience. Good music should provoke an emotional response in order to become truly involved within the music and its depth.  This factor is largely the core motivator for experiencing a strong degree of emotion as you connect to the music as one.


I had to advance the volume in order to get a reasonable sense of bass that I like. At that level, the decibel factor can be a bit harmful to one's hearing, so not wise for long term listening.. I did not feel that this level of amplification should be necessary to get a good low end response. I believe at that point, this amplifier was being pushed to its limits of output. The Visaton woofers that I used are not very efficient, so they did limit that situation to a large degree. They produce nice low end when given enough power, but that huge array of eight 10 inch woofers just did not meet my expectations overall. As I said before, there could have very well been some heavy bass cancellation going on as well.

After extensive listening, I decided to reverse the sitting arrangement and move backward to the 38 percent area from the BACK wall. This placed me about four feet from the rear wall binary/ternary diffusers. Now I am listening at far-field and things have changed in some aspects. I would not say that I noticed any bad changes to the sound quality, but as I recall, the bass extension seemed to be stronger and more even with the rest of the system response. My perception of space as how we gauge separation of instruments and position was somewhat different, perhaps a bit more restricted as a result of increased reflections which occur  at the back section of the room.  By dialing in the right placement of the sidewall diffusers, this does actually make a noticeable difference in tailoring the perceived width and depth of the soundstage.  With that readjusted, the balance of the room response became more natural, and focus became favorable.

As for high frequency response. Overall, the high frequency response had a very open and clean presence. I have used these same HiVi drivers in other designs with great results, so I am very familiar with their performance characteristics. There were details that center upon cymbals and high hats that was not as clear as I have heard in the past on some recordings. Something was a bit off and I knew it could be improved upon.

Now as for the lower midrange. I was not feeling that physical connection to  where percussion can have a strong impact upon your senses. Something seemed to be lacking. It became apparent that some changes will need to be made within the crossover networks. With some tailoring, I wanted to see if this could be improved to give the midrange more body.

So the next step is to completely disassemble the crossover networks and start from scratch with Xsim.  I came up with a revised design which should make a difference. This time, I upgraded to much higher quality parts. Very expensive close tolerance foil inductors were used along with 1 percent tolerance high grade capacitors and resistors.

I will show you those upgrades and then get back to the evaluation once the upgraded networks are in place.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 09/07/24 at 02:00:00
RPS
Your last three posts are profound. I have oftentimes thought that most of break-in of new equipment has more to do with breaking down contaminated films created when assembly takes place of components and final product. Your experience with aged components is real and the remedy should be performed by all who read those post for maximum potential. I really do not look forward to the maintenence needed on my system after 7 months of idle time.

I just ordered a Swiss Digital Fuse Box to eliminate the attendance need when fuses are bypassed with 4 gauge copper wire. Mark at Vera-Fi Audio offered a Graphene Sluggo at good discount with my order because of conflict with discount codes that were available. I declined and opted for a Piggy to save time in making up one. Why did I decline? There seems to be positive fanfare in this forum about those sluggos. I often wondered how those who opted for graphene install the graphene. Are they using some sort of barrier to eliminate contamination of skin oil deposits? Is skin oil creating the illusion of a difference?

Ahhh the journey continues!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/07/24 at 05:23:45

The updated version for rebuilding the new crossover networks.






































































So with the newly revised design with upgraded parts, it is time to reevaluate this system.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/07/24 at 05:41:18
I often wondered how those who opted for graphene install the graphene. Are they using some sort of barrier to eliminate contamination of skin oil deposits? Is skin oil creating the illusion of a difference?


This is all new to me. I can't relate to this without looking into it first. Perhaps I should investigate this situation and see if there may be anything to this. It never hurts to learn something new. If you keep pursuing this audio journey, you will always learn new things. The best way is through personal experience.

Perhaps the skin oil actually creates a microscopic barrier. It would be like a minute resistive layer which indeed alters the electrical function.  Makes me think of "foil in oil" capacitors. Just what is it about that oil?

I have learned that one cannot deny what they hear. When many back up that perception, then there has to be something to it.

Have another beer and things will become more clear!

[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/07/24 at 06:24:10
Sorry about the bad quality of the graphs. When I reduced the size for posting on this forum, it really degraded the image. Part of it was cut off. I will try to repost a better image if I can.


This graph represents the frequency response after the revision from 30 Hz to 20 kHz.















That came out a little better, but still not clear enough. That is the best I can upload. Hopefully, you can read the data and make sense of it.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 09/08/24 at 14:02:36
You all most lost me with that network. I can see no padding was used so some salvation is on the western horizon. Looking forward to a listening session!

As far as graphene goes, it is an excellent absorber of oil plus goes thru a bonding process in the creation of a Sluggo. I surely would not downplay anyone's preception of its use with placement in a cheap fuse holder as an improvement to their system. Just my POV.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/09/24 at 05:55:43
JB,

With X-sim, I get real world results instantly. It doesn't always sound as good in reality as it does on a graph, but then again, the sound system, room acoustics, and quality of recordings will absolutely be the main factors in which to convey what this really sounds like as a whole. If it isn't right, back to the drawing board and remain disciplined until the correct answer is found.  As I say, it is all about discovery and process.


No, absolutely no padding!  That would be like introducing negative feedback within a refined SET amplifier!  Would become rather pointless in the end.

Circuit boards have their place, and they certainly make things easier during production, but you know, it is all about the end result. The quality factor is always the most important thing to consider when building audio projects.  Point to point soldering keeps things direct and short. That is proven to make a significant difference with high end audio.

I had my reservations about implementing a Zobel circuit to stabilize the impedance. I know that this can degrade the sound quality, but I felt it was important to this design. After testing it, I do not regret doing so. I like to keep things as simple and direct as possible, but this array is complex, so there was no short and easy solution to maintaining such a smooth frequency response. This response is nearly ideal when all things are considered. This is not an easy thing to achieve.  The only concern that I have is how it sounds. If I like it, then I am satisfied.

We shall have a discussion concerning this graphene project.  I do want to find out more about this.  I try never to downplay what I cannot prove.

Now just where did I put that mixture of deuterium and tritium!

[smiley=tunes57.gif]


I am not getting your email messages. After your first one, I never saw anything else. Not sure what is happening with my account, but for some reason, yours does not come through. Try sending again. If that does not work, then try a text or PM me here. I checked the spam folder and everywhere else, nothing shows up.

As for that listening session, After the intense and SO gratifying listening experience I became enthralled with last night, I thought about how you are going to react once you have experienced this. I intend to stir up some real emotion within your perception of music so that you won't stop thinking about it for some time to come.  If this does not somehow become something special for you, then I give up....everything is going to Goodwill! If you experience what I did last night, I guarantee that you are in for a real epiphany.

:o

Anyway, get back with you later.

I am now going to resume posting. I am near the end of this phase.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/09/24 at 06:21:30


Inwall Baffle Array Listening Evaluation: Part  Two, Final Results



Now that the crossover networks have been upgraded with a new design and higher grade parts, it is time to reevaluate this inwall system to see if there are any improvements within the areas where I felt were not performing optimally.


According to the frequency response graph produced by the X-sim software after the upgrade, it clearly shows that the improvement is there, but listening is what will confirm this.  Just remember, the amplifier still had that problem with noise and distortion tainting the system.  So once again, the end result of this second evaluation is not what it would have been had this problem not been an issue.  I can't go back now, as that phase was finished long ago, where the transition to the new system went into play approximately six months later.  I really wish I could have heard this second evaluation using the amp as it is today in prime operating condition.

At that time, if I recall correctly, the set of Electro Harmonix EL34 tubes from Cryoset were getting close to the end of life, so that too could have contributed to a tainted result for these evaluations. I am almost certain that I changed this tube set within a few months of this time period.   At any rate, I have to accept things as they were and just be satisfied with that.


As for the seating arrangement, even though I found that the 38 percent rule did indeed bring the best results sitting at the nearfield position, I opted for the rear seating position at 38 percent of the rooms length from the rear wall.   This position was still quite acceptable, and I did not feel that I was losing that much as a compromise. Any differences between the two positions are minimal.  My perception was that the forward nearfield position seemed to have a larger soundstage with better imaging.  The idea of sitting that close to the front wall was just too odd for me to accept, so it just wasn't going to be acceptable to use that listening position.  There always seems to be a tradeoff when something is changed. As you recall from the first listening evaluation, the bass response actually improved at the 38 percent position from the rear wall.  I want the best bass response possible, so this became my choice and that is where I remain today.  It wasn't a major change, but more refined.


As for the results, it has been awhile since I experienced this, but I will focus upon the things that I felt were worthwhile, and definitely an improvement over the first test.

Again, the music played were of standard issue CD's, the same ones used in the previous test. Other than what I did to modify the crossover networks, the system is pretty much unchanged at that point.

I expected that upgrading to higher quality parts with an improved design was going to make a noticeable improvement. The results on the graph show this, so now we shall see what that equates to in an actual listening test.  The areas of improvement needed where mostly in the low end, the lower midrange which seemed too thin and unsatisfactory, and the most critical area where overtones are prominent to the delicate fine detail within the higher frequency range. All of these areas should be produced  with unrestricted transparency when the system is optimal and highly refined.

Even though my amplifier was not performing as it should have been, what I hear being revealed at this stage was most definitely an improvement in every way. The bass response was  tighter, more involving, and detailed. The transition between notes convey better distinction now . The lower midrange revealed a robust body with far greater focus, and much improved presence. This is that critical presence which lures you into the music with a physical and emotional connection. It goes without saying, that the upper midrange took on a more refined presence as well. The presentation  is better balanced, equalized across the general frequency spectrum in a more natural sense.

Now for the high frequency response.  There was a definite improvement here as to what I felt was missing before. Detail with greater extension is now crystal clear compared to the original listening test.  Most importantly, the soundstage opened up considerably. The level of imaging became more refined, as the separation of instruments within time and space  present realistic presence within the room.  I can only imagine what the degree of improvement would have been had my amp been operating as it does today. All of these changes were noticeable, correcting the previous issues to a level which is at a higher level of quality.  Compared to before, this seemed very good. So I just left the arrangement this way for the next six months or so, and found it satisfactory that way.  All except for one thing that still was not up to my expectations.

That area which I am disappointed with is the lack of low frequency extension with that important connection to bass response which makes the music take on a physical presence as would be felt in a real musical presentation.  I knew at this time that this setup was never going to perform at the levels which I expect to have. This array of woofers  were clearly the wrong choice for this type of speaker arrangement.  With hindsight being 20/20 after the fact, I realized that the proper way to have done this would have been to build a bass system separate from the baffle wall, with an auxiliary subwoofer to enhance the bass extension.  I should have only placed the midrange and high frequency drivers flush within the baffle wall, leaving the lower frequency drivers within enclosures that I could have placed within the room, providing flexibility where I could dial in the best room response.  

Bass is omnidirectional, so placement is not going to  affect the way it blends in with the main drivers. When the bass drivers are placed within the wall, there is zero flexibility in which to dial in the best response. I had expected this as a very possible end result, but I gave it a shot.  As I said before, I am sure now that heavy bass cancellation was going on with these woofers built into the baffle wall. I would expect far better bass response out of eight  woofers wired in a series/parallel fashion to increase efficiency.  I can't say that I was surprised at this result, but the experiment must go on, and now I know the reality of this.

So, since the bass response was nowhere near what I require before I am completely satisfied, there had to be again, another change, and this time, the bass drivers were going to be a separate part of this, arranged in a manner which I can place around the room to find the ideal room response. It will be far easier to modify and change out bass drivers as needed to find the right level of performance.


That was the plan. But wouldn't you know it, with time comes change.  We needed the bedroom which was on the other side of this baffle wall to be restored to a private usable manner again.  That means that the open back of these speaker arrays can no longer be allowed. That closet space needed to be returned to service for that bedroom.  So that was the end of the full scale baffle wall with flush mounted speakers.  I got to experience this design, and now I know exactly what to expect from that type of design. But reality checks in, and this is no longer an option.

So with this, that concludes the second and final listening evaluation for the inwall baffle array.

I am going in a completely new direction, but with a familiar set of speakers which I built around 2015 as a reference grade design of the highest quality standard possible. These were originally built for commercial retail for which I had considered licensing for high end audio dealers. I had created a design which excelled to a point where I feel by comparison, is better than anything I have listened to in the past. And that carries a great deal of weight when considering the designs I am comparing to.  What I did not know, was just how great the potential of these designs really were back then, as to what I now experience today with my current situation. Those speaker designs had been covered up and placed in storage for over two years while this audio room was being built and tested with the inwall system.  I knew that these were on standby if the inwall system failed to work out. And now we are at the present time, it is time to put these speaker designs back into action.

I do not see the inwall system as a failure. Even though it did not meet my expectations, what I gained was valuable insight as to what is possible, yet very difficult to create. I learned through experience. Experience is priceless. I will never look back and say....what if?  As I stated before, this whole experiment was about discovery. With discovery comes process, with process comes results. With results we have the answers we are searching for. Without it, we remain ignorant in the dark.

This marks the beginning of the second stage. Evolution has found the truth which serves me well.

The next segment will introduce you to my current system and room configuration in part three.


I hope that you did not find this end result to be disappointing. If anything, you learned a valuable lesson through someone else's trial and tribulations. If nothing else, I hope this journey has presented some degree of entertainment.  But listen, I am not done here yet. As a matter of fact, I am just now where I want to be. The journey gets very interesting now, and I promise you, the outcome is much more favorable in present form.

I will be building new designs in the near future. All of this will be progression into the advancement of discovery. I am always looking into the future and what it has in store.


I will return with stage two as it unfolds. You just may like it. I know that I do!


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 09/09/24 at 13:56:21

Quote:
I am not getting your email messages.


This has happen to me before. If you replied using my e-mail contact  info embedded in this forum it adds an additional identifier to your e-mail address line which causes what you describe. When I replied to those e-mails the responses most likely ended up in your spam folder.

I will text my e-mail to Val. You then should copy it from the text and paste it in your e-mail application that you use and send me an e-mail message. I will use the address from the sent e-mail for future communication.

I have just hidden my e-mail in this forum to eliminate this from happening again, hopefully anyways!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/09/24 at 23:50:15
You then should copy it from the text and paste it in your e-mail application that you use and send me an e-mail message. I will use the address from the sent e-mail for future communication.



It is done. Check your email. My spam folder has nothing from you. It is as though you were blocked.

I will get back to you shortly.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 09/10/24 at 06:17:12

Quote:
Check your email.


Replied with your request in the e-mail.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 09/13/24 at 00:59:35
RP,

Nice overview and details. I'm having fun re-living your audio journey past experiences with you. Plus, this forum is a great place to document it and have it live on.

I certainly agree with you that there is no failure at all here, let alone any disappointment. The baffle wall was a concept and theory that needed to be proven one way or the other in your case. The learning experience was invaluable, and the knowledge gained will always be with you for any future endeavors.
It's a testament to your commitment to the 'audio journey' and seeking out the truth in real results. I applaud that commitment as well as your skill, perseverance, and hard work to get 'er done! All I can say is Wow, on all fronts.

I also agree with you on audio equipment. I don't think you have to spend large sums to get it right. Your choice of front-end components is a great example of that. You found what will do the job really well and put it together. I found myself doing the same with Decware gear. I knew what I wanted/needed and felt it was a great fit. No need to spend 10's of thousands for my purpose at the time. I did splurge a little on my streamer/DAC by having it modified by MWI (great, great mods btw). Being my digital front-end, I wanted it to be exceptional without breaking the bank and the modded combo unit totally fit the bill. Anyway, like you, I decide on what I need and what will fill the need without concern of what people may think or how less expensive it is compared to 'audiophile' gear. However, I do feel you get what you pay for, but it makes it nice when you find something for much less than expected.

Thanks again for the exploits, and looking forward to the next installment!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/13/24 at 04:34:36
Thanks mrchipster, I certainly did go to great lengths to find the answer to that experiment. It was worth it while it lasted. But things change, and sometimes we have to move in different directions then what we set out for.

It is a good thing that I had my reference speakers on standby. Once that I put them back into service, I instantly knew that this was what was meant to be.

As for the equipment, not only do you get what you pay for, but also, the results are the sum of the correct parts working together in the right combination as you pointed out. It only makes sense that if you focus upon the parts that are used in the higher end models, then you should effectively mimic the performance characteristics of that selection. That is a good thing about audio forums all over the internet. Eventually, one gets valuable information from other peoples projects which end up with great acclaim.

Had I never read so many rave reviews concerning the Zero DAC, I would have never bought one. That unit is the best purchase I ever made in audio. The guy who designed and built this unit makes them to order much like Decware does.  Choices of DAC chips were optional so that you get the ones that you prefer. Having a choice of Burr-Brown DAC chips made this an easy choice. That particular DAC chip is well known as a great sounding choice. I am extremely pleased with the sound quality it produces. This unit stands out over the stock Tascam with 24 bit 192 kHz dual D/A conversion. The difference is better dynamics, better sound-stage, and better clarity. The transport in the Tascam unit goes straight out, bypassing everything directly via fiber optics. So between the great TEAC CD-5020A transport and the Zero DAC, this makes a combination which is very hard to beat, let alone equal.

 Unfortunately, since the COVID 19 period, he is no longer selling this unit online. He just disappeared and his store is not to be found. I have no idea what happened to him, but apparently, this unit is no longer available. It is a shame when you consider the quality factor at such a low cost. Just an unbelievable value to say the least!

Again, this is something that must be heard to fully understand just how good this combination sounds.

As for the old stock Philips rectifiers that I swapped for a short while to test, well let's just say that they are not right for this amplifier. Those tubes got high acclaim from users who left reviews on the Upscale Audio website. Those tubes are hard to get now, and command a high price. They are of no value to me.

After I swapped the Electro Harmonix ES rectifiers for the Philips, I noticed that the smooth full bodied sound that I had was now brittle and somewhat harsh sounding. The dynamics clearly dropped off, and the sound-stage just seemed to collapse. I never thought that rectifiers could make or break the sound quality of the amp to any large degree, but this was clearly an undeniable case. I can tell you, that rectifiers absolutely make a difference within the sound signature of these Torii amplifiers.  Just goes to show how influential the power supply really is as a crucial part of the amplifiers sound.

I put the Electro Harmonics ES tubes back in, and PRESTO, everything was restored back to normal. The funny thing is that the Electro Harmonics ES rectifiers are inexpensive, while the old stock Philips are now demanding huge sums of money if you can find them. My advice is to stay clear of these and save your money.

So, glad you are enjoying my audio adventure. I think that you will find the next segments very interesting and most likely quite entertaining.

I will start advancing into the next phase shortly. I have been extremely busy, so finding time to be here is not easy. I am usually so exhausted from working all day that I just start to nod off when I get online. I am making great progress, and hope to have this house project completed within the next three weeks if weather permits.

I have ideas waiting to be built and tested in this audio room. I am looking forward to having time devoted to working on these ideas. So you can see that things never really stop. I will eventually be experimenting with new additions (acoustical treatment) to the room, and that means continuing into another phase for this thread. I am certain that this is going to continue for an extended time into next year. Winter time means more time in the shop. Something is bound to come out of that time period.  I do plan this winter to begin building my next set of speakers with full range 8 inch drivers based upon the rear loaded horn concept.





Check this out. As I was writing this post, this warning was directed to my attention.

Error: Posting this fast is considered spamming, you are warned!
You are only allowed 6 more attempt(s) after which you will be banned as spammer!


WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ABOUT???


:o


If I get banned for something this stupid, I am going to be really upset.



Anyway, I will get back to this next audio phase.  (that is if I don't get banned)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/13/24 at 04:49:18


Hey JB,


I am baffled as to what the problem is getting messages through my email address. I have never had this issue before.  Not sure if you got the test email that I sent your way, but I am getting nothing back from you.

Something is blocking this communication. I see nothing in the spam folder, and no trace of a message anywhere.

You might have to just relay a message here or with a PM.  You can always send a direct message through the cell phone.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/13/24 at 05:33:01

This is the beginning of the second stage. The in-wall speaker array has been removed and the wall is now solid again (at least in appearance).  Just remember, you can't see the built in midrange bass absorbers that make up a huge part of this wall.  This wall may look normal, but it is anything BUT normal! A good portion of that surface is actually metal for the face plates of the diaphragmatic absorbers.
































So now we will focus upon what is going to fill that space for audio speakers.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/13/24 at 16:27:25

Quote:
Check this out. As I was writing this post, this warning was directed to my attention.

Error: Posting this fast is considered spamming, you are warned!
You are only allowed 6 more attempt(s) after which you will be banned as spammer!


WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ABOUT???


The reason for the time limit between posts is because AI BOTS that somehow get approved will start rapid fire posting spam.  It can be in the hundreds in just a few minutes.  Not very fun to hunt down and delete these posts.  With a delay set it minimizes the damage if one does get through.  

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/15/24 at 02:39:34


Steve,

The funny thing is, I was not posting anything in rapid succession.  I was simply writing and refreshing to see changes that I made to the pending post. I had not even posted anything yet at the time of that warning.

I completely understand the problem that these AI bots are creating here. I would love to hunt down the source of this code and be the one to terminate it's presence with MY form of persuasion. Behind that code is a sleaze bag who doesn't deserve the oxygen given that POS!

People need to wake up and be aware that the rise of AI is going to be the total downfall of humanity. There will be a point of no return.

I had discussions about this 30 years ago concerning the potential of this very thing. We knew back then about the warning signs, and being part of the military with a high level security clearance, I was aware back then of more than I cared to know about the impending future, and what will become of technology. This is just another reminder of how mankind simply feels the need to self destruct.

I hope this can easily be rectified to get me back on if this ever does ban me from the forum.

I will be aware of this, but as I said, I did nothing wrong to trigger this response.

Sometimes I wish that I could hit the reset button and restart life again around 1978. Life was so much better then.

And life goes on in this world of uncertainty.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/15/24 at 04:31:49

Good evening everyone.

 I shall get back on track with a good note to start things off.  I had a very hard day today trying to get all of this work done to the house. I am losing daylight rapidly as each day goes on, so I have to work late into the evening, wrapping things up by moonlight.  I will be so glad when this job is finished. If I don't come across anymore unforeseen problems to deal with, then this should be real soon.



So where I left off with the last post was at the stage of a new beginning for my audio room.  I will now show you the beginning stages of how this came about, and the results of the next design for which I am currently using.  

The build I am going to show you was completed back around 2015, so these are well broken in and have hundreds of hours on them. When I designed these speakers, I had one thing in mind, to make them right the first time, and never feel the need for replacements. My goal was to create the finest design possible with quality being the utmost of this build. These are very complex. They certainly commanded a high level of skill and knowledge to bring these into fruition.

Just know this, I will not divulge technical details which would inspire some unsavory character to steal and begin manufacturing them. I will give you the basics of how they work, but with extreme caution.  Trust me, that form of presence was very real on my YouTube channel. I had to quickly terminate that platform. These were the original models that I planned to build for retail.  The cost of making that venture happen was just too much of an investment for me to take on. So these became my personal reference models which I will never let go. They are a perfect match for my amplifier, and I could not be more pleased with this combination.



As I stated in the past, out of curiosity only, I am feeling the need to experiment again and try a new build. This design idea is similar to the lil' headwrecker design, but I am putting my own ideas into them for an expanded alteration. Mine will be downsized to 80 percent of the big boys, but they too will be super efficient, with superb sonic range using an amplifier such as the Torii models, or the very intriguing ZMA with it's super clean 40 watts that count.  ( I plan to order that amp soon unless a new design comes out to catch my attention ). I don't need that much power with well designed speakers, but it doesn't hurt to have a good abundance of reserve power for those intense levels of sonic bliss. Bass response will not be taken lightly.

I don't even use more than 40 percent of the ToriiMk3 power on tap, and that is only around 25 watts per channel if I am correct on that.  Transients may be quick, but they demand a great deal of power in a short burst. Without enough reserve power, that can be a challenge for an under powered amp quickly driven into distortion.  I can not praise the design of this amp enough!   I drive it hard, and it just keeps delivering the golden promise, never letting me down. The tube arrangement that I use simply seems to match this amp perfectly as well.  I absolutely would be hard pressed to find a way to make this amp perform any more exemplary than what it currently is.  The amp is the deciding factor for which any speaker design will have merit.


So with my future build, I will be focusing on a rear loaded horn concept using 8 inch full range drivers.  Double walled Baltic birch, and a good implementation of mass loaded vinyl to kill cabinet resonance. Instead of using wings, I shall incorporate a very radical form of diffuse angles which have a purpose very similar to stealth technology. If you know anything about why a stealth fighter has those multiple hard angles along its body, that is to avoid radar detection.

Logic tells me that this type of design could take some of the diffraction issues away from a standard cabinet.  I was trying to get away from this design flaw with the baffle wall, SBIR being the main focus.


I have an idea for an adjustable gate for which to fine tune bass response for any room that these go into.  I want the design to have a full rake with perhaps a 7 degree slant. The entire speaker will be built at that degree, not just the front.  That is the way my reference speakers are built. That is a great deal of angles to deal with, but it is worth the hassle. Great builds don't come easy.

I wasn't even thinking about building a new design, but things change with time, and hey, why not!  So that project will begin next year, perhaps around January.

I like a good challenge, and it is damn fulfilling once an idea transforms into something which simply blooms with all the right rewards.



I don't stress about failures, as that is what it takes to find the ultimate solution.


How many times do you suppose that Wilbur and Orville Wright failed miserably before they took that first flight which led them into the history books?  

Suddenly, success made up for all of those disappointing trials.  If only they knew where that journey was to lead into the future.


The next post will begin the current part of my journey for which is currently adapted into my audio room.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Donnie on 09/15/24 at 16:05:37
I've had the "System" lock me out also.

It ended up that I was previewing my posts too quickly as I was editing them.  It counts the preview button the same as the posting button.

Just slow down! Don't preview more than once a minute.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/17/24 at 02:05:04

Thanks Donnie, I came up with that same conclusion. I have been very careful since that warning.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/17/24 at 04:07:18

So here we go with the start of the new speaker system. What you are about to see are the basic details and build images of my reference grade models which I designed and built. These are the Qforce speakers which I am currently using in the audio room.

The entire cabinets are built at a de-greed rate of rake. Not just the front, but the entire unit front to back are slanted equally. Just as if the entire assembly was warped backward. Of course the top and bottom are on perfect horizontal level to the floor.


These are built using high grade Baltic birch plywood. The crossover networks were designed using the Xsim simulator software. Actual driver testing was completed to create the necessary FRD & ZMA files for the design. The final result of the frequency response is not only efficient, but extremely accurate and very well balanced across the entire spectrum from 40 Hz to well past 20 kHz. There is still a very strong presence down to 30 Hz with an Fs of 27 Hz.  I enhance these with an external bass reinforcement system which blends in perfectly to produce really tight low end response which boosts the lower end enough to equalize everything out.

These speakers are a two part design which mates a transmission line enclosure to a passively enhanced rear loaded horn concept. This design allows for adjust-ability between the two sections which allows for fine bass tuning in any room.

As I stated before, I am being careful not to divulge technical details in order to protect my design from being copied and manufactured. Even though the images themselves show much of the detail behind this design, it will be tough to copy without actual measurements. I put way to much time, effort, and cost to just give this information away freely. My purpose is not to instruct someone on how to build these. This is only to give you an idea of what I am using now in this room.


Here is a view of the blueprint for the Qforce design.  Again, NO measurements.  








This view shows the layout for the front grill covers which are machined from hardwood.





The bass extension housings are made from .75" MDF which you see drawn out here.





The following images of the primary speaker enclosures are not the actual images of this build, but they are nearly identical. I did not have images of this internal view, but just happened to have images of another set of speakers which used the same design. My actual speakers as seen here have more reinforcement, plus the top and bottom are constructed with double layers of .75 inch Baltic birch.  The following images will however give you an idea of how these are constructed.

Here you see the internal view showing the front part of the enclosure forward of the T-line.




And here you see the rear portion of the enclosure where the passive radiators will couple with the bass extension section.





And this image showing the DADO joints for very strong structural integrity.












This shows the back of the primary enclosure where the passive radiators are being machined to fit.






This is a fit check for the passive radiator surrounds and grills.










I will be back to continue this build review soon.  There is much more to come.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/18/24 at 04:17:00
+






Moving on, the following images show the progression of this current build.



























That was a bit more insight as to how these perform. What you see here is the initial build for testing. I did further refine these networks since the initial build. All caps were upgraded to 1 percent precision audio types except for the foil capacitors which were already in the initial build. The resistors are 1 percent MILLS. These networks have impedance stabilization circuits built in.


More to come later.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/21/24 at 04:26:19


Picking up where I left off, here are some more images of the Qforce speaker build.

















This was the original crossover network when the speakers were built.






Since then, I redesigned the networks using Xsim and completely upgraded with a revised design. The current network uses all premium parts which are mostly 1 percent tolerance grade. Only premium foil inductors are used for this design.





This next view shows the rear of the main quarter wave enclosure. You see the three passive radiators which couple with the rear base unit for extended bass tuning.





Here you see the main enclosures with a view of the rear loaded section which mates to this.











Here you see the set of rear bass sections which cradle the main enclosures with airtight seals for extended bass response.






These rear sections come apart by means of fasteners for transport or storage. The entire back section can be removed from the bottom platform.






The two sections are mated together as seen here.
















































































That should be enough for now.  To be continued.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/27/24 at 14:44:42

The Qforce speakers are in place. You will notice the tape markings on the floor which signify the exact placement for each speaker where they are placed as mirror imaged positions within the room dimensions.

In case you are questioning the relative close proximity of these speakers set in this fashion, then you need to go back and read from the beginning what my focus is here, and why it is necessary to do this. Contrary to what you may have heard, or what everyone else "thinks" the way it should be done, that does not apply here.

I have created the ultimate imaging platform which coincides with the factor of reducing inter-aural cross-talk between the speakers. If you understand the principles behind this phenomena, and what it takes to eliminate it, then you will completely understand why I do the things that you see here.  Once that you experience the presentation which unfolds from this setup, you will be enlightened as to how correct that I am about this concept.  I would never go back to the traditional triangle setup again.








My listening position is at 38 percent of the room length from the rear wall. This position provides the optimal engagement for positive sound reinforcement within the room dimensions. In case you forgot, this concerns room modal response, avoiding hot spots, and bass cancellations (nodes / anti-nodes, aka standing waves) within the room boundaries. Let's just refer to it as fine tuning your focal point without negative interference.






I want to reiterate once again the fact that the forward wall is NOT an ordinary solid wall. It only appears that way.  Again, if you are confused about that, go back to the beginning and see how I built this wall, and why.  The design of this wall works in harmony with the rest of the acoustic environment in order to maintain much needed bass absorption within the room, while avoiding a dead sounding atmosphere. This allows for a live vibrant room while keeping things under control.

My final intention for completing the acoustic transformation here, is to complete this wall with ternary diffusion tactics, along with an absorption barrier placed between the speakers in order to block stray phantom signals which contaminate your perception of time and space within the music.

This again is a necessary step in order to reinforce the reduction of inter-aural cross-talk.   I have completed extensive preliminary tests of this concept. The results are extremely positive and rewarding.  With this confirmation, it is time to implement its value.  This will be completed in the final stage.

I will be building a set of sidewall absorbers to cover the immediate offset from the speakers in order to completely control sidewall reflections.  That alone will open up the sound stage to a much larger expansion. They will need to be movable, so a platform with wheels is necessary.  These will be poly cylindrical, with a diffusion technique applied to the face.


Once that is complete, this room will be fully transformed to the extreme.





I have more to come.  I shall return later to continue.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/27/24 at 18:11:32












Here you can see the left side corner bass absorber pulled away from the doorway. Now you know why this unit required wheels for quick and easy movement.






The poly-cylindrical diaphragmatic bass absorber rolled back into position for listening.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/27/24 at 20:13:28

As I stated in previous posts, I balance the frequency spectrum out for an ideal flat response within the room by mating the system with auxiliary bass enhancement. So this is actually a three way system. I place the unit behind my sitting position within the ideal zone free from bass cancellation nulls.




I just happened to have two pairs of these Visaton bass drivers sitting around collecting dust. I saw this project on the Visaton website and thought I would give it a try. Keep in mind that this is not a subwoofer, but a stereo extension for which to boost bass in the lower regions of the main speakers to provide a more even frequency response down to 40 Hz. These are driven directly from the ToriiMK3 posts along with the speaker leads.





















A description from the Visaton website for this diy project.






I can tell you that everything stated here is absolutely correct to the highest degree.







This is the frequency response for this unit. This gives a precise boost exactly where my system needs it. The efficiency rating is roughly 92 db. My system is rated at over 91 db efficiency. So you see that these are a perfect match.






This configuration maintains an easy load for the ToriiMK3 to drive without any strain at all. The result is incredibly good to say the least.





[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/30/24 at 00:08:33


In a bit of a different direction, I shall take the time now to show you some of the music titles that I listen to in this room. This will give you a very good idea as to what I am experiencing if you know these titles. If you were at least 16 years of age back in the 70's, then you should relate to everything here.


I talked about the importance of reducing or eliminating "interaural-crosstalk" from the music as it is played back through a stereo set of speakers.

Back in the early 80's, I had a new copy of this album (Dark Side Of The Moon), both on vinyl, and on CD. They were audiophile recordings on the Mobile Fildelity label. Those of which demand very high prices today if you can find these original gems. The following title is the remastered version from 2011 on the "experienced" works. I also have "Wish You Were Here", "Animals", & "The Wall" that were remastered during this "experienced" release in 2011.

When I had the original release on Mobile Fidelity, I played it using the Carver Sonic Holographic Generator back during the early 80's. Everything that works to meet my current audio goal manifested itself from this very album being the core driving force. It truly is the holy grail of creativity for which to challenge any respectable hi-fi system. This album is a superb reference recording which will unveil an incredible 360 degrees of dimensional imaging if your system, and your room, has what it takes to make it happen.

Unfortunately, without the removal of cross-talk contamination, you will never know the true perception of how this actually sounds as intended from the studio engineer. With the Carver circuit, which works by means of complex phase inversion and delay configuration, the original sound is played back minus the two confusing phantom signals that cause "cross-talk".


Here is a block diagram showing how the cross-talk elimination works by form of injection and cancellation.





Without this unit, once you have experienced it with the circuitry correction, you will never be satisfied listening to this album again knowing what is missing.

It has been several decades since I discovered that magic within this album. I had sold the unit with that circuit when I started buying Decware products back in the late 90's. I have regretted letting that pre-amp go every since. There is nothing that has ever even come close to what that unit does for TRUE music playback.

During that time period (1986), a friend of mine just bought a set of the flagship Polk Audio SDA speakers which used a different scheme to counter this effect by means of internal crossover enhancement and a cross-link cable to rectify speaker cross-talk. They worked okay in my opinion, but not as well as the Carver circuit did from my perspective.


Polk Audio now has a revised version of that speaker which uses a completely advanced form of that technology. That speaker is the Legend L800 SDA with adjustable bass tuning. This speaker design gave me an idea as to how I can approach a way to reduce cross-talk without the addition of this circuitry.


This is an old design technique which Polk Audio used in the original SDA speaker system with the cross link cable.






TODAY: Polk Audio is accomplishing this correction by means of having a mirror imaged set of mid-range drivers in a focused array, offset at 2.5 degrees from center. There are two rows of these drivers which angle away from each other at 2.5 degrees. What this does is to delay the timing of the second set of drivers so that they come around and cancel out the cross-talk signal before it reaches your perspective ear. They are using timing delay tactics along with inversion of that second mirror array. Again, it seems that by using the "Inversion-Time Delay approach", this seems to be the golden answer. I am not going to buy these speakers, nor any type of additional electronic device. Just know that there are means out there to rectify this problem. The most complex technology is the "Binaural" tactics which are very costly, and very sophisticated, but are the best solution to date.

Just remember, with the removal of cross-talk, you are also adding artifacts and coloration from this additional circuit. There is always a trade off. I want to focus upon keeping my signal path as clean and simple as possible. I am researching this, and eventually, I will come up with an acceptable solution within the speaker design itself. All that needs to be done in order to correct inter-aural cross-talk is one simple thing.


The solution: Block the two unwanted signals from reaching your ears. (These crossover in front of your face, causing information to be heard in the wrong ear from the wrong channel.) Why is it so simple? Because this is done mechanically by an actual barrier which the signals can not pass through.  The problem with this: It is not feasible to run a full size barrier between the speakers and your head. That certainly does the trick, but nobody will actually do this. When you hear the results though, it will change your perspective on natural audio forever. If you have never experienced this experiment, then you have no idea just how bad the normal perception of audio really is.


So why am I bringing this issue up again you may ask? Because what I am about to tell you stems directly from the barrier experiment.


I have not heard this level of true holographic imagery coming from this album in so long, that I never thought I would experience it again. I had an extremely intense relationship with this album last night which took me way back to that golden experience of past. What I experienced was not 100 percent of how good it really can be, but so close that it took me deep within its alluring effects for a powerful emotional feeling within.

I am talking pure joy to have been reunited with such a great memory of this album.

How did I do this? Well, let me go back and reveal a thought I had while sitting in the audio room listening to music. I suddenly had this thought in my head that made me wonder why I had not done this before.  I had leftover rolls of R13 fiberglass sitting in the closet space behind the baffle wall. I also had a large package of ROXUL insulation still in the bag.  So being the experimenter that I am, I pulled those items out and set them up as barriers between the speakers and my ears. The ROXUL was just big enough to extend to the height of my speakers. It extends four feet fwd of the speakers. This package is about a foot thick and compressed. The speakers must be as close as possible with this barrier between them.

Knowing that for this to work, this barrier is supposed to extend all the way to your head in order to be effective. So being that was not possible, I substituted the six rolls of R13 as an extension of that barrier. I stacked them up to a height of over six feet and centered them directly in front of my position, centered so that only the left and right half of each speaker channel could be visible from my position.

I reasoned that this won't block the signals entirely from reaching my ears, as the flow can actually find a path around and between the physical barriers when there is a gap. Knowing that, I thought I would give it a try anyway and see (or hear) what happens.

Now mind you, I am comparing this same album without any other form of change what-so-ever. I listened to this album with the speakers set at the same exact distance as what was used in the experiment. The only thing that changed was the introduction of the fiberglass barrier acting as a huge absorber.

Without the barrier: Nothing special about the imagery considering what I knew was possible. Yes, the sound stage was wide and expansive, but it should extend beyond that with studio special effects which I simply was not satisfied with. If I had not experienced this effect before with the processor, I would have never known what actually existed within these soundtracks. This album should sound Quadraphonic, as if you had a surround system playing. Except that surround systems do not sound natural like what happens in a 360 degree sound field which can be revealed with the right equipment or speakers that are designed for this in a two channel stereo system.

At best, I was only getting 180 degrees of expansion WITHOUT the barrier. That is considered pretty good as far as imaging goes, but like I said, something has stopped short here, and I am being denied the true expansion of this recording. I will relate to this as being a form of compression, pushing everything back in restraint from the listener.

Sure, it seems very satisfying, everything does project a nice sense of expansion and detail. BUT, when you hear this WITH the barrier in place, things begin to unravel, and some very special things begin to happen. So much that it will shock you with that realization as it unfolds.

BTW: in order to perform this experiment effectively with good results, the speaker drivers have to be in a centered-inline configuration. The speakers must have a full barrier between them, and everything sandwiched together without gaps. The speakers are NOT to be toed. The length of the barrier must be longer than the width of the speaker set-up. For the full effect, the listener has to place their face so close to the barrier edge that each eye cannot see the opposite side of the barrier. Now you have total elimination of the cross-talk signals.

This works well with small speakers to make the experiment easier. Not every album will produce as dramatic of an effect as what this one does. I am confident that just about every album will benefit from its use to a high degree.

This is the remastered 2011 version of this release. I still don't find it as good as the original Mobile Fidelity release, but that is what I have.








Let's jump ahead to my experience last night with this barrier in place. Remember, not a true barrier as recommended, but just the use of heavy absorbers placed in a strategic manner.

Cue the soundtrack and sit back centered between the set up.

The first four tracks of this album are what produces the most dramatic effects that you may ever hear from a recording. This is the only album that I have played so far which has such intense low frequency information, that something in the room actually vibrates from being excited by resonance. This only happens when the first four heartbeats are pulsing through the room. They definitely make an impact.After that, there is no more resonance issues. I think it is my window cover vibrating at that frequency.

Before, the running man only projects a distance of 180 degrees, barely being offset from my ears to the side. The sound effects of the flying saucers seemed to come close to that point, but failed to go beyond. With the impending crash, it sounded centered and too far forward from where it should be. The heavy breathing was noticeable, but restrained. Once the clocks began to tick and come into focus, the spread was decent, and quite realistic within the definition of the layout. Normally, I would think this is great. But you know, I heard better before and I know what I should be hearing from experience. All in all, I perceived the sound stage to be restricted to no more than 180 degrees of my position, with an apparent width of maybe 20 to 30 feet across.

NOW:

After: Somebody gave that running man a shot of adrenaline! He has come full circle as he realistically passes around me and runs BEHIND my head and off into the distance. His breathing is much more intense as he is being chased. Now, the flying saucers are passing by me with sonic force which sounds like they just flew down the center of the room over my head. The crash segment now is heard behind me and with a widespread decay of the explosion. And when those clocks come into play, this is a real treat to behold! I was literally submerged within a sea of clocks which sounded stunningly real, extremely vibrant, and highly detailed. This will make you look around to see where the sound is coming from. An absolutely superb illusion to say the least.

I can tell you that as good as this result is, it is still not as good as what I remember using the Carver Sonic Holographic Generator. It is however, good enough to satisfy me, especially when I know that the purity of the music signals were not compromised in any fashion by using mechanical means.

That was the only test that I needed to verify what the real problem is here. I really hate it and I want it eliminated for good!

I see no reason why some proportionally correct absorbers on a portable system with wheels can't be considered here. Just roll them in place during listening sessions, and roll them out of the way when finished. A very simple low cost solution which is easy to fabricate. The results far outweigh the excuses here.

This resurrection of the music gave me an incredible high which took me to a vary high level of satisfaction.

This can only be surmised as one final conclusion. Your music is not revealing itself for what it really contains if your system does not have this cross-talk under control. In a sense, your ears are being deceived!


This was a very special moment for me to experience once again. I wish that all of you could experience what I did last night.

I shall show you some more titles shortly. I felt that story was relevant to the foundation of how everything must be in sync to really appreciate this thing we call audio.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/30/24 at 02:41:52

The following data is from the website of the inventor for LPCD technology.

I am relaying this information to you as I have purchased three studio tape masters from this technology. These master tapes are transferred to Cd without compression or limiting. These are completely lossless from the original master recordings. The transfer process is a direct 1:1 technique with full preservation. This is as close as one will every get to hearing the actual studio master tape without actually hearing the original. If all recordings sounded this great, we would stop looking for more equipment to satisfy our needs. I can tell you from experience, these are the ultimate by a long shot!


The LPCD technology:


     

LPCD: Artistic Sense + Advanced Technology
LPCD is the latest and most advanced technology researched and developed by Mr Aik Yew-Goh, the founder of Hugo Productions.

Mr Aik is a renowned recording producer and musician who spends 35 years in musical experimentations and 20 years in professional music production. LPCD is developed based on a unique set of digital processing technology which enables listeners to experience the analogue sound of the vinyl LP record from an ordinary CD player.
     

Mr Aik has been researching this technique for a long time. He has produced over 300 music records in the last 20 years. Every time when he compared these recordings with the master tapes, he would find that there was a difference in the audio quality, but he was unable to work out a solution due to his busy schedule in music productions. Until 2003, after producing two LPs, Mr Aik revisited this subject and did a detailed analysis on the sonic differences between CD, XRCD, SACD, etc., to pinpoint the reason why the CD and LP differ much in their tonal quality.

The general consensus among most audiophiles being that when comparing with LP, CD (including normal CD, 24K CD, XRCD, SACD and DVD-Audio) would sound tight, tensed and compressed (especially when playing at loud sound level, one would find it difficult to maintain concentration in appreciating the music and the sound system). Besides, the lack of extension at the low and high sonic frequencies has resulted in a harsher treble, inelastic bass, poor dynamics, etc. Being an LP audiophile, Mr Aik is well aware of the problem. He reckons that the only way to seek out the answer is to listen to his own recordings extensively and repeatedly, before he is entitled to voice his views.


I am inserting my own perspective here as to what he just stated about CD's.  I agree with him concerning the average mass produced titles produced using high levels of compression and limiters to destroy the sonic purity within the dynamic range of the master tape, which are in the mainstream of digital recordings.  Where I must add to this is that when it comes to properly mastered CD's which have not been overly compressed and limited, you will find that the 16 bit CD technology is much better than how it has been perceived by many. Just listen to a recording on HDCD, and you will understand the huge difference. With that said, it is not the CD format that is bad, it is the poor job of pathetic studio mastering that makes these bad recordings so awful. You get what you pay for.

Presently, the manufacturing of CD from the master tape requires changing the digital audio formats 5 to 6 times in the following processes: Master Tape - Master CDR - Glass Master - Metal Stamper - Pressing - CD. The last two processes are especially important as they could make or break the sound quality. It is common knowledge to audiophiles that whether it is LP or CD, the first pressing always sounds the best. A simple experiment of duplicating a CD 5 or 6 times on a home computer will prove that the last pressing will sound much inferior to the original CD.

How then to ensure that audiophiles who have been faithfully supporting the HUGO Label can enjoy the highest level of sonic fidelity? Having identified the digital distortion problem of CD, Mr Aik has focused his research of the LPCD in the following two parameters:

1. LPCD mastering

Applying HUGO's proprietary sonic spectrum processing software system on the following procedures:

(a) Using the highest specifications to convert the original analogue master tape into a digital format;

(b) Upsampling the original digital master to the highest specifications. Thereafter, adjust the tonal density, dynamic range, bandwidth, etc., using a highly precise digital processing system. Finally the digital master is encoded into a 16 bit/44.1KHz CD format. Throughout the entire digital processing, the digital system is operating in an optimal configuration with the highest purity of the AC power supply and a highly precise, military-grade digital clock. All the equipment used were protected by a proprietary anti-vibration system to ensure that all the components and the production process are free of distortion.

Although the top-notch equipment can effectively benefit the mastering production, mastering process is still very much a complex manual project which requires the mastering engineers to apply their skill and artistry meticulously at each step of the process. It is therefore not just a simple technical "transfer" from one medium to another. It is hardly surprising that the mastering of a LPCD takes a laborious 20 studio hours!



2. LPCD Production

The primary objective is to minimize the signal distortion of the digital laser reading system embedded in the CD player, and the "over-correction" by the signal correction system. In addition, a specially treated material is used to eliminate the diversion of the laser beam; thereby improving the accuracy of the laser output signal, enhancing the stability of the disc rotation, reducing the rumple and flutter rate. All of these help to reduce the pressures on the CD servo-system which otherwise can generate signal loss and distortion.

After numerous experimentation, the above process is finally adopted to produce the LPCD. What is presented to audiophiles is a disc which is many times more precise than the ordinary disc. Very fine artistry is put into the stamping / pressing processes as well as the digital format change processes to eliminate any significant noise intrusion. Special material is also used to help preserve and enhance the durability of the LPCD.

Hugo Productions not only produces its own LPCDs, it also provides the technical expertise to other companies or producers to manufacture the LPCDs on the premise that the recordings qualities are of the highest level.

LPCD products are classified into two categories, i.e. LPCD33 and LPCD45. LPCD33 is a specially manufactured CD product whereas LPCD45 is the top-of-the-line audiophile master product that is built on the best CDR master specification. Consumers need to ascertain whether their CD players could playback the CDR before they purchase the LPCD45 discs.

Now, there is no need for audiophiles to slave over their LP players. Audiophiles also need not be tortured by the noise and wow and flutter of the LP and yet still able to enjoy the highest sonic quality equivalent to an LP system. Come and enjoy the wonder of music and sound effects brought to you by LPCD.

Now I am going to introduce you to a few very special albums which were created using this process. I am very fortunate to own them.
































I only wish that every CD that I owned was created with this process and with such pristine quality! These are indeed very special and now the standard for excellence!


 My take on what was claimed by Mr. Aik who developed this process.


The main objective here is that this process is supposed to make the digital format as close to vinyl LP preservation as possible, without all of the associated problems common with vinyl records.

From my perspective after evaluating these titles on a high end system within a well balanced acoustic environment, I can honestly convey these thoughts. As someone who has owned a high end audiophile grade vinyl system in the past, with a massive collection of 180 and 200 gram virgin vinyl audiophile pressings from the best mastering transfers available, I am in a position to make that comparison in a reasonable manner based upon experience.

I will have to give Mr. Aik much deserved credit as he has accomplished something very special here which I have yet to find ANYTHING  that can compare on this level.  I have owned SACD players in the past with many SACD titles. The strong point is that they have a very high dynamic presence. But what Mr. Aik said about SACD's and the way that they compare to vinyl records of high quality is something I have to agree on. I find them edgy, bright, and just a bit too sterile for my taste. A high quality 200 gram vinyl record sounds much more natural and far less fatiguing when listened to at high levels of volume. There is a form of vibrant presence within the vinyl LP which I just don't feel as strongly with the SACD format. A smooth sense of relaxed ambience is the best way for me to compare a well executed vinyl system by direct comparison. If you are using solid state amplifiers, I can imagine that factor being even more complex.

What Mr. Aik has accomplished with this LPCD process actually provides the listener with the best of both worlds. There simply is nothing more that could have been done to provide a higher quality offering than what he has created with this process.

It is my opinion that even the most discerning LP audiophile would be hard pressed to find fault with these offerings. I am sure at that point, everything is simply subjective based upon each and every listeners perspective. If someone completely refuses to believe that a digital format can in any way compare to the finest vinyl, then I have to believe they are simply refusing to accept the possibility of this being so. I used to hate the sound of digital until I finally found the right equipment and recordings to change my mind about that. I know the truth now.

That smooth presence within the ambience that I talked about is something that is almost identical between a high end vinyl system and this LPCD process from the master tapes. I find absolutely nothing fatiguing about these recordings. I can find zero fault, or anything that I could remotely consider being a negative aspect about these LPCD offerings. The clarity and detail is as incredible as hearing natural sounds directly from the source in real time. This is like that dirty window analogy. Forget about the window, it doesn't even exist here. Very natural, and very believable within it's pristine preservation of the music as it was created in the studio. The dynamic range is stunning to say the least. You get a full bodied presence with a vibrant feel as though the music was alive. The embodiment of tone leaves nothing to desire here. Just simply impressive to say the least.  I have to conclude by saying without doubt, that these are most likely the finest recordings in the digital format ever created. I would be hard pressed to believe otherwise. That would be an almost impossible feat to pull off.


I will be covering my impressions of HDCD and K2 mastering within the digital format next. These in my opinion are the next best sounding creations that I have heard by comparison. So there are many well produced digital offerings out there. One just has to sift through the garbage to find them. I have quite a few standard grade titles that are so bad, I simply won't play them. Those are good for mainstream equipment where the listener wouldn't know the difference anyway, and most likely doesn't care. On a high end system, they are like watching a really bad B movie on an old tube TV with bad reception from the rabbit ears.  On the other hand, when you find well produced offerings, the result is very rewarding.


And of course, this is merely my opinion. I believe that I have made a fair and accurate evaluation concerning these comparisons. Your mileage may vary!

At any rate, just sit back, relax, and above all else, enjoy the music.




[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/30/24 at 05:29:14

First, I will show you some of the HDCD titles that I currently own and highly recommend. I will be covering each of these in individual evaluations later on.































The next images are of another special format called HMCD.









Dire Straits (Love Over Gold)





And now, these are some of my K2HD mastered titles that are very high quality.












And a few Telarc titles:




I have a good size library of Classical music on the Telarc audiophile grade label. I will cover those at another time.



And then there is that Qsound recording technology which is really quite special to experience.





The remainder shown here are of my premium grade recordings in the standard CD format. Some of these are so well produced, that they compare with High grade HDCD titles. These are the examples of CD's which have proven just how good a standard CD can sound if mastered correctly.










































































































That is just an example of my better titles within the inventory. I have many, many more than this.

So with that, I shall wrap it up tonight and get back to continue this another time.


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 09/30/24 at 20:37:21


Well, I just couldn't help myself and caved in for a great purchase on ebay. I noticed this unit for sale a few days ago and have been considering it. The seller offered me a discount so I decided to jump on it. It is rare for these to show up at a decent price and in excellent condition with the manual. I am going to use this device as a reference for comparing three dimensional imagery within the room.


What did I get?

A Carver C9 Sonic Holographic Generator for a mere $175.00!  Finally I will have this unit back in my hands to get rid of this cross-talk nuisance. It will be very interesting to see what this does for my music. I already know what to expect since I had this circuit in the past. But it will still be fun to find out.





I should receive this unit in a couple of days since it comes from Indiana close by.  If everything works out, expect to hear upcoming music evaluations using this circuit to eliminate inter-aural cross-talk from the speakers.

Now I have to order some more Nuetrik RCA connectors to fabricate two more sets of audio cables. I have this really nice Japanese microphone cable that has been sitting around for years, just waiting for a purpose. Now I will get to hear how good these are as well.

I knew that as rare as this find is, I would be kicking myself for not getting it while I had the chance.

Live for today and hold no regrets!

8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/01/24 at 01:53:28

I want to make a comparison between two different versions of the same title. What I am about to discuss clearly shows how gimmicks within marketing are purely driven towards profit, with actual quality being an afterthought.

When it comes to this whole deal with "remastered releases" which have been a huge marketing push in the industry over recent years, it has come to my attention that many of these re-releases are actually inferior to the original release or at best, absolutely no better. As long as these studios continue to insist on heavy compression, and the use of limiters within the process, the end result is always going to be absolute garbage!

They promote these as being something "special" with the promise of being superior to the original. They seem to market these releases for the mainstream who prefer using downloaded music anyway. Most people who buy these CD's don't know the difference and don't really care due to their systems not having the potential to hear beyond these recordings anyway. This compressed recording probably sounds great to most people with average systems.

But when a real system puts one of these remastered titles to the test, we find out with bitter disappointment just how much of a let down this so called superior recording really is.  I have discovered this with several titles. Not all re-releases are bad, as some actually do offer an improvement over the original release.  The way I see it, this is just another excuse to market the same old recording over again to generate new sales from it.

What I am about to review is a prime example of this situation.

I discussed in the previous post about purchasing the series of remastered titles from the "experienced" set of Pink Floyd in 2011.

The remastered version of Dark Side Of The Moon was decent, but as I said, I found earlier versions on the Mobile Fidelity productions to be better. They did something in the process that actually took something special away from the studio master tapes.  I believe much of this is lost in the process of going from pure analog to pure digital. The original versions were 100 percent analog.

Now as far as this title is concerned, I still find it to be very good, but I would still prefer to have the original.

For the remastered title (The Wall) which was originally mastered in November of 1979, there was never anything wrong with that original release in my opinion. But when it was remastered/processed in 2011 and re-marketed with this experienced marketing ploy, it clearly was not mastered correctly. It suffers from heavy compression and limiting across the entire frequency spectrum. There is a huge loss of dynamic range and tonal balance. It seemed to me that a good deal of delicate spatial information was lost as well. Trying to listen to this version was dull and uninteresting. This is one good example of what I am talking about. I found this to be very disappointing to say the least. Just another example of how corporations take advantage of the consumer.

Fast forward to the present.

I showed you the new version of this title which was created by a new technique called LPCD 1:1 masters. I recently aquired a copy of this title and hoped that it would sound far better than the previous remastered release in 2011.

Now here is the funny thing. From what I can gather, this new version was derived from the same studio that created the 2011 offerings. The remaster was created by James Guthrie and Joel Plante at das boot recording in 2011 as is stated on the back of my current version. I am going to assume that since the experienced sets were also marketed in 2011, that this mastered version must be the one and the same.

So if this being the actual case, this baffles me as to what went so wrong from one version to being so superior many years later. That tells me that the actual remastering process did not fail, it was due to something else. That version released in 2011 was a complete failure by comparison of what I have today in the LPCD form.

I am going to discuss the differences between these releases now.

I need to state that I accidentally showed this album version in the previous post for premium standard recordings with an A rating. Obviously this was a mistake as this title should not have been there. Just ignore that I did that.


Here is the remastered release from the experienced edition marketed back in 2011.







If you look, you will see that this title has the same studio credits as the current one created with the LPCD process.

So this confirms that both of these versions used this very same master tape created back in 2011.  What I can tell you is that they did a spectacular job in the studio as proven by the recent release. So I have no idea where this release failed down line of the master tapes. Why someone would make the bad choice of marketing this album with deliberate reduction of quality is beyond me. I am sure that the average consumer thinks that the experienced release sounds great, but audiophiles with high end systems know the difference all too clear.

This is not something that just sounds a little bit better with what someone might describe as certain little things that are noticeable, no, not by a long shot.

I think that most listeners will find this version okay from their perspective. I thought it sounded good enough, but it clearly was lacking dynamic range. An album like this without dynamic range is pointless to experience because it simply lacks what should be there. I would have to turn up the amplifier volume well beyond what I normally use just to try and get some dynamics out of it. Increasing the volume only goes so far before it becomes apparent that the gain level is quite limited in output.

Now here is what makes the realization of this all too well. Let's just see how much of a difference between the two versions can possibly really be.

Here is the recent release created with the LPCD technology.





I expected the dynamic range for these LPCD titles to be very powerful, so I restricted the volume level to less than what I normally use. Definitely far less than what I was using with the "experienced" release.

When the music began within the very first moments, I think that I may have been stunned a bit by what I was now experiencing. What this title produces goes way beyond what I thought was generally missing from the other version. It sounded as if Nick Mason's kick drum was in the room in front of me....tight solid whacks so deep and powerful that I could feel my guts vibrating with every vibrant attack hit. It seemed so realistic that it was easy to imagine him playing drums in the room.  This was with reduced volume set to around one third or less of the ToriMK3's power range.

His drum line keeps your mind well focused as your body feels the percussion with absolute realism. Cymbals as clear and focused as one could expect. Detail...Let's talk detail.  Mind you, I was 18 years old when this album was released. I have heard this album on many different sound sytems over the years, most likely several hundred times. So I have every detail of it well memorized and burnt into my brain.

Now, for the first time, this was like hearing a new album altogether.  My initial impression and response from what I was feeling from this new recording was very strong from a somewhat surprised perspective. After I took in a few chords from the bass guitar, and felt the rhythm and power of the percussion, I just kind of thought...DAMN....UNFREAKIN BELIEVABLE!!!!  I was extremely gratified with what I was hearing and feeling now from this new title, quickly realizing just how fortunate this find really was.  What immediately came to mind was this. Why could the other studios not have even come close to what I am hearing now? What kind of losers do we have that are responsible for creating such weak trash from the other labels!! Finally, I have heard the reality of this album's depth and detail with absolute full bodied tone and dimension. The dynamic range extends beyond human hearing I am sure. There is so much hidden detail flowing effortlessly from this new version that it is hard to believe I never heard any of it before in all those countless times I listened to this album.  It seems as if they added these effects and extra detail in the recent mastering, but I know that did not happen. That information was always in the original studio recording. It was just never revealed to me before. For all of you that have heard this soundtrack many times like I have, I can tell you that very few if any of you have ever heard it the way this title sounded to me when I first heard it on this new LPCD format. I imagine that only the people who have heard the original master tapes would have heard this information prior to this LPCD release. This experience will really enlighten you as to what is going on in the record business.

It goes way beyond just dynamic range and detail with this version.  For the first time, I was allowed to hear the three dimensional detail which extended way beyond the 180 degree sound stage, well behind me just as with Dark Side Of The Moon. I never realized this information even existed before hearing this title in the LPCD format.  There were a few times that I just looked with disbelief at what I was hearing from around the room. Talk about being deceived. I had been run off the rails of deception with this album over the years. This is one remastered version that any Pink Floyd fan needs to hear in order to find out what it really contains within the studio master tapes. There was a new breath of air in the higher frequencies with extended focus which I know was heavily masked in prior versions of this album. When you experience David Gilmour's guitar playing in "Comfortably Numb" there is a strong presence of vibrant embodiment which just takes over your senses, tugging deep within your emotions.

That alone makes this album far superior to any other release on the market. Music that connects and takes control of your inner most feelings.

This is what this album had done to me as I sat there totally engaged by its mesmerizing connection within my mind. I believe that is the emotion which Roger Waters and David Gilmour had hoped to be so apparent within the listener as they created it. There is something about Gilmour's playing that releases my mind from everything else, as if I had an out of body experience, free from all boundaries. To this day, he is still my favorite guitar player and vocalist.

Between "Comfortably Numb" and "Wish You Were Here", I can't think of any other song ever created which effect me with such strong influence the way these titles do. Simply my go to place when I need to just get away from the nonsense in this world.

I think that I got my point across and well received about this issue. I am sure that I am not the only one who notices this situation.

Not all albums are created equaly, that is a fact. The label most guilty of inferior mastering comes from MCA in my opinion. The majority of my bad CD's that aren't worthy of listening to are on the MCA label. I have some that are acceptable from that label, but many more that are quite shameful to say the least. I try not to buy anything on the MCA label if I can help it. They have no clue as to what it takes to produce a high quality recording from my experience.

An example of this would be the third album released by the group Boston. The first two releases were produced on the EPIC records label. They sounded fantastic, as good as any standard CD I have heard.  Then they switched labels with MCA producing the album "Third Stage".  I am pretty sure that the poor mastering of that album marked the end of such great promise this band had.  The dynamics simply are not there. The detail is limited, really sounds like someone pulled a sweater over the speakers. Just a complete letdown by quality standards. Had some great songs on that album, too bad I can't enjoy them the way they should be heard. As I recall, it seems that the vinyl version of that album sounded better, but nothing as it should be if mastered properly.  That type of thing is inexcusable. The consumer deserves better.

So moving on, I will continue to review other CD's that I feel are at least upper B grade and mostly A grade. These range from being standard mainstream titles, on to limited release audiophile recordings.


Always know that when life can be a bit too much, there will always be good music as your best qualified therapist.



[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 10/01/24 at 02:50:15
Very cool and interesting speaker design. The rear resonators utilizing the bass porting system out the front is very unique. The woodworking on this complete unit is top notch as well. Bravo!

Your future plans for a modified headwrecker speaker sounds intriguing. Are you sure you weren't born to design, manufacture, and sell high-end speaker systems? lol  

I found your discussion of the LPCD format very interesting. I hadn't heard of that before. I own an SACD but that's as far as I've ventured. I agree that the SACD format isn't as great as some people believe and I find it can be a little bright as well. However, I have a cheaper Sony model, and the internal DAC isn't that great in it so that's probably why. I don't use it much anymore, instead going with my CD transport through my streamer/DAC (modified) and that tends to sound better. I'll definitely be looking into LPCD.

Congrats on getting another Carver C9. Things just got more interesting I bet. Should be a lot of fun.

Looking forward to all the comparisons that are about to come our way.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/01/24 at 05:21:48
Well good evening mrchipster.

Thank you for the compliment, that does mean a great deal.

I pulled out all the stops when designing that model. This was created for commercial purpose, but I never pursued it due to funding. I truly believe that if my current audio room with these speakers were to be an open audio shop for people to come experience, I would conservatively say that perhaps 8 out of ten people would want to buy them, but most likely that figure would actually be around 4 out of ten. Not because they don't like them, but because of the high cost of manufacturing these at this quality, then adding up the retail markup, my profit margin...etc. These speakers would easily demand a retail price of $7500 minimum to perhaps close to ten grand. They are very complex and they take a great deal of man hours to complete. With double wall construction as planned using expensive Baltic birch plywood, this alone drives up the cost tremendously.  Every time that I hear these, I am reminded of the fact of how much these would be in demand if I ever placed them on the market. If I personally built each and every pair sold direct to a customer, then I could reduce that price per pair substantially. When I compare other speakers on the market and the price they demand, I know that my design is better than many of these, and far better built. Naturally I would price them accordingly by actual value. But as it is today, I just take pride in knowing that these are the only set in existence, and they belong to me. That makes owning them a very unique experience. The future is optional as to where this direction goes.


As for my intentions for a reduced modified version of the lil headwreckers. I have decided to let that idea go for now. I recently had an engineering epiphany that is calling me in a different direction.

This was not my intent. It is something that just hit me and I instantly began forming images of a new design in my head. A new design which will make up for the in-wall dissatisfaction. Now just know that I am extremely pleased with my Qforce speakers in the room now, but I just can't keep from coming up with new ideas. So I am not doing this because I feel the need for new or better speakers. I simply want to try something else and compare notes.

Let me tell you what happened the morning this all came into mind. I received a flyer from parts express with the latest buy out drivers. I live only 35 minutes from parts express, so I can actually drive there anytime that I want. I have amassed a large surplus of drivers and other items from them as a result of annual tent sales where items can be picked up at a fraction of the original cost. This helped me to realize what I have in stock, and what I could design and build from what I have.

From that flyer, I noticed that they had some very interesting Eminence woofers being sold at very low prices being a buy out of inventory. I locked my eyes on target with one certain 15 inch woofer from Eminence that started it all. Neodynium magnets, paper cones with cloth surrounds, 8 ohm ratings and get this, a whopping 98.9 db rating @ 2.83 v/1m !!  Oh yes baby, this just became the basis for my new design. I am going for extreme efficiency in the new system. One that will produce high levels of sonic bliss being driven by something as small as a SET amp under 10 watts. I love that idea, don't you?  So what to do for a design...let's think about that.

I just happen to have boxes full of drivers, but what can I actually use to maintain the high level of efficiency that I want. For that, I have two choices. First, I have a set of 8 Dayton Audio PT2C-8 Planar 8 ohm drivers rated a 94 db @ 2.83v/1m. These are brand new and still in the original packages.  Second, I have 8 Peavey RD 1.6 ribbon drivers that are intended for arrays, originally designed for use in the Versarray systems that Peavey sold for professional stage settings for live performances.  These are actually built by Fountek for Peavey.

These are the Dayton Audio planar drivers.





These are the Peavey ribbon drivers.






The Peavey ribbons are the better choice here, and a better match to go with my new design.

These are rated at over 97 db 1w/1m. That clearly makes these the winner.

Now the Peavey ribbons have to be crossed over above 2500Hz, and we don't want to tamper within the 3000Hz range or higher as it is the critical midrange area.  So what that means is that a suitable midrange driver is called for to fill in within 800 Hz and 3000 Hz as a minimum.

The Eminence drivers extend up to 4000 Hz with a very smooth response. I will be crossing them over at 800 Hz with the midrange driver.

So choosing a great midrange driver that can pull this off seamlessly is going to be a challenge. It has to be at least 93 db efficient or higher, and it has to perform with a nice full bodied presence with clean imaging and a smooth frequency response.

Again, back to my personal stash of drivers. There are two choices that come to mind. I have a huge box full of Aura Sound NS6-255-8a midrange drivers that I got on a close deal. These have neodymium magnets, are 6 inches in diameter, copper voice coils and paper cones. They are 91 db at 1w/1m. That sensitivity rating goes up as you double the drivers. I would make an array of four drivers which would be wired in a series /parallel configuration. That would bring the sensitivity of this driver array up to match the other drivers. Technically, close to 6 db higher. This would also maintain an 8 ohm load rating. The reason I am considering these is because I am considering a scheme which deals with crosstalk elimination by means of driver angles in a mirror imaged offset configuration with one bank of the array being phase inverted with a time delay circuit built in to the crossover. This is intended for cancellation of the crosstalk signal. In other words, there are two rows of midrange arrays which are angled by a small degree offset from center. The outboard array would be phase inverted. The other which faces the listener would be normal phase.

The other consideration would be a much better choice for this design, but I can't use it if I decide to proceed with crosstalk cancellation. I can guarantee you that this next choice is the ultimate choice when seamless integration and a high quality factor is the main consideration.

That driver is something that I just happen to have a pair of ready for use.

The Tang-Band W8-1808 full range drivers.

8” OF FULL RANGE SPEAKER DESIGN
NEODYMIUM MAGNET SYSTEM, ALUMINUM PHASE PLUG
UNDER HUNG DESIGN, VERY LOW DISTORTION
(LOW THD)
SPL=93dB / M / W, QTS=0.44
PAPER CONE WITH FABRIC SURROUND

With a Qts of 0.44, this makes these drivers ideal for use in an open baffle system. Being at 93 db efficiency, these will mate up perfectly for my need if I choose not to pursue the other method. These don't require crossovers, but they should be rolled off gently above 10K to let the Peavey driver arrays handle the higher frequencies. They have a free air resonance of 45 Hz. Rated at 45 Hz to 20 kHz with a very smooth response within the range that I will have them crossed over at.

This is the Eminence 15 inch bass driver.

They are currently at reduced price to eliminate stock for a very short time. I got a sweet deal on them for a mere $89.00 per driver. That is a fraction of the retail value. They will not last long at that price.






And here are the Tang Band 8 inch full range drivers.






So with the bass sections. These will be designed in independent enclosures which will have a sliding insert to adjust and tune the volume to the room for perfect frequency response. They will be ported with an adjustable vent for tuning. This allows me to place each section within the room independent of the main system, where standing waves won't interfere with the performance. They can be placed anywhere within the room as long as standing waves are avoided in certain areas. This allows the main arrays to be placed where they should be and not have a conflict within the room.

This design will hit hard and with some very intense db levels. This makes these drivers a great choice for low powered amps for some respectable power levels and full bodied sound. Drive these with a Torii amp or the ZMA, and these speakers are going to sing into the stratosphere with absolute authority.


Anyway, since you got me to thinking, this was just a hint of an idea which I thought might be interesting to build.

Of course, everything is subject to change.  I doubt that I will begin working on this project until January, but you never know. I have the parts, I have the design. I just need to find the time to build them.

I will keep you informed of that progress when it unfolds.


As for the LPCD titles. These are ordered direct from Aliexpress coming from China. Takes about three weeks to get them, but very well worth it. If you check ebay, it might be possible to find one or two titles. Just do a search for LPCD and see what comes up. I have not seen any more copies of The Wall since I bought mine. Seems kind of hard to find these. My advice, if you find them for sale, grab them quickly and don't hesitate.

Interesting that you came up with the same conclusion concerning SACD's. I'm sure that they could be finessed with better DAC units, but I am satisfied with high quality HDCD's which I feel are a better choice. It is a matter of taste, and every listener has to decide what sounds best for them. I think you will do fine with your current CD system. Life is about choice. If you make a bad one, there is always another choice.

Thanks for chiming in.

Enjoy!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/01/24 at 21:00:59



Quote:
They promote these as being something "special" with the promise of being superior to the original.



They pitch this to the artist with the promise of being superior in sales to the original due to the limiting that makes it louder.  I doubt they use the word 'limiting' with the clients.

If everyone listened to music using Roon and had volume leveling turned on, they would hear what limiting has done to the fidelity.  It would flip because no track would ever be louder than any other track, it's just that some will have up to 13dB less dynamic range.  Dynamic range is everything.  So when you listen to a track with heavy limiting it sounds like a soggy piece of crap.  That would be fun because then volume wars would quickly become dynamic wars which is btw how it started out.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/09/24 at 23:05:01

So when you listen to a track with heavy limiting it sounds like a soggy piece of crap.


You hit that nail direct on the head and drove it strait in! I am laughing at that analogy because it is so true! You could not have made a better observation concerning this issue. It is pointless to have a great system and a highly refined acoustic atmosphere when all you have to play for a source recording is a soggy piece of nasty bread.  Now if I hook up the toaster, will that help?


:o   ;D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/10/24 at 00:25:01

The audio room has evolved full circle!






I quickly assembled these remaining acoustic devices to take care of the areas which still needed refinement. These are on the "crude" unfinished side because these are meant to be temporary for the most part. I had most of this material lying around so I though that I might as well put it to use. The brown binary panel was leftover from the bottom stack sheet which I intended to discard due to blow out from drilling. After evaluating the overall condition, I determined that there is enough material remaining on the backside to make this panel effective and usable. This solved an immediate need and will do fine until I replace it with something else next year.

The sidewall absorbers were something that I needed as well due to first order reflections that were not under control. These are six feet tall and are double layered with R13 fiberglass and bubble wrap in the front. For health safety reasons, this is entirely enclosed and sealed within plastic sheet. I then wrapped these with muslin cloth. The unit next to the door has wheels for easy quick movement.























































Here is a close up detailed view of the binary panel between the speakers on the front wall. You can see the ROXUL Safe-n-Sound insulation behind the holes for absorption. That material is four inches thick with a semi-hard absorptive sheet of material behind that as a backing board.





And here is my high tech Radio Shack system ready to play "the latest soggy piece of crap"

;D
















With the acoustic devices rolled into place after room entry.





And now with the devices rolled away from the door for quick easy departure.








That my friends is what it takes to make a great sounding, well balanced audio room. That is how you transform a small room into something of high quality for serious music enjoyment.


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 10/10/24 at 12:45:31
Temp improvements went well? You may just spoil me! Listening to CDs in the Charoit last night seem to be a tad cold. Thinking it might be that vinyl may have set an earmark over the last year or so. Or, maybe the ZDAK replacing Stokes DAC?
Looking forward to kick off this season's venture down the audio path with a session of yours. [smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/10/24 at 16:20:37
Yup!  And it probably cost less than your amplifier!  But even if it cost more it would be money well spent.  Wish everyone did this.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 10/10/24 at 16:45:04
It certainly takes a lot of thought and effort to get a smaller room to sound really good. Room modes and reflections really wreak havoc in small spaces.

Glad all your effort has panned out. Kudos to you RP!

I have a smaller room as well, but I took what you could call the easy way out and used pre-fab panels (absorbers, diffusors, combo abs/diff, and corner bass traps) as well as a few diy panels. I've yet to put the final two panels on the ceiling but this somewhat lame attempt at addressing the issues definitely has improved the sound quality in the room. Going into it I knew I wasn't going to be able to address the low bass which is critical for a good foundation. I just couldn't give up the real estate. Regardless, it sounds much better than before I did any treatment. My amateur attempt took a shotgun approach (with a lot of thought behind it) and I'm happy that it did make a difference. (bar the very low bass).

To be honest, speaker placement made as much if not more of a difference in my case. I've spent the last ten months trying various positions and finally settled on the spot that gives me the best imaging and soundstage. The room treatment just brings it all home. I'll be interested to hear what the last 2 ceiling panels add to the affect (if any).

I have REW measurements from before the treatments. When all panels are installed, I look forward to redoing the measurements. Not sure there will be a huge difference, but I assume it will be meaningful.
No way it will be even close to what I'm sure you're hearing in your room, but it makes me feel better that I've at least attempted to do something about it. As I've added panels and moved things around, I got to hear what was happening and the experimentation was kind of fun. Nice to try and put theory into practice.

Anyway, glad you've achieved the awesome sound you were seeking.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 10/10/24 at 16:53:59
I just read Steve's reply, and I totally agree that the money is well spent if you have the option to put treatments up. I've spent about the same on room treatments as I have for the UFO25 and would go further if I could. I'm going to enjoy what I have now but, in the future, if I can start with a larger room and better ratio, the first thing I would do is build in the treatments.

I can dream.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/12/24 at 18:20:06
Temp improvements went well? You may just spoil me!

Yes, as you are about to discover for yourself in a few days.  I am sure there will be some serious thought going on in your head on your way back home.

Everyone, JB will be taking over the prime listening spot in my audio room on Tuesday the 15th. If he gets here by noon, we will be listening and evaluating until midnight. Yes, he gets 12 hours of prime listening time in this room.  Perhaps he will share his thoughts and experiences with all of you at a later date. That is up to him. JB is welcome to say what he wants on this thread and I encourage him as well as the rest of you to do the same as long as this thread doesn't get derailed or trolled by the unwanted. I think he will have some interesting things to share with you.

It carries far more weight when an analysis of this system comes from a third party evaluator. What I say can seem to be biased by the reader. So let's hear it from JB, and then perhaps we can begin to see that what I told you is not some type of "fluff" stemming from over exaggeration.

Like I said, I can describe to you all day about what something is like, but in a matter of seconds, you fully comprehend the total package and all of it's worth with an actual experience in person.  I think this is the only way to justify how great something really is. Talk is cheap, performance is everything!

The system will be at optimum operating temperature and ready to "make it so" when you get here JB. Imagine Captain Picard on the bridge giving an order to his navigator to set the coordinates using warp speed.  His final command....ENGAGE! That will be the moment which you understand the journey you are about to embark upon in my section of "space".



See you then!

8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/12/24 at 18:51:10
And it probably cost less than your amplifier!  But even if it cost more it would be money well spent.  Wish everyone did this.


Yes, to be applied in a simplistic form. But when it comes to nuts and bolts, we know that what goes into creating a room like this is anything but simple.

"Cost" is a subjective thing. This entire project when put into perspective has nothing to do with a cost factor which is completely irrelevant when it comes to making a dream concept come true. Sure, it is important, but this really can't be judged in that manner as it really signifies nothing. A person could spend a hundred grand on a plethora of acoustic devices. But if he doesn't understand exactly what he is doing to his room, and just exactly how those modifications are going to form proper comprehension from the music, then he is simply shooting blanks in the dark and hoping to hit something.

Yes, with the exception of my speakers, everything else considered, that approximation is certainly within realistic terms. Considering that a ZMA amp costs a minimum of six grand with upgrades costing much more, and then looking at what my ToriMK3 cost new approximately twelve years ago, even then, yes, I built this room for less than that. That was strictly for the cost of materials. You have to consider what time and labor is worth. If that was factored in, then what I did to this room would exceed at least three times what my amp cost. Just look at what these companies are charging for acoustic devices. They are no better design than what I have. With my experience and knowledge about acoustics, I know that for a fact! After nearly 45 years of experience with audio, one tends to learn a few things.

The actual cost of this being a DIY project is reasonably low and very practical considering the cost of audio equipment. When we examine the ratio of return on investment, those of us that are experienced know without question that the acoustic signature of a room is the most important thing to consider. This alone will far outweigh everything else in terms of cost versus performance.

As they say, you get what you pay for.  I like to add to that by saying, you get what you put into something in proportional exchange.

That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


:D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/12/24 at 19:06:08


"if I can start with a larger room and better ratio, the first thing I would do is build in the treatments."


That my friend should be made into a monument for ALL audiophiles to read! That is where it all starts. Without this foundation, nothing else matters.


I took what you could call the easy way out and used pre-fab panels (absorbers, diffusors, combo abs/diff, and corner bass traps) as well as a few diy panels.

Totally irrelevant as to where the treatments came from, who built them, or what fancy name is on the badge. The only thing that matters is how well these devices work, and whether you use them effectively.  I am not sure if there really is an "easy way out" when it comes to acoustics.



I can dream

That is where it all starts. Don't ever stop dreaming about the possibilities. Without creativity and knowledge, there simply lies a dark void of achieving nothing in the end.



You will get there, I am certain of that.

[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/12/24 at 21:00:14
I am going to now cover one of the most critical aspects of how this entire audio project sounds as a complete package. This makes for the final addition which fills a void that I have been searching to fill, simply unable to devise a satisfying solution until now.

I showed you the Carver C9 Hologram Generator. This was my answer. This alone has done more for my music presentation and quality of perception than any other device in my system. This works in conjunction with my audio room acoustics to give it the perfect touch of reality.

You remember my analogy about true "reality" as it is perceived by your ear-brain system when you hear things in nature, in "real" time. What you hear is the real thing as it sounds without interference or deception. What this device does is exactly that. Without adding anything to the music signal, it simply focuses as a pinpoint method to cancel out the unwanted signals which are false and extremely detrimental to your natural perception of two channel stereo.

This device was built in the mid 1980's. Unfortunately, there is nothing like it in existence today being manufactured.  This is really a lost gem in the audio world.


The following is an image from the Carver C9 Sonic Hologram Generator sales brochure from the mid eighties.







This image depicts what is going on with standard audio perception using two channel stereo.






This is what Carver recommended for a good setup using this device.





This image from Carver is what they predict the outcome to be when the C9 is engaged and the room is set up as advised. This example was back then, assuming that the room has minimal to zero acoustic treatment in place. My results are far greater than this.






Carver recommended the addition of a wall treatment as a minimum behind the speakers, and along the side walls to subdue the interaction of first order reflections.





The manual made it very clear several times, that if the setup was not done the way it is recommended, and the listener is not in the sweet spot, then the value of this device can't be portrayed accurately with it's full benefit. That is common sense if you understand anything about room setup and acoustics.


Now for those that are DIY inclined and can find these parts, I am giving you everything that you need to build this device yourself if you have the skill and knowledge necessary to do this properly. You are going to have a difficult time finding those semiconductor chips.

































































Getting ready for a test flight.





This is me after I engage the Sonic Hologram Generator.





That is exactly how I feel with the Carver C9 in my audio room. A freak'in surreal experience to say the least!


See you all when I come back down.


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/13/24 at 01:43:12
As for the IC opamp chips: This unit requires five each XR4136CP opamps. The XR4136 is a quad configuiration of opamps on one chip. It is perfect for active filter designs and audio signal processing.


















Searching for this same opamp on Aliexpress turned up several suppliers of this variant. I could not locate this exact chip trying to match the lower four numbers. These are XR4136 CP which are the correct type. I am not sure about the compatibility of the lower set of numbers which do not match. Not exactly sure what those numbers represent, or if that really makes a difference as far as compatibility. If they can be substituted, then these are available and very cheap. If anyone can confirm this, please reply.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/13/24 at 02:16:37
Ordered from Mouser:  Here are the JFETS needed for locations Q1 and Q2.






You would have to find out what transformer is compatible for this design.



Other than that, should be a simple and easy unit to build.


1-800-DIY-ACME

[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Geno on 10/14/24 at 19:45:49
Hey Red Pill.

I got to experience the Carver holographic technology, back in the late 80's. I owned a Carver C-1 preamp with their M-1.0 power amp.

Before I bought the components, the audio store set them up in their sound room, for a demo. The speakers were Carver "Amazing Loudspeakers". It was quite an experience, and of course, I was sold, and had to have them.

Unfortunately, this was long before I knew anything of room treatment. And at the time, I was living with 2 roommates in a rental house, and the living room was not the right shape for a proper speaker setup.

Several times, I did move the speakers out in to the room(Klipsch Forte), and place a chair, so that I had the correct triangle setup. I could hear a little of what I heard at the audio store, but I just could not permanently place the speakers out in to the room. So, after a year or so, I sold them, and moved on.

It would have been cool to experience the holography on a regular basis.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/15/24 at 03:11:23

Hello Geno, welcome and thanks for posting.


We had similar experiences back in those days. I bought all Carver equipment back in the mid eighties up until I bought the original Carver "Amazing Loudspeakers" myself. I think that was around 1987. I remember that day like it was yesterday when I walked into that audio dealer store and auditioned these speakers. I was intrigued just by their shear size and cool looks alone. But of course, it was the experience which unfolded that sold me. I left there with a brand new pair in my vehicle. I remember those massive aluminum woofer arrays and the full length ribbon elements which were about the same height as me. They were raked backward about 5 degrees when set up. Not as efficient as I would have liked, but with enough current driving them with the needed energy to make them come alive, they were indeed "amazing" to say the least. That  was the final edition to my Carver equipment list. I had a Carver M1.5t amp, then I also had a pair of M1.0t mono block amps. If I remember right, when bridged, they output somewhere around 1000 watts per channel in mono at 8 ohms. I controlled all of this with the Carver M4000t pre-amplifier which had the time lens, and the sonic hologram generator built in. I also had the Carver CD player. But the big boy that was my pride and joy was the Akai 747 DBX Type One studio grade reel to reel with rosewood panels and black face. That was a very nice machine.

With that magnetic field technology, these amps never got hot and always sounded very clean and detailed. I can tell you that it took amps like this to drive these huge panel speakers to high sonic levels. I remember feeling waves of air pulse across the room when something of high decibel level  such as the live cannon fire from 1812 overture taxied them. I watched the cloth covers actually ripple with air pressure when those went off. These were by far, the best imaging speakers I had ever heard. I had that equipment up until 2005. Had to get rid of everything due to a major move and job change.

I think that the ZMA would have been a great amp to drive those speakers. With the oversized power supply and incredible amount of current/amperage which that amp provides, it would have done very well. Wattage doesn't matter, that is just the fuel to keep the amp burning. What makes the difference is the amperage "at the ready" with the necessary reserve power on tap to prevent overloading and distortion on some of those power hungry transient responses. The current and amperage factor is like horsepower and the actual engine behind it. The shear energy produced with sustained energy on tap is what really becomes the driving force. The wattage merely acts to feed this power demand with the fuel it needs to keep going at full pace.  People get all wrapped up about wattage ratings. Means nothing if the amp doesn't have the energy field necessary to produce the actual power on demand into a stable load for sustained periods of time.

This is what I love about the ToriMk3 amp. I could shame many of those high wattage solid state amps driving low efficient speakers, compared against this "mere" 25 watt per channel tube amp driving speakers with at least a 92 db efficiency rating. Again, wattage means nothing when we require sheer power on demand. If I cranked my current system up more than 50 percent, I can assure you that hearing damage would be imminent. The sound pressure levels are intense!

I am glad that you got to experience not only the Carver amazing loudspeakers, but the sonic hologram generator as well. You know exactly from experience just how special this unit is. I am extremely pleased to have this unit back in my system once again after all of these years.  It is one of the best kept secrets in audio. Now that I have provided the details to build a DIY version, I hope that this will inspire someone to build one for themself. I have to wonder what type of audio tube would work in place of the quad type op-amp chips.  I don't know, just wondering. I bet this design would sound incredible if done properly using tubes and a really nice transformer wired point to point. I am sure that some audiophile grade caps would make a nice upgrade as well.

Perhaps like I did, you may run upon one yourself. I recommend buying it if it is in good working condition. Mine is like new, as if it was never used. It works perfectly.  Many of these units due to age will require restoration.

I can tell you this, "cool" doesn't even begin to express what this brings to the sound signature. But I know exactly what you mean, and I couldn't agree more!


8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 10/16/24 at 17:03:45
I'll be very interested in hearing what JB has to say about his experience when he has time to gather his thoughts and elaborate. Very generous of you to offer that opportunity RP.

Looking forward to hearing what the outcome is with and without the Carver in the mix too.
The room itself is enough to manifest an awesome sound stage and live reality so I can only imagine how the Carver will add to it.

Let the good times roll.


Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/16/24 at 19:01:57

I'll be very interested in hearing what JB has to say about his experience when he has time to gather his thoughts and elaborate. Very generous of you to offer that opportunity RP.

Yes, and I knew you would be very curious to see how this all went. It is a shame that you don't live close enough to experience your own evaluation of my audio room. It would be nice if you were able to do that.

From my stand point, things went very well and it was a great day. JB is a very knowledgeable person, and most certainly on a very high level of understanding when it comes to audio and room acoustics. He is a great guy to know, and someone that you can trust to give advice. A good friend to say the least.

As for what he might say about this event, time will tell. I don't know that he will say anything, although I have a feeling that he has plenty to say about his experience. So that is up to him. I think he needs a couple of days to get his thoughts together and make sense of it all. I do welcome him to offer his thoughts about his experience, so you shall just have to wait and see.

I will get the return privilege of experiencing his audio room next spring. That should be interesting as well. I will say from my perspective, there was a great deal of thought going on inside of his head. It will be interesting to get his viewpoint.

Keep that dream alive my friend!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 10/18/24 at 13:12:48
Well RPS you pulled it off! I mean like Burger King's impossible burger your space does not warrant what was heard in the 12 hour session spent with you on Tuesday. Like the sweet beef undertones missing in that burger, even with my eyes closed, my senses could not escape the confines of the room. Small room small stage - mere physics that can not be eliminated. However, you recently added a piece of equipment that makes your room complete and defies physics.

I totally enjoyed my visit with you. Another time warp that was very hard and pressed to end. We will continue in time. I feel like your a brother from another mother now. The food was good, conversation rich, and atmosphere becoming. Thank you all.

The speakers you designed are with no doubt the best 2 way implemented set that crossed my ears. Bass is well defined and tactical. Mids play well with the lows and highs - vocals are crisp with emotional attachment. Highs are sublime with delicacy.

Feeding the 2way gems is nothing special like the 12 gauge OFC, Torii 3 with stock tubes, microphone cable ICs with one way shields, basic Brown Burr DAC, and a Tascam transport. The music heard did not show, by any means, any degradation with this setup.

Your admission of how terrible and unsustainable those 2 ways was in the room before any treatment has been cured. The 12 hour session we completed on Tuesday is proof of that. Your listen db level is a bit higher than mine and I thank you for doing a slight adjustment for my pleasure. But I think it was your need to impress that got you to turn up the volume at the onset. The sound was the same but eliminated the chance of fatigue when lowered a bit.

We listened a couple enjoyable hours with your new blast from the past piece bypassed. The only negative was Ozy's CD seemed a bit edgy at times but had great special effects. I think it had to be the mastering causing it because it was only noticeable on that disk. Then you initiated the C-9! Woweee! The hugh sound stage was not meant to be in your space. It grew by leaps and bounds. Vocals became very intimate in presence. There was zero artifacts. The performance became live. The new experience was like headphones without the cans and gave tactical body resonance! Something that tires me quickly when using headphones, that is my ears get some good vibes but the rest of my organs do not.

RPS, the only negative to me when it came to tactical experience was the dual 12" push and pull setup behind the listening chair. The timing was off a bit that distracted from the main speakers at times. This is surely caused by the direct connection with the Torii speaker outputs. A time delay would help this. It kind of reminded me of when I had transducers installed in the home theater couch which gave a sense of vibration without aligned impact.

I could go on and on about the music but will pin it down to one CD that everyone is familiar with, Pink Floyd's "Dark side of the Moon" Played to death but a well done work using "Q". The C-9 is a phasing tool that eliminates crosstalk between our ears. Yup that space between our ears is wide enough that causes our sense of hearing confusion when we hear music in stereo. RPG's C-9 is 45 years old and works like a new item. There is no signs of bypass interference to the signal and what I am about to describe works as intended.

The second act(track) "On the Run" starts with Q(time delay sceme used in many recordings that places sound in space at various locations using the space between your ears and two speakers as leverage) within 3 seconds of track start. I've always heard the mechanical sound created after 3 seconds in that track as an oblong sound circulation. With the C-9 it made its rounds perfectly around the circumference of my head. It was a hat of moving sound. Outstanding!

Then I asked you to bypass the C-9 after 6 or so hours and this was rather revealing of the unit's capabilities. Vocals became somewhat subdued. Loss of vibrancy was evident. Just to recall that I spent a couple onset satisfying hours listening with this unit bypassed is telling in itself. One does not know until it is placed at earshot side by side(A-B).

[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 10/21/24 at 02:07:34
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us JB. Glad you got the chance to have some fun and venture deep into a unique musical experience as well as share some comradery. Pretty cool that you'll be offering the same courtesy of a listening session to RP. It's nice that you'll both have a perspective into each other's listening environments.

Looks like the session sounded great, albeit initially the smaller space made it difficult to perceive a very wide soundstage. However, I'm sure the extensive room treatments made it sound as good as it possibly could be. My room is on the smaller side as well (actually almost the same as RP's but with a 10' ceiling instead of approx. 8') and I know how challenging it can be.

I thought RP's custom speakers looked phenomenal and glad you confirmed they sound just as amazing as I imagined. The build is second to none. Glad the sound is as well.

You mentioned that once the C-9 was engaged, the room took on a whole new dimension. Besides the room treatments, the C-9 sounds just like what the doctor ordered for a room on the smaller side. From what I've read about the unit I expected nothing less but I'm sure each room can help or hinder the effectiveness of such a component. Glad you found it to be an exciting and worthwhile addition!

Thanks again for the perspective JB, and congratulations RP on a great system and listening environment.
Cheers to you guys and many more great listening sessions.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 10/21/24 at 12:38:21
mrchipster,
It is a wonderful when meeting another individual that goes thru similar struggles and tackles those challenges in a similar fashion. RPS did very well in tackling his small room. Turning it into a true sanctuary - a place to regenerate ones drive. I can see where some refinement will be done. Not in the sound but in workability of daily use like a simple thing of making the light switch easier to access, etc.

What puzzled me was the fact that I listened 2 or so hours before the C-9 was activated. It sat there idle in bypass mode. The sound already very impressive. When it was switched in, the sound stage widened a bit. The result was too wide creating a hole in the middle. I mentioned that to Paul and then he switched it to narrow from wide mode and wala it tighten up and the walls disappeared! Other then the two modes mention of the C-9 there is a theatrical mode that adds some echo. The echo seemed gimmicky and was not desired.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Tony on 10/21/24 at 16:15:18

I was not sure what "C-9" referred, and found this:

"A C-9 in audio refers to a specific type of microphone preamplifier.

It's a vintage piece of equipment, known for its warm, rich, and often slightly distorted sound. The "C" likely stands for "console," as it was originally designed for use in large studio consoles. The number "9" is a model designation"

Is that correct?

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Lon on 10/21/24 at 16:18:41
Tony, in this case I believe the Carver C-9 Sonic Holograph Generator is what was referenced.

https://www.highfidelityreview.com/carver-c9.html

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/29/24 at 01:35:45


Thanks to all that replied and your input is valuable.

Thank you JB for your honest opinion concerning your listening evaluation.

Although we are a bit apart on what you and I get from this room in a couple of aspects, it has to be expected that for many reasons, none of us ever see or hear things identically, or in the same degree of "absoluteness".

I can tell you this, I bent the law of physics as far as one could ever expect too do while confined to limited room dimensions such as what I am forced to deal with. Like many others, my options are limited, and I have no other choice. We simply have to make the best of what we have and learn to accept that reality. If I were to take all of my acoustic devices down to the much larger fireplace room downstairs, taking advantage of that more ideal space, then naturally, just by getting closer to golden ratio dimensions alone would make a huge improvement. That is not going to happen in my house as long as the wife has anything to say about it. I have thought about this so many times, but always knew it could not happen. If I were single, this would have been the audio room setting from the start.

So yes, It is hard enough to make a room my size even remotely good for music, let alone making it sound like a huge open space. If you want a huge open space, set your equipment up outside and your problem is over. Not sure how long that would last with the neighbors. It would get old very fast having to keep bringing that equipment back into the house after every listening session. But if you expect the best outcome, that is the only true approach to a completely natural and untainted soundfield. No need for acoustic treatment in a natural setting.

If anyone fails to understand why I went to such great lengths with the acoustic treatment in my audio room, the answer is obvious and absolutely necessary to make a room with almost square dimensions transform into something acceptable, let alone high end. I guess I found my "fulcrum" between these two points as a leverage of balance where I can live with it and be content. Without this extreme level of acoustic transformation, this room simply could not be used for music.  It is pointless to design a perfect racing car only to drive it on a washed out dirt road full of ruts and holes. The results are very limited and nowhere near ideal.

If you had heard how terrible this room sounded before treatment, you would understand exactly just how much I improved this room with what I did. Yes, there are limits to boundaries and perception of space, and every room is going to be bound by those limitations. As stated, we are governed by the laws of physics which we simply can't magically influence. The difference is to make the space within your boundaries sound comforting, and in agreement with what you hear WHILE understanding those limitations.

I am more concerned with the element of natural sound that freely expands in all directions "within" these understood dimensions where so many acoustical conflicts come into play. The acoustic war is a tough battle to conquer. There will always be limitations and compromise within any listening room, no matter how well designed it is. Like I said, if you expect perfection, then you better take it outside.

My main concern is the control of room modes within this almost "impossible" room size. As you know, a square or round dimension is the absolutely worst case scenario you could build from.  I corrected my situation by virtually "removing" the walls with acoustic friendly "walls" which actually work in harmony to reduce the effect of standing waves. As I told you in the past, my revised room dimensions fall well within Bolt's range. There are rooms much larger than mine that don't even do that! Volume is not the whole story, it is the actual dimensions that make the difference in controlling a reasonable degree of decent acoustics. A room like mine requires a massive degree of absorbent while at the same time having to make sure the room isn't rendered acoustically dead. This is the absolute worst situation to engineer and do it right.

I want to make a note concerning the latest room change I made prior to the listening evaluation.  I had no time to evaluate this addition prior to the listening session. I really had not the time yet myself to evaluate the change.  My observation is this during the time JB was listening to the new setup. I sat in a location at the farthest rear point in the room (NEVER RECOMMENDED DUE TO BASS BOOM), sitting up on the ternary diffuser platform about three feet above the normal listening position, directly behind the perfect listening "apex" sweet spot where JB was at.

I quickly realized that from the time before I added the final sidewall absorbers and the huge binary diffuser at the front of the room just before this visit, this area used to sound very muddy and quite awful at the rear of the room. This is normal in any room due to the characteristics of standing waves in a room.  **Note: this is why the 38 percent rule is so very important, and so very accurate in practice. I have proven this concept to hold great weight within its theory. The worst areas are always going to be at the front of the room, the rear of the room, and the center of the room. You always want to avoid those areas at all costs.

The negative aspect of this change which I now realize, the sound-stage is restricted as a result of the massive sidewall absorbers I just placed in the room. I lost the needed reverberance that was responsible for the wider sound-stage and sense of "space" that I was accustomed to before.

This is counter productive to the very reason why I placed these there in the first place. The intent was to eliminate first order sidewall reflections which smear the timing in music, and also place a veil upon the perception of that actual space. This should have increased the perceived degree of spatial imaging. What JB has detected, and now with my listening tests conducted since he left here, have brought me to the conclusion that what I heard before, and what I hear now are NOT the same degree of spatial expansion. The sound quality is great, detail and bass response is superb. I am however baffled as to this outcome. The only thing I can conclude is that the addition of these massive wall absorbers actually killed the robust reverb factor with over absorption. This just goes to show how easy it is to go too far with room treatment, or not implementing the correct acoustic treatment for a certain target area.  This really is a double edged sword that can cut either way. My conclusion to this test is that I was better off without the sidewall absorbers.

So, getting to the point with the latest acoustic additions. I expected this area where I sat in the rear of the room to be a "less than acceptable" spot to enjoy the music. That is why my listening chair isn't placed there. But that night, I was amazed to discover that not only did this area sound reasonably good now, but I was clearly hearing the robust presence of spatial detail at every point around the room, including an area that seemed to be at least three feet behind my head. ( and I was sitting behind JB's sitting position in FRONT of me! ).

Why is that anything special you may ask? Because my head is placed directly against the hard surface of the huge diffuser I am sitting against. There is NO space behind my head at all.  So you see, the space DOES actually extend beyond the physical restraints of the room dimensions. This may not become clear to you within a very limited degree of listening experience in this room, or within a very limited degree of musical variations which may, or may not provide the material needed to convey the extensions, or limitations, within the musical soundfield as portrayed in the recording. You can only hear the recording the way it was produced. Many recordings sound flat and restrained, no matter what the room situation is. They were produced to be heard that way. When certain phasing effects are purposely implemented within the musical canvas, then that is when it should also be conveyed within your room in that same degree as long as the acoustics are good.

We also have to consider our hearing limitations and variations of perception between one listener and the next. We simply do not all have the same degree of hearing potential, nor the same degree of perception. I guarantee you that no two people on this planet have the same hearing characteristics.  I would love to have a couple of young people around twenty years old listen to the same thing we were subjected to in this room. I think the results would be quite interesting in regard to my statement concerning auditory fluctuations between all humans. As we age, our hearing suffers tremendously through that progression of time. Even though the critical factors of music are within the 40Hz to 8 kHz range, the range which extends to perceive the delicate nuances of higher frequencies ( specifically the "air" factor ) are well above this frequency range. The critical harmonics that make up so much of what defines a great audio system are also within this higher range. Most men can't hear much above 14 kHz after the age of 50. Many can't hear above 10kHZ. That is just the facts of life. Anyone that thinks they have much better hearing than that needs to take a professional audio-gram in a booth with actual test equipment. I think you will be shocked with the results.

I can assure you that a young person under the age of twenty can hear everything that lies within the music. They are the one's who are truly qualified to know just how good a music evaluation really is.  I know very well that I no longer have this upper range of hearing. The last audio-gram I had from an official testing center was at the age of 32.  I am proud to say that the tester was surprised at how intact my hearing ability actually was at that age, as that is certainly not typical. Even at that age, with well protected and preserved hearing, it is expected for a male to have a range limited to usually no more than 16 kHZ, at best.  Take into consideration, dangerous noise levels resulting in premature, and permanent hearing damage, and this affects many of us even more than just natural age degradation alone.

I had an even balance which clearly ran strong to not only 16 kHz at that time, but with some extension up to 18 kHz which is simply remarkable and rare. I expect that if I were to test again now, I would be restricted to 14 kHz or less "best case" scenario. If you can top that at the age of 63, then you are one very lucky individual to say the least. A professional audio-gram is the only way to prove it. I remember having to actually hold my breath just to make sure I could register the delicate faint signals that were played with the headsets. I would not have heard those upper limit registers if I masked it with my breathing.

My point of this is to support the fact that our hearing potential is what actually governs our perception of quality, space, and time.

I can assure you that the limitations of being denied the upper frequencies are in direct relation to what can be detected in a "spatial" environment.

Just a simple fact of life that can't be denied. I wish I had the hearing potential of a sixteen year old. If I had, I know there are many things going on in this room that I just can't hear. And with age, that factor only declines.  And that is where the laws of physics really apply.  This is why that I understand my limitations, knowing that my limited perception is not entirely reality, only a certain "portion" of the whole. I can only offer my opinion based upon what I can detect, nothing more, nothing less.

And of course, we could get into the shapes of the human ear, and all of the variations which makes everyone unique in that form. Like the fine tuning of a delicate instrument, the shape of our ears and the structure within that complex are in effect, bound to the degree of "tuning" that nature gave us at birth.  There are some of us who are born with perfect pitch. Many others are not. So many variables, so many degrees of separation. I always think about the situation with Beethoven. One of the great masters of music, with his greatest works created within a world of deafness. I see that comparatively as a world class racing champion who just happens to be blind!  Some things in life are just plain defiant within reality, yet so amazing within the outcome which can't be denied.

Please do not take this personally, this is just the card life has dealt us whether we like it or not.

In the end, we all have opinions, and we all have different degrees of perception within our visual acuity, or our auditory acceptance. The result always leads to a debate it would seem. Sometimes we just have to "agree to disagree" and accept that. Just be happy with what you have and everything is just fine.  I know that I for one am very satisfied.


Now, leading on to something much more interesting at this point in time. There really is something special about the Carver C9 Sonic Hologram Generator. As JB now himself has had the newfound experience with what this unit offers at virtually very little cost, is yet another defined moment  in which to suggest that this circuit warrants a new life in which to enhance the quality of our music.  I believe this is the time to reintroduce this circuit to the audio community and do so in a refined upgraded version that makes the cut for audiophile grade.  There is not a more effective means at such a low cost to rectify the horrible restrictions which cross-talk creates from stereo speakers. You only have to experience it to really understand and appreciate the huge improvement offered. If a 45 + year old stock unit still in original form can provide this factor of acceptance, just imagine what an upgraded version with high quality parts could do. This circuit warrants all 1 percent precision components due to the required balance of the circuit to work effectively as intended.  MADE IN THE USA....and there you have it. That was the America I remember. The chips are still available with better quality alternatives from Texas Instruments as an upgrade. Installing a higher grade transformer and audiophile grade caps will certainly make a difference. My conception towards a new upgraded version of the Carver C9 would have the push button controls removed and replaced with a variable means such as stepped attenuation for both the level of "Injection Ratio" and the width of the spatial generator. With a wide range of accurate stepped positions, the degree of tuning is extensive and precise with far greater control, with full accuracy across a much wider degree of precision.


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Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/29/24 at 04:56:22

I can't believe I accidentally closed the page I was on after writing an extensive amount of information here that I was about to post!

I will just have to rewrite what I can recall and make do with that.

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Okay, let me start again.

Back a few years ago when I had SET mono blocks and a very high end vinyl system along with my ARCAM Alpha 9 ring DAC CD player, I decided to build some high quality cables using the best materials available and fashioned the way the top cable producers were using geometry in the most expensive esoteric cables offered in the market.  These all were way too expensive for my consideration at retail prices.

I assembled many different types of configurations using both high purity heavy gauge copper and also medical grade high purity silver conductors which cost me hundreds of dollars for a small spool back then. That same spool would cost upwards of thousands $$$ in today's market. Silver is prohibited for use at today's cost unless you are wealthy.

I built a set with only twin conductors running in a parallel twist configuration around a cotton core. These were then wrapped in a wax coated cloth sheath and terminated with the finest WBT connectors. No shields, and minimal insulators which was as close to air as possible. Then I constructed a set of speaker cables that were a hybrid version consisting of high purity oxygen free copper and pure silver conductors running in tandem. I built one set without shielding, the other with metal shielding and a aluminum faced wrap like they use for underground cables. The ground shield was terminated before signal contact to prevent any noise or interference to pass through. So in short, I had variations to compare and see what differences these changes made to the sound signature.

In conclusion of these tests, I found the pure silver cables to be far too bright and revealing. Ultra detail, but at the cost of fatigue. As I recall, I found the minimalist cables without the shielding to sound the best, and I did not have issues with ground noise or EMI/RFI interaction.

What I liked the most was the hybrid version using a combination of copper and silver to balance things out. Wrapping the conductors with bees wax saturated cloth seemed to be the most honest and pleasing version that I tested. Very smooth and appropriately revealing without glare or fatigue. These had ultra clear detail and nothing missing within the presentation. So I know from past experience what can be expected from various cable geometries, and what difference the quality and type of material can make to the overall signature. Like everything else that I owned, all gone and in the past.

So with that said, moving on to the present.

After JB left here from his visit, I got to thinking about the quality of my speaker cables and realized that there could be some major improvement here for very little cost. My experimental mindset came back online and I got busy with an idea. I wanted a set of high end flat ribbon cables that have an almost air like type of insulator in a minimalist form. These have to be at least 16 feet long and they must be heavy gauge with high purity copper as a minimum. I have a stockpile of high quality foil inductors in the shop that are collecting dust. Logically, I knew that these inductors would provide the perfect material for the conductors. I selected a set of Jensen WAX coated high purity copper foil inductors which are 16 GA @ .22 mH. The flat ribbon is .75 inch wide. When unraveled, the total length of each inductor equals just over 17.5 feet when folded in half to make two conductors for one cable. I wrapped these bare ribbons in wax paper and then applied a strip of wide vinyl electrical tape between them for insulation. These were  then slipped through a cloth like heat-shrinkable sheath which is over an inch wide but flat. The ends are terminated with heavy duty pure copper spade lugs. The total length of the cables are crafted to 16 feet in length. The heavy gauge of the ribbon should be fine at that length.


So out with the old stranded copper 12 GA speaker cables and in with the new design.


At first impression, I was not sure if these were going to work out or not. The difference in sound signature was major and way too bright for my taste. I am used to the dark relaxed signature of copper cables.  I immediately thought of back when I had a SACD player and how I always found that format to be bright and edgy in my opinion. That was a prime example of why I preferred high end vinyl over digital in the first place. It took a long time for the digital format in general to become satisfactory within my perception compared to pure analog. Much better these days.

This also reminded me of my cable experimentation using pure silver conductors. Again, very bright and with an extreme degree of upper extension. To me, this is like having a spotlight shine in your face.  Realizing that the brain needs time to focus upon something new, giving it time to adjust, I knew that this needed some time before any hasty decisions were made. This was like a night and day difference in sound signature.

So I reduced the treble levels on the ToriiMK3 amplifier down to about 70 percent to bring things into perspective. Everything sounded much more relaxed and acceptable now. I also noted that I don't have to turn the amp volume control up as high to get the same decibel level and sonic impact compared to the other cables. So you know that something major is going on in improvement. That level of gain confirms that.  What I need to confirm is whether or not I will like the overall sound signature of these new cables. I am still doing listening tests. So far, these are growing on me with some very interesting results. These indeed have a much higher degree of "air" within the top end. There is extra micro-detail coming into clear focus that I never heard before. This being in the higher frequencies. Many subtle and delicate nuances are now being revealed without constraint. Yes, these are brighter due to the higher extension which is now being revealed without reservation. It is like getting your high frequency hearing back after years of being without it. There is a great deal of positive gain within these cables compared to what I was using. I doubt that I would return to the old set. The new ribbon cables are ultra revealing and unforgiving of bad source material...just like any great part of the audio chain. The speaker cables were definitely the weak link here. Not anymore.

The main reason why I chose a flat ribbon design was to test the theory of "skin effect" upon cable conductors. Supposedly the flat area of ribbon cables are to reduce that effect, providing further extension into the higher frequencies with better clarity.

Hmmm, you know what, I may just be on to something here.

You just had a lesson in science class and didn't even realize it.

I don't believe in most of the cable hype that goes on in marketing to justify the high cost of esoteric cables. It is simple logic with respect to material quality, and geometry which makes the difference. No magic fairy dust here. Just great results at a very low cost. That scores high in my book.

I am sure that there will be much more about my impressions with these cables in the future as time progresses and I get more listening time in.
I see some very promising expectations arising from this set of ribbon cables constructed from old foil inductors. Time will tell.


So here are some images of the cables I constructed. Keep in mind that I assembled these quickly for testing and evaluation. Appearance was not my concern at the time. Now that they seem to tow the line, I think some beauty treatment may be in order. First things first.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/29/24 at 17:26:38



My goal is to focus upon the creation of a modern day upgrade to the original Bob Carver C9 Sonic Hologram Generator.

NOTE: Bob Carver was removed from his own company during the late eighties. Imagine that, being fired by the board of directors from the very company he built, and provided careers for those very same A******S that forced him out!  The products that Bob created before he left the company are not the same ones that were cheaply built overseas during the latter years into the early nineties. That crap was nothing but cheap knock-offs that destroyed the Carver name.  Please be careful if you ever consider any products made in the latter years. I don't recall the exact year of his exit, but I am thinking around 1988 or 89.

Bob went on to create the company SUNFIRE, which was a major step forward in direction for him anyway.  I owned the huge mega Joule surround sound amplifier (Sunfire Cinema Grand) that he designed after that company came about. I can tell you that this amp was a major leap forward in design integrity and quality. The power that amp produced was incredible.  I believe it cost me somewhere around $5500 back then, and it only came from authorized audio dealers who strictly carried high end esoteric equipment.

You can't keep a great creator down! He is a brilliant physicist who gave us many great designs in audio back when the likes of the mainstream were dominated by the likes of Pioneer, Kenwood, Marantz, etc. Whether you liked his inventions or not, you can't deny his ability to pioneer great ideas way outside of the envelope.

Do not ever underestimate the quality or integrity of the products he created. He being a genius, which the mainstream failed showing him the credit he deserved.

DOES THIS GUY SOUND FAMILIAR? Seems there might be another audio creator with very similar talent. Perhaps you have met him.

I respect anyone who dares to think outside of the box, and doesn't hold back against the norm to bring us new and innovate ways to improve our lives.

With that said, my Carver C9 that I just acquired is indeed an original version that Bob had control over. This one is authentic. Be careful of what you buy in his name. Mine was manufactured in Lynnwood, WA back in 1986. Still works perfectly today!


So, moving on: I came up with a rendered image showing you an example of what I have in mind for a new revised model showcasing this concept.

 I may start a new thread in the DIY section to get this idea off the ground and into action. This would be a great concept for Steve to consider using the premise of the circuit technique, and upgrading it to audiophile standards which Decware is known for. This unit could be offered with a signal tube upgrade replacing the five opamps in the circuit. For a budget friendly version, a standard model using new Texas Instrument OPAMPS could be offered. The tube version would be an upgrade for an additional fee. The idea of using stepped attenuators to control the levels of the circuit are paramount in my logical opinion. This could be created in a way that makes this unit unique and every bit as good as the original design, only better and not have to worry about copyright infringement. An altered version of a patented design that old should not be a problem.

I think that a poll needs to be started to gain positive interest for this to come about in the future. It should be clear to see that a unit offered like this would have incredible interest with huge sales potential in the audio world. Anyone who understands through experience what this device brings to the table should agree with me on this without reservation. Just ask anyone who has owned this design in the past. The results are very favorable. Just my two cents thrown into the kettle. This however is one vision that should not be overlooked.

Perhaps a poll could be taken to see how much interest there really would be in this unit. It would be interesting to see how much people would be willing to pay for this unit being offered with custom options. I will tell you this, I WILL BE THE FIRST TO ORDER this unit if Decware ever brings a device like this to reality! The cost is irrelevant considering how important this device is to me.  Knowing that Steve has control over it's design, that already becomes the selling point for me to buy it. You have to consider what this device does for any audio system. You also have to consider that to the best of my knowledge, there are NO competitors which have anything like this in existence. This makes for an ideal opportunity to create something new and innovative, which I know would gain popularity very, very quickly among the audio community. I can only suggest it, Steve has to make it happen. If you think this is a good idea, then let Steve know you are interested and make it happen!


I can envision two offerings of this circuit. Perhaps a new Torii amplifier which incorporates this circuit as a whole new concept model. Finally, the only amplifier in existence which has the ability to STOP crosstalk-interference cold in it's tracks, without tainting the purity of the amplified signal.

Combined with a class A SET amp, this would be a perfect marriage and a wonderful concept.

Then of course, a stand alone unit with options that can be used in any audio system. This unit goes between the outputs of the source and the amplifier.

This would expand our audio horizons further beyond the envelope edge with a breath of fresh air.


Here are a couple of images which represent a design I have in mind. These are fictional and are only a concept. Let me know if this interests you.








As for optional stepped attenuators which really should be standard in this device for optimal control, this is a good option.






Something of this caliber would be interesting for a new design standard with this unit. Expensive, but referance quality where cost is not a factor.





Or something such as this for dedicated controls???





Anyway, just some audio food for thought.

Make your vote known. WOULD YOU PURCHASE SOMETHING LIKE THIS CONCEPT?   YES or NO


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Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 10/29/24 at 19:33:40
Hey RPS. Your speaker cable exploration caught my attention, and just wanted to say that in my cable experiments, no matter IC, PC, speaker, within the usual ranges, gauge has a notable impact on everything, but generally the so important spectral balance a big one for me. I have talked about this a lot of times here, so won't go much into it now, especially since you like to play around with these things and find out for your self.

From my experiences in this system/room, 16 from 12 gauge speaker cables, especially of the exact same wire, would make substantial differences. Not that 16 gauge is definitely small in all cases, especially where other issues make the system/room too dense, thick, and bassy. But here, with wires I have tried, 16 gauge notably reduces the lower information in the balance, which in turn reveals more mids and highs in the balance.

The speaker cables I have used for a really long time are made of 999 soft-annealed copper, 999 soft-annealed silver (I find 999 soft-annealed resolving, but softer/smoother sounding, closer to UPOCC), and one 16 gauge NOS WE tinned copper. I find multiple wires making the conglomerate gauge is really nice to tune how good metals work together. But even all the same metal, I think multiple wires tend to clean and speed things up compared to one larger wire, especially with crossing the wires exploration (in my speaker cables maybe ending up with a cross a little less than every foot?). Also with blends, I think we hear more of each wire, perhaps in part due to less skin effect and all else the electrons respond to with bigger wires. So not all gauge... Still, with my Toriis, room, and all, if my memory is correct, I ended up with 13 gauge before the balances started off-neutral toward bass weighted.

Though interested, I have not explored ribbons since these sound so good it is not a priority, and I have become pretty addicted to mixing good metals. So I can't say just how gauge would effect them, but if the bass/fullness stays a little shy, and the mids-up, a little clean, could be worth some experiments with 14 or 12. I think doubling up what you have would tell some story, but I am guessing that would change the many things beyond the spectral balance more notably than a single larger ribbon would...improving the sound or not, can't say. When I tried doubling the WE 16 wires, it brought up bass some, but not enough for me, and it hardened the mids. Three got the bass close here, and these wires do have heightened mid "flare," but three sounded way too hard mids up here.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 10/29/24 at 20:40:11
I got a C-9 in transit. Hope it is as clean as yours RPS. I do agree with your sediment of this device. It truly fixes a problem with stereo systems. One problem that is always present no matter the system - if it has 2 speakers. No hype just bare facts.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Lon on 10/29/24 at 20:47:41
Would I purchase something like this concept? If I won the lottery and/or perhaps somehow became single again (neither of those situations are likely to ever happen). Otherwise: No. I have my system the way I want it, love the sound, and am through buying components for the near (probably far) future. I am unable to treat my room, have found other work arounds that seem effective to me.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Dana on 10/29/24 at 23:05:27
You should talk to Albert at SpaceTech Labs.  I actually own the passive preamp
https://www.thebestamp.com/IR_Remote_Volume_Controls/RV-1003.php

Which is very similar to your rendering except it uses a AC/DC adapter instead of batteries but it would be a very easy to replace it with battery.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/30/24 at 18:16:43

Hello Will, thanks for your response.



16 gauge notably reduces the lower information in the balance, which in turn reveals more mids and highs in the balance.


Yes, that makes perfect sense and can't be denied concerning the electrical properties of the conductor. There always seems to be a trade off. Of course, this is where a balancing act comes into play. It boils down to a matter of taste.

I will say that so far (and I have many more hours of evaluation before the results are confirmed), that I have not noticed any major degree of reduction within the lower registers, however, there is definitely a much higher focus in the higher frequencies without a doubt.

I find 999 soft-annealed resolving, but softer/smoother sounding, closer to UPOCC), and one 16 gauge NOS WE tinned copper.


Absolutely! Like I stated, I have always preferred the darker presentation of copper for that very reason. I am very accustomed to that sound signature and therefore use it as a reference during evaluations.  I have come to the conclusion that a mixed degree of the most favorable metal formulations are what indeed create a balancing act which I favor the most. Also, there is evidence to suggest that "air" is the best insulator for a high end cable or interconnect.

Obviously, we can't have bare conductors exposed to the elements with the top reason being safety or shorting the wires.  But we can use coatings which are "air-like" that bring us much closer to that ideal form without the negative factors coming into play. Just think about the choice of materials used in expensive audiophile grade capacitors, or that of inductors, and of course, precision resistors. The thing that sets them apart is not only the choice of materials used in the construction, but in how they are designed to interact within the whole. There is a reason why foil/oil capacitors are desired so much, or the use of wax instead of oil. There is definitely a huge difference between using flat ribbons, and that of twisted cable. The characteristics of solid conductor wire and stranded conductor wire of the same gauge and purity standards have significant differences in their properties. So yes, these things matter, and they are proven to make a difference. That is a tangible set of working parameters which can't be denied. It is easy to understand why one cable is superior to another just by the logical choice of it's composition.

My problem with marketing is that they focus on Pseudoscience nonsense that can't be proven. From a logical standpoint, just "hocus pocus" set within a stage of smoke and mirrors. They prey upon the ignorance of the consumer and dazzle them with false representation that anyone with proper knowledge understands what these products really are. Just because a "magic" cable cost $1200 doesn't mean it is actually worth that, and I fail to believe that any such thing exists. Of course, if one wants to believe that, then more power to them. They just fed the deception machine with empty pockets and false promise. The problem with the audio world has always been marketing deception. "money talks and BS walks"(although the ironic thing is that BS is actually the driving force behind these products). In business, the bottom line is always what matters. They are going to gain max profits any way that they can.

The thing that matters in order for these magazine rags to be successful, is to cater to the manufacturers who spend the most money on advertising in order to fuel the revenue necessary for those "rags" to be profitable. They always base quality upon the degree of cost. If a products costs more than what a competitor has, then it MUST be better, RIGHT?  Pure rubbish and absolutely shameful!  Somehow, their product has to be clearly superior to the competitor. People are not amazed and lured in by the boring factors of metallurgy. The attention is based upon magical characteristics that are somehow going to transform their audio system by exponential degrees of improvement.

Now look, to be reasonable, would I expect cables from Monster Cable to be superior than Radio Shack? Absolutely. And should I expect cables made by Audio Quest to be superior to what Monster Cable sells? Again, absolutely! But there is good reason for that concerning the way these cables are manufactured, and the types of materials used in the construction. When we start focusing upon the higher degrees of cable production, the limitation of "return on investment" becomes absolute, and hard to prove when we talk about one cable being superior to another.

In the end, what needs to be focused upon goes back to one simple thing. You need to ask yourself, does this cable really make a sensible difference in my system for which I can truly justify it's overinflated price? If so, then congratulations, you just bought the cables perfect for your enjoyment and satisfaction. If you can honestly say that the difference is minimal and somewhat questionable, then why the hell did you waste your money on that, when it could have done much more good investing in acoustical upgrades which are guaranteed to make an improvement.

This is something that people who really want to improve their audio systems need to actually consider and understand before throwing money away on false promises.

That is another problem I have dealing with the ignorance of people who have more money than common sense. Some people are so gullible that they will believe anything that they hear, simply because they choose to. I prefer to use common sense and go with a proven winner, not some marketing hype. Look, these people have far greater issues to focus on before they even begin to worry about the quality of cables. If the room they are in flat out SUCKS acoustically, any cable, at any price, no matter how "golden" these are toted to be, are not even a factor with significance  without first correcting the very thing that is effecting the quality of their systems in the first place.

So many people would be amazed to discover just how much better their existing equipment actually sounds just by taking care of that top priority factor in the first place. This is when one can actually evaluate and know the difference between cable quality, and actually stand on the grounds of reasonable perception. Thousands of dollars invested in "supreme" cables are never going to rectify bad acoustics. Nor will the addition of the best electronics in existence.

However, once a room is satisfactory, and the orientation of equipment within the room is set up in an optimal fashion, then, and only then, can the focus upon high end cables really prove the worthiness of their design. I am not talking about the usual  response I have seen so many times that goes along the lines of "well, I think after many hours of listening, I think I heard a small change with a certain note in the music". Or they just give senseless blanket statements which really do not amount to anything tangible.  The fact is, it all comes down to Psychology. This becomes the very factor which drives the power of pseudoscience so successfully within the spectrum of marketing these products.  This goes way back to the tactics of snake oil salesmen preying upon the ignorance of people, fulfilling their hopes of finding that magical cure. We all know what they actually got, far from being any cure!


Just use common sense and practical measures. This will go a long way towards achieving that optimal goal. We all have our own personal tastes. You just have to find what satisfies you the most without being scammed by marketing deception.

And of course, it doesn't hurt to perform a little diy experimentation of your own. Remember, knowledge is power. It is that power which formulates real results. Some of the best products out there are home made. And when you look at the money saved, it just makes perfect sense.



When I tried doubling the WE 16 wires, it brought up bass some, but not enough for me, and it hardened the mids. Three got the bass close here, and these wires do have heightened mid "flare," but three sounded way too hard mids up here.


That is a great idea. I am going to consider trying that later on. It does make sense.


That was great input on your behalf. Thanks again for posting it.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 10/31/24 at 17:49:42
I would consider buying a Decware version of the C-9. Not sure what the price point would be but if it was a stand-alone unit for my purposes that would be the ideal. As long as it would fit appropriately in my chain somewhere I'd be willing to give it a shot. Using tubes in parts of the circuitry would be the Decware way and probably the option I'd prefer. With everything on Decware's (Steve's) plate, it might be a long shot, but we know how Steve likes to come up new products/concepts once in a while and maybe this would scratch an itch for innovation as well as provide a new product to continue unique and future sales. We'll see where this goes.

Also, nice experiment with the speaker cables. Seems like they may be working out nicely and with some tweaks might give you the frequency range you're looking for. There sure are a lot of variations on a theme when it comes to cables of all kinds. I agree that air is a great insulator. I have some speaker and IC cables that implement to some degree what you're discussing here. The speaker cables use stranded OFC copper to make up each individual conductor and each one is then either coated with silver, tin, or left pure copper to deliver the proper frequencies to the speaker. The cables use air pipes within to isolate and insulate the conductors from each other (high pair, mid pair, low pair). It was an intriguing concept, and I just had to try them. I'm very satisfied how they perform in my system and can see them being used for a very long time. Seems to be something to float everybody's boat and that's the fun part about this journey.

Cheers and let the journey continue.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/31/24 at 21:02:35

Hey mrchipster,


Yes, I think that you hit that nail square on the head concerning this concept being upgraded the "Decware" way for sure!

We all know that if anyone could make this happen (IN AMERICA), and with quality standards that last a lifetime, then the clear obvious choice is a well thought out design by Steve right here in Decware land. If any other company tried to offer this unit with the same quality and warranty, then the price would be far out of most peoples reach. Only a few audiophiles would benefit from owning one.

I will tell you what is on my wish list.  There is one guarantee that will influence me instantly to place an order for a new amplifier. And right now, this is what it will take for me to even consider a new amp at this time. This is the ideal opportunity to create and promote a whole new amplifier concept based upon a proven winner. Since this circuit has to be inserted directly between the source and the amplifier, this makes for an ideal concept to actually integrate this refined circuit directly within the amplifier base. The controls are minimal, and could be placed near the rear to keep things clean cosmetically. The circuit would be switched to engage or bypass from the rest of the amplifier circuit if desired. This could be a cost saving feature for someone like myself looking for something more to have a reason for another amplifier. I would buy this new amp in a heartbeat!

Look, if you just took the same Torii design that you have now, and simply integrated this circuit, then you can consider my order being taken immediately.   If you could offer this new amp version for under $7000.00, then I am in.  

I remember a time when Decware used to send an amplifier around the country for people to evaluate in-home for a limited time. Then they had to send it to the next person to evaluate. That motivated a great deal of new buyers simply because they knew from experience what they were buying. That very concept would work well for those that are curious, but need actual proof of it's worthiness in their system. There are those of us that can easily predict that outcome based upon experience. It is not for everyone, but I believe far more will want one of these. That of course is dependent upon features and price.  People, it is my belief that if a ZROCK3 sells for over $1600 such as the one I have on order, then a unit of this profound capability should easily be worth as much, or more in my opinion. And we all know how popular the ZROCK unit is.

Yes, you are right, Decware already has it's plate full, and as the waiting list confirms, a very busy schedule to say the least. But you know what, that has never stopped Steve before when a new innovation comes about which holds great merit. And to my knowledge, there has never been a product released designed by Steve that didn't live up to its promise.

If anyone seriously wants Steve to consider this, then you better step up to the plate and let him know you are interested. This might take some convincing, but I have to convince the majority to at least consider a concept like this before that next stage can unfold.

Of course, everyone is not looking for a new amplifier. For those, a simple stand alone unit needs to be offered for a reasonable price point. Either way, I strongly believe with the right promotion, this circuit regardless of how it is implemented, will gain widespread demand and therefore sales. Once word of mouth takes off, this thing will sell itself and become the basis for a new innovative device which I think most people will favor if the design is done properly. Well, we know that if it comes from Decware, you don't have to worry about that.  If nothing else, at the very minimum, I would like to see a circuit board made available with a kit including the necessary components sold as a DIY kit for those inclined to build one themselves.  I know that the CB isn't as good as being wired point to point, but if that is all we can get, fine, I will take it.

It should be obvious by now that there is strong merit behind the technology of this circuit, and still today after all these years since it's conception.  After all, when people that are hardcore Decware buyers who demand this level of quality and performance, begin to take notice of this unit, then actually try it out and stand behind it, then that should raise some interest in the feasibility in which to bring this concept to life. We need it in our stereo systems, most people just don't realize that yet, or even why.  

There are several longtime Decware forum members here who have past experience with the Carver C9 Sonic Hologram Generator. I think that they can back me up on this assertion.  Hey, as an example, I just proved this to JB, and now he has ordered a used unit, soon to have it in his system. This would have never happened had he not experienced mine, and found out for himself how critical this circuit is with the important role it plays in two channel audio. Please take the time to talk with him, and give him a chance to explain how he feels about this. Since he ordered a unit, the answer must be positive.

I myself will never listen to audio again without this unit. If I have to build one myself, then that is the way it will have to be.  One way or another, this new design will come into existence. The unit I have is old and subject to having components fail, although no signs of that yet. I would like a newer version of this unit using a much better transformer, audiophile grade components, and a major upgrade using stepped attenuators instead of basic and limited push buttons to control the circuit. This idea has so much potential. I would hate to see it overlooked.

Not that a budget friendly base model wouldn't do the job effectively and very well with the five op-amps, but we all know how a PROPERLY implemented tube structure can take things into the next dimension of sound quality. I am sure that a tube based version would double the price, but to many, this would be justified. My take on that, have several versions of upgrades with different levels of cost to allow more people to actually experience the so important function of this device. The goal here above everything else is to perform ONE  function, and perform that function WELL.   If all I could afford was a base model, but knew it was doing the job of removing interaural-crosstalk from the speakers, then of course I would be more than happy to own one. No matter which model chosen, any form of this correction is going to be better than no correction at all.




I would consider buying a Decware version of the C-9. Not sure what the price point would be but if it was a stand-alone unit for my purposes that would be the ideal. As long as it would fit appropriately in my chain somewhere I'd be willing to give it a shot. Using tubes in parts of the circuitry would be the Decware way and probably the option I'd prefer.




My sentiments exactly!  Everything that you stated is critical to the outcome of it's potential success.  I would love to have you experience the Carver C9 for yourself.   Just like with JB, I think it would be a game changer with very serious influence. I know that you value the same things that I do in audio. For that reason, I am sure you yourself would be convinced as well.


In closing, I want to provide an example of what interaural-crosstalk does to your stereo image.

Let's use a visual perspective to make it clear as to what this anomaly actually does to distort the stereo image.

First, cut a monitor image in half, and let that represent what you see coming from the monitor source on the left and right sides having each half represented in proper perspective, representing the actual speakers.  *In other words, the left half of the visual image is displayed only on the left monitor. The right half is only seen on the right monitor.

(**If these were to be joined together, you would have a normal "complete" monitor image )


Now, to represent the extra unwanted signals that define what interaural-crosstalk creates, just imagine the following.

Imagine that there are now FOUR monitors placed directly inline. Two "extra" monitors placed within the center of the two already in place.

However, this time, the second "extra" monitor will display the image seen on the far right which is the right half of the image.

Now reverse that with the third monitor. An image of the first far left monitor will be displayed on that third monitor.

You should be able to visualize the confusing, uncoordinated visual image that would take place here. Could you imagine how difficult it would be for your brain to comprehend what your eyes see? This would be total confusion, and something which would be very unnatural for you to perceive what the actual image really is.


Now remove those two "extra" center monitors, and place the outer two monitors closer together.  Everything starts to make sense now. The total picture comes into play without the confusion. You are now submerged within the "natural" perspective. You only see the left half, and the right half in proper perspective and the total picture is clear.

That "clear" picture is what you unravel once the two extra "masking" signals are terminated.

Within the audio realm, you now have a complete three dimensional canvas with total separation of instruments placed where they should be heard in a real live performance. The left ear receives only what it is supposed to hear. The right doing the same.  This mimics exactly what real time in real space does when you hear natural sounds outdoors. The outdoor experience clarifies this outcome without question. The result is drastic, and immediate, with the majority of music played as long as the speakers and room are set up correctly. Failure to do so will limit the results. A room without acoustic control will also be limited as to the outcome. However, the correction will still be notable and worthwhile. This is critical as to how the speakers are placed as well. The listening apex is absolutely critical and of utmost importance in order for this to be completely effective.


There is no "smoke and mirrors of deception" here.  Finally, you will understand what your stereo speakers have been denying you all along.

This cure doesn't have to remain in the lost abyss any longer. It just takes the right individual to breath new life back into it. Resurrection with a real purpose.


Are we still dreaming?




8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/31/24 at 21:10:30

Oh, BTW:



Hey JB, I almost forgot to congratulate you on taking that step purchasing the Carver C-9. I don't have to reassure you there will be no regret, because you already know that.

Very glad that you have one now.

Happy listening!



[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 10/31/24 at 21:40:11

Now, back to the discussion on speaker cables.

From what Will was saying in the earlier post, he brought up a very good point that got me to thinking.

I am considering that idea of "doubling" the effective surface area for each conductor. What I have in mind is to run two ribbon strips in a twisted formation around a cotton rope core. The leads would be run perhaps in a criss-cross fashion with a controlled degree of space between each turn.

Possibly, it might be a good idea to encapsulate that with wax impregnated cotton material before protecting the cable with a flex shield. Just one of many variables to consider.

This would double the actual gauge factor for which should balance the perspective of the outcome to a more agreeable state of coherence. I would still retain the gain within the top end, but without losing anything in the lower midrange or bass frequencies. This makes enough sense to warrant experimentation. I would love to add a couple of pure silver conductors into the mix, but my budget is going to exclude that idea for now.

I am willing to try something new if it makes enough sense to invest in. The DIY way of course.


Also, nice experiment with the speaker cables. Seems like they may be working out nicely and with some tweaks might give you the frequency range you're looking for. There sure are a lot of variations on a theme when it comes to cables of all kinds. I agree that air is a great insulator. I have some speaker and IC cables that implement to some degree what you're discussing here. The speaker cables use stranded OFC copper to make up each individual conductor and each one is then either coated with silver, tin, or left pure copper to deliver the proper frequencies to the speaker.

Thanks mrchipster.

And more affirmation continues with what is going on within these cables. It seems that many of us are finding out the same degree of difference between these cable geometries. As long as the physics of it make sense, then I feel there is a reason to experiment. Too expensive to experiment with retail models, but in the DIY world, it is easy and forgiving in cost. The materials can also be repurposed into another cable design. Nothing really lost. Eventually, the right combination is found.


This could drive us all crazy!


:D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 11/01/24 at 12:41:31
I am still waiting delivery of the c9. Yours in your space was impressive and leaves a mark that compled me to jump on the old band wagon. Your description prior my session was tantalizing. It seems like it will fill a void in my room that the stereo setup creates. We will see how it plays out!

Here is a link to the c9 Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/954028525368313/?ref=share&mibextid=NSMWBT

I really think that the c9 circuit could be placed on a chip these days. If you found an enterprising chip designer to etch a copy and then get it manufactured, I think there would be a better chance to get Steve on board ;)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 11/15/24 at 16:44:22
Finally got time to reset the Charoit accommodating the Carver C-9. Using Carver and RPS recommendations along with self intuitive workings, the result is a huge step up towards the grail.

The C-9 really needs a well treated dedicated room to shine! In my room the wide setting works best. The room and items within need to be symmetrical. The stage becomes life-size. It expands height wise. Back, front, and side walls do not reveal any limitations with the clues of the recording space. Intelligibility excells to new levels.

There is more to be done in rearranging the room but will have to wait because of priorities. My CD player needs a new laser but first a new electronic work room is nearer completion as the days pass.



[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 11/17/24 at 05:06:12
Finally got time to reset the Charoit accommodating the Carver C-9. Using Carver and RPS recommendations along with self intuitive workings, the result is a huge step up towards the grail.




Hey JB,

It is like looking into the mirror for which I see my own journey expanding with the Carver C9 Sonic Hologram Generator in the loop. Your discovery within your own listening environment very much confirms what I have been saying about this unit all along. As more people seriously evaluate this very critical device within their own systems, the more this unit and it's so important function become the truth which can't be denied. More and more people will begin to take note, and want to discover this "correction" within the music as experience takes hold in a very convincing manner.

I for one will never be satisfied with the regular way of listening to stereo, with its deformed "out of focus" picture which most people have always believed to be the norm. Every since I heard the difference many years ago in my youth, the truth was revealed regarding what I hear without this correction. I have always missed the dramatic change which the correction provides, never really satisfied without it.  Now, you and I both have what it takes to reveal what we all should be hearing with our systems. The musical canvas simply is not what it should be without it, not even close.

People talk about hearing three dimensional imagery within their rooms without ever knowing what actually can be revealed with the proper corrective measures. If they only had the experience which you and I both understand very well using the C9, then, and only then will they discover the natural epiphany within their minds,  the standard of reference for what true imaging really is.

This is not a new concept, as this problem has been known since stereo evolved. Many types of remedies have been considered or tried over the years. Even the master of acoustics himself, Manfred Schroeder, knew of this anomaly, and conceived measures which to correct it. There have been many attempts by different manufacturers throughout the years.  The truly successful device is one that is affordable, simple, and absolutely effective. That of course is the Carver C9. It only has one purpose, that being the elimination of interaural-crosstalk, and it does it very well. And to think, this device has been around since the mid eighties! It has been mostly forgotten and lost in the shadows of the audio world.

It is time that people rediscover what this is all about, and find out what it can do for them.  Many will be very pleased to discover the truth within the music they hear. You have to hear it to understand it, period!

No amplifier or DAC, or any other device will ever come close to what this simple device will do to bring the focus of music inline within a natural perspective as perceived outdoors in real time. With this device, your system will now shine to far greater levels of quality sound imaging and clarity. This truly will be the greatest upgrade you could ever imagine to experience.  This does hinge upon proper speaker type, and arrangement. The result also is dependent upon proper room acoustics to start with.


It is easy to understand what this reveals when we use nature as an example of this audio truth. As you may recall, I painted a very clear picture of what one hears in the middle of nature. That being how easy it is to naturally perceive the exact location and distance of every sound that you hear around you in a full 360 degree setting. Being able to not only decode these coordinates easily, but to pick up on every one of them simultaneously with pinpoint precision, and clarity, in time and space.

You also reinforced the very factor which Bob Carver made clear about the importance of proper speaker arrangement within the room, and how vital acoustic measures are to support this device for the best possible outcome. If not set up properly, the correction factor will be minimized and non-effective.

It is critical for the speakers to be in close proximity, with a very precise apex aligned to your ears. As a minimum, the room MUST have a minimum degree of acoustic treatment along the side walls, and directly behind the speakers to reduce reflections in those critical areas. Absorbers placed just in those areas alone will make a profound difference with this unit activated.

You noted through experience exactly what Carver stated in the manual about setup, and why there are two degrees of injection ratios available(normal & theoretical), as well as two degrees of aperture settings (wide & narrow). You echoed what he said regarding the preferred setting of these choices. He stated that with full room treatment, the normal setting set at the narrow aperture will be ideal. He also stated that with a non-treated room, or a room with minimal treatment, the listener would most likely find the need for the theoretical setting set at wide aperture to be more effective and ideal.

Going back to your listening experience within my room. You stated that the theoretical setting with the wide aperture was "gimmicky" to your ears, finding the normal injection ratio with the narrow aperture as acceptable, and just right in your opinion.  Now remember, my room is completely treated acoustically.

Now, in your environment, we are now considering two completely different listening situations. You have less acoustic treatment, and your room reacts differently than mine acoustically simply from different dimensional aspects. This is why the same piece of audio equipment never sounds the same from one environment to another.

So, what you just disclosed was now a totally different perspective going from my room to yours. Now, everything is reversed within your environment concerning the degree of injection ratio vs aperture setting. Now you don't find the wide setting to be "gimmicky" at all. You simply have found the need for it to be used.

What works for me does not produce the same result in your situation. And this is exactly why there needs to be both settings to balance things out from one type of room to another. Bob knew exactly what he was doing when he designed this unit. It is really too bad the importance of this device never gained the recognition that it deserved.  Just be glad that you were fortunate to have discovered this and make it work for you.

For me, this device was my audio "salvation"!


I am glad to know that I made a difference with at least one other audio enthusiast who truly appreciates what this newfound corrective measure will do to heighten the levels of musical purity and naturalism.

With your affirmation in two different listening sessions using this device, you are now well prepared to understand through experience just exactly what this is all about. This is the very thing that will motivate others to discover what you yourself have recently learned. My assumption is that you will not be the last to place one of these units in the audio system. If what you just clarified through your own experience does not motivate people to investigate this, then I doubt anything ever will. That is a shame. It will be their loss.

I congratulate your efforts to dial in the room setting, and trying ALL settings until the correct balance was found. Many will never do this, and just say that the unit doesn't do much for them, simply because everything is wrong in the setup. As you discovered, everything hinges upon proper set-up.


I don't have to wonder what you are experiencing, nor do I have to wonder if you are satisfied. I already know what the answer is on both counts. But then again, I never expected otherwise.

It is nice to know that I am not alone in this adventure. We can easily relate to the experience we both are achieving within our listening sessions. At least you really do understand without question where I am going with this, and why.


Anyway, I am going to be very busy for some time with the start up of new projects.

I just received delivery of parts from Mouser Electronics. I ordered every part needed to completely build a new hologram generator from scratch. All resistors are Vishay metal film 1% high grade. The electrolytic caps are all Nichicon, and the film caps are Vishay 5% tolerance or tighter. I bought enough gold plated IC sockets to build two units. I bought enough high grade OPAmps to build three units. These are a major upgrade over the original stock chips. I am using the Texas Instruments RC4136N OPAmps for the new build. The switching diodes are being upgraded to high speed versions of higher quality.  The JFETS for positions Q1 and Q2 are also upgrades of higher quality.

I plan to use a toroidal coil transformer for the power supply. A switched IEC will be installed with built in power fuse.  For now, I might simply employ three toggle switches for the controls. I want to upgrade to an advanced use of attenuators versus the two way switches for precise control of the levels. That is going to be a challenge, so not sure how to go about doing that for now.

I am drawing out the schematics now so that I have a clear picture as to how I will solder all of the components point to point. I will not be using a PCB. For the chassis. I am thinking about converting a Tascam cd player chassis for this. I will simply remove the faceplate and custom build a new one from metal for this use.  

I am also looking into a new diy DAC build based upon the Texas Instruments OPA627. That is the chip I am using now (actually two since these are one channel design). I really love the sound quality of this chip and I think it is a wise choice. For some reason, this is by far, one of the most expensive DAC chips available, with the Wolfson chip used in very expensive high end players being close. These chips are outdated, but the opa627 is still available from Texas Instruments. The Wolfson chip is not. I will need two of the opa627's @ around $35.00 each!!! Most DAC chips produced now for this purpose can be purchased for around 2 to 3 dollars. I want the old 627 chips, and will go with that unless something else comes up that I like better.

The plan is to integrate both the DAC board and the hologram board within the same unit. Just have to wait and see where the direction of the DAC build will go for sure.

But I now have everything needed to build a new upgraded version of the C9 except for the transformer and switches for the controls. I have to figure out how these toggle switches will be wired where the old push style buttons were used. Just have to find which pads switch from one section to the other for each switch direction.

I am also underway in the design of my next generation of speakers. These are based upon the original Jensen ULTRAFLEX designs from the 1950's.  In the past, I built a set of the Decware version of these Jensen designs you know as the NFX (ultra-flex). I remember having an intense relationship with the way those speakers sounded to me. They were just about the most natural sounding speakers I ever heard. I found them nearly perfect .  

So thinking back to the experience I had with those, I thought that they would be a wise design to consider again. I am going to duplicate the original 1950's Jensen enclosures instead. I have a good feeling about the outcome with the drivers I intend to use. Ultra high efficiency and superb imaging. The full-range Tang Bands will be perfect for the main enclosures. The bass units will be separate, also built to the design specs of the Jensen ultra-flex 15 inch woofer enclosures. My new Eminence drivers with 99% efficiency @1w will be used in those.  I will not be starting the speaker builds until next year as things are going now. I really want to focus upon building a new C9 clone, and focus upon upgrades to the DAC for optimal performance. That will be long term project as well. You heard how good my current DAC sounds. I am in no rush for upgrades yet. But I do have plans for it in the future.

Again, congrats on that new C9! Thanks for that valuable input which others may find interest in.

Enjoy the music, you have a great deal to discover with this new device.


So if I am absent for a good while, you know that I am up to something. You will hear about it in the future.

And of course, I still have all of the in house remodeling projects that have been put on hold. I have to find time to work on those in between.  I will not be bored this winter.



[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 11/17/24 at 10:46:32

Quote:
You noted through experience exactly what Carver stated in the manual about setup, and why there are two degrees of injection ratios available(normal & theoretical), as well as two degrees of aperture settings (wide & narrow). You echoed what he said regarding the preferred setting of these choices. He stated that with full room treatment, the normal setting set at the narrow aperture will be ideal. He also stated that with a non-treated room, or a room with minimal treatment, the listener would most likely find the need for the theoretical setting set at wide aperture to be more effective and ideal.

Going back to your listening experience within my room. You stated that the theoretical setting with the wide aperture was "gimmicky" to your ears, finding the normal injection ratio with the narrow aperture as acceptable, and just right in your opinion.  Now remember, my room is completely treated acoustically.

Now, in your environment, we are now considering two completely different listening situations. You have less acoustic treatment, and your room reacts differently than mine acoustically simply from different dimensional aspects. This is why the same piece of audio equipment never sounds the same from one environment to another.


A couple of corrections of my experience with the C-9 to date. In your room from recall when the aperture was set to wide a hole developed in the center of the sound stage like the parting of the red sea in biblical times. When theatrical mode was initiated it sounded like echo(gimmicky) was added. I am not sure if both wide and theatrical were initiated at the same time in the latter observation. You was at the controls but I think that it was one at a time from the preferred settings in your room.
In my room to date, I have not tried the theatrical mode yet. I found the sound stage just got larger when switching from narrow to wide without any "hole". Also found that moving items it the room around helps with the stage projection. That is as far as I got so far with the C-9. Looking forward of diving in more for a better understanding of this C-9 gem.

RPS you are about to embark with a daunting task with point to point reincarnation of the C-9! Light speed and keep us posted. Might be best to start a new thread in the DIY section in this forum so not to distract from your already wonderful accomplishments with room treatments ;)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 11/22/24 at 18:51:04
JB,

Thanks for your impressions of your new Carver C-9. Sounds like with some room refinement you really got it to shine. This really validates RPS's assertions of what it can bring to the table. (not that I didn't believe him, I sure did) but nice to know it's repeatable in other folks listening environments. I looked for one when RPS first mentioned it but really couldn't find one, or at least one that looked reasonable to take a chance on. After all, most are older and just not sure how well taken care of they were. Anyway, glad yours was in good shape and is performing well.

RPS,

Good luck with your new audio projects. That's some high-level stuff right there. Pretty amazing you'll be tackling a new hologram generator (from scratch no less) and DAC, possibly integrating them as one seamless unit. That sounds pretty cool. I bet they would sound great on their own (if you create them that way) but combining them would probably bring it to an entirely different level.
Again, good luck with these amazing builds and your new speaker design.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 11/23/24 at 19:29:55

mrchipster,

I just looked on Ebay. This is the only one available at this time. It is from an estate sale and seems to be in very good condition. The price is good at $175.00!!!

There are many looking at this item now. You better jump on it quick if you want one. These go very fast when they show up. The demand is increasing on these units, so the price is going up and will continue to do so because of demand.

This would be an excellant opportunity for you at low cost to try this out.


Here is the image of the unit for sale.  Go to ebay and search for the following info.



Vintage Carver Model C-9 Sonic Hologram Generator VGC !! Rack Mount !!





Hope you decide to get it, as you won't regret the purchase!



:D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 11/23/24 at 21:39:29
Wow RPS, thanks for looking out for me!

Looks like I'm joining the club with you and JB. That unit should arrive in a week or so!

Looking forward to seeing how it fits in my system. I have very little leeway as far as speaker placement is concerned but should be fun to experiment.
I didn't even ask if there was a manual with it, decided to just fly by the seat of my pants. (based on the pictures I doubt there is a manual but for the price I couldn't go wrong)

Thanks again for pointing me to this.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 11/23/24 at 22:01:32
Pretty amazing you'll be tackling a new hologram generator (from scratch no less) and DAC, possibly integrating them as one seamless unit.


Yes, that is the general idea for this project.

I have much of the component values and connections worked out so far from the schematics. There are a few points within the schematic that are questionable concerning resistor values, but I think I can manage to resolve the actual values. It is as if someone didn't proof read the finished schematics and left something out. I Just have two right now that are in question for the output of IC2 (opamp). Makes me wonder if these were an add on later, or perhaps something changed or deleted with design changes??  Not sure, but I will have to come up with a logical solution. Otherwise, the only way I can verify these values is to find the resistors on the actual PCB and test them to find out the real values. That will be a last resort, but just may be necessary to be absolutely clear.

As JB said, this is indeed a daunting task....but soooo very worth it!  I know that it would be so much easier to build this unit using a PCB, but as we all know, the best sound quality comes from point to point wiring in a short configuration.  I plan to do this hard wired point to point, but it may turn out that I decide to just go with a PCB in the end due to complexity. I will decide on that later. One good thing about using a PCB, the space is very tidy and easier to integrate within a project when other boards or components are being placed within the same chassis.

I have to tell you, the stock unit being 38 years old with low grade parts sounds absolutely incredible with what it does. Upgrading to audiophile grade parts with tight tolerances is only going to make things better. The power supply on this unit could definitely use some upgrades for sure. A toroidal transformer and dedicated switches are an absolute consideration for improvement.  The fact that I am using modern high performance opamps (five of them total) will become a major improvement within itself.  The parts alone for this build without the transformer, switches, @ IEC are already past the $175.00 mark. Of course, these are premium parts.  So if you can get a stock unit for this price or less, you have done well.

So far, there are zero problems with my unit. It works flawlessly and I could not be happier. The best damn bang for the buck I ever made in audio!

Sounds like JB can tell you the same I am sure.


As for integration, I will have a completely new DAC board, power supply, and tube output stage for this complete build. The unit uses twin 6922 tubes for output. The board can be switched for tube output stage or bypassed for direct Opamp stage output for comparison or preference. The DAC chip can be easily swapped for chip rolling if desired. Full upgrades include the use of top quality highly desirable Sanyo OSCON capacitors along with many ELNA caps. I am considering upgrading the tube buffer stage caps with high grade Mundorf Mcap( silver in oil) types as they would make a definite improvement.

Considering that I have a brand new(barely used) Tascam CD-200 player, this has already provided the perfect platform to build from. The plan is to remove the existing DAC board and use only the transport itself with the fiber optic output.  The TEAC transport used in this player is the same unit used in many high end uber expensive CD players costing several thousand dollars. So we are off to a very good start already.There will be plenty of room inside to integrate the new DAC board and power supply, along with my new version of the hologram generator circuit. This would be ideal.

Of course, things are subject to change. But that is the plan for now.


I have to wait until Christmas morning to find these things under the tree...so I shall be patient.  I put the bug in my wife's ear about what I wanted...she has already placed an order for the parts, but I am not supposed to know about it...lol.

As you can see, I am wasting no time getting these projects started in the very near future. I am never bored around here. I always have a backlog of things to do.  

Not that I feel the need for different speakers, but I really want to make use of the expensive full range drivers in my possession now. I love the sound quality that the Jensen ultra flex designs create. Just think, with a speaker system nearing 98dB + sensitivity range, it will hardly take any amplifier power at all to drive these with some very intense dB levels!  I could use a mono-block set of SET mini-watt amps with this system and be totally satisfied.

All of that reserve power in the ToriMK3 will just have to sit idle unless I play something with extreme dynamic range at demanding levels. I only use around one third of this amp's power now, and that is pretty loud and dynamic to say the least. My current speakers are around 93 db efficiency, so it is easy to see why ultra high efficiency is so ideal. I am looking forward to what these 15 inch Eminence drivers rated at 99 dB are going to do in the Jensen ultra flex enclosures.  Get ready for some very serious bass! The impact is going to be completely visceral. The speed of these drivers should be satisfactory to keep up with the mains. I believe this will be a great combination. The Bass drivers are actually more sensitive than the full range drivers!  If these are preferred to my current Qforce models, then those will be transferred downstairs to the fireplace room with my other equipment.

I am in no hurry to start the speaker project any time soon. That will be next year when I get time for it. For now, I am very satisfied with the current models.

Hey, keep watching for entertainment and I just may learn something!


:o



[smiley=tunes57.gif]

1-800-DIY-ACME

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 11/23/24 at 22:26:59

Looks like I'm joining the club with you and JB. That unit should arrive in a week or so!


Congratulations!!!


I am very pleased to hear that you jumped on that unit. I saw another one last week for the same price. It didn't last long either. That unit also came from an estate sale.

I am pleased to have helped you find something special without breaking the bank.  I do hope that you find this unit as satisfactory as what I and JB do in our two different settings.

One thing that you will want to change later is the RCA jacks. They are not the best quality and large RCA plugs do not fit as well as they should like the Nuetrik brand I use. You can order a set of Nuetrik chassis plugs from Parts Express and the gaskets for just a few bucks each.  You simply need to un-solder the connections, lift out the existing RCA jacks and reinstall the new ones. It will be worth it.

You can use it the way it is now, but this is something to upgrade later on. If you have the slim type of RCA plugs, then no problem.

I have found in my room that setting the Hologram injection switch to the NORMAL position, and using the aperture ratio at the WIDE setting works best for me. I now have dialed in my speakers to very close proximity which is ideal for cross-talk elimination to work optimally. I took the speakers out of the bass extension pods and set them directly onto the floor with only about 36 inches between driver centers. The toe in is minimal at only 3/8 of an inch offset at the rear. This has made a tremendous improvement over what I had set up when JB was here. It is too bad I did not have this set up this way before he got here.  That is the whole part of experimentation. You never know what's best until you experiment. With the new speaker cables and this refined setup, I am truly amazed at what I am enjoying now....just makes you sit there with a crazy smile and complete satisfaction knowing that you did it right.

The system is warmed up now in the audio room. It is time for me to go up now and spend the night in audio bliss!

I would advise you to try everything possible with the setup. Try all combinations of the hologram settings. You may find that something different than what I am using works best for you. I would be surprised if you did not get immediate affirmation for what this unit does to your music...that being once you set it up correctly.


As for the manual. If you don't get one, I believe you can download a PDF file of it. The service manual download is also available for free.  If you can't find it, then let me know. I will send you the manual.

Okay, the music is waiting on me...gotta go!


Enjoy that new C9.

[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 11/24/24 at 15:17:06
Congrats on the new acquisition Mrchipster! The C9 is a fun piece for sure and will make you do some positive adjustments to your room. I have not spent much time with it because of other audio projects that are in the works at home. My audio closet is being transformed into an electronic repair/assembly room and the Charoit was a staging area for the project. Heck, my whole home is becoming a project from this undertaking!
I just got some listening time in the last couple of nights. A life size sound stage is the biggest takeaway to date. Lead vocals are presented in a convincing manner as a performer would do in an intimate setting. In the past within my room, a lead singer always seemed on the small side with a slight right skewing. I use to pan it out with the CSP2 but that would create a sort of floating effect with different material. With the C-9, vocals are dead center with the pots at the same click marks. I attribute my low ceiling height created the smallest vocals.
I also found that speaker placement is critical. It should be followed as suggested by Carver in the owners manual for the ultimate experience.
I wonder why the 9 was coined with C for the model number? My over active mind came up with it might have something to do with Christmas lights of the era! C9 was the larger of a C7 light. The globes of the two lights can be a physical recreation of the wide and narrow wave patterns of Carver's hologramic generation. How's that sediment grab ya'all. ;)

Enjoy and keep us in tune of your experience with the C9.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 11/24/24 at 16:21:04


I wonder why the 9 was coined with C for the model number?


I would venture to say within reason that the "C" designation logically represents the Carver name. I am sure that you knew that, just making a joke. But hey, sometimes the obvious isn't so obvious!

;D

So now there are three of us that can understand each other when we talk about the holographic stage created with this unit. At least mrchipster will find out soon enough. I am looking forward to his findings and impressions once he experiences this unit.

Don't know if 4krow is still around on these forums, but he has extensive experience with the C9 unit. I am sure that he could add plenty to what this unit provides. There are others around with past knowledge of this device, they just don't chime in.

Anyway, I hope mrchipster gets a unit as nice as what we received. Being this came from an estate sale, sounds like it took passing on for the original owner to part with it.  We are all getting there soon enough.


BTW:  mrchipster, I cleaned all contacts and thoroughly treated with DEOXIT cleaner, plus the gold treatment when I got my unit. The spades on the power cord were tarnished from age. I cleaned those spades with Emory cloth until shiny again. After all of those years collecting filth, it is important to clean everything thoroughly for proper signal contact. If you don't have DEOXIT, just use some isopropyl alcohol to clean the contacts.

I don't like the way they used those inset RCA jacks.  I plan to upgrade my unit with much better versions that my cables can connect to securely and fully.  The Nuetrik PRO-FI plugs do not fit this unit like they should. The connections still make contact, but not what I find satisfactory for a firm positive connection.   I would say that with age, these RCA terminals most likely have less than ideal surface contact anyway. Surface corrosion does take it's toll. If you are not one to use a soldering gun, then don't worry about upgrading. It will work just fine the way it is. A good cleaning is absolutely mandatory though.

So let us know how this works out for you. I think the results will be interesting.


JB, don't worry about the work that is piling up. You will get there eventually. Just have to make priorities and take things one at a time. You always need to make time for music. That fuels your inspiration and motivation for everything else. Trust me, I am in the same boat as you are. Every day brings progress.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 11/25/24 at 11:48:47
I find that Christmas is endearing to an audiophile. It is a time when crisp music is being played/performed in the air. Also a time of anticipated giving and receiving. I remember receiving a portable reel to reel one Christmas morning and a flip stereo record player on another. Both are cherished memories. I'll bet Carver was not much different than us.

The Chariot being used as a staging area just gave me more incentive to put in 12 hour days to clear the clutter so I could sit down to a couple of listening sessions.

These projects have been on my mind for years! It is more a reorganization of necessary items in my possession. Stepping stones that been laid - now being followed and new ones placed. Got to love-it when a plan falls in place 😌

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 11/25/24 at 18:32:39
Thanks JB and RPS!

I'm looking forward to receiving the unit and playing around. I had seen one at a reduced price of $75 (from 150) a little while ago but the pictures made me pause (looked too beat up for me). I'm glad you saw this one and let me know about it. The pictures and the seller's feedback gave me confidence to buy (as well as coming from an estate sale) so I had no problem paying a higher price to try and ensure a higher quality unit hopefully. These things are older so it will always be some type of risk I think, but worth it.

JB - glad you were able to have some time to sit and listen for a while. It's always good to take a little time to relax between projects. You seem to keep yourself very busy.
I'll be looking forward to that 'life size' soundstage you describe. Right now, I'm getting the best sound I've ever gotten in this room by way of room treatments, tweaking, and lots and lots of time (10 months) finding the right speaker position for my environment. I get a great phantom center channel, and the sound goes wall to wall (left/right) most of the time. Even though sounds come from the left or right area they don't seem to come directly from the speakers. Just a nice separated and distributed soundstage from left to right, making the speakers disappear for the most part. Two things are lacking though. The depth and height of the soundstage. They are not what I'd like them to be and so I'm looking forward to seeing if the Carver can give me more of it.

Because of how I must set up my room, a credenza between the speakers housing my components across the top, and limited ability to push the speakers closer together, I'm not sure I'll be able to get the full effect of the C9 but if it even makes things a little better than they are now I'll be a happy camper.

I've downloaded the C9 user manual and have read through it. I have ideas and things to try once it gets here so it should be a fun journey.  

Also, glad to hear your plan is falling into place and new steppingstones laid to carry you forward. Enjoy the holiday season.

RPS - Thanks for the tips on initial settings for the unit and insights into cleaning and potential RCA upgrades. I will certainly be going through the unit as thoroughly as I can. The RCA upgrades will definitely be on my radar in the future.

I will certainly keep you updated as I take the C9 through its paces in my space. Should be a fun trip!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 11/26/24 at 13:24:32

Quote:
Because of how I must set up my room, a credenza between the speakers housing my components across the top, and limited ability to push the speakers closer together, I'm not sure I'll be able to get the full effect of the C9 but if it even makes things a little better than they are now I'll be a happy camper


I sorta have the same problem with speaker placement. Getting the speakers with the maximum range of placement at 5 feet cone to cone separation, the result blocks my HT main speakers. The sound is notably muffled coming from the HT speakers. I got around this in a bit clumsy way with placing the oversized audio system foundations in a position that enables movement of the speaker cabinets to give clear sight of the HT main speaker drivers. The foundations are a real PITA to move. The HT system is only used occasionally for ball games so not really a big issue.

One other notable thing to mention about my C9 is the noise introduced with it. It is subtle but present. I believe it masks some attributes to the system before insertion. It could be it's age showing up. Maybe RPS noticed it also and the reson for his endeavor! There is a seller on eBay that sells part kits to refresh capacitors, diodes, and transistors on the C9. Might give it a try in my new tec workshop along with a list of others!

You also have an enjoyable holiday.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 11/26/24 at 20:20:36
Jbzen wrote above:

Quote:
Reply 219
The room and items within need to be symmetrical.

Reply 221
Also found that moving items it the room around helps with the stage projection.


I ended up moving the Victrola Credenza and Wicked One from the right and left side walls flanking my chair to a position right behind the listening chair. This created a well balanced sound stage that just transforms the venue to my space. The music now cradles my being...outstanding!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 12/10/24 at 02:25:14
I received the C9 recently. It was packaged well, and the cosmetic appearance was very good.
This unit actually has a fuse holder in the back. Something I haven't seen with other units for sale. I wonder if this is one from the early years of production. The serial number is C9 0606.

I wonder if you guys have the fuse holder or not? The reason I bring this up is that when I unpacked and inspected the unit, I saw that the fuse was missing from the holder. I opened the case to investigate further and found that the internal fuse holder has been completely bypassed. The AC mains had been detached from the holder and wired/soldered directly to the spare receptacle and on to the circuitry directly. I didn't have a great feeling about it initially, especially since the soldering at the receptacle (with the split going to the circuitry) looked a little inferior. It seemed ok but I was a bit surprised. My assumption was that the elimination of the fuse completely was an attempt to make the sound quality better and they may have used a better in-line fuse (but certainly not sure). On the units where there is no visible fuse holder I wonder if there is an internal fuse.

After really inspecting it, I decided to plug it in and saw the front red light come on with no other apparent issues. I left it on for quite a while and it seems perfectly fine in that regard. My question is: what is the risk of running it like this. It looks like it's been run like this for a while and doesn't seem worse for wear as a result. It seems the voltage and current in this unit may be pretty low so I'm not sure it's much of a risk but wanted to get your expert opinions. I actually connected it between an old preamp and amp just to test it and it seemed perfectly fine. Of course, I didn't get to really hear it perform but everything worked, and I could tell the buttons were changing the sound to some extent. It's been in that system for a while with no hiccups at all so that's good news.

I'm hoping to get it connected in my main Decware system soon unless you think it is unwise to do so.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 12/11/24 at 07:27:57
Hi Mrchipster,
Sorry to hear of the hack on your C9. You could always undo the bypassed internal fuse with a bit of soldering and installing a 1/8 amp fuse. I think that the e external fuse holder was used in later models to add protection for the accessory outlet. My C9 does not have an external fuse holder. According to the service manual schematic the accessory outlet just parallels from the mains plug without fuse protection.
Without fuse protection a power surge could fry the C9 step-down transformer as well as some failure with the diodes downstream of the tranny. The odds are slim that will happen but possible without quick action of fuse protection.
HTH

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 12/12/24 at 12:12:10
As a follow up on my previous post of which was stated that I thought the accessory fuse holder was in later C9 models, that opinion has changed after further review. I think you are right Mrchipster in your thought that the accessory fuse holder is in earlier models.
The pic below is a snap shot of the leger in the only circuit drawing that I found downloadable on the internet and may differ from hard copies that may still be had with used C9s.

It is revision F done in 1985. The following year RPS's C9 was made and mine was produced at the end of '85. His serial # is in the 17××× range. Mine is in the 15xxx area. Also in that snap the power plug, accessory outlet, and fuse can be seen in the upper right corner that clearly shows an unprotected outlet.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 12/15/24 at 20:26:44

Just some FYI:






If your model is USA only, then the 1.8k line resistor is not installed. That is for CSA only models.

As you will see in the following images, my C9 built in the second half of 1986 has the fuse built onto the PCB itself internally.

Not sure if this model ever had the fuse factory installed on the outside. This may have been a DIY add-on. ??? Obviously, there were revisions to this model during the production period it was being manufactured.

This unit was not equipped with a power switch. The unit must be plugged into a protective switch outlet for control. I have mine plugged into the surge protector.  

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 12/15/24 at 20:43:35


These images are from the model I own. This model was manufactured in the latter half of 1986.












At the very least, plug your unit into a decent power strip with surge protection and use that to power on your device.


There should be no problem using it like that. Obviously, there should be a fuse installed. I would make sure that the correct fuse is installed.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 12/15/24 at 21:16:49
This image shows the upgrade version that I will be using when I build my new C9 clone. As you see, there is a IEC power switch with a built in external fuse. Makes much more sense to do it this way. I will be upgrading to a much higher quality toroidal transformer as well. The new unit will use better quality diodes and far better caps in the power supply.  All components will be audiophile grade close tolerance parts where necessary.






I highly recommend upgrading your unit with this IEC fused power switch as shown. As discussed previously, the RCA jacks definitely need upgrading to a higher quality version. These are the two areas that I don't like about the factory version. It all comes down to corporate decisions to cut production costs.  Certainly this was a very bad choice, who ever approved that decision.




[smiley=icqlite19.png]



We can do better than this!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 12/16/24 at 03:47:41
Thanks for your input and follow up JB and RPS.

It's clearer now that my unit is from the earlier years (S/N : C9 0606) since all the pictures I've found on-line match what RPS's picture shows and are of models without the external fuse holder. (and their serial numbers are like in the 12K to 17K range ... I assume the s/n's are in numerical order of unit's built over time)
I came across one picture that shows a unit with the external fuse holder, but it didn't show the serial number. I assume mine was the 606 unit built sometime in 1981 or 1982. (just a guess)
My unit has TI opamp chips and the others (newer rev's) I've seen have something else (Xilinx maybe?)

The following pictures show the back of the unit with the fuse holder and the internal area where the holder has been bypassed. You can see where the mains enter the unit and get soldered to the receptacle prongs and on to the internal circuitry. The soldering doesn't look that great and the prongs are somewhat loose as they can be wiggled easily. (maybe they're supposed to, idk)








I was a little disappointed when I saw this, but I also wondered if the yellow caps were original or had been updated at some point as well. The rest of the circuit board looks clean, but the transformer looked a little worn, but it could just be me.

As I mentioned earlier, I've had this unit plugged in and inserted in my spare solid-state chain between the preamp and amp. I haven't had any issues with it at all.  
After quite a few days hooked up like this I decided I really needed to hear it in my main system. That's the only way I could assess it, so into the Decware chain it went. (between the pre and amp)

Here's the interesting part: It sounds amazing! I really didn't know what to expect but I guess I wasn't expecting much because of the perceived issues on the inside and the fact that I hadn't even moved the speakers like the instruction manual says you should. I wanted to hear what it could do as is. I have a significant amount of room treatment, and the first reflection points are well covered. I also added some absorbers behind the speakers as mentioned in the manual. It did take me a while to wrap my head around what I was hearing in my non-optimal setup, but I knew I liked it. My initial reaction was similar to when I inserted the Zrock2 into the system. It brought a fullness to the sound, top to bottom like the Zrock did, and so much more. The sound and instruments had much more depth. Even though I'm not getting a full 3D sound, the instruments each have a sphere of influence that gives them their own 360 degree of radiating sound and fairly precise imaging within the soundstage. The soundstage has a little more depth (front to back) but is has even more lateral side to side presence. I attribute this to the crosstalk elimination that it's doing. It seems now the instruments have their own place in space and can be heard exactly from where they're emanating in the recording. Even though they have their own sphere of influence, even when they overlap, they meld quite nicely into a coherent sound field. The fact that I'm not hearing extraneous signals in the opposite channel (when they shouldn't be) allows each instrument to be rendered with somewhat pinpoint accuracy and thus sound so realistic, unified and smooth. Let's just say I was pleasantly surprised!

I mentioned that the C9 was able to achieve these results with no speaker placement modification. Since I had spent a great deal of time getting to the exact spot where they sounded really, really good, I was hesitant to move them at all and certainly wanted to see what the C9 could do in this arrangement. I was not disappointed. However, after marking exactly where the speakers were, I decided to slowly move them based on the manual recommendations. I spent an entire day moving, listening, moving, listening.....  I even got to the point where I had them about 3.5 to 4 feet apart center to center trying for that holy grail of pure 3D sound. In my room with my configuration (speakers on long wall, credenza between speakers, etc.) I just couldn't get them to sound better than my initial setup. In fact, it just seemed to get worse as I moved them around and I did quite a bit of movement. When I finally put the speakers back where they started and put some music on, the sound locked back into that great sound I experienced at the beginning. I was relieved and blown away at the same time. Definitely worth the time and effort to follow the instructions and see what happens. Maybe in a future setup I can get the speakers close and achieve even better results. Even though I may not be getting true 3D sound where things may be hovering in space or high in the sound field or rotating around my head, I'm getting a really nice presentation of the soundstage which seems natural.

I ended the evening with music from Ramsey Lewis and that solidified my appreciation for what the Carver C9 can do. This particular stream was The Columbia Anthology (1972-1989)
There are some really great tunes in there and also some fun ones which allows the C9 to shine. None of the other music that night gave the same wide soundstage and spacial cues as this. If you're into that kind of music give it a whirl, I'd be interested to see if you experience the same impressive sound field as I seemed to have gotten. Maybe it's my room and setup or maybe it's the recording/mixing/mastering but it really doesn't matter, I just want more of what the C9 can deliver when it's there in the recording.

Sorry for the long post but I just wanted to get these thoughts out of my head before I forget, lol.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 12/16/24 at 11:59:36
Hey Mrchipster!
Good to hear you are enjoying your C-9. It is a special add on. I like your reference of Zrock quality of value in a system 👌.
You must have spent a good bit of time placing your speakers for best sound in your room prior to the C-9. I on the other hand used the C-9 to find the best placement of speakers in my room. I purposely pulled the C-9 out and have listened to find that Steve's gear is leaning more to the forth dimension then ever! The C-9 is well worth the $100 or so investment. It adds so much at a very low cost compared to what is out there.
I think your unit is a CSA model. It has a different tranny and it looks like there is a 2 watt resistor lurking in the back of the transformer partially hidden by it. My PS caps are colored different then yours and RPSs two are blue and two grey. It might have been someone doing an upgrade or needed replacement. I have not lifted the board to find out yet.
Here is a link to the patent for the C-9 issued to Carter.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4218585
It is a hard read...maybe someday I will!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 12/17/24 at 21:46:56
JB, yes, I spent quite a bit of time getting my speakers just right to my ears in my space. Things changed over time as I added more and more treatment, and I tried all kinds of different positions until I settled at the current location and small amount of toe-in. Surprisingly they are about 7.5' apart center to center with toe-in that would cross well behind my head. I'm about 8' from the front of them. It was kind of a PIA since I have carpeting and use carpet spikes. Moving 70lb. speakers with spikes and trying to finesse them small increments took patience. I used a tape measure near the end of the process to get everything symmetrical. Of course, that's when my wife walked by and looked at me like I was crazy. ha. Anyway, I was surprised that the C9 worked as well as it did with this configuration.

You had mentioned you get a little noise from the unit but I'm happy to report that I can't perceive any in my setup. You would think I would have some with the changes that were made. Here's an image showing a little more of the unit to show that resistor you mentioned earlier. I also noticed that the large yellow caps are all 16V versions. The schematic (and even RPS's new diagram) show that 2 of them should be 25V. I'm assuming these have been changed out but not sure of the impact of not being to voltage spec.



RPS, nice depiction of the changes you propose for the new C9. Great work.
I notice that you're considering using the TI OPamps. My unit has TI but all the other pictures of this unit I see have some Xp designated OPamps (not sure what that is). Anyway, if I have the unit 'refreshed' I think they may move to the newer Xp types. I think maybe yours and JB's might have the newer Xp types. Would you recommend staying with the TI (maybe not replacing them at all or replace them back with new TI versions) or allowing the newer OPamp types to be used? If all goes well for a while I may choose to get it refreshed (back into spec) which will also get the fuse re-integrated and would do the RCA jacks update/upgrade as well. I think it would be money well spent, what do you guys think? My only concern would be that it comes back not sounding as good! (not sure that's a valid concern though). But maybe the hack done to the unit made it sound as good as it does by accident. lol. Personally, I would think a refresh would be good and outlive me with no concern of future degradation. Certainly, appreciate your opinions.

Once I engage the unit, I find that pushing in the middle button gives me the best sound. I assume that means 'WIDE aperture'. However, reading the user guide it says that 'narrow' is when the button is 'IN'.   i.e.  2. LISTENING APERATURE: The NARROW mode (switch IN) provides very precise matching of .......      But when I read the service manual and it is describing a service procedure, it mentions the button OUT as NARROW.
It makes sense that the button in is 'wide' and the user guide is out of sorts. It really doesn't matter since I like what I like but just wondering if you guys feel the same way.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 12/18/24 at 16:18:47
Yea! Moving heavy spiked awkward speakers a bit here and there is a real pain in the ass! I gave up years ago until the C-9 and RPS came along. The card that tumbled my efforts was when I painstaking set the foundations with spikes and speakers in position using a laser and level only to find that one speaker ended up higher then the other. I had to start over to get both the same height. My floor is concrete. The house was built by a Westinghouse manager that used a lot of Westinghouse building maintenance materials and he must have got some of his subordinates to do some freelancing on his build. The concrete has a 3/4" difference in height where my speakers sat. I've learned and made sure the foundations were on the same plane before the new setting.

I may have time today to take some pictures of my C9 internals. It looks a lot like RPSs except for the 2 blue caps. I shied away from those external fuse offerings when searching on ebay. RPS's back story on Carter gave me pause to find one similar to his. Turns out that those units with the fuse are more or less adhering to Canadian electrical code and being yours is an early version my worries about those were unwarranted.

The noise that I was hearing on mine could have been the interconnects. I was using my unshielded silver reel to reel interconnects that was handy. Those reached but ran parallel to some power and the C9 was setting(still is but not in the loop now) on top of the CSP2 and ZP3 power trannies. Not an ideal location! I need to make more of Decware interccont clones as soon as time permits.

Speaking of time...I'm running behind a bit. I've got a lot done but the Chariot is not where it should be. Room treatment is down for needed adjustments. It all needs to be back in place before the 29th when our family celebrates Christmas this year. That is where my oldest and husband sleep!

I learned a long time ago that if it ain't broke leave it be. Seems you are totally enjoying the C9. I would keep doing that for now. Let us see what RPS comes up with. It would not be hard using that external fuse holder to add protection in your C9. Some solder and a 1/8 amp fuse would do it.

RPS have you managed to do the point to point of the C-9? For some reason my vision comes up with an uncovered golf ball ;)

Best to both of you guys.
 

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 12/20/24 at 05:16:18

Been busy lately trying out some new interconnects at the audio dealer. These seem to work very well. I do find them to be a bit SHOCKING!





:o


Hey, I'm going all in with this future upgrade. I just may be ready for the electric chair by the time I get all of this done. Hopefully I will actually have an electrifying experience without getting shocked!


Well mrchipster, I am relieved that you got your unit and you are happy with it. I feel a bit of disappointment for your purchase of a unit which was questionable. That is the risky part of buying these aging components. If we look at the positive side of this, we are 3 for 3 on being successful with these units still working after all these years, and still working well. I would have felt responsible if you had received a bad unit, or didn't like it. I would have just offered to buy it from you if that were the case. At the very least, I would have rebuilt the one you have and sent it back to you.

It stands to reason that these units are going to have many components that are out of spec from age. All I can say is this, if my unit is out of spec and not working to maximum potential, then I would really love to hear what this thing can do once it is completely rebuilt with higher grade components.

As for noise issues, I detect absolutely zero noise coming from this unit. I can turn the volume control to the max setting and hear nothing but dead silence. The only thing I can hear in this room (my room is dead quiet, so quiet you probably could hear a pin drop on the hard floor) is the subtle electrical static coming from the tubes themselves. Very minor and only at idle. I doubt one would hear that in an ordinary room with the typical level of background noise.

When I received my unit, I sprayed DEOXIT cleaner into the switch pots, and thoroughly cleaned the RCA terminals, as well as the cable ends. I also cleaned the tarnish from the electrical cord spades.

I remember when I first plugged this unit in, I could faintly hear the transformer hum at idle. After warming up, it wasn't noticeable. I have to really listen hard now to hear it with a quiet room. So I can safely say that noise is not an issue with my system.

One note about that. Before JB came to hear my system, I had quickly and crudely revamped my system setup before he got here. I wished I had more time to get the setup right before that listening session. I have found many areas that were not set up be to optimal. One thing that was a problem was the interconnects which ran the signals out from the C9 to the amplifier.

I was short a set of cables and had to quickly build a set before his visit. I could not find my spare high quality Nuetrik PRO-FI RCA plugs that I normally use with my custom cables. I had used a cheap set of basic plugs that I had on hand. VERY BIG MISTAKE!!  It would seem that if any noise was being transferred from that output, it was from those inferior plugs more than anything. I also noted that the soldered connections were not as good as they should have been. I am sure this set of cables were degrading the overall sound of the system. Between that and the new speaker cables, the sound quality has increased tremendously in several aspects that are easy to hear compared to before. It is funny how something can seem so good until a change takes place to prove otherwise.

For years, I have noted that many audiophiles who DIY their own custom interconnects have praised the use of Japanese Mogami microphone cable with soft annealed stranded copper leads and a copper wire mesh external shield. I had 12 feet of this cable sitting in my stash for the last ten years. I had intended to make a set with this cable using the Nuetrik PRO-FI plugs, but never got around to it since I didn't have a use for them at the time.

I built all of my interconnects using the Dayton PRO shielded microphone cable which is no longer available today. I feel the build quality is very similar to the Mogami cable and certainly is of the highest grade. I just did not expect the possibility of much, if any notable difference between these two cable offerings. The only real difference within my reasoning which would make an audible change (especially with long runs) is that of cable capacitance, and the ability to reject electromagnetic interference. The Mogami cables have extremely low capacitance for long runs of cable. This makes a difference in high frequency preservation. These are the same cables used professionally in many reputable recording studios.


"W2549 Neglex microphone cable by Mogami is designed to preserve your signal while rejecting noise. 2549 is indicated where extended high frequencies are required, and for long cable runs. Two 22 AWG conductors plus a served (spiral) copper shield are covered by a 0.236" PVC jacket."


I knew that I had a bunch of surplus Nuetrik PRO-FI connectors somewhere in the house. I had purchased a bulk supply from Parts Express during the annual tent sale for half price a few years ago.  So after searching through boxes in the garage, I found the new connectors that I needed. I decided now is the time to try out this Mogami cable and see if there was a difference.  The proper way to construct these cables is to twist the ground shield mesh on one end only, and solder it along with the negative(ground) lead to the RCA plug. The other end simply floats and is NOT terminated with the negative wire on the other end. Then simply solder the positive lead to the center pin on the RCA connector at both ends.

The design of the Nuetrik PRO-FI RCA plugs are created to make ground before signal contact, and break the signal before ground. You would be hard pressed to find a better RCA plug than this design. Noise transference is virtually impossible with these plugs.

Now mind you, since I have the old cables using the Dayton PRO cable throughout the remainder of the system, I hardly expected to hear any difference at all simply by just replacing one set of cables in the circuit path. These are critical being that they are the final set going into the amplifier. Now from my perspective, I would have to conclude that any real improvement would simply be due to the replacement of the inferior RCA plugs that went into the C9 output jacks. That I have no problem understanding the reason why. So whether the improvement was simply a result of replacing the plugs with much higher quality plugs, or actually a combination of this, and the use of Mogami cable, I am not sure. What I am sure of is that there was an immediate improvement within the cable signature. Instantly, the music took on a much smoother presentation with a refined resolution that was absolutely unmistakable. This indeed made a worthwhile improvement, one that would not have been realized had I not replaced this set of interconnects.

With my well balanced acoustic environment, and the quality of the ToriMK3 amp, it is very easy and clear to hear any and all changes introduced with  cable or equipment swaps. The difference in audio cables and vacuum tubes is an easy thing to distinguish with my system.

Audio cables should be nuetral, with absolutely zero coloration added to the system. The purpose of a cable is simple, relay the signal without altering the properties of the audio signal as it passes through. The cable should be absolutely transparent in its designed purpose. The perfect cable is the one that you don't hear.

Think of the audio components being one giant circuit without any use of cables to transfer the signal from one component to another. In other words, the total elimination of cables entirely. If the cables do not change anything audibly as compared to not using cables, then they are the best they can be. The cable is not supposed to sound like anything. If they impart an overriding sound signature over that of the original signal, then you are no longer hearing the true sound of the components that are connected by these cables. That is simple common logic.  So ultimately, if we do hear a change, we only hope that change is a result of the intended sound signature becoming truer to form as a result of better cables. Closer to the truth, that being absolute transparency if that is possible with even the finest cables.

We know that many factors govern the outcome with any set of cables. Correcting these factors is what really makes the difference in cable quality.

Cable geometry is not rocket science. Metalurgy, grounding, shielding, material quality, and math. Beyond those factors, the impact of diminishing returns quickly comes into play. You do NOT have to spend ridiculous amounts of cash to achieve this level of quality.

And of course, the thing buzzing through my mind is that "what if?" factor once again. Now I am curious as to what will happen if I replace all of my interconnects with Mogami cable, and the Nuetrik connectors. If there is a gained improvement, then the answer is clear. This Mogami cable would prove to be superior, and definitely an improvement. I will reserve my thought on that one until testing proves conclusive.

Well guys, it is getting late and I will just continue this tomorrow sometime. I have a bit more to say about all of this and will discuss further as I get the time.  JB, I will answer you then.

Back soon.


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 12/21/24 at 06:27:57
I came across one picture that shows a unit with the external fuse holder, but it didn't show the serial number. I assume mine was the 606 unit built sometime in 1981 or 1982. (just a guess)
My unit has TI opamp chips and the others (newer rev's) I've seen have something else (Xilinx maybe?)


Yes, the unit that you purchased is indeed a very early production model. The first units had the mount rack notches. The later models did not. I will post a video pic of Bob Carver doing a product presentation which includes the new C9 unit in 1982. He is holding that new unit which looks exactly like the one you have. Bob has stated in recent years that the C9 sonic holograph generator was the best selling device that he ever produced. That equates to a huge amount of sales.

As for the opamps in the early unit. I see that the first production units used Texas Instrument chips that were manufactured in Malaysia. That surprises me that we were already having these devices produced overseas during that period. When you examine the chips used in latter years such as mine, the chips are EXAR Corporation XR4136CP quad opamps.

The new Texas Instrument opamps that I just purchased from Mouser Electronics are current production RC4136N quad opamps.

As for the inferior soldering job inside of your unit, I really doubt that Bob would have allowed such shoddy work in production models. I am sure that your unit has been hacked and who ever did that work was lousy at soldering. I am thinking that some mods were done and perhaps a few caps replaced. I have owned many amplifiers and other gear from Carver during the late eighties, and I never witnessed anything that shoddy inside of those components. Back in 1986-87, I purchased the Carver C4000t pre-amplifier with the sonic holograph generator integrated within. I also had a pair of Carver M1.0t amps bridged as mono blocks, and a single M1.5t amp as an extra. I had the Carver CD player with the time lens. I had the new Carver Amazing loudspeakers to complete the system. So I had many years of extensive experience using these components. Not once did I ever incur a problem with this system. This was the best bang for the buck that one could buy during those years. For the price, nothing could even come close to matching the performance of Carver products.

These amp designs were upgrades as a result of the great Bob Carver NULL challenge in a blind test to match any amp competitor at the time to be indistinguishable from Bob's modified design in a listening evaluation by the experts. We are talking about top of the line ultra expensive esoteric amps of the day such as McIntosh, Krell, Mark Levinson, etc. I don't recall the exact model that went head to head during this test, but it was one of the most prestigious tube amps of the day, one that was way out of reach for the average person to own.

Bob was given 24 hours to accomplish this task. He was given the competitor amp to use in the lab for the null test. He did accomplish the challenge and actually won the bet. (the challenge was to match perfectly the transfer function of the competitor)

Of course, the expensive tube amp indeed was better built, and actually had superior sound qualities. The bet was that he could not match the amps from a technical perspective (particularly the transfer function), one that the testers could not tell the difference. I doubt that the Carver amp mod made during that challenge was anywhere near the actual quality of that amplifier it competed against, but that challenge is history as he indeed DID match the transfer function of the ultra expensive tube amp, and Bob made a fortune as a result of it.

I ran those high powered M1.0t amps (M stands for magnetic field/ t stands for transfer function) driving the massive Amazing loudspeakers which were massive panel speakers using full length ribbon arrays and four aluminum subwoofers per speaker. I will tell you this, those speakers had extremely immersive imaging with a huge sound-stage. They were power hungry and required a great deal of dynamic headroom to prevent overloading. But with the revised M1.0t mono blocks driving them, they were simply incredible to say the least. No wimpy amps could even begin to drive these massive panel speakers. The mono blocks drove them effortlessly all day long producing some very dynamic levels of music. The only time that I ever clipped these amps short term was during the cannon fire from 1812 overture recorded on the TELARC audiophile label. This CD came with a warning to keep the amp volume control at SAFE levels, as the dynamic range can easily unseat speaker cones from over driving.

Of course, I had to push it and find out just how much volume I could get away with before clipping. When I did hit that level, the clipping was soft and very momentary. I then reduced the level to just below that clipping point. When that cannon fire went off again, this time it sounded real and the dynamics were intense. The cloth covers actually blew forward under intense pressure from the subwoofers. The covers rippled with strong force as I felt the wave of air pressure rush across the room and hit me in the chest. Any items sitting on the shelves were at risk of falling off. The walls would shake violently at that point. So it was obvious as to how much force these speakers were putting out when pushed hard.

I love the interaction of music when a system can actually do that and not sound like crap. Crystal clear, highly defined, and with great authority.  As a result of magnetic field coil transformer technology, these amps always remained cool to the touch. They were very efficient and produced huge levels of power. You will have to hear Bob's explanation of how that technology works, and why he decided to use it for his amps. The results are obvious as to why this proved successful for him. Where else were you going to get amps of this caliber at a ridiculous price that was easily affordable, but way ahead of anything else at three times that price. That became possible due to the reduced cost to manufacture amps using his patented Magnetic Field Coil Technology, compared to how more expensive amplifiers were built. They were an extraordinary concept at the time and proved to be very successful and in demand for the average consumer.

In a nutshell, the basis of the output transformer developed for the magnetic field coil technology worked by designating one half of the sine wave to be driven by an isolated power source in A/B topology, while the other half was driven separately by another power source in similar manner. The efficiency of these transformers came about by special windings that allowed for this type of operation, yet able to run as if the amp was a Class A amp, and do so WITHOUT NOTCH DISTORTION!

The resulting output power acts as if it were pure class A power, as standard class A amplifiers operate. The two separate power sources driving this A/B topology actually drives the separate positive and negative sine waves in class A operation independently, but with the efficiency of class A/B, and do so without notch distortion. This is the basis of the tracking down converter, along with special windings in the output transformer which makes this concept possible. A switching scheme using a TRIAC is used to control this topology.


The magnetic field coil design only utilizes the power supply on a "as needed basis" rather than running full spec all of the time. Excess energy is stored within the special transformer windings (the magnetic field coil) and available for demand when the amp requires it. This eliminates the need for massive capacitors to store the energy needed to drive the amp at demanding loads such is the norm with most large bulky amplifiers which operate so hot that you can burn yourself.


I would not compare the musical attributes of these magnetic field coil amps to something such as the Tori zen amplifier designs of today, but back in the eighties, these amps were very special and a pleasure to own. After all, for the price difference, one cannot afford to make that comparison in a reasonable manner which would be justified with something that cost ten times more.

Just like you can't compare muscle cars from that era to what we have today. The difference in technology is so extreme, that any idea of a challenge would be pointless, and quite laughable to say the least. A dodge charger R/T equipped with a 426 Hemi was king of the day back in the 70's. Today, a supercharged hemi dodge challenger would leave it in the dust before it even got off the line. Sort of like comparing a world war II Mustang with a F22 Raptor today.


Anyway, I got off track there and wrote a short story. I just wanted to note that quality control standards in production would have never allowed something of subpar quality to leave the factory like that. The product wouldn't last long if it did. I am glad that my unit was stock, and untouched after all these years. I am sure it is due for a cap change, and perhaps an opamp change, but so far, the sound quality does not suggest that, so for now, it is fine.


Oh, BTW: Bob stated in an interview that the original cost of the C9 was only $275.00 back in 1982! Even back then, this device was a steal for the price. I have yet to see any competitor produce a device that can do precisely what this unit does, so that makes it far more valuable than mere cost would suggest. My system would not be complete without it.


So once again, I left my time short with what I really wanted to say tonight, but I will be back to continue this soon.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 12/21/24 at 18:59:59
JB, funny analogy about the C9 point to point wiring with the 'uncovered golf ball'. There certainly are quite a few components to connect but if anyone can bring a method to the madness, RPS certainly can.

It would be cool to see pictures of the internals of your unit but don't go out of your way, I know you have lots of other priorities.

Also, thanks for providing the link to the C9 patent. I'll check it out at some point just to try and understand some of the concepts. Glad you also found the source of the potential noise with the C9.

RPS, that's a crazy picture! I didn't realize that new interconnects use your body as the 'ground'. Anyway, here's hoping your future upgrade goes really well without any shocking results.

Let me just say that I appreciate your concern about the C9 I received. I definitely would not have held you liable for any disappointing results in the least, either physically or audibly. I knew what I was getting into and for the modest amount of cash I felt it was well worth the risk. As it is, the risk paid off. For the most part I just want to say Thank You for recommending the C9. It works well, and if I have it refreshed (and RCA's upgraded) it will only be better. The concept of eliminating inter-aural crosstalk makes a lot of sense and the C9 does a great job at an affordable price point. The other solution that comes to mind is BACCH, but I don't know a lot about it and it's at a much higher price point and is software based from what I gather.

I wasn't sure how the C9 would fit with my entire Decware, tube-based audio system. I mean, would this solid state piece of gear inserted between the pre and amp take something away from the pure and great tube sound I was getting? Sure, I'm using the Decware chain with a streamer/DAC but the modification to the streamer brought it to a much higher level by separating the streamer/computer sections from all the audio sections. The SMPS was left to power the streamer functions but separate low and high power supplies were used to isolate the audio components (Lundahl transformers, etc) and the SS output stage was replaced with a tube-based solution, amongst other things. I felt the output signal at that point was as good as this streamer could get and this great signal was then passed on to the ZBIT, then to the Zrock2 and on to the CSP3 (A-mods) before being amplified by the UFO25.  Would inserting the C9 between the pre and amp cause any noise, degradation, poor SQ, lack of synergy, etc....?  The answer is a definite NO. I wouldn't call myself a purist, but I always thought, the less in the signal chain the better. However, when I came across Decware quite a while ago, my mentality changed a little. My system is living proof that if adding components in a thoughtful way with a particular purpose, those components will add a great deal to the system. Much more than just the sum of its parts. (the additional interconnects need to be just as thoughtful). The addition of the C9 was no different. The concern vanished pretty quickly. Even though it is solid state, it fits in really well with the system as a whole. Granted, not every recording benefits from the C9 but I'm finding I'm not disengaging it at all.

Thanks for your thoughts and information about Bob Carver and the C9. He was definitely a pioneer and innovator. I find this type of stuff very interesting. I'll watch the video once you have time to post it.

Nice work with your DIY cable solution and experiments. Seems like you're very happy with the Mogami brand. Good luck with all of it.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 12/21/24 at 20:28:01
mrchipster, in reply:


I notice that you're considering using the TI OPamps. My unit has TI but all the other pictures of this unit I see have some Xp designated OPamps (not sure what that is). Anyway, if I have the unit 'refreshed' I think they may move to the newer Xp types. I think maybe yours and JB's might have the newer Xp types. Would you recommend staying with the TI (maybe not replacing them at all or replace them back with new TI versions) or allowing the newer OPamp types to be used? If all goes well for a while I may choose to get it refreshed (back into spec) which will also get the fuse re-integrated and would do the RCA jacks update/upgrade as well. I think it would be money well spent, what do you guys think?


This is certainly a warranted effort which really should be done with a unit made back in 1982. I am sure that someone already played around inside of that unit from the looks of it. Since you find the sound acceptable, then perhaps that owner did it right without changing anything in a negative manner.

Personally (this is exactly why I am building a new unit from scratch using tighter tolerances and higher grade components), as a minimum, I would upgrade the power supply caps, diodes, and especially, that transformer. While you are at it, install a fused power switch with an IEC power cord, and upgrade those RCA jacks. As cheap as the opamps are, and being readily available online, it would be foolish not to upgrade the five opamps with newer versions, as they do tend to drift out of spec over time.  I have to think that the newer versions are better quality than those offered back in 1982.

Here are the part numbers and cost for the parts I recommend changing:

From Mouser Electronics online,

# 595-RC4136N........MFR# RC4136N...Texas Instruments Quad opamps.  *(need 5 total) @ 0.96 cents each!

#575-113314......MFR# 110-13-314-41-001000....IC component sockets, 14P GOLD PIN *(need 5 total) @ $2.25 each.

NOTE: the following capacitors are good quality and a perfect replacement for this circuit. HOWEVER, since your caps seem to have differant values than mine, perhaps you need to stick with the values you have in your unit. There most likely was a circuit revision over the years from 1982 to 1986 when mine was manufactured. Just make sure that you order the correct values.

In MY unit, the values would be:

#647-UEP1C220MDD......MFR#UEP1C220MDD..aluminum electrolytic capacitor, radial leaded, 16 v 22uf 20%..*(need 2 total) @ 0.30 cents each.

#647-UKT1E102MPD...MFR#UKT1E102MPD...aluminum electrolytic capacitor, radial leaded, 25v 1000uf AEC-Q200..*(need 2 total) @ $1.05 each.

#647-UKW1H2R2MDD...MFR#UKW1H2R2MDD..aluminum electrolytic capacitor, radial leaded, 50v 2.2uf  20%..*(need 1 total) @ 0.15 cents each.

If you want to change the JFET's, (optional): #810-2N5458...MFR#2N5458 PBFREE....JFET N-ChJFET...25Vds 25Vdg 25Vgs
          ..............................................................................................................10mA 310mW.............*(need 2 each total) @ $1.22 each.


I recommend at the very least changing out those caps as a minimum. You will have to research the actual values needed for your model. You know what substitutes are allowable. The caps shown above are NICHICON. Hard to beat that quality.

I will be using all Vishay 1% and 2% tolerance metal film resistors in my build. I am considering stepping up to tighter tolerances on my capacitors over the stock values. They will cost more, but very worth it. I have heard that the Sanyo OS-CON caps have the most desirable sound signatures over other electrolytic types. They are great for bypassing and have proven highly desirable in DAC circuits. So that is something to consider.

I already have the NICHICON capacitors that I ordered. So this upgrade is optional with the OS-CON's.

I am upgrading all other caps to VISHAY 5% or less film types, with the exception of some ceramic disc caps, also VISHAY. I think there were a few WIMA types also.

As for the signal switching diodes, there are two types needed.

#494-1N4148-1....MFR#1N4148-1..........small signal switching diodes 75v.....*(need 2 each) @ 0.74 cents each.

The other diodes can be found on E-BAY. I did not find them on Mouser.

**DIODE IN4004....400V.......*(need 5 total)....around $5.00/ free shipping.

If you decide to populate the entire board with fresh components, then I can provide you with the complete list of parts and part numbers from Mouser. The only thing needed outside of those parts are the transformer, IEC power switch, IEC power cord, and RCA plugs which you can find online. The overall cost is very affordable and will be worth it.


Not sure about how you feel concerning DIY and your ability to solder, but if you can do this, then upgrade this unit yourself. If you are not comfortable doing this, then find someone that you can trust to do quality work and NOT overcharge you. Perhaps JB would offer to upgrade yours when he does his own unit. I know he will do a good job, and he will be fair about it. I think you can do it. Just practice your soldering skills on something else until you feel confident to work on the C9. I have a feeling that soldering is already one of your acquired skills from past employment. I could be wrong, but you did work in that environment as a chip designer, am I right?


As for your suggested music selection to try out, I will try to find it online and give it a try when I get time. I am not familiar with that artist but surely will give it a whirl and let you know what I think.

mrchipster, if you care to send me a PM with your shipping address, I will put together a very nice music sampler made from very rare audiophile recordings such as my new LPCD tiles (including Dire Straits, Brother's In Arms, and Pink Floyd, The Wall) which I will transfer onto lossless FLAC discs. This is a gift to you for evaluation purposes, and I will cover mailing cost.

I will select various titles that I know shine with the C9 unit. These titles have an abundance of spatial content that are perfect for evaluating the C9 holography difference.  You will certainly be amazed at what you discover. I have several direct to disc from the master tapes LPCD classical recordings that will absolutely prove just how good your audio system really is. It simply does not get better than this unless you are listening to the actual studio master tape...and not by much!  I would like for you to evaluate these so that you know just how good that C9 really performs.  One thing to note: Classical music usually does not offer much in way of holographic imaging. The C9 only places instruments in proper perspective as engineered by the studio on the original tracks. If a wide spacial aspect was not intended or produced that way, the C9 is not going to change that. For classic rock, and especially atmospheric music such as "new age" (Vangelis, Tangerine Dream, etc.) will definitely be among those that are meant to have wide panning and special effects within the original studio master. What you experience using the Carver C9 holographic generator completely depends on what was actually recorded in the music. It can't produce what is not there. It only "corrects" what IS there.

So if you would like this care package, then let me know. I will be happy to send these to you....FREE! I promise you that it won't disappoint.

I just ask that you post reviews here concerning what you experience. And don't worry about the length of your posts or future reviews, I welcome you to do so. In fact, I encourage it.  This is all part of exposing the need for the C9 in the music world. As more and more people are convinced, the likelihood of resurrection for the C9 becomes closer to reality.

I found your room arrangement process interesting. I am glad that you are doing it right. The results are in your favor.


Oh, and yes, I found that shocking experience with the interconnects rather refreshing. I feel so much better now...and WOW, my hearing actually improved!  As for the madness, there is no cure for that.

;D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 12/21/24 at 20:56:56


RPS have you managed to do the point to point of the C-9? For some reason my vision comes up with an uncovered golf ball

Hey JB,

Been very busy since I started this project. I have not had time to finish the layout yet. I do have a few bugs to work out since a couple of things are not clear in the schematic.  I am confident that I will resolve this mystery, at least I hope.

This is not a simple undertaking, so obviously, it will take time to accomplish.

It would be much easier to just have a new PCB produced for this project. If I were to sell these reproductions, then that would be the way to go.

I am thinking that for at least a personal test model, it could just be done point to point. I would change the layout on the board anyway to suit my needs.

I surely hope that I don't get caught up into a giant "golf ball". That would be crazier than Caddy Shack and Rodney Dangerfield's eyes!

So, after the holidays, I intend to get back to this.

The only major part that I do not have for this build is the transformer. I will most likely have one custom wound for this project unless I can find one online of good quality and to spec. My version is a 115 24v model which is the factory stock unit. I think that an upgrade to a P coil or a toroidal type would be beneficial, so that is what I want to use.

If you know of a transformer available which would be a compatible replacement, then please let me know. This would save me some time. I do not need anything but USA voltage.

I really don't like the factory push button switches. They will work, but I can see a future upgrade there.

Happy holidays to your family and may you have a great Christmas. This year is going to be great!


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 12/22/24 at 01:57:14
Okay, here is the link to that 1982 Carver presentation that goes in depth about his products and the C9 sonic holographic generator. If you look closely, you can see that the unit he is holding is exactly like yours.

Bob shows his goofy sense of humor in this cheesy presentation where his assistant is Miss Hologram.  Looking at these audio geeks reminded me of those years when I was one of them...lol    That was certainly a different era.

The big preamp is the C-4000. The one that came about around 1986 was the C-4000t with the upgrades. That is the model I owned. The very first amp by Bob, the "Carver Cube" was when I became aware of his products when I listened to one with a Nakamichi Dragon and Acoustic Research speakers back in 1985. I could not believe what was coming out of that little cube. It got my attention.

Carver Corporation was not his first gig. He had success with Phase Linear before he created this company. He finally evolved into what he always wanted to build from the start, vacuum tube amplifiers. Up until he retired (he is in his 80's now and still sharp as a whip) his entire focus was on tube amps. Ironically, his last company before shutting it's doors due to the Corona virus impact was called Bob Carver Corporation. This was his final gig after selling Sunfire Corporation.  He certainly cashed in on major profit from that transaction.

So watch this bit of history if you like. I think you might get a kick out his presentation. Gotta love those 70's outfits!

;D








There are a bunch of videos with Bob being interviewed in his latter years, right up to his last show earlier this year. Just search for his name and many come up on YouTube.  I particularly like the one with his presentation of the ALS line array speakers which are built to produce a similar effect as the C9, but with acoustic technology built into the speaker designs themselves.

He told the story about the ribbon elements that he designed for these speakers. He went to HiVi in China to have them built. They wanted $100,000 just to gear up for production. He offered to give them exclusive rights to own and sell these drivers after Bob had exclusive rights for the first three years. After that, They could sell them to anyone they wish. These ended up being a major seller at Parts Express. Yes, Bob designed those planar drivers. They are the very same ones in the ALS line arrays.

I just happen to have a box full of these drivers brand new. Really has me thinking about the possibilities for using them in a design like this.


[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 12/22/24 at 04:31:57

It would be cool to see pictures of the internals of your unit but don't go out of your way, I know you have lots of other priorities.


Absolutely. I will be certain to show every detail and be clear about the process. It is never out of my way when it is important to provide a visual perspective.


For the most part I just want to say Thank You for recommending the C9. It works well, and if I have it refreshed (and RCA's upgraded) it will only be better. The concept of eliminating inter-aural crosstalk makes a lot of sense and the C9 does a great job at an affordable price point.


Yes, I am certainly glad that you are now introduced to it's capabilities, even though you still have to work out the positioning a bit for maximum benefit.

You could not have stated that description of the C9 better. It indeed does exactly what it is designed to do, and do it very well. As I said, this unit was his most famous product. This unit had higher sales than any other device he invented. Once you plug one of these devices into your system, it is easy to understand why.


would this solid state piece of gear inserted between the pre and amp take something away from the pure and great tube sound I was getting?

That went along with my reasoning as well before I bought this unit. But I had to find out, and to my relief, the answer is NO....absolutely NOT! It does not color the sound. It does not introduce audible noise. It does not take anything away from the system what-so-ever. To the contrary, the C9 only corrects what is wrong with the two channel system, nothing more, nothing less. I would say that it creates no more harm than the introduction of interconnects within the signal path.

The benefits greatly outweigh any negative departure one could think of. Once you take this unit out of the loop, you find out with bitter disappointment what you have been missing in your music all along.  Trying to listen to two channel stereo will never be the same without it. This thing makes a dramatic difference, exactly where that difference is required.  If anything, the C9 enhances the final signature of the amplifier as the icing on the cake.  I certainly believe that a high quality amplifier such as the ToriMk3 is what it takes in order for the C9 to reveal it's true capabilities.

The manual for the C9 states that one needs to train his ears to pick up on the effect of sonic holography. They stated that it could take many hours or days to begin understanding what it is doing in the system.  You have to consider the grade quality of the equipment back then, and also the fact that most rooms were not going to have acoustic treatment.  That alone presents a problem which will greatly hamper the presentation of the C9.

My take on that statement is this, that was certainly NOT the case with my system in this acoustically corrected setting of mine. The transition was immediate, and with great embodiment. I did not have to train my ears to hear this. The outcome is immediately apparent and very effective within a proper setup.

This is exactly why experimentation is necessary to find the correct degree of injection ratio and width of the aperture setting. Every room is different, so every room will respond differently to these settings. You have to determine the best settings of your unit by ear. Your hearing will tell you the truth. Go with what suits your perception the best. That is always the best setting for you.  Listen to it one way for awhile, then replay that same music track with another setting. You will eventually figure out what works best to your ears.

The better the system, the more refined the room acoustics are, will definitely play a critical part as to how you will perceive the effect of inter-aural cross-talk cancellation. That is exactly what the C9 does. It's primary purpose is to cancel out the extra sound arrivals which are not true to nature and should not be there in the music. All you have to do is experience it to understand. Once you do, it is highly likely that you will want this unit.


Think about this.

You have a digital source unit, right? Is that circuit made up of solid state components? Of course, and if it is a high quality design, you already know that it works fine with tube gear, and if well matched in the system, does so without any negative aspects that would reduce your listening experience. The tube amp is the final component to handle the signals before being fed to your speakers. The final signature will be that of the amplifier, especially a tube amplifier which I believe will act as a cleansing filter to the incoming signals introduced from a solid state device.  Is that not why it is favorable to upgrade the DAC outputs to a tube stage rather than the opamps? Of course, for the very simple reason that the tube output stage buffers the signal before going on to the amp.

The insertion of the C9 is merely an extension of the digital source. It is the final process before sending the signals directly into the amplifier.

There are some very good sounding opamps available today, but many have heard the difference using a tube buffer...and most agree that this finesses the sound signature to something more pleasing.  I guess it stems back to that comparison between digital and analog. Analog is of course more natural and is far favored by our ears.  It took many years before the digital world would create CD players that sounded anywhere near as good as the analog counterparts. The debate is still out on that one.

 People don't go the trouble and expense of owning exotic high dollar vinyl systems because they primarily enjoy spinning records with all the effort that goes into that. They do so because analog is natural, and analog is what our ears are meant to receive and understand.  Listening fatigue will always be a factor of that difference at high volume listening levels. You are likely to be audibly stressed with the digital version at higher listening levels long before this occurs with analog (providing the analog presentation is clean and distortion free). When a sine wave shows clipping of the top crest with a digital signal,  compared to the analog sine-wave showing a complete arc across the top, that alone should be clear of missing information which naturally, there is a huge difference in sound quality.

This reminds me of compression used in studio mastering. They are producing a substandard variation of the music with limited dynamic range. The final product is one that simply sounds unnatural and defective to our ears. To hear the difference is to know the difference. Once that compressed part of the music is restored back to normal, then everything is fine again to our perception. That missing information is critical. Our auditory perception can't be fooled into believing otherwise.


This is becoming an interesting journey for you, JB, and I to explore the possibilities while using the C9. I have to wonder what it will actually take to wake people up about the importance of this signal correction device and get them to realize just exactly what this process is, and why they should consider hearing it for themselves.

Perhaps with your continued input based upon your experience, and that of JB as well doing the same, I doubt people could resist the temptation of this discovery for their own affirmation.  I expect that more people than not will have a reaction similar to yours, with a full understanding immediately transposed upon initial hearing of this corrective measure.  I have to believe that the outcome will usually be positive within the full scope of experimentation. If something is amiss, I have to wonder what the real root cause is for the negative outcome.


So I hope this made sense and perhaps shed some light onto your take on things concerning this device. It is so much easier when you have actual experience using it.  You are along for the ride. Where this goes we shall just have to see.


Hope you and the family have a great Christmas!

You never know what Santa might bring.

Enjoy!



8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 12/22/24 at 12:21:30
Maybe those new electrifying interconnects will help with the point to point once energized resembling a afro doo :D

Some pics of my C-9:




RPS you could roll your own step down tranny. After the holidays, I will dig up the info on the one's I made for various units. I still have some wire and insulation for the task somewhere in my bins.

Happy Holidays too all [smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 12/24/24 at 01:38:49
RPS,

Thanks for the detailed information on parts and their part numbers. This will help me greatly as I decide how to proceed with the updates. After 42 years, I think a refresh is in order.

I'm humbled by your very generous offer to provide me with some great music to evaluate with the C9 in my system and room. This sounds like a great opportunity!
I'd be more than willing to review the music/sound and post the results here. I'm not exactly the best reviewer or writer but I think it would be fun and hopefully provide some insight to others who may be curious about the C9.
I will reach out after the holidays for sure. Thanks much!

Even though I can't set up my listening environment as the manual describes, I agree with you that one needs to try all the options on the C9 to hear what is best for their situation. With a reasonable amount of room treatment and a little work to tweak what you can with the room setup, I was able to achieve a really nice expansive soundstage that sounds very natural. It took the Decware sound to the next level. On some tracks it's a small improvement, but on others it's very obvious and very realistic. It just takes time to set the switches, listen for a while (hours/days/etc.) and then change the settings and rinse and repeat. It will be obvious at some point.

I'm also with you in the fact that it didn't take me long to hear the difference the C9 made. It was pretty much immediate, just like in your case. Maybe it's the treatment or the work I had already put in to get the speakers just right, but whatever it was, it was pretty obvious from the get-go. I'm just glad I was able to get a very big improvement even though my speaker placement couldn't be changed. (I wasn't expecting that since the manual stated multiple times 'to follow the speaker setup and listening seat exactly'.) Granted, I'm not getting the true 3D spatial sound, but I'm very, very pleased with the sound I'm getting.

Thanks for the link to the Carver video. It was humorous, cheesy, and insightful at the same time.

I too will be interested to see where this journey leads for you, JB, and I as well as any others who choose to hear what the C9 can do for their listening enjoyment.

JB,

Thanks for the pictures of the inside of your particular unit. Very interesting to see the differences in the layout.


Here's wishing you, JB, all the Decware family as well as the forumites a very Merry Christmas, New Year, and holiday season. Enjoy it y'all.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 12/25/24 at 17:33:30
 Here is my 2 cents worth. For the past 11 years, I have been rebuildingC-9 units specifically. I usually sell between $200-300 depending on the amount of options that are included. Lately, I have settled on just one option at a price of $250. I also rebuild units sent to me. In my thinking $125 is the most that I would spend on an untouched C-9 in nearly perfect shape. More if it included the original box and manual.
By going to the Carver Site, you can search my work and see for yourself what I have to offer. I will include a shot of the internals just to give an idea of the rebuild.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 12/26/24 at 18:13:41
 It occurred to me that I could add a bit more information about the rebuild. Specifically, what drew me into this whole idea were the original RCA jacks used for the unit. Since they are recessed, it can be difficult to use just any interconnects. They must have skinny barrels or else they don't fit into the RCA jack. I didn't like that at all, and looked inside to see what could be done. It took a lot of experimentation to find RCA jacks that mount to the chassis and not the circuit board  itself. I ended up using Manley Labs RCA jacks and have done it that way for years. Well, since we are now inside the unit, it is a good time to take a look at the electrolytic capacitors seeing how they are 30+ years old. There are a total of 10, and it doesn't cost that much to just replace them with new and probably better caps. Of course that led to other stuff, namely the power supply. I realize that it is only needs to be tiny, but I was into replacing two of the 4136 chips with military models which happen to draw more current. FWIW, the 4136 Texas Instrument chips (there are 5) used in this unit have an unusual pinout, making the use of an adapter for other chips such as the 2134 which is a more modern version of quad amp. Yup, tried this out, with the help of a 'Brown Dog' adapter with pre-mounted with SMD chips from yes, the company named Brown Dog. This will set you back about $35 per chip replacement. Is it worth it? Not so much in my opinion, so I went with trying to find a better 4136 chip, and that is when I discovered the metal jacketed military chip that usually runs about $20 per chip if you can find them. I only have two left at this time. They sound slightly better than the originals, but hell, we are racing cars here so every little bit helps.
I have replaced numerous other components, but will tell you that each one in its own is not likely to make any difference either. From what I have gathered, replacing those two transistors is of little value since they don't amplify but just pass the signal through upon turn on just to eliminate the turn on thump.
I have tried just about anything that you can imagine, including using a battery power supply to using a separate power supply, to well, name it. Really. In the end this is where I have ended up. Like I said in the first post a rebuild of an existing unit sent to me runs around $125, and if I get the right price on eBay for a used unit, $250 is the selling price. As expected these units have become popular, and for a while people out there were selling them as reworked/tested/rebuilt/improved. This usually meant that the little red light cam on when plugged in and nothing more. If they did show the inside, I was immediately able to tell if they were ever taken apart or not. Maybe I will give up that secret later, depending on the interest of these units, and yes, they are truly worth having in a system. Many other brands have attempted in various ways to replicate this audio illusion and I have listened to a number of them. This unit by far and away the best.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 12/26/24 at 18:37:58
The long way around, here is the replacement jacks. Notice the mounting being able accept most any interconnect.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 12/28/24 at 00:19:24
4krow,

Thanks for all the details and information regarding the C9. Very informative and nice pics as well. I am considering getting my unit refreshed and updated, especially the RCA's. This is very intriguing.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 12/28/24 at 20:47:16
The C-9 units had two different 'versions'. The first one lasted until about serial number 7,000 or so. Interestingly during the transition, there were quite a few with the new circuit but in the rack design. Either way, these can be brought back to better than new as they say, and I look forward to rebuilding yet another C-9.
Also, thank you for the kind words. I don't want to come off as too forward here, it is just that I have had a decade to bring these into better shape than ever before.
Let me look up some photos, (I have deleted a LOT of them. Just too many) and then I can post them shortly.

Regards all, Greg

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 12/28/24 at 21:03:07




Don't get too excited about the first photo with rack handles. I am still trying to convince the guy who makes these new front panels with handles to make more of them. And of course, they aren't cheap at nearly $100 extra, but you have to admit they are pretty (and accurate logo and lettering too).
You will notice that I didn't change out the transformer in that unit either. It was enough cost to my customer that he chose the front panel but not a new transformer. These days, I am not so flexible and so a new transformer is automatic with the rebuild price.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Donnie on 12/28/24 at 21:36:52
So exactly what do these Carver things do?

Echo, delay, does it bump up part of the signal??

I can remember a "Spacial Expander" that a friend of mine had back in the 80's, it added some sort of echo to the back end of notes. It sounded cool for a while, but extended listening kinda made your stomach queasy.

Anyway, I'm just curious of how and what it really does, how does it achieve the effect?

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Lon on 12/28/24 at 22:44:48
Donnie I found these which I think attempt with some success to explain the device:

https://www.highfidelityreview.com/carver-c9.html

http://www.magneticmadness.com/2017/02/carver-c-9-sonic-hologram-generator.html

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 12/28/24 at 23:50:24
Good input guys. Ironically, Wikipedia's explanation just isn't correct. This is not correcting for the Doppler effect. So, there's that.
Maybe Carver's explanation would be best, but Bob goes way beyond the limits of simply answering the question. I think of this unit as performing cross-cancellation with a bit of delay and some subtle EQ.
It is confusing to compare one product such as the C-9 with a 'Sonic Maximizer', or Hughes products or other designs that approach the problem with completely different techniques, so let's not go there for the discussion.
One thing that I try and get across to many customers is the fact that speaker placement is crucial. Distance of each speaker to the listener Must be the same. There are other considerations too but that would be number one.
Today, I don't have time to delve into this more so I can leave it at that. Two facts could be given though:
1) Whether stereo or 'sonic holography', the recording doesn't always come through as you would like. When you consider this, your system or processor needs enough information to do its job.
2) I very much enjoy what quite a few recordings can do on my system without any need for enhancement. It is just that some of the recordings can in fact benefit from some kind of help.

More later, less sooner, Greg

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 12/30/24 at 01:01:44
Donnie,

My understanding is that the Carver C9 attempts to eliminate or minimize inter-aural crosstalk. It tries to prevent your left ear from hearing sounds from the right speaker that it shouldn't be hearing and vice versa. It basically sends an additional signal (along with the left speaker's normal signal) to cancel out sounds from the right speaker that would confuse the brain. I think like an inverted phase of that signal. I don't understand the technical details, but it does more than just that and there are delay considerations as well. It does not add echo or anything like that, in fact, it's what it takes away (inter-aural crosstalk) in terms of correcting what stereo should actually sound like. It tries to restore the reality in live and real-life music and sounds. Normal stereo can sound really good but the C9 brings it more into true perspective. When your left ear hears an instrument from the left speaker, it is also potentially hearing it from the right speaker as well (depending on the recording) but a few milliseconds later. This confuses the brain a little but the C9 will counter that particular signal and allow you to hear it in the proper context. You still get the phantom center channel (when it's there) and it also allows you to hear the various instruments/voices coming from the various locations while still maintaining proper reverberation as it moves through the room. It brings the instruments into focus in their own space and creates an even more convincingly wide soundstage. I hope I'm making sense here, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong or I'm missing important information.

The thing is, if you read the manual, it highlights the fact that you MUST follow the setup exactly or you won't benefit from the full effect that the C9 has to offer. It wants you to pull the speakers out and close together (maybe no more than 5' apart center cone to center cone) with precise distance to the listener, etc. Doing this is supposed to give you a fantastic 3D sound stage in all its glory. (if it's in the recording.... Classical music doesn't lend itself so much to this though)

Because of my room and setup, I am unable to conform to the 'correct' arrangement described in the manual. I am however able to get a great effect from the C9 regardless. (to my surprise actually) I thought without the ability to setup the speakers and listening chair just so, I would not benefit much from the C9. I couldn't have been more wrong. I don't get the 3D sound all around me, or things behind me, or sounds circling around my head, but I get a very realistic and expansive soundstage. It brings the great Decware sound to the next level for me. I don't know if others would get the same results without moving their speakers or putting in at least some modest room treatment, but if you have your room as good as it can sound in stereo, then I'm willing to bet you would benefit to a good degree with the C9. Maybe it's my unique room, acoustics, setup, I don't know, but I'm really liking what I'm hearing.

I hope this helps and doesn't confuse anyone.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 12/30/24 at 01:39:04
mrchipster,

 That explanation is better than what I could come up with, and is accurate from beginning to end. Thank you.
Maybe I missed it but could you take good photo of the missing fuse and maybe anything else that looks to be squirreled with?
Truth is guys, even if a C-9 is inoperable, I can repair/rebuild it.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 12/30/24 at 03:05:09
4krow,

Please take a look on page 5 starting at reply #239. It attempts to show the circumvented fuse, the iffy soldering to the spare receptacle, and the current state of the transformer. Reply #241 shows the full board (albeit at a distance). If you would like more or different pictures just let me know.

It also looks like the 4 large yellow caps have been replaced at some point, but I don't know for sure. Looking at the latest schematic for the latest Rev (F) it shows that two caps should be 16V and two should be 25V. It looks like all 4 of those yellow caps are 16V. Maybe it's because my unit (#606) being part of the original builds only called for 16V. Just wanted to point that out in case it matters.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 12/30/24 at 17:24:57
Post #239 got me up to date alright. I have seen this level of work before and it always makes me wince. I won't even guess as to what the guy was thinking when he did this, but his effort turns out to be a mistake in more than one way. I won't offer an explanation as the results speak for themselves. Good soldering practice begins with using the right tools for the job and yes this includes the solder itself. Just like anyone else out there who started in this hobby, I had to separate the wheat from the chaff, and I can't state enough how important that using a good soldering station, tip, and solder has become for me. I use different solders for different purposes sometimes, such silver content solder for audio joints and lead/tin solder for some bigger power applications. Always use a respectable solder. I tend to like Wonder solder overall, but also have Johnson, Kester, and WBT silver solder. This stuff can all add up to be very expensive and I was lucky to make a trade with someone who had an abundance of different spools. Same goes with desoldering. You better have the right stuff or you will lift traces right off the board.
As far as the yellow caps, they are original. Time and time again, I see units from the factory with alternate choices used for the circuit. Since it is a +-12 VDC, 16 volt caps will work, but just about everyone uses 25 volt caps. Same with the output audio caps. The original uses 4.7uf and then the newer unit uses 22uf. Some people like to use bipolar caps in this instance too, but I think that Nichicon polarized audio caps are just fine. I am pretty set with the parts that I use, as I have heard little if any difference between them.
If I had tyo argue one point about this unit it would be about the RCA jacks themselves. Let's see, we are taking a 1-2 volt AC audio signal using some expensive and great sounding cable. Gotcha. Now tell me what quality should the connector be on the end of the line? A 45 cent part that usually cracks, has a questionable connection, and is prone to corrosion? Not me. The Manley Labs RCA jacks that they use in all of their equipment is only $5 per jack, uses Teflon insulation and has a tight fit that won't fail the transfer of audio signal. And on we go. i had better stop here since I could rant on and on. It's just that in this specific case, I have been around the block a few times, and only a few years ago, became satisfied with all of what I use in these rebuilds. Thanks for listening.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/04/25 at 19:40:38



As of 1400hrs eastern time today(1/4/25), there are THREE Carver C9 units for sale on Ebay at a very good price.

For anyone wanting one, this is a great opportunity to snag one.   One unit under $150.00!

 People, for what these units do for your music, this unit is valued much higher than a ridiculously low price like that. I would gladly pay upwards of $1000 or more for a new unit like this to have something this good in my system. (IT IS ABSOLUTELY WORTH IT!)

If you don't understand why, then perhaps you need to do your homework, or better yet, get one and find out instantly why.

It won't be long before the resurgence of the C9 popularity drastically increases the price due to demand. It is already happening. Get one now while they are still cheap, and still available.

Just the messenger here, you will thank me later.





WAIT...now there are only TWO units for sale on Ebay.   I just bought another unit for only $149.00

This unit is newer than the one I already have. Very good condition and in great working order. It looks untouched and factory original.

Hurry...two left....maybe??

:o

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/04/25 at 20:11:47
Since there seems to be such interest in the C-9 unit itself, let me bring up two other great possibilities. I don't know if the builder still has one of these left, but he cloned the Carver C-9 unit as an SMD design. Most importantly to me was that he also made it with remote control capabilities! To me, that is enough to buy the unit at $500. I will try and find him on US Audio Mart. This is an all new unit, made by a real craftsman.
Second possibility is looking into Jim Fosgate's SS-X Sound Stage Expander at a price of $575. Why would you want this unit? Well, as it happens I bought one and will back the build quality of the case and everything else. I always take the top off units to take a peek inside. Thank you Jim Fosgate. Remember Jim? He was the engineer who invented Dolby B for tape decks. Yah, that guy. Let me sell you on two of the best features of the unit. First of all for my use, it has a variable bass control that is the main reason that I got it. I got lucky and it works perfectly for my needs. Secondly and just as important, the Sonic Hologram can be adjusted by means of a knob on the front. Now that is great because you can dial it in to match the needs of the recording. I should also mention that it uses a 12AU7 tube.
Not that I am not a fan of the C-9. Nobody is more of a fan, but there are just a couple of options that I think that you may want to consider in the big picture.

Just went to US Audio Mart and there are TWO units. One is the unit that I described with a remote control for $499. Worth every penny. The other unit is actually one that I built a few years ago, and I see that the seller wants $280. Good price considering that it also includes what is called a switchable Gundry Dip circuit. I don't do those anymore due to the trouble of wiring them in, but since this unit already has one, you should consider it. That is all that I have today.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Tony on 01/04/25 at 21:19:11

Thanks for the info 4krow.  I could not find the link, can you provide a link or the search term you used?

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/04/25 at 22:25:41
 You're welcome Tony.

It probably is really apparent by now that I enjoy experiments and all things holographic, no matter how you get there.
Ok, so this is the best that I can do..
>>> Go to US Audio Mart and search for 'Carver C-9'<<<. Two units should come up for you. Investigate both as they are actually the same circuit but in different housings (Plus one of them is remote controllable) I will work on getting a photo of the latter unit. It is made by 'Jeffs' at the Carver Site. I now remember that I once worked on a circuit board that he designed for an electronic crossover, and it was very impressive.
Ok so I think that Music Direct has the Black Ice Audio SS-X (used to be Jolida). Now they are making the version II of this but the changes are minor. You know how that goes.
In either case, I find it important for the customer to have the option of returning a unit if it doesn't perform as expected. I say this tongue in cheek because too many folks want 'plug and play', when there is some effort to room considerations (aren't there always?) and speaker placement. I have had two units returned in over 10 years, so that says something, right?

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/04/25 at 22:35:25
Go to Black Ice Audio. Sorry Music Direct doesn't carry it anymore. Second photo is of the remote controlled C-9.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/05/25 at 01:01:54
I don't know if the builder still has one of these left, but he cloned the Carver C-9 unit as an SMD design. Most importantly to me was that he also made it with remote control capabilities! To me, that is enough to buy the unit at $500.

Thanks for joining in here on this thread 4krow. Your input is very valuable and of great interest.

Yes, I was aware some time back that there was a project in the works like this. I could never find out if the unit ever was finished, and offered for sale. I guess we have the answer now, and that is good to hear.

The actual benefits of inter-aural cross-talk elimination by means of sonic holography, compared to other audio components in the signal chain which cost many times over this device, offer far more accuracy and reality to the stereo representation, making it far more valuable. This of course when you consider how valuable this circuit is to CORRECTING the REAL problem with stereo imaging.

None of those other devices are doing anything about that.  Sort of like going into battle with live fire targeting your position, and your gun is loaded with blanks. Looks real, but you just won't win any battles.  The C9 is the ultimate weapon for doing exactly what it was designed to do. One will never truly understand the result of this circuit without actually experiencing it.

To be complete, ALL audiophile amplifiers should employ this circuit with the means of total bypass or engagement when desired if they are to be considered the "best" out there. The first amp builder wise enough to recognize this premium upgrade will have the best amp available for accurate music representation. This of course when stereo speakers are used in a properly set up configuration in relation to the listener. And THAT amplifier is going to sell like crazy!

I became aware of sonic holography back in 1986 when I purchased the newly designed C-4000t pre-amplifer which had this circuit built in. That was as close as anyone ever got this circuit to the actual amp, outside of the C9. I have always missed what that circuit did for my music, and now I am reunited with it after many long years. I feel like I have come home to the way audio should be. I will not part with it again.

No ordinary amplifier will EVER correct for the single most responsible cause which absolutely destroys imaging within the real representation of music. The amplifier which actually accomplishes this correction is the ONLY amp I am interested in to take the place of my ToriMK3, and for good reason.  I guarantee you that if I set up blind tests with several individuals, A-B switching from an amp with this circuit built in (bypass or engage modes), then asked them which they preferred, I am placing high stakes on the outcome in favor of the cross-talk cancellation circuit being engaged.

The combination of the ToriMk3 and the C9 work together in perfect harmony. I believe that a high quality amp such as a Tori is the exact catalyst which brings out the best of what the C9 does. I believe the outcome of what you hear from the C9 is in direct relation with the Q factors of the amplifier, and the actual speaker design, as they work together in a synergistic way. The outcome is dependent upon that very combination. Of course, do not rule out the importance of room acoustics. That in itself plays the most important role in how this whole image is to be perceived in it's truest form.

The purity and accuracy which the Tori amplifiers provide are taken to the extreme with the addition of the C9 circuit. To be exactly what they should be. How are you going to hear the true imaging capabilities of an amplifier if your speakers are sending you false signals which confuse and mask your detection of the real image? You won't until corrective action is employed. It is my experience that with this joint effort, the amp is taken up quite a few notches which no other amp by itself would compare. I will bet with absolute confidence on that one.

Back in the eighties, one of Bob Carver's dealers had a very smart selling practice that he used in his store. That dealer would place marks on the floor for customers to stand on as they listened to the music in front of them. They had no idea what they were listening to, or that any special circuit was being employed. The majority of all customers who listened to this test were excited and motivated by what they just experienced. That dealer always sold at least one unit per day, every day the store was open, as a result of that simple test. Hearing is believing. The unit simply sold itself.

I am not interested in the complexity of modern DSP devices in my system for which computers are involved. The C9 circuit is as basic and direct as needs to be, no more complex or signal hampering than a traditional DAC circuit itself. I have yet to uncover absolutely ANY detrimental detection by using this C9 circuit between my DAC and the ToriMK3 amplifier. As a matter of fact, if I remove the C9, the system falls flat on it's face! For me, it just is no longer worth listening to after hearing the truth behind what is resolved here in the music.

I doubt that I would enjoy listening to music the same way without the inter-aural signal correction again, after what I hear now.   The only exception to that would be Classical music for the majority of it's offerings. Not to say that there is not a worthwhile improvement, but it is minor, and won't be missed all too much. However, I do have some premium audiophile Classical recordings that really take on new life when the C9 is used. It really depends upon how the musicians were miked and to how the studio engineered the master recording.

Again, this unit does not ADD anything (except for the cancellation signal). It simply subtracts and removes what should not be there in the first place. Nothing more, nothing less, period! Signal inversion, and timing delay in the right degree of injection, play a major part in that process. This really is an active filter when you get to the core of it.

Experience is reality. The truth can't be denied. That truth is found in the recording.


Thanks again for posting this information. Perhaps you can shed even more light upon the value of the C9 and what it actually contributes to the quality of music imaging.  Sounds like you are a good source for those who need upgrades or repairs. Your pricing seems fair for what you provide.

Those are nice looking units from Black Ice Audio. I would like to audition them to see how they compare. I think they might get expanded interest from this forum, especially this thread.

I just ask that direct links are not posted here on my thread. Just simply refer to a website if you will. ( I am not referring to you 4krow. You are fine)

I do not provide direct links here, and I don't think it is respectful to these forums when it is done. I refer to certain websites sometimes, but I try not to provide actual links that are easily clicked on. That borders on spam activity.

I thank everyone for understanding that request, as I appreciate that compliance.

Now everyone back to their music!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/05/25 at 04:27:04
This is a subject that i could discuss all day long. In fact, it does remind me of a site that is focused just on the C-9 itself and many recordings that are perfect for it. Give me some time to remember the name of that site. As it happened, I got to rebuild a unit for the 'top guy' of the site and found humbling in its own way, and pride as well to have been asked.
It is true. The C-9 unit uses cross cancelation, a bit of delay, and a slight bit of frequency EQ. As to the amount used depends on the buttons depressed/selected. Maybe we will go more into that at a later time.
I am thinking that it was around 1985 before I ever heard a C-9, and like many out there, was hooked from that moment on (at least when a recording called for its enhancement). It was Bob Carver's best selling product ever, and even wins by an edge over the units that had it built in. I cannot give a good reason why but hearing is believing. The C-9 is top dog.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 01/06/25 at 09:54:18
Carter was a buzz word back in the 80's in the geek circles on my turf. Please no offense to anyone - just my view back then. I was happy with my Pioneer and Bose 901s at the time. The C-9 is new to me. It is one device that found a permanent home in my system.

As a side, I think that the reference to doppler effect is valid as it pertains to the space between our ears.

Your work is top notch 4Krow ;)

RPS, the company that sells toroid transformer kits is in Maryland. Toroid Corporation
2020 Northwood Drive
Salisbury, MD 21801

The smallest kit is 80VA. Way to big IMO for a stock C-9 but might work better with added upgrades. The kits includes a core wound with the primary wire and insulation. A manual is included with all the info needed to add magnet wire for custom secondaries. The company also offers engineering for a custom design at reasonable costs.

I am still trying to get caught up around home. So far each day of this new year I've been pulled away from my intentions of finishing the upgrades in the Charoit with parts on hand by necessary mundane tasks! Maybe today it will change.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/06/25 at 22:02:06
Of course you mean Carver as in Bob, and not Carter as in Jimmy. A little humor, yet they were both buzz words back in the day.
Pioneer made a Spec 1 power amp that I had, which was an introduction to great sound. Bose? Nah, I went for Kits by Speaker Lab in Washington state after Boing took a dive. built their corner horns. Didn't think ahead about moving back then.
Reconsidering the doppler effect as you use it, gives some merit for Wikipedia after all.
The transformer in the C-9 is probably 150-200 ma. I upped the transformer to a 400 ma size and it barely fits. I think that split bobbin design would be an interesting go for not transferring RFI by way of its design, whereas the toroid designs are prone to that as I understand it.
Some supplies are being delivered this week for my inventory to be complete for yet another rebuild. This time of year is tricky though with holidays adding to backloaded suppliers.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/06/25 at 23:49:09
Ok, so I remembered the FB Carver Sonic Holography group, started by John Smallwood. The best thing about this site/group is that they know pretty well what recording really respond to the C-9 unit.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/07/25 at 02:18:56



Now that I just finished spending my afternoon shoveling a foot deep of heavy snow from my 40 ft driveway, and the sidewalk in front of my house, I can actually get on here and reply.  My joints are enduring a bit of pain now as a result. At my age, this is not the thing I want to spend my day doing. I will bear through it, as my mind always gets me through the tough spots. I still think that I am 30 years old physically! I think I will relocate back south...LOL   This is why they make Crown Royal....and that just may come in handy tonight.

:D


So anyway,


Of course you mean Carver as in Bob, and not Carter as in Jimmy. A little humor, yet they were both buzz words back in the day.

Well, maybe JB actually thought Jimmy created the C9?

;D

Can't remember much of anything else worthwhile that he did other than the Habitat For Humanity project....but that is another story. I began my military service at the same time Jimmy went out the door. You could not buy a real job back in 1979 and 1980. I had no choice but to enlist. Either that or become homeless.   F*** THAT!  The military created a path to my future, and I am a better man for it.   So thanks Jimmy...rest in peace. Every time that I listen with the C9, I will be thinking of you.

[smiley=dankk2.gif]

Alright, no more ragging on JB, he has been having a hard time with all of that work he is doing.  Get 'r done  JB.



The kits includes a core wound with the primary wire and insulation. A manual is included with all the info needed to add magnet wire for custom secondaries.

Thanks JB.  This won't be necessary since 4krow was generous enough to share information about the C9 upgrades including a good source for the transformer which has a very low price. Since he has strong experience with the C9 circuit, and he knows what works well, I am going to go with his choice and see how it goes. I can always change it later if desired.

Thanks for that info Greg.


I am very pleased that 4krow has joined in here as he is a valuable source of information and help.  I hope that he gets more business due to this thread. I also hope that he can influence others just how good this unit is, and how crucial it is in a system.

I did note that someone bought the second of the three C9's on Ebay, the one from NYC.  Just wondering if it was a member here?

That last unit is an early model with the rack mount notches like the one mrchipster bought.  Seems to still be there for sale.

I now have two of the late model units, my current being a '86 model, and the one I just bought, most likely a '87 model due to the much higher serial number.  One will always be in the system while the other is undergoing upgrades, and repopulating of the board components. I need to strip down one of these circuit boards anyway to perform some backwards engineering.  It will be rebuilt with all new components, much higher quality than original.

I do have a quandary concerning upgrades to the switches.

Greg, perhaps you could shed some light on this. I know that this mod has been done before, and I would like to do the same with my new build.

I do not like the limited output of the push switches. It makes so much more sense to have stepped attenuation for precise control for each of the controls (injection ratio and aperture). By tracing the circuits for each mode under the 3 key push switches, I assume that a DPDT 6 pin (ON_ON) toggle switch would work for basic switch upgrades.  Please inform as that being correct based upon your experience.


But, it will take rotary stepped attenuation in order to accomplish the task as I want to engineer it for flexible fine tuning.

What is your take on making this happen?  Could you shed some light as to making this work?  It would help to know a part that works well for this, and of course, having a diagram as to the wiring for a C9 installation.

If this becomes too complex, I will just remain with a chassis mount push switch, again thinking that a DPDT (ON_ON) 6 pin toggle switch would work for this.  Please inform if this is incorrect.

*Note:  I am not just rebuilding a current C9. I am building a new design which has a different component layout. This will either be point to point, or built onto a PCB.  My plan is to integrate this circuit along with a new DAC circuit inside of the same chassis. The original C9 layout is only for reference.

I noticed that you installed two of the resistors with high grade 1 percent metal types. Obviously, you have found this upgrade to be audibly beneficial. By any chance, are these two resistors for R121 & R122?  Those are the ones located near the HOLOGRAM INPUT switch.

What improvement did you hear from this?  I am going to use all 1 and 2 percent resistors for my build anyway. I am using mostly Vishay metal film for mine.

Because OSCON (Sanyo/Panasonic) type electrolytic capacitors have a good reputation for sound quality in DAC circuits, I am thinking about using these in the power supply.  Have you tried other capacitance variations with this circuit, and if so, what do you recommend? Your choice of transformer replacement seems to be a viable one, so that seems to be the option to use. The cost of toroid types are very expensive, so have to wonder if they are worth it for this application?

Also, do the Vishay high speed rectifiers actually make a noticeable difference with this circuit over the standard ones used originally? I see that they claim to have less "bleed-back" in the reverse direction, which is something that makes good sense as to the outcome, but these are for very high frequency applications where this type is required.  I don't see that being much of a need for this unit, but they are much better than stock, so might as well upgrade with them.  They are cheap and readily available at Mouser, so it would be foolish not to use them.  Just wondering if this actually makes a noticeable difference audibly.

Anyway, any guidance you can provide me on this would be helpful and much appreciated.

I do have a mystery for a couple of resistor values in relation to the pins on one of the IC's. I can't identify them in the circuit schematic. I will have to crop that section and show you the two mystery values sometime later.

 Just wondering if you can identify these values and solve this mystery.  Other than that, the schematic is easy to follow, just very hard to see some of the layout due to poor print quality.  I could locate these on the CB, but I don't want to mess with the current C9 in my system now. It would be easier if someone like yourself could identify these resistors and confirm the actual values. Not many people would know this unless you service these units.

If you think that you can identify these, please let me know, and I will show you the locations in question.  

Otherwise, I will have to identify them on the actual board, and determine the values there by the value markings.  It really seems strange that these two are so unclear. Either they were forgotten in the schematic drawing, or perhaps a change was made. I need to figure this out. There does seem to be some disagreement between the parts list values, and what the schematic shows. Seems someone made an error here, or perhaps not.

If you are not comfortable divulging this information, I understand. Thought I would ask since you are the expert on rebuilding the C9.

Thanks for your help.

And BTW: Since you ragged on JB about Carter, you left out the "E" in Boeing.......just messing with you. But I thought it was funny what you said. I assume you meant Boeing?

As for the "Doppler" reference, I think that needs to be avoided, as to not confuse people anymore on how this circuit works. It is complex enough for making people understand exactly what it really is, so let's stick with Bob's white papers on this technology. This would be helpful for this thread.

Thanks.


[smiley=icqlite14.png]




As for the last post,

Ok, so I remembered the FB Carver Sonic Holography group, started by John Smallwood. The best thing about this site/group is that they know pretty well what recording really respond to the C-9 unit.



Sure, as I myself have learned through experience many (about 90 percent of my library) very interesting sound tracks which make this unit noteworthy to say the least.  The discs that I sent mrchipster are going to be very enlightening to him as to just how much these recordings come into play using the C9. It will be very interesting to hear his thoughts about these.

Thanks for posting that information.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 01/07/25 at 11:00:34

Quote:
This is why they make Crown Royal....and that just may come in handy tonight.


Yes, much better then Billy Beer!

I spent yesterday morning fooling with the HVAC humidifier. Those units got to be one of the most finicky creations. Today the misses informed me of a shopping adventure. Will have to shovel the 5" or so snow now >:(

I was wondering why you were bent on a toroid tranny. My use was for the Sheldon DAC that required many different secondaries for the circuits. The C-9 just calls for two simple taps and very low current. I understand why 4Krow upped the tranny in his builds with the new chip's increased current demand. I think the later models with a Shaxon tranny are good as is. There is test procedures in the service manual for checking functions of a C-9. If it passes those, maybe best to leave it alone. Maybe?

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/07/25 at 19:40:53
I will gladly share any information about the C-9 and my experience with it. You all couldn't be more welcome for showing such interest in a product that got swept under the rug due to the advent of the Home Theater rage.
As a lot of you have already done, going to the Carver Site will give free downloads for the owners and service manual. That is just the tip of the iceberg folks. There are many pages of information about the circuit, one notable 'upgrade' was called the RichP modification. It is a little tongue in cheek since it was suggested that Rich was adopting the C-9 to HIS particular system and not for all the world to emulate. It does back off the bass a bit and change one of the high frequency filter points. In this line of thinking, it could noted that Carver himself (not Jimmy or Billy) made a slight change to the first rack mounted unit concerning delay IIRC, in which the second unit circuit incorporated.
Let me review the last post with the questions and points and get back with an answer.
FWIW, I was the one who bought the C-9 on eBay for $145 + 10 for shipping. I will be working on it sometime next week, but AFTER the rebuilding of yet another unit. One at a time. And the beat goes on. Are you sure that they shouldn't be called 'Boing?'

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/07/25 at 19:51:13
 Many questions can be answered by going to the Carver Site and search for 'C-9 rebuild'. I will compile my answers soon enough, but there is a Hell of a lot of info at that site.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/07/25 at 23:53:48
Before I offer information here, I want to be clear about something. I am a builder, not an engineer. I have to rely on others to compile information and then try it for myself. In some cases, I have made my own changes that resulted in a sound that I still stand behind, but that may be the exception.
How far someone may want to go with a complete rebuild, meaning change out every single part on the board including switches, go ahead. I have done that too, and found no viable reason to do it again. Did it sound better? probably, in some sort of minuscule way. Ok, so here is a list of what i have info about the last posted questions:
1) Look inside of the chassis to get a quality assurance date. Then you have a good idea when the unit was actually built.
2) DPDT will work fine for switches. just make sure to get a quality switch with maybe silver contacts.
3) An attenuator may work, but I really can't say for sure. I applaud the idea but have never done so myself.
4) Contact 'jeffs' at the Carver Site for the best information about building your own unit. After all, he has already made 6 of them.
5) SF4007 diodes are the replacement that I chose for the rectifying bridge because they are a higher quality and faster diode. Now this won't matter so much with 4136 chips but it may if you decide to use 2134 chips instead. in the end, I see no reason not to use them.
6) .1 uf bypass caps are there for RFI reduction. These days, I wouldn't think of not using them.
7) Do these things ADD UP to better sound? Not each individually but in concert together, I think that the units sound a little better, but certainly not worse. After all, since you are in there, I see nothing wrong with replacing parts with higher tolerance parts in order to 'tighten up' the circuit.
8) Schematics, parts diagrams, part lists and much more are available for anyone at the Carver Site.
No doubt, you will see parts that don't add up in some units and I just stick with the schematics/parts list. You will find the component location diagram to be indispensable for unknown or uncertain values and of course the circuit board tells all.  

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/08/25 at 21:07:21
Before I offer information here, I want to be clear about something. I am a builder, not an engineer. I have to rely on others to compile information and then try it for myself. In some cases, I have made my own changes that resulted in a sound that I still stand behind, but that may be the exception.



Greg, thanks for the reply.

Yes, absolutely. That defines most of us in general.

As for the Carver site. As I said, I had reviewed the info there several months ago, and checked again yesterday. The thread of interest concerning the "NEW" C9 build seems to have stopped in 2023. Nothing much continued in that thread since then.  Since the site requires sign in to get access to information, that will have to wait until later when I want to spend the time creating an account there. I was not planning to do that, but I will if it is worth doing so.

I do not really seek major improvement with the C9 rebuild, can't really expect it. It either works or it doesn't. After that many years, Caps go bad, and the IC's will tend to drift out of spec from what I have heard. Going from components that are rated 20 percent and upgrading to better quality versions at 1 or 2 percent is obviously going to provide a more stable circuit. Other than that, I am not trying to create a "new wheel" concept here. I just need to duplicate the circuit and update to my needs.

I do think that the bypass caps are a good idea, and will look into that.

As for the service manual download from the Carver site, that one is a bad quality low resolution copy created on a copy machine scanner. There is a much better source for that manual download from the UK. It actually looks like the original, and is much better resolution. It too is a free download. That schematic is hard to see some of the detail when the print quality is bad. But at any rate, we are fortunate that this info exists.

I will figure it out, I always do.  I just wanted your perspective as someone experienced with this unit. So thank you for the info, and I shall proceed with this project as time allows. If someone has something worthwhile that offers credible consideration here, I am always open to hear about it.

If I make a mistake, so what. That is how we learn. Everything is cheap to replace on this board, and I have two C9's in good condition. Not a problem if something gets fried or there is a set back. It will get repaired.

I will most likely save myself the hassle and simply use the DPDT toggle switches. There are plenty of the 3 key switches similar to the original stock switches on Ebay which should be a direct swap in. I like the toggle switches better.

The C9 works well with the stock design, so most likely not worth the hassle of changing it.

Perhaps you know that Bob created a new version of sonic holography under the Sunfire name. The updated version of his C9 uses an algorithm based upon DSP implementation of its original concept. I bought a new (Sunfire Signature Grand) home theater amp back when it first came out.

Of course a multi channel amp does not require something designed for two channel stereo, but he obviously had this circuit built into his Sunfire products. I was not aware that he extended the life of the C9 into his Sunfire products, but he did. He knew that sonic holography was too good to just let die in the past. As long as there is two channel stereo, this device always has a reason for being.


Before his last company (Bob Carver Corp.) closed it's doors due to the corona virus, he was marketing a set of line arrays which created the same result as what the C9 does, except it was by way of masterful design within the speaker itself. If you have not watched his presentation concerning the technology behind those speakers, you owe it to yourself by doing so.

The cost of those speakers as well as his tube amp designs were priced so far out of range for the average consumer, that people like me could not afford them. I wouldn't pay that much anyway, simply way too much!

He came out of retirement because he was bored and wanted to keep designing tube amps. After selling Sunfire Corporation, money was not an issue for his retirement. Designers like him do it till the end. It is in their nature to do so. He even stated that he will be creating new tube amp designs until the day he takes his last breath. His genius mind as a Physicist never remains idle. Unfortunately, that time is limited, that is if he is still alive today?

Bob's journey into the world of amplifier design came a long ways to the top from where he started in college with his first high powered "coffee can" amplifier he entered into the McIntosh competition. He most certainly stirred things up in the audio world with that entry. That story is a fascinating one, well worth hearing. This of course started it all for him with a soon to be venture into his first company (Phase Linear). The rest is history.

As it has been said, all good things must come to an end. But we don't have to let the memory die with it.

And that is Carver with a V.




;D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/08/25 at 23:10:33
RPS,

I enjoyed reading this latest post today. You have the right spirit. Sure enough, the C-9 is just simple enough for me not to get very worried about even if something were to 'pop'. I will take in a non working C-9 sometimes and the fix is usually like needing a new transformer, or capacitor gone bad. It is actually rare that these have trouble.
Now on the other hand, the sometimes comes a unit that makes me wince, having been 'upgraded' all to hell. Nasty solder joints, 8 amp diodes (Really!) Traces being 'fixed' in the ugliest possible way, and even a couple of parts missing! I guess if you do something long enough, you are bound to have stories. I have made a few mistakes of my own, ending up with me staring at the circuit board until either I see it or I don't and get the meter out.
Yes, Bob did have plans in 2023 of remaking the C-9 and invited suggestions from members of the site. Frankly, I did not agree with ideas adding more circuitry and other odds and ends. The only thing that I suggested was a variable amount of SH using a volume control or some such. Well, that whole process just kind of died.
I admit, I am not much of a joiner myself, but it was the best way for me to start gathering information back in 2011? or something. I forget.
I am so glad that you found clearer schematics and such. What a pain it can be to try and read blotches. At this point, I have made laminated sheets for reference. Every so often I check to see which was a diode or something goes, even though I am 'sure'.
You might try to avoid using those new switches that are pushbutton types. I have had too much bad luck with even the German ones. When there is a popping that seems to be switch related, it can also be something else anyway. In the big picture, it is likely that the pop you hear is tiny and does not occur when actual  listening to music takes places, so keep that in mind. A good toggle switch is the way to go I think if you are building your own. Remote control relays are the top of the heap for being able to switch from the listening position, but that kind of stuff has to be spelled out pretty cleanly for a guy like me.
What chassis have you considered/ There are a mountain of choices... most of them , meh.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/09/25 at 02:30:38

I thought you might find that interesting Greg.

Anyone that enjoys and understands the C9 should find all of this discussion interesting.


It doesn't surprise me as to just how bad those hacks get. It's as though the units were turned over to a 7 year old to experiment with alongside daddy as he did his bench work.  Some people have no business playing around with things like this. Then after they screw everything up, they want to blame the product, not the poor hack job. It is surprising that some of these "modified" units even work at all. They most likely don't since they are sending them to you for repair.

I see this kind of thing in auto mechanics and home repairs quite often. It just baffles me as to how pathetic these hack jobs are. Some of these can be dangerous. I could just imagine asking a person with no experience and zero knowledge of avionics to go troubleshoot and repair a component that is critical to flight safety.  I don't want to be the pilot on that aircraft. You better have a strong understanding and a great deal of experience before you make decisions like that. Maybe that is why a federal license is required after years of training and hands on experience. Yep, pretty sure that is correct.  If I had a crew member ever produce work like that under my supervision, he would soon be seeking a new job. I won't tolerate it. Wouldn't matter, quality control would never certify the work anyway, but someone has to be responsible to do the right thing.

I know when I see something done as to the knowledge and expertise of the builder or technician. It is very obvious.  By showing your work, I think the images give justice as to your refined skills with these projects.  Good work will take you places.

So anyway, if I am not sure of something, I find a credible source of information in order to feel confident about it. With confidence, one usually does well. Otherwise, I simply leave it alone.

But you know, sometimes Wile E Coyote has to be dangerous and get into a bit of trouble, just because he can.



[smiley=tunes57.gif]

1-800-ACME


I appreciate that someone like yourself is keeping the C9 alive and in good order. This unit just never got the attention or respect that it deserves from the audio community. (although it did create quite the following back when it was still available at the dealer stores)  

Just like video killed the radio star, surround sound forced stereo to the backseat and nobody cared anymore.  Surround sound is synthetic and sounds like it. Stereo sounds natural because it is closer to the truth. When a stereo image is conveyed correctly the way it is meant to be heard, the sound quality and perception of it is far more realistic within the imaging and sound-stage.  Once the C9 comes into play, there is absolutely no comparison between the two forms of audio. Besides, I don't want all of that solid state circuitry producing my sound. I will take my ToriMk3 coupled to the C9, with the speakers I designed and built, over that garbage any day.

Besides, I don't see any of my music library being "surround sound" compatible. My recordings are real recordings, from the master tapes that represent the real recordings performed in the studio.  ALL of my music titles are C9 compatible!

If I went to the audio dealer and was asked to choose between listening room A with the most expensive surround sound setup, and room B with a high quality stereo set up using the C9, I would choose room B by a hands down decision without a shadow of doubt. Would only take a few minutes to understand that.

It is a shame that Bob could not have continued producing this circuit by licensing it out to a trusted audio company. Like I said, he did offer a revised design based upon the C9 with Sunfire, but I have never seen that offering. Not sure if it was produced as a stand alone unit, or simply integrated into the pre-amps?  Whether or not the patent is expired, that questions a clean slate, and anything is possible. Not sure if it is still legally bound.

I think there is room for resurgence in the audio community today for the C9. After all, who ever thought that vinyl would make a strong comeback after being declared dead for many years!  It took a resurgence of demanding audiophiles to make that need understood. Now just look at how much money is being made on the vinyl format, and for very good reason.  Turns out that true audio purists never forgot what natural analog sound was like. Sure, digital sounds pretty good today with modern technology, but many still demand the sound of vinyl and will have it no other way. When you grew up listening to good quality analog music, that memory remains forever. Anything else pales by comparison.


Audio snobs won't accept that something like the C9 is good enough for their overpriced BULL**** systems due to bragging rights and prestige.  If it cost a few thousand dollars, then perhaps the acknowledgement would be there.  What they don't realize is that this unit does more for true stereo representation than any other audio device built up to the point it was introduced.  I have known how important this technology has been every since 1986. Between the holography circuit and the amazing loudspeakers that were new at that time from Bob Carver, my audio world was very special. That experience remained locked within my memory for all these years. Nothing since has ever brought me that level of satisfaction. I feel so complete now that I have this device back in my system. Wish I had done it much earlier. Better late than never.

Growing up as a kid in the 60's and a teenager in the 70's, I am fond of the audio memories I had during those years.  Of course, transistors were rapidly replacing tubes, but that is all in the name of advancement. That "advancement" left audio as people knew it in the dark. What happened to the great sound everyone had been accustomed to?  Transistors didn't quite sound the same, now did they? New technology does not always equate to better quality music. Give me a tube amp, a reel to reel, and a high end turntable system, and I am in audio heaven! Never really needed anything more to be satisfied. The C9 was the only device that ever proved to be the exception.


Thanks for the heads up concerning the switches. That is exactly why I focused upon toggle switches. Yes, I am putting out the big bucks for high quality types, and yes, they have silver contacts.  That is an area of vital importance, just as the quality of the RCA jacks are vital. I don't mind manual controls, the more basic, the less hassle. Besides, one has to get out of that listening chair once in awhile anyway. I am pretty set upon the switch positions once I deem a setup that I like. I don't see alternating the switch positions once I have found what I like. If I was doing testing with A/B comparisons , then I can see where having a remote control feature would be viable. I just don't need it.

I just want the device to be free of noise, sound like it is supposed to sound, and provide a long service free operation.  That is all one could expect.  I am pleased with the way it performs now, but due to age, it really could use a rebuild.  The only other mod I feel necessary is to upgrade with an IEC fused power switch/outlet. I will use the transformer you use. That seems to be the good choice.

Looking at the aluminum chassis available at Mouser, I see several that would work fine for a reasonable price. If I was only going to produce this circuit by itself within an isolated enclosure, I would get one of those just big enough to fit.  However, since I want to make a project integrating this circuit along with a new DAC circuit, this will require a much larger enclosure.

I actually fabricated several enclosures made from strong heavy gauge aircraft aluminum in the sheet metal shop back when I was still working as an aircraft tech on Boeing aircraft. I professionally painted them in the booth with heat curing. They have blank face plates ready for any layout desired.

I wanted something better looking and unique. The metal was free from the scrap pile, and I had the machines to create them professionally. I doubt that I would use them due to size for something like this project.

These are large, as I planned to use them for new surround sound processor enclosures for Denon internals. ( I have several huge Denon surround processors that I got cheap due to power supply failure) This was common with these units. The fix is cheap, and easy if you are willing to do the repair. I fixed one that I use now. The others are in storage waiting for new life.

So my plan is to possibly repurpose a Tascam CD200 chassis for this purpose. I may just retro fit the new components within a working model after removing the stock DAC circuit. There should be room for it, as it would simply be all integrated into one unit, transport and all.  Not sure yet, just a few ideas I am considering for now.  You can get a used CD player at Goodwill for under ten bucks and gut it out for a usable chassis. Just need to fabricate a new face plate. The size would be perfect for my needs.

As for now, I need to get my act together concerning the build of the actual circuit clone. The rest will be less difficult to deal with.

And hey, if I fail to have success with this project, no loss.  But I will have gained some knowledge and experience from it. That makes these projects worthwhile and interesting. We do tend to learn from our mistakes....usually.

If I succeed, then it will all be worth it, as I have something unique, and personal that I created.

I am going to re-post the schematic details here from the better quality images. They aren't perfect, but they are better defined than the ones from the carver site. They seem better to me.


This should help anyone needing to clarify something in the circuit.  I will get these up shortly. And for those who still have questions on how this circuit works, please examine the block diagram which sums that operation up very clearly. Just trust me, this device works very well. I will post that block diagram as well.






Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/09/25 at 03:07:27

Alright, here is the very well explained block diagram that shows precisely how the C9 holography circuit works using inter-aural signal cancellation through means of time delay, signal inversion, and EQ tailoring to get the corrected output within your stereo speakers as you should be hearing them.








Here is a better defined image of the CB layout. Detail is a bit more clear.









And here is a better image of the circuit schematic. It is the main circuit only. Power supply not shown.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/09/25 at 03:21:37



Here I am showing you my routing for the point to point connections for just one section pertaining to the IC5 OPAMP. The wiring is not verified 100 percent. It will have to be verified before use.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/09/25 at 03:29:29


This image shows section IC4 OPAMP point to point wiring connections. This is not 100 percent verified. Verification required before use.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/09/25 at 03:54:27


                                             SAY WHAT?


                                                        :o









Sure, let me sell my car. Then I can go pay cash for these....Just a bit overkill!


Hey, Just exactly what power grid are we using here?  I only need a few good watts.



                                                                            ;D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/09/25 at 04:23:26

I am still working on the remainder of the layout. I will post them when finished.


In the meantime, you might find the technology behind Bob's ALS line source speakers interesting. He took the C9 concept and applied it directly into the speaker design itself. He gives a very interesting lecture on how these work.




Here are some images of those speakers. If I could afford them, they would be mine!















Yes, those planar drivers look familiar. Been available at Parts Express for many years. In case you don't know, Bob designed those drivers and gave the rights to HiVi in China exclusively after three years of producing them for the speakers you see here. That was the trade off to keep Bob from paying out $100,000 up front for tooling costs just to get started. They are sold as Dayton Drivers, but made by HiVi.   I have a bunch of these new in the box.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/09/25 at 16:50:54
RPS,

Thank you for posting the much improved schematics and diagrams. I consider them to be essential to working with just about any piece of electronic gear, though my understanding is a bit limited for some of what I am seeing.
It was once said that the purpose of circuitry was mostly used to supply a steady/regulated power supply to the little bit of the circuit that is left to alter/amplify the signal. As you can see here, that is exactly the case. One of my goals was to maintain the best voltage supply by means of using better quality capacitors in the power supply, sometimes faster diodes, more filtering and in some cases a heavier sort of wire instead of a trace. This thinking about heavier duty 'voltage transferers' i.e. wire instead of hair thin circuit traces is arguementable sp? Anyway, it is one of the selling points to me about Decware products to begin with and a few circuit boards out there that go way beyond the usual thickness of the hair like traces usually offered.
ok, so back to it. I will be receiving two C-9 units shorty. One for rebuild and one that I picked up on eBay for a reasonable price. I just have to realize that the price of all things is likely to rise or the product will likely become unavailable.
When I start the first unit for rebuild, photos will accompany the process. Not so much for teaching step by step, but just as an observance of the process. Photos are difficult for my camera to get right when it comes to color. Red for example is dulled out to well, much less than red. Focus can be a challenge too, but I am getting better at it using a tripod. I usually have post notes in the photos to better help determine what the focus is on.

Hopefully, more to come soon. Almost all of the parts are here now.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/10/25 at 19:46:30

Yes, I will vouch for that. These circuit traces are very difficult to confirm accurately in some of the more dense areas where many circuits run closely together.

What I did was section off the areas in groups just large enough to show what I was working on. Then enhance that image in Photoshop, finally increasing the size just a bit to make things less confusing. When I found the better quality schematic download from the UK, this was even better.

One can't be guessing here, as the outcome won't be correct if the wrong traces are interpreted. I have encountered a few that still are extremely difficult to confirm by just examining the board traces on the photo copy. It requires going to the circuit schematic in order to confirm the connection paths. That needs to be done anyway for proper confirmation and clarity. Between the schematic and the component tracing, together, these become a viable source in order to backwards engineer this circuit.

Once that I double inspect the finished circuit by means of the circuit schematic, and I am sure everything is correct, then I will post the final circuit here in full color and clarity in section detail, as well as the complete form. I have done all of the groundwork. I can even supply the entire component list from Mouser to build this circuit, minus the transformer. These parts are premium select parts of tight tolerance specifications. (Vishay, Nichicon, Wima, etc)


Of course, I will have to be the first to actually build and test a C9 clone from THIS schematic that I provide here. The real test is when the unit gets powered on, and see if it works. Only then will I recommend others to DIY this device. If mine works, and one can follow instructions and details correctly, then someone with basic electronic skills should be successful as well. If one can't change a light bulb without a manual, or figure out how to wire a light switch, then I suggest that person avoid doing this project.

I will provide detailed high resolution images of the build when it undergoes progress. Knowing how to solder correctly is a major factor which is critical if this is to be accomplished satisfactorily. Using anti-static protection is suggested, but not as critical as if working on computer circuits, or around highly sensitive components. When you change the laser assembly on a CD player, or install new memory on a motherboard, these components are super sensitive to static electricity, and vulnerable to permanent damage. Anyone that works with electronics understands that and lives by it.  Novice DIY'rs may not realize that, so it is wise to give caution.

So, with that said, if anyone decides to give this project a go, then just be aware of certain factors and make sure that the solder joints are acceptable using a premium silver solder. Of course, flux is a factor which can't be overlooked, as well as clean solder tips and the type of tip used. Good advice is to PRACTICE FIRST if soldering is not a personal skill.  

I didn't learn to weld metal without continued practice and attention to detail. So many factors have to be considered in practice before that will ever happen. Once learned, it is like riding a bike.




One of my goals was to maintain the best voltage supply by means of using better quality capacitors in the power supply, sometimes faster diodes, more filtering and in some cases a heavier sort of wire instead of a trace. This thinking about heavier duty 'voltage transferers' i.e. wire instead of hair thin circuit traces is arguementable sp? Anyway, it is one of the selling points to me about Decware products to begin with and a few circuit boards out there that go way beyond the usual thickness of the hair like traces usually offered.



And that is exactly where the upgrades will count here. All great audio components start with a great power supply. The remainder of the circuit is directly influenced by that factor. That practice is not so well known with standard big box audio components for the average consumer. They are junk anyway, so who cares.  Every single one of the huge Denon surround sound amplifiers that I acquired defective, were a result of power supply failure, all because of some cheap, poorly made power regulators that are prone to fail over a short time. Once higher quality replacements are installed, the unit works like new again. For a few bucks and a few hours of work, this problem is solved. These units were expensive when new. Worthless when the red light of death appears on the face panel. (protection mode)

As it is known, point to point soldering as opposed to a PCB will always perform better, and most likely be less prone to problems down the road.  The shorter the signal path with the least resistance will always be the better choice. PCB's were a result of factory production necessity and cost reduction. They certainly were not devised for the best quality.

Since the gauge of wire, and the composition of the metal always seems to the general difference with sound quality in speaker cables, interconnects, crossover networks, etc., then I am sure this factor must apply to other areas of the circuit as well. That would just be a practical assumption.  As to the resolution of improved sound quality resulting from this upgrade, that remains to be heard. I however believe it is an optimal practice to employ, reasoning that improvement is likely from it.

We all know that different interconnects and speaker cables change the way our systems sound to some degree (usually, more so with high end gear). So that stands to reason as proof that this is a viable expectation for internal circuit wiring. That is why we experiment.

I guess I will find out if I choose to go the point to point method. If so, and it is very likely, I will use premium 18 gauge silver coated copper wire. Of course, high grade RCA jacks, along with the switch quality is just as important, if not the most important.

You brought up the importance of RFI rejection. I believe this is a crucial area which certainly must be dealt with. This unit seems to be a good candidate for it's attention. As you suggested, this should be factored in.

Greg, concerning the capturing of your detailed work on these units, I would see that as very beneficial to others who are considering a rebuild of their own units. This is another means to promote the C9 and bring it back into focus again. Curiosity always stirs up the cats in the neighborhood. Once they see something of interest, they are all over it.

I would like to suggest as a result from my filming days with YouTube 4kUHD videos, lighting is everything! If you have a good quality ring light with a camera mount, that is the way to go.  Up close HQ detail is what makes things crystal clear, as long as the lighting is bright enough, and not glaring.  I would like to see you do just that and post them here as you go along if you feel the desire to do so. This would be great for this thread. I would like to see your work. I am sure others would also.

If Steve would allow you to post HQ videos of this process in his video section, that would be the ultimate. That is if you have the means to create the videos.  People would learn a great deal from this process, and it should ignite more interest in what the C9 will do for the audio experience. I would love to see that. Let alone that it attracts people to the Decware site by simply being posted to the site. That gains more interest in Decware products for which many are not aware of. Pretty sure that is what fueled the business growth from the start. That and word of mouth.  Exposure to great things bring great experiences. Word of mouth is everything.

Otherwise, if you want to keep things simple with HQ images, that is fine too, and will be very helpful. I look forward to seeing your work. The lighting will make all the difference in the outcome. I just love those grainy images that people post due to poor lighting! With the general quality of camera's today, there is no excuse for poor image quality, at least not from the camera.

BTW: I just got my second C9 delivered from New Mexico. You should see how professional that Ebay seller packaged this. It is rare that people take the time to package something like this so well. Very professional, and as good as it could be.  I will make sure that the seller gets a great review from this purchase.  Haven't removed the bubble wrap yet, but it looks to be in very good shape.  After testing, I will report back on the performance.


[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/29/25 at 03:00:03

Here is another piece of the puzzle. This is the wiring detail for section IC1 only. Again, not 100 percent verified.








Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/29/25 at 07:01:39

Okay, been awhile since I posted anything. I am going to lay out a roadmap here for where I want to go with this thread in the near future.

Keep in mind that this thread is all about my extended journey forward with this room and what changes I do from this point forward to generate an even better listening experience. The acoustic portion is pretty much set in place with some future considerations later on. For now, the focus is upon equipment upgrades and adjustments within the room.

I want to focus upon actual music evaluations in the short term of things as I proceed with this process. These individual evaluations of the music will be repeated as changes take place to give a perspective upon the perceived outcome.

One of the major projects underway is that of upgrading and tuning two different DAC projects which utilize completely different circuit schemes. The current DAC within my system now will be used stock with the high performance well respected OPA627 Bur Brown OPAMPS.  This design allows for quick change of the OPAMP for comparison. Just like tube rolling, it works the same way, and I believe the changes are going to be quite dramatic and quite noticeable at many different levels. This particular DAC is the current upgrade version of the ZERO  DAC with a vast implementation of audiophile grade components and modifications which make it far superior to the earlier model which came out many years ago. That original version had some issues that needed to be upgraded which led to premature failure of the unit due to overheating. That is no longer the case with the new version.

This DAC has the sound quality of a much more expensive DAC, so much that it seems impossible. The circuit layout is super clean and well thought out. Very careful implementation of high frequency filtering is used throughout. A very robust power supply using a toroid transformer is used which shows why this unit very well should have the sound quality of much more expensive DACS. The fact that it uses a Bur Brown OPA627 in the output stage should make it clear enough as to the degree of sound quality the designer wanted to achieve. The original version of the ZERO DAC had gained a lot of attention in the audio community over the long run of it's life going back many years. The unit is no longer available unfortunately. I believe the designer opted to move on to a newer design. I would challenge any contender with units costing 3 to 5 times more in a blind A/B test just to see how much of a difference there really is between those units.

I previously owned a high end ARCAM Alpha 9 with the expensive RING DAC.  I loved the smooth well behaved sound of that unit, and rightfully so. I had no choice but to sell it years ago. I wish I still had it, but times change and we must roll with the changes.

With that said, I will compare from memory, the performance of the ARCAM still in my mind, to that of the ZERO DAC I have today.  That is a very big challenge to say the least considering that the ZERO is a budget DAC compared to a CD player that cost at least ten times as much! There is a reason why ARCAM and Cambridge Audio hold such prestigious titles. Anyone that has owned them knows that. Sure, there are esoteric DACS and players which are far more expensive than the ARCAM or Cambridge. But do you think the performance gained for the dollar spent really added up for which one would expect after spending that much money? Well, that is subjective to the listener, and as we all know, we like to believe that we got our money's worth. If we believe something is better just because it costs more, than surely, that is exactly how one will perceive the quality factor.  It gets pretty embarrassing when it comes down to blind A/B testing. That is where the subjective factor takes a back seat to reality. Considering that some of these machines cost upwards of $100 grand, I would not want to be the owner who swears that a $10,000 unit is his, and in reality, he owns the unit that costs ten times that much.  

If I have to strain to hear limited micro details which are a result of limited return on investment after a certain level of cost, then I at that point know it is time to just be satisfied and call it done.

So of course there are many models which very well should sound superior to the ZERO design. However, this design provides a very substantial degree of quality for such a ridiculous low price. Consider the fact that this unit comes from China. If this same unit was manufactured in the states, the cost would be at least a 700 percent increase in retail price. I got mine direct, custom built from the designer. He utilized a well thought out design using audiophile grade parts to make it the best it could be for that price point. And that says a great deal. That could have never been achieved in the states.

In stock form using the Toslink from the transport, I have found this unit to be very pleasing and almost as enjoyable as the ARCAM ring DAC. Not quite that good, but not that far off either. This unit over time has actually improved in almost every way within its respectively accurate portrayal of the music. There are a few areas which I know from experience are a bit lackluster, but not to the degree of where someone would take notice of it other than critical listening. With some tweaks in the right places, that can easily be corrected with a few upgrades.

When I bought this unit, I was not expecting much. I just needed something to get by with until I could get the unit I really wanted.  Well here is the surprising fact, I am still using it because it sounds way too damn good to replace it for no reason other than just small details and characteristics which are possible with a much more esoteric design. Now of course, I am limiting this comparison to that of OPAMP output stage designs. When we get into well built vacuum tube designs with super exotic parts all throughout the circuit, then that becomes a whole new world of classification. This unit could not even begin to compete on that level. Modifications can go a very long way to closing that gap without spending a fortune.


So, if I ever win the lotto or get lucky and find a huge wad of cash, then perhaps I will opt for that which is way out of my budget to spend on toys. Here on earth with sanity in check, I will focus upon a respectable degree of performance standard for the money invested.

The plan is to use my ZERO DAC as a baseline for comparison. There is one huge mod that I am going to make that will take this unit to at least three or four levels higher. That is a simple low cost mod that I will reveal later on when that time comes. I am looking forward to that evaluation. I am very pleased with what I hear now. I can just imagine to what degree this upgrade is going to elevate my perception of music compared to stock. It has nothing to do with capacitors or cables.

The project I have in the works now is in the beginning stages of a new DAC build which allows the ability to switch from the OPAMP output stage of the DAC for direct listening discreetly from that chip as one option. The second option is that the signal gets bypassed and routed out directly to a vacuum tube output stage which uses a single 6922 tube for each channel. This circuit is almost a direct clone of the Musical Fidelity X10D tube buffer circuit which has independent left and right channels. With a jumper on the back of the circuit board, I can easily convert this circuit to use 12AU7 tubes. It is currently configured for use with ECC88 variants such as the 6922 or 6DJ8. The designer says that he favors the ECC88 version with 3.3 uf Audio-Note copper in oil capacitors. For what those esoteric jewels cost, there better be some major improvement! His second recommendation for the best sound is to upgrade using Jensen paper in oil caps. Again, very expensive! I was leaning toward Mundorf Supreme EVO silver/gold in oil capacitors as they are at the far end of what I will consider paying for quality caps. He advised me not to use them for this as he did not like them nearly as much as the Audio-Note caps.

This particular project is based upon the Lampucera design which the well know DAC designer Lukasz Fikus created with exhausting modifications and upgrades that he employed until it became the best it could be. That design was utilized by a builder in China who cloned the Lampucera DAC with the same audiophile grade components that Fikus used, but for a price that places it well within low budget territory. Don't let that fool you. This design will compete with the best of DAC units out there. It is what completes the circuit outside of the DAC card which determines it's credibility. This design has been around the audio community for many years. There have been some very impressive esoteric designs built around the Lampucera DAC design which is like the beating heart that pumps the life blood throughout the system. If you know the history of Fikus and what he has accomplished in the digital realm, then you already know what to expect. This design utilizes premium Cirrus Logic components. This is based around a 24 bit D/A converter (CS4397), and a 192 kHz interface receiver (CS8416). Jitter is extremely low and absolutely stable. A very critical factor if the DAC is ever going to be worth a damn. The OPAMP used in the output stage is nothing special however. (NE5532 from Texas Instruments)This alone is where a major upgrade will be necessary to make this DAC a real contender.  I have the perfect upgrade for that. That will be revealed later. Just lift out the existing chip, pop in the new one, and presto, it is off to the races. What I am upgrading that OPAMP to is like going from a normally aspirated engine to a supercharged version. This is where the largest gain will come from.  And that is just for the DAC portion with the OPAMP output stage.

We have not even considered the tube stage yet. Upgrading the capacitors will then be the next focus. After that, upgrades and mods will have much lower impact, but still be substantial if done properly. There are several diodes throughout which will benefit from upgrading to Vishay high speed versions. The resistors would be last to upgrade for the finishing touch. I will be using Electro Harmonix 6922EH tubes, as I love the way they sound. That is what I use in my ToriMk3 and could not be more pleased. The power supply uses toroid transformers for the best sound quality.

 So that is where I will have to make a compromise, and just use the best that my budget will allow.  I have my reservations about capacitors costing hundreds of dollars apiece. Sorry, that is where sanity took a left turn and wandered off. The degree of return is nowhere near what it cost. That tiny bit of extension will not be missed. A good quality tight tolerance capacitor does not have to be expensive to sound good.

Let's just say that some wealthy people like driving a Porsche, some like BMW, others prefer a Mercedes, and then there is the Lamborghini. Now that realm is not much different in the way esoteric toys become ridiculously overpriced much in the same way capacitors or vacuum tubes are overpriced. It just comes down to who can afford them. It is all about status and bragging rights.

Let me take a late model SRT Challenger with a supercharged Hemi, and lets see just how superior those exotic super cars are against the radical 1300 HP I have on tap to go up against them in a challenge. I expect that when it comes to handling, they will have the advantage. When it comes to all out racing, I think they will be feeling a bit depressed knowing that this Dodge just humiliated a competitor valued upwards of three times over the car unworthy of their obscured standard. The SRT isn't exactly budget friendly, but it sure does have one hell of a lot to give for what it cost. That car is extremely dangerous in the wrong hands. Do not EVER let junior take this bad MF'r out, or you will regret the outcome.

The work will continue on the C9 clone as time allows. Right now I have two units that work perfectly. The unit that I recently received from New Mexico looks like it just came out of the factory new. No filth, no sign of wear, no scratches, nothing....just absolutely pristine!  I have the newer unit in my system now. I swear that it sounds even better than the other C9 I bought first.  Just some deoxit treatment and it was ready for service. The sound quality meets my greatest expectations for what can be expected of the C9. Both of these units were an excellent purchase. Now I call that a major return on investment.

I will return and continue this later with many images and more information. It will be at least a month before I can order the upgrade parts due to other priorities.

The order waiting list is starting to move fast now, so it is just a matter of time before I have to pay for the Zrock3 which I am now 30 units away from being built. I ordered that unit with the upgrades, so that pretty much wipes out my audio budget for February.

My birthday is next month. That will make a nice gift for myself. When I get the Zrock3, and after it has had time to burn in, it will become a major part of these evaluations as I compare different variations within the system. Hey, I may not even get the unit next month, but I am thinking there is a very good chance. It will be interesting to see just how that unit actually fits in with all of this. I shall find out soon enough. For what it costs, it better be worth it.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/29/25 at 18:22:43
I find this extreme case of DAC supremacy to be very enlightening as to what is possible in the digital realm where "analog" sound is the top priority, breaking free of digital boundaries. This is a design worth every penny it demands. If possible, I would own this model in a heartbeat. This is one of Lukasz Fikus great designs (Lampizator). I consider his passion towards building the best DAC's on Earth to be along the same lines as what Steve does here at Decware with building some of the world's finest amplifiers.

I have to believe that combining the finest amplifier from Decware, coupled to the DAC you see here from Fikus, would be the ultimate in audio truth if the digital format is your priority. In today's world of digital streaming, this is pretty much the standard format, one that will be around for a very long time.

Mr. Fikus and his Lampizator series have been around for many years with great popularity among the audio community. He has modified and upgraded many if not most of the DAC models produced over many years. In the DIY community, he has provided free and open schematics and details for many of his designs for others to implement. Of course, his passion is dedicated to vacuum tube implementation of the circuits. Not merely to just modify, but to completely design fresh designs based upon the analog sound which only a quality tube output stage will create with the greatest chance of sounding the way audio should be revealed.

The Lampucera DAC project that I am focused upon is a result of his work based upon comparative testing with a pre-existing DAC circuit which was provided as a evaluation board from Hong Kong. Where he went with this board resulted into one of the greatest potential sounding DACS he had heard up to that point. Remember, this guy has modified and improved many of the best DAC's ever built using the best chip-sets and his own tube based topology.

If you would like to see his work on creating this DAC design, you can view it at this link. This will give you a better understanding of this project which my DAC is based upon that work.

lampizator.eu/lampizator/    lampucera/cd%20dac%20lampucera%20lampizator.html

*just copy and paste this link, and remove the gap between it to make it active.

So this is an image of the current high end Lampizator which is available from dealers commercially. This is like the "Lamborghini" of DAC's!  This is the (HORIZON) model.








If this DAC interests you, here is a very interesting video link with Mr. Fikus explaining the design, and his philosophy towards DAC technology improved with vacuum tubes.


youtube.com    /watch?v=5D_xJztHWVA&t=482s






And here is the review of the Horizon DAC.


youtube.com    /watch?v=7Y0C-Z6GJmQ



*remember to squeeze the links together to make them active.


For me, I can only dream of owning something this special.

As an alternative, this drives my desire to build a sensible DAC design which can compete with some of the best units out there, yet remain affordable. What is most important is to find the point where a satisfactory solution can be acquired within reasonable financial means. The approach I am taking here is what I feel is going to meet that requirement.  Of course, this is another lesson in audio discovery for me. So at the very least, valuable knowledge is gained and that is priceless. The end result of this project will be clear once the evaluations come into play. Perhaps I will be dissapointed. On the other hand, perhaps I will be estatic with the results. I will remain positive about this and just focus upon the creation of something that far exceeds any other DAC I've listened to in the past. If it can surpass the ARCAM Ring-DAC, then I think I will have achieved success.  You know what, something tells me that this is going to happen. Time will tell the truth as it is revealed.





[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 01/29/25 at 18:55:38
Ok, so I looked at your difficult to read (blue on black?) diagram, and think that R125, R126 may be jumpers. They are just to the right of R58 on the C-9 parts locator. I can't say at the moment since I do not have a C-9 in stock to verify. Sounds like you do and that would be the best way to verify their values.
Further down the line in the parts list are R45 and R105 which are written to be 2k. That is not correct. They are 1% 3.3k resistors. Thought that I might point that out before you get that far.
What you are doing is an intense job. At least, it would be for me.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/29/25 at 21:17:54

Moving on, I will begin showing you the foundation of my DAC plus tube output stage which is in the initial stage of design.

The components I have are already plug-and-play ready. The current form is very basic and requires extensive upgrades to place it in a class where I want it to go.  So there you have my objective.

This kit assembly comes direct from China. This is a highly modified version of the original evaluation board. This comes complete already upgraded in compliance with the mods Lukasz Fikus created.

It comes with premium audiophile grade parts where the Sanyo OSCON capacitors were proven to be far and above all other caps evaluated in this circuit. He did back to back comparisons with the top favored choice of caps used in digital design.

Please view the web page for this extensive process, for which I provided the link in the above post. This goes into extensive detail as to what was tested, and how each different capacitor sounded with this DAC circuit. This helps to inform a better impression as to why this DAC kit is an extremely good platform which to build upon.  


lampizator.eu/lampizator   /lampucera/cd%20dac%20lampucera%20lampizator.html



Upon inspection, you will see that high quality parts such as OSCON caps, Elna Silmic II caps, Nichicon MUSE caps, etc...have been used throughout where the placement made the most difference in quality.

The DAC chip-set is based upon the top rated chip-sets available. This being the Cirrus Logic CS4397 24 bitD/A converter. Extremely LOW jitter is a major asset here. This is the beginning stage of a great DAC design with unlimited potential. This is coupled to the Cirrus Logic CS8416 192 kHz digital interface receiver, again focused on extremely low jitter levels for an "analog" level of stable output.

The fact of the matter is this, it all starts with the quality of the transport, and the stability of the clock, if the signals being passed are ever going to be worth anything substantial. A great CD player always starts with this factor as an essential implementation to end quality.  Nothing will ever matter what is done outside of this factor if anything of lesser stability is used. It simply would be pointless, as no modifications would ever change this downstream. Why would one bother with anything less? Just wouldn't make sense.

Now where the chip-set offered here becomes lackluster is due to the standard run of the mill choice in OPAMPS for the output stage. This DAC card is shipped with the Texas Instruments NE5532 OPAMP. It is okay for most applications, but for serious audio, it needs to be upgraded.  Luckily, this chip easily lifts out of its cradle for quick change just as one would roll a tube.  I already know exactly what I am replacing this chip with, and that will place this DAC into the category of high end DAC's, at least from the perspective of the digital conversion stage.  The power supply among other areas are vital as to how great this DAC will really perform.





Of course, as you see, the separate power supply board is included with this kit. It is not bad, but it too will require some upgrades to put it in a higher quality class. For the price of this kit, considering what you get here, along with a transformer(substandard), this is an extreme bargain for something that can be used for building something of high potential.

If they only supplied just the DAC board itself, this would have been a steal to say the least. No matter what it cost, this DAC design is a superb choice to start with. Most of the upgrades have already been done on this. It really is a solid base which needs no further mods to make it better, other than the OPAMP upgrade.

Standard OPAMPS for this use have run their course. With new technology, making the move to discrete HDAM modules are the new standard in DAC superiority. This literally is like supercharging the circuit. It is the single most advanced improvement one can make to a DAC. By far, this upgrade is what makes mediocre designs start performing like much more expensive models.

I will be doing back to back evaluations of this DAC by comparing the new Burson V7 Vivid HDAM which is a dual channel design compatible as a replacement to the stock NE5332. I also intend to compare this with the highly regarded Sparkos Labs discreet HDAM.

These are regarded as the best available and run neck to neck in performance evaluations. These operate in class A mode taking advantage of the much better current output design rather than the typical voltage out design. They do run hot just as a class A amplifier would as they do idle with high power consumption. We know that class A amplifiers are the standard of quality. So it stands to reason why this design makes sense.

The Burson models require heat-sinks (included-built in) to keep things cool enough inside. No different than protecting a CPU with thermal paste and a good quality heat sink and fan to keep things from melting. This does not get that hot, but you get the picture.

There are many offerings of HDAMS available, some pretty cheap direct from China. But I think it is vital here to stick with a proven winner and go with the models mentioned above. The Australian based Burson V7 is pricey, but you get what you pay for, and then some.

The Burson V7 Vivid showed in comparison tests to outperform the NE5532 by a huge margin of more than TWICE + in superiority!  So obviously, this is the natural choice for upgrading my DAC. If your objective is to output the signal directly to an outboard tube stage, then this chip is simply bypassed and removed. If you want to use the OPAMP output stage, then this upgrade is something that should not be overlooked.

I will be able to switch in and out between the OPAMP stage and the tube stage, depending on which output I want to use. There may be music titles that simply sound better with the OPAMP stage. Others will be preferred with the sound of tubes. This provides flexibility and choice for the listener. You CAN have your cake and eat it too!






Here you see the OPAMP module which currently has the stock NE5532 chip installed.







Next I will show you the bottom side of this DAC card and also the power supply detail.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/29/25 at 21:41:11


Further down the line in the parts list are R45 and R105 which are written to be 2k. That is not correct. They are 1% 3.3k resistors. Thought that I might point that out before you get that far.
What you are doing is an intense job. At least, it would be for me.



Greg, thank you for the reply.

This is why I made a disclaimer stating the final revision is pending verification.  This is why it is always a good idea to have another set of eyes examine something such as this to catch any errors. I will look into your correction and make that change if I find this to be so. Yes, you are correct in saying that the only way to be sure is by direct examination of the board circuit itself with an actual unit.

This is why I bought a second unit for this very reason, and as a back up. Funny thing is, the newest unit is in better shape (like new), and the serial number indicates it was built much farther down the line. It actually seems to sound better than the one I bought first.

So the new unit is in my system now...sounding fantastic to say the least! The other unit will be used for backwards engineering and will be the first for a rebuild with upgrades.

I absolutely DO appreciate that you took the time to point this out to me. Yes, it is going to take some time, but I am in no rush. Better to be safe than sorry. I am pretty sure that you are every bit as capable as I am, maybe even more.  I like a good challenge. Nothing provides more satisfaction than tackling a difficult job and mastering it. Good things simply do not come easily.

I am making this more difficult with my project since this circuit will be integrated along with my new DAC circuit within the same chassis.

I am glad that I kept one of my big custom cases which I built out of heavy aircraft aluminum. The one I have is going to be ideal. The interior room will allow for double stacking the boards with plenty of clearance. I need to isolate the power supplies / transformers at the bottom with metal dividers to keep the DAC circuitry from picking up interference. I have a tube stage to install within this chassis, so it really does need to have luxury space inside.

Again, thanks for letting me know.  Eventually I will make that correction and re-post the revision once it is verified.




[smiley=dankk2.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 01/30/25 at 00:51:59
RPS, nice link to the DAC kit and write up. Very interesting. Almost pulled the trigger on the DAC with tube output. But, at the latest count there are 12 projects waiting for my attention in the new tech shop. One is replacing caps in the Stoke DAC after 25 year service and another populating a Zkit3 board. Parts should be here by the weekend - so will have to wait and see. Just don't want to get too far ahead of myself. Been there and don't want to return.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/30/25 at 01:49:49


This is the underside of the DAC board.







The connector you see on the bottom is the direct cable feed to the tube output stage.


Here you see the included power supply which came with a 110v 12 0 12v transformer.

It did come with high quality Nichicon capacitors installed in the power supply.






The last important upgrade for the DAC board concerns the capacitor for the Toslink output. The one installed on the board is insufficient, leading to poor signal output. Once the larger LOW ESR capacitor is installed, the Toslink output will be of high quality sound transfer. The modification calls for a 2200uf low ESR 6.3v capacitor.









I talked about the OPAMP upgrade to the far superior HDAM replacement.

These are images of the Australian based Burson V7 Vivid.



This is the internal view of the V Vivid module with the heat sink pulled back. This device runs hot due to being run in class A (current) output rather than voltage output. The included heat sink keeps things cool.








Burson also offers another version of the V7 called (Classic). This gives a more laid back presentation more like a vinyl sound.

The Vivid is more dynamic with tighter bass and greater slam. The Vivid model is more popular. It is my choice as well.

Here is the V7Classic.








Shown are the dual channel versions. Single channel types are offered as well. It depends on the design of your current OPAMP as to which type that you need. My current ZERO DAC requires a single channel design, while the project DAC requires a dual channel type.



This image shows the unit as it gets installed in my DAC board. Simply remove the old OPAMP, and install the new HDAM in it's place.







If you would like to watch the review on the Burson V7 Vivid, the link is shown below. With good headphones, even on the computer, you can hear the difference. Just imagine how much that difference will be on a high end DAC in your system.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/30/25 at 02:35:43

RPS, nice link to the DAC kit and write up. Very interesting. Almost pulled the trigger on the DAC with tube output.


Thanks JB. Hope you are doing well with all that work you have. Sounds like you are gaining ground with it. It will be nice once it is all done.

I don't want to tempt you with another project.  If I give a glowing review on this kit after all is said and done, you just may not be able to help yourself.

This is the same guy that worked with Mr. Fikus who did all the work modifying the DAC board to the current configuration. The seller's name is Lawrence. He provides great communication for this DAC kit and will help you if needed. He also sells his own version of the HDRAM which is very reasonably priced. He says that it takes the quality level of this kit to the stratosphere by comparison. He gave me good advice as to what upgrades make the most difference, and the order of importance.  He will treat you right.  It takes about ten days to get the product from China. It comes packed very well and it looks great.

Just in case you do decide to get out that credit card, here is the link for the seller Lawrence. When you see the price, you won't believe it!

This kit comes in two options. Option one: just the DAC board and the power supply. Transformer is included as are cables.

Option two: The above DAC + PS, and the tube output stage complete with tubes and another transformer for the tube supply.

If you don't want the tube output, then just get the base kit.

The last option is to buy only the tube output stage board by itself if you don't need the DAC stage.


You can get his single or double HDAM that he recommends on Ebay at this link: www.ebay .com/itm/186398850424


For his dual channel version:

Dual channels HDAM- High Definition Analog Module -Audio Discrete Opamp Module


US $50.00


hkaudio1

 

GO TO EBAY: These products are all in his store.


For the Lampucera DAC kit basic without tube stage: *@ Ebay: JUST CLICK ONTO HIS STOREFRONT AND IT WILL TAKE YOU TO ALL OF HIS PRODUCTS.  The seller is hkaudio1


24bit/192KHz DAC DIY KIT ,FULL ASSEMBLED KIT- Lampucera1.0, CS8416 + CS4397
$85.00
+ $30.00 shipping
Est. delivery Fri, Feb 14 - Sat, Mar 1

For the kit plus the tube stage:

24bit/192KHz TUBE DAC DIY KIT - Lampucera1.0 + Lampizator CS8416 + CS4397
$150.00
+ $45.00 shipping
Est. delivery Fri, Feb 14 - Sat, Mar 1


For the tube stage board only:

Tube Buffer - 6N11J x 2pcs with Toroidal transformer
$85.00
+ $40.00 shipping
Est. delivery Fri, Feb 14 - Sat, Mar 1

*THIS BOARD IS CONFIGURED FOR ECC88 TUBES (6922).  It can be jumpered on the back for use with 12AU7 tubes if desired.

How's that for a bargain!



:D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 01/30/25 at 05:36:47
Here we start examining the ECC88 tube output stage that comes with the Lampucera kit.




This kit comes as shown here. They include Chinese 6N11 tubes, but they need to be upgraded. The equivalent is the 6922 or 6DJ8 which I would highly recommend.  You will find that Electro-Harmonix 6922EH tubes sound fantastic, so should be a great upgrade here. The 3.3 Capacitors installed are from Solen. Not that good and will definitely benefit from some high quality foil in oil based caps.

This board has the provision of using a jumper on the rear of the board to use 12AU7 tubes. If you do that, the values for the Capacitors must be changed to a 2.2uf rating. The 3.3uf caps are for use with ECC88 tubes.

Here is the back side of the tube output stage board.













Here I have marked the six Capacitors that will make a dramatic improvement by upgrading to high quality foil in oil caps. If you can afford these from AudioNote, that is your best choice. For a sane budget, you will need to consider something a bit less expensive, yet still a major improvement to the  installed WIMA caps they will replace. The WIMA's are far better than using electrolytic, but not nearly as good as some audiophile grade copper in oil caps.

You need: two 3.3uf Capacitors + four 0.22uf capacitors where the WIMA's are placed. I suggest bypassing each cap with a 0.1 cap of the same grade and type for high frequency balance.





My plan was to use Mundorf Supreme EVO silver gold/oil caps all around. I was informed by the designer that these don't sound nearly as good as the AudioNotes on this board.

The AudioNotes are out of my budget range. I have selected a few high quality types that I can afford and are a good suggestion to consider.  I shall show them here.


These are the new AuriCapsXO which are vastly improved. They are considered to be of high favor and they are made in the USA.







These are another choice to consider.






If you are on a tight budget, yet still not willing to compromise too much performance, then this is most likely the best bang for your buck to meet your needs. These are highly respected caps. (just an image for representation. The image shown is for their bypass line for high energy spikes called snubbers)  Just don't rule out the quality of Cornel-Dublier capacitors.



Now just to scare you ( for all you rich guys with deep pockets, these are for you):

These are super exotic audiophile caps made in Poland and sold through AliExpress in China. The price you see is for one 0.22uf cap. Wait until you see the price for a 3.3uf cap. These are among the highest regarded caps in audio circles today. You might need to apply for credit on these.



:o

Now, speaking of Chinese capacitors direct from AliExpress, here are some worth considering that won't break the bank. I have a strong urge to order some and try them out. Very affordable with nice features.









This one caught my attention for the price. Not bad considering that it is a copper oil based cap in the 3.3uf range. That is cheap for a cap like this. It is tempting to try them out. They are said to be imported from Germany??




This is the power supply that comes installed on the board.






As you can see, this could benefit from upgrading the diodes to Vishay high speed types. The Caps are good grade. They included a transformer for this board. It needs to be upgraded to a toroid transformer design for much better performance.

The output capacitors in the power supply are KZH types. The KZH series have super low ESR and impedance performances as it uses low resistance electrolytes. So they should be fine as is.


Here is the design schematic which is cloned here based upon the Musical Fidelity X10 tube buffer (one channel)





Just wanted to share this image of a forum member on another audio site who built this DAC using the Lampucera kit. He did a very nice job within this well built chassis.






You can see that he used the Mundorf Capacitors all the way around. He had to mount the big caps underneath and to the sides of the board due to size. But that is how it's done. The choice of capacitors here are going to make all the difference to the signature.

I like what he did here.


Alright, that is enough for now. I shall return with more on this later.



[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 01/30/25 at 10:22:04

Quote:
I don't want to tempt you with another project.  If I give a glowing review on this kit after all is said and done, you just may not be able to help yourself.


Ha! Actually the Stoke DAC was completed January of 2003, so 21 years of service. Seems my whole journey began the turn of the century leaving me believing that every part is 25 years of age! I remember meeting up with Sheldon Stokes along with Dave Elledge in Albuquerque on my first cross country trip back in 2004. Those two were definitely deep into the engineering aspect of audio. Way above my pay grade at the time.

Sheldon's DAC has kept up with all the upgrades in the Charoit over the 21 years. It still beats the ZDAK(which seems a bit cold in comparison). It has become noisy lately. After adding the Subway and Mainstream it became apparent that the Stoke needed some work. The plan is to line the Corian case with copper tape and replace the caps, let it break in, and see how it goes from there.

By Saturday there should be enough parts here to finish 6 of the projects on the shelfs.


But its going to be in the 50s tomorrow so I may start in the wood shop with building a couple diffusers. Choices, choices keep me on my toes! [smiley=tunes29.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/01/25 at 18:06:23

JB,


Must of been an interesting conversation with Sheldon Stokes. I remember that DAC diy project caught my attention back around that time. I never had the time to do anything like that until recently.  I am curious as to how it sounds. With a fresh recap and some break-in time, this should be optimum. It will of course depend on your choice of caps as to what voicing the signature will end up being. From all of the countless reviews for capacitor evaluations based upon the best sounding capacitors for the price, what I am seeing a huge pattern here is that the Jantsen Superior Z Caps are the most favored, and by a huge margin.

I like that I can get these from Parts Express here locally at a very reasonable price. Delivery next morning, or just a 35 minute drive to go pick up.

I have decided to use the Jantsen Superior Z caps in my DAC project. Superb performance without that insane price tag such as the overpriced, OVER-HYPED Boutique caps desired by those with way too much disposable money.  I really want to do a A/B test with those caps costing ten times as much, just to hear the outcome. Talk is cheap, PROOF in real time is the confirmation! A controlled environment, the same room, the same equipment, the same music track....and the answer will be clear and final. Could get really embarrassing for the elite class. Good caps are important, but there is a limit as to how far they really go over another, once a certain level of quality is attained.

I find it humorous that the guys who think they have to spend a couple of grand on "THE BEST" caps out there, based upon how much they cost, are the same guys who most likely have lost the upper registers in their hearing anyway.  Just how much of a difference can a guy over 50 really hear above 10 kHz anyway?  Before one answers that, do a quick listening test with high quality headsets using a frequency sweep generator. If you can actually hear these frequencies above 13 kHz, then it might be worth buying these super expensive exotic capacitors. If not, then who are you fooling other than yourself?  That is a cold hard fact of reality. But hey, I'm sure your kids will notice the difference. The older a man gets, the more degraded his hearing. There are much better methods in audio capable of MUCH more noticeable impact upon the quality of music. And that is where the difference counts for older men like us, with what nature has left instilled within our limited ability to hear the upper range. You would be surprised as to how many people have hearing deficiencies within the critical mid-range, especially where the female voice is centered. That is why a professional audio-gram is the only way to know just how intact our hearing really is. No expensive capacitor in the world is going to overcome that!


[smiley=icqlite27.png]


Only then can we actually, and accurately, judge an audio component fairly. There has to be an even balance to be sensible.


Anyway, glad to see that your room update is coming along nicely, and your projects are getting the attention needed. That shop area looks great. Very professional.

Which diffusers are you planning to build?

I know guys half your age that don't have your energy and determination!  Keep up the good work.


[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/02/25 at 00:24:39
I am gearing up to start doing some preliminary evaluations. There have been a few major changes within the system. The room acoustics are unchanged at this time. These changes are mostly within the audio components.

I want the set-up to be as good as I can get it for now before I make any future upgrades or introduce any more components within the signal chain.

I believe within the next two months, I should be including the new Zrock3 within these evaluations. Other future upgrades include a highly modified project DAC that allows both OPAMP output stage listening (with chip rolling), or an optional tube output stage using a single 6922 tube per channel.

Later this year, I intend to build a new set of speakers based upon the very old Jensen ultra-flex designs for the Tang Band W8-1808 full range drivers that I am now using in my custom Q-force designs. These are Tapered Quarter Wave designs with rear bass enhancement.

The main speakers are going to be modified to my specifications as a major improvement in three dimensional sound staging. I have a custom design in mind that I want to implement within this old design. It will be much more complex than the original. Simply using the original platform as a starting point.

The mains are separate from the dual bass Jensen ultra-flex enclosures which are driven by 15 inch Eminence subs. The subs can be positioned anywhere within the room to find the best bass response. The mains must be positioned towards the front center, but away from the wall a bit. This allows custom tailoring of the frequencies much like using an EQ, only with much better results and sound quality.

I just upgraded these speakers yesterday with the W8-1808 drivers, removing the crossover networks to run these wide open in full range mode. The best crossover network is NO network. Can't get more transparent than that. This way, the restrictions or changes created by capacitors and inductors are completely removed from the evaluation so that they don't get into the way.

The W8-1808 drivers are already broken in with a great deal of burn time. I have had these for years and they have been sitting idle in another set of speakers. It is time to put them to the test.

I listened to this upgrade mod last night. The results were very favorable and quite a bit different than before. Not that anything is better or worse, but that the sonic signature is definitely two separate points between the two. The W8-1808 drivers are very sensitive. I use even less amplifier power than before and the dynamic range is simply stunning. (on a scale of 1 to 10 on the volume dial, this would be about 2.5)

 I took out the tame cats, and replaced them with wild beasts! I'm sure that running them free range without crossovers plays a big part of that change. Absolutely zero components to color or mask the sound. With the new copper foil speaker cables, the definition and clarity is like breaking the damn window which was thought to be clean. There is absolute transparency now. The crisp attack and decay of cymbals are so realistic, the extension goes way beyond and clearer than before. I thought I had lost much of my hearing and didn't question that because of my age.

I just let reason assume that I would never hear this level of high frequency detail again. To my surprise which I am so grateful for, this is not the case. The damn crossover networks were masking much of this delicate detail. This is exactly why open baffle speakers using full range drivers without crossovers are favored so much by audiophiles. They don't stand in the way of musical truth.

That is why I stated that expensive capacitors are not the first thing to spend huge amounts of money on. Concentrate on the quality of drivers first, then make sure you build a platform around them to extract every bit of detail and quality possible.  Full range drivers don't need crossovers anyway, so that should not even be part of the equation. The only thing I would ever consider is an impedance stabilization circuit, and that is about it. It doesn't take a grand worth of parts to make that happen without masking or tainting the sound quality.

So far, I have not heard any reason to do so within this new set of drivers. These are sharper and much more revealing, so the upper end naturally sounds louder than before. Of course, there is a rise in response above 13 kHz compared to what I had before. Previously, the speakers were almost perfectly flat in response from 120 Hz up way past 20kHz. And that was at a 92 dB center point. Fluctuations remained stable within 3 db across the spectrum within that range (not accounting for the room's frequency response). So it stands to reason why the high frequency detail is much more open and revealing. The copper foil cables had a lot to do with this improved sound quality.

And as for sound stage and holography, absolutely it is immediately apparent from the second the music starts that this is a substantial improvement as well. I am really finding out just how pure and clean the ToriMK3 really is. At this point, the sound quality of this amp (well burned in), with the Mullard reissue El34's and Electro-Harmonix tubes otherwise, proves to be the ultimate arrangement.

Everything sounds so well balanced and natural. I just can't find fault with it so far. I am going up for another listening session tonight. I have much more music to evaluate to see where these speakers are going for me. So far, I am very pleased. Actually, I am a bit shocked at what is being revealed.

Do yourself a favor and get a set of these Mullard reissues from New Sensor. They bought the rights to the Mullard tubes, and have them made in Russia. If you don't like them in the Tori amps, then your problem is not with the power tubes! These are the most liquid and dynamic based  across the frequency spectrum that I have heard to date. And they are reasonably priced. This is the most hours I have ever extracted out of a set of power tubes yet, and they have yet to sound anything less than spectacular with my amp. Yes, they have been cryo'd whether you think that makes a difference or not.

I will get back to this later. I will disclose everything in the signal path when each evaluation is completed.

This will be coming soon.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 02/02/25 at 12:25:13

Quote:
Must of been an interesting conversation with Sheldon Stokes.


Double Ha! I felt like a 5th wheel with a deuce of couples dating(maybe closer to a third wheel!). Dave wanted me to meet the designer of my completed DAC so we had lunch together. Dave and Sheldon are great guys. Dave invited Karen and I for dinner at his place later. It was different at his place, just when those two got together and started engineering talk, I had nothing to add.

[smiley=icqlite27.png] I don't exactly see it the same as an elderly audiopile. If the full range of audio and beyond is intact it can and does have a hearable impact on use old geezers!

For now, I plan on building 4X4 P13 for side reflections. I still want to build the binaries for above my sweet spot. That will be the finishing touch before a 25th SE84 makes it to the front door sometime early next year or maybe sooner the way amps are flying out of Peoria :)  

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/02/25 at 20:17:32

Yes, I have to agree with you concerning the overall perception of music as we age. The majority of what we need to hear is primarily within the midrange anyway, as that is the most critical area. As long as we can hear well in that range, then everything still remains acceptably balanced. I do miss the way my hearing was when I was in my twenties.  I think I had super hearing back then...just joking.  Compared to today, that may be true.

I used to say that I could hear mouse flatulence in the other room when it was quiet enough. But seriously, my hearing was way better than it is now. I know from many years of critical music listening, both from high end audio, and that of many live events, just exactly what I am missing now.  These factors may seem minimal above 16 kHz, but I know from memory what is no longer apparent to me.  That delicate presence of "air" which happens at the high end of the scale is one thing that I recognize as missing, or at least nowhere as clear as it once was.


Maybe if I wire one of those capacitors that cost the equivalent of "gold per weight" between my ears, perhaps I can hear that again?


;D


You see where the presence of "air" falls within the frequency range on this chart. If you can still hear in that range above 16 kHz, and you are over 50 years of age, then you are really fortunate!






Understanding the Audiogram

   X and Y Axes: The audio-gram has two main axes. The horizontal axis (x-axis) represents frequency or pitch, measured in hertz (Hz). It typically ranges from low pitches (250 Hz) on the left to high pitches (8000 Hz) on the right. The vertical axis (y-axis) represents intensity or loudness, measured in decibels (dB), with the softest sounds at the top and the loudest at the bottom.

   Thresholds: During a hearing test, the audiologist finds the quietest sound you can hear at each frequency, known as your threshold. These thresholds are marked on the audio-gram. A series of these marks across different frequencies creates a profile or "line" that visually represents your hearing ability.

   Interpreting Results: Normal hearing thresholds are typically between -10 dB and 15 dB. If your thresholds are within this range across all frequencies, your hearing is considered normal. Thresholds that fall below this range (higher dB numbers) indicate hearing loss. The further down the chart the thresholds are, the greater the degree of hearing loss.


The way I see it, for the most part, unless there is critical damage within the inner ear, music is still very much interpreted on an enjoyable level. If your balance is optimal from 10kHz down, you are still perceiving the majority of what lies within the soundtrack. When it comes to Classical music, this is where the restriction is most apparent due to the extreme dynamic range, and the delicate nuances of the upper frequencies which play a major part of that music. The "air" factor is most perceived here.

As for Classic Rock, or Metal, then you are not likely to be missing enough to make a questionable difference. That would be so minimal that it isn't a problem at all. Most music other than Classical will remain lower in the registers for the majority of the recordings out there. Once subjected to heavy compression/limiting, it absolutely does not matter anymore. The studio already ruined the recording in the final process.


Anyway, not going to go any further with the hearing aspect of music. Just making it clear so that we can rule out the BS factor.

I realize that I am inflicted with this loss, so I make that clear when I give my perspective upon what I hear in the music. The fact is, there is detail within the upper registers that I know are there, and damn, I wish I could hear them, but I doubt that I can.  I am very accustomed to what much of this music sounds like from my early years, so this can't be questioned as a factor.


The following images are what certainly led to my current situation. After decades of exposure to aviation, even though I always wore OSHA approved hearing protection, I endured intense pain within my ears when subjected to intense military afterburner decibels which can easily destroy hearing very quickly if not protected. The high frequency pitch of the airflow as it passed through the Vari-Ramps (variable intakes) of the F-15 was one of the things I had long term exposure to at close range. The intensity of that noise is very painful to the ear, even with earplugs AND headsets in place.

I remember back in 1982 during war simulation exercises at Nellis AFB, NV, engulfed by a sea of fighter aircraft swarming all around, constantly taking off and landing, the culmination of all jet noise became unbearable after 12 hours of exposure. Between the noise and the smell of burnt jet fuel, I would require Tylenol that night just to relieve the massive headache from that exposure. My ears were very sensitive to loud noise back then. I am sure that this did not help matters. The good news for me is that I had my hearing checked professionally in a controlled audio-gram booth every six months the entire time I spent in aviation.  Up until my mid thirties, I still had exceptional hearing intact and above average for someone my age. When you approach nearly three decades of this exposure, the outcome is going to be negative.

Here are two examples of what I worked closely with during the eighties. The B1B bomber, and the F-15C and D model fighter. These produced the loudest, and most intense decibel levels that one would ever want to be around long term. Very painful to the ears even with double hearing protection. The low frequency impact was equally as intense as it ripped through your body. Kind of like when Army Howitzers are being fired at close range. But you know what?...I LOVED THE HELL OUT OF IT! Those were proud days for me.

To all of you brave American military personnel who served the USA with pride, I stand with you for your great courage and selfless contribution dedicated to a FREE America!  Freedom is NOT free! The American way of life came at an extreme cost. We almost lost it.

I am proud to have served the many years which I contributed to make our world a better place. I am grateful that I did not become one of the many casualties of war. I know that the alternative is loss of limbs, loss of mental health, and ultimately, loss of life. So you see that considering how bad things could have been for me, for which others are not so lucky, I never forget, and I always honor those who gave the ultimate sacrifice. I salute you with the absolute respect that you deserve. Keep our flag flying proudly!











But thankfully, I managed to get through all of that with my hearing intact, for the most part anyway.


:)




Oh, and of course, my exposure to many, many rock concerts might have had some effect upon hearing loss, just maybe.  That is the thing that is so nice about listening to a symphony orchestra, no ringing in the ears afterward.



8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/02/25 at 21:24:06

Getting back to recent upgrades and what I have noticed so far.



Here are my Q-force speakers removed from the cradles and sitting directly on the floor. With these sitting at this proximity to my ears in a direct fashion, this position is perfect for the portrayal of holography for which the C9 creates so very well. If you mount a laser in direct center with the phase plug, the path would fire a straight line within one inch of each ear perspective of each channel. These speakers have a rake of 5 degrees which engulfs my head space in an ideal manner for best perception of space around the instruments and vocals. The massive diffusers behind my head immediately dissolve and scatter the direct beams of sound to eliminate recurring detrimental reflections which negatively affect the acoustic space.

Yesterday, I removed the original full range drivers, disconnected the supplemental tweeters, and removed the entire crossover network components within. The tweet remains in place, but no longer serves any purpose. It is not necessary, it simply is removed from the equation. This is a fresh platform for which to test the much higher quality Tang Band W8-1808 full range drivers. These drivers are a direct drop in with matching screw points. A perfect fit. The enclosures are Tapered Quarter Wave designs that produce an F3 of 27 Hz before roll-off occurs. The extreme engineering of these high quality speaker designs are deserving of the better W8-1808 drivers for maximum performance. I should have used these drivers from the beginning.

A properly built speaker with the right "full range driver" is always going to be the best possible in terms of resolution and realism. There are zero components in the signal path to color and taint the sound.  Many would argue that the open baffle design with "crossover-free" full range drivers are the ultimate. Everyone has their preference, but I think there is a great deal of merit concerning that design. It really depends upon the signature that you want to achieve. I have found that type of design very promising to say the least.

Here are the speakers after the driver upgrade.
















This is the superb Tang Band W8-1808 full range driver that now displaces this speaker enclosure.











This is the one of several major upgrades made recently which really make my ToriMK3 sing in all it's glory.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 02/04/25 at 03:45:27
 I can't add much to what you have already said except to agree with the method of measurement for distance of each driver to the ear. Congrats. You wouldn't believe how many people think that they can eyeball this part. Nope.
The 1808 was the driver used for the ZOB cabinet design. Steve said that he was so surprised at how little that it needed modification compared to the other drivers that he tried using. They have since gone way up in price and are even discontinued if I am correct. Good job with this mission. Seems to me that you got all the parts right, so implementing all this in a listening environment (if you haven't already) is the last step.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/04/25 at 04:29:30
Greg,


The W8-1808 in my speaker designs sound phenomenal with the C9. I have had them for a long time. Should have installed them a long time ago.

I believe that Parts Express still has them in stock for around $375.00 per driver.

Yes, I am setting up for continued evaluations within my highly refined acoustic environment. I was working on the initial stage of this, but I am just exhausted from today's activities.

I am putting this off for tomorrow.

This is the beginning of a new phase on this thread. If you find this of interest, then stay tuned and check back often. There will be much more to come for quite some time. I shall attempt to accurately convey what I hear within the various music titles, and changes within the equipment.


I'm done for tonight.

Thanks for the comment.

Later

[smiley=59.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 02/04/25 at 14:00:49
I'm not sure how you damped the inside of your cabinets. Reflections from the back cabinet wall, slanted or not, will fire right thru the back of those paper thin cones. Not an issue with open baffles setting out from the listening space's back wall.

Something to consider.

I enjoyed your service stories. Will have to tell more the next time we get together.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/04/25 at 16:57:23

JB,

Thanks for the feedback, and the suggestion, it is well noted and absolutely a critical factor to acknowledge.

I will add that this is not my first time taking a stroll around the speaker building block. I tripped over one and got hurt.

;D

So yes, you make a very strong point which any good speaker designer would not overlook. When I said that "it is what you don't see that makes these designs so special" certainly took the driver back wave under full consideration. I am not providing full disclosure because I want to protect the design details so that someone doesn't copy and sell my design.  I am still reserving that possibility for a later time.

Let's just say as an example, I want you to visualize the concept of a venturi, or that of a one-way check valve. The flow can only go one way with tight control preventing backward flow. This can also be conveyed similar to the way a high speed diode works for which it is very effective.

With proper design, the flow of air pressure is pulled away from the rear of the driver and directed downward within the tapered quarter wave structure much like the way a vacuum maintains it's forceful extraction in a cyclonic event. Adding to that, there is no direct plane of existence to conflict within the rear of the driver which would create bounce-back reflections. This is carefully designed to absorb and control that detrimental aspect without impeding the performance of the speaker.

Sure, we always have to deal with problematic resonance issues. I feel this is not a problem for my design. Double barrier structures with proper bracing and materials go a long way to controlling resonance issues.

Absolutely this was one of the first major points to consider when I built these designs. Actually, it was one of the most critical areas for which I concentrated on.  Let's just say that this is not a problem with my designs, and it won't have much effect upon the ultra fast "thin" construction of the cones.


 One more note:  Here again, this brings up the reason why it makes perfect sense to have open baffle speakers set up properly within a room using the required acoustic control measures to bring it all together.

 Perhaps this is why so many Audiophiles praise this design by a large degree of affirmation.


There must be something to it.



As for my time in the military, those years created a path of experience for me that otherwise, I would have never gained knowledge from. I indeed had my share of experiences during that period. I traveled the world, and also the states extensively during my career. Most of what I was part of was very secretive in nature for which a security clearance was mandatory. Have you ever been interviewed by the FBI? I have, just imagine that. The government knows more about your existence than you do yourself. If you try to BS them, that is automatic grounds for denial.

You don't want unstable whack jobs working around live nuclear warheads. Even though there are extensive security measures always in force, it only takes one slip up in the wrong hands. Our mission was counter deterrence from the Soviet Union. You slept well at night because we were always on guard and at the ready.

The B1B you see in the image is part of the nuclear triad force of that time. The newer stealth bomber took over that role for which it still stands today. I feel so old now, just like those mighty aircraft which are now obsolete with today's technology. Where in the hell did the time go!!!


Get that room ready JB, I just may be coming your way to compare notes.


You must be completely "stoked" with your DAC!



8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by 4krow on 02/04/25 at 17:53:56
I can't leave anything alone. Certainly not a speaker cabinet or design. I just got to know 'what if' results. In this case, I moved the black short horn to and fro, attempting to get more bass into the slot feeding the bottom cabinet/resonator.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/04/25 at 18:29:56




I can't leave anything alone.


It wouldn't be any fun if you did!  We can't learn anything if we don't explore the possibilities.

I can see that you are set up for favorable results with the C9 as well.  A very smart choice on your part.

So did this little mod do anything noticeable for the sound? Like anything else, if it is detectable by human hearing, and it makes an improvement, then of course you have success. When you are at the level of those designs, any improvements won't come easy. That is not to say it won't happen.

The great thing about audio is that exploration is our playground. Who has the better sandbox?


[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/04/25 at 21:48:05
Some more detail for recent upgrades that will be used in upcoming music reviews as revealed within my fully dedicated highly advanced acoustical setting. There will be a progression of changes within the system as these evaluations unfold.

It all starts with the latest revision to my own custom speaker design built to the highest standard. These are an advanced version of the Tapered Quarter Wave design method. With rear passive bass extension, and thick stable construction using Baltic Birch, these speakers perform at a level which simply can not be surpassed for a speaker this size.  These are proportionally raked back at 5 degrees, with matching cradles which support as bass reinforcement chambers for deep extension.

I am currently using them directly on the floor without the cradles. Super efficient and extremely dynamic, with a strong focus upon imaging and clarity. The Q-force design is as revealing and transparent as one could ever expect a speaker to be. These are far more complex than what meets the eye. It's what you don't see that makes the difference. The sound quality proves that.

Listening confirms the intended promise to the highest regard. I spent a small fortune and a great deal of time perfecting this design. I am now taking this level even higher with the latest driver upgrade. With very little amplification, this design will quickly go beyond the sonic limits for which most listeners never exceed.

These produce very serious decibels which go beyond safe listening. They never over taxi the amp, with most of the power idling in reserve. Only the most demanding transient peaks will nudge the amp up for more power short term. Whether your passion is Classical music, or the hard hitting force of Metal, these speakers easily portray vastly different music styles with unfaltering presence one expects to hear.

If you desire the ultimate speaker for mini-watt SET amps, this design is a perfect match. No longer will you desire more bass extension, or have to feel "limited" by a substandard sonic presence. 2 or 3 watts per channel will drive these very efficiently in a very satisfying manner. Nothing like what the Torii amps will, but you better have a large room if you need power on that level.  Anything above one quarter of the Torii amp range is simply too loud, leading to dangerous levels which must be kept within reason.  It sounds great, but the decibel level is intense! (that is if you use an uncompressed high quality master recording with full range intact )

That intense relationship with music in the physical realm is what makes music so exciting within it's forceful presence, at least for me anyway. Reminds me of being close range to the action at an NHRA event when top fuel dragsters are in this vicinity.  Well, maybe not quite that intense, but you get the drift.  It is where the excitement level takes things up a whole new level. The sound quality of music is one thing, but I have to FEEL it's presence to be one with it.



Something this intense is enough to give an old man a woody!

I love the smell of burning nitromethane in the morning.


:o




*lower quality recordings require much more power to produce the same sonic equivalent, or at least "attempt" to approach that level.  Heavy compression/limiting destroys the recording. There isn't much one can do to correct for that other than try a Z-box in the signal path.


If you love it loud with gut penetrating bass, then you will get your wish. With the new full range drivers, I am well satisfied with the decibel factor and dynamics of my system set at no more than 3 or less on the volume dial. (scale of 1 to 10). The feel of the music is physically impactful at this level, and the sound pressure becomes intense but still with a firm grip on your senses that feels just right. For me, this brings the music at it's peak of immersive drive without over doing it. There is no need for a more powerful amplifier. All it takes are properly engineered speakers PLUS a high quality class A amplifier. Simply no need to go beyond that.  

*This of course results by the addition of an external bass enhancement system driven directly from the ToriiMk3 outputs as an extension of the mains.

Instead of placing the subwoofer drivers in the same enclosure with the mains (which leads to substandard bass performance due to room placement), they are instead placed in the part of the room where room modes do not affect them in the least way as possible. They are still driven in stereo mode independently as drivers, but work together in a push-pull configuration for optimal results. If the woofers are efficient and with reasonable speed, they do well to enhance the mains. Without strong bass response, I will just turn the system off and walk away. To me, music sucks without deep low frequency information. That is an important part of the music, right?

Full range driver speakers do not hit hard enough, or low enough to meet my satisfaction (when used on their own). They do everything else very well, but bass frequencies are not something I am willing to overlook.

Think of how much extension one fails to hear without the capability to recreate something like pipe organs. If I don't feel those lower registers, then I am not getting the whole picture. It may not be on the same level as that same organ playing in the gigantic cathedral from where it was recorded, but at least it becomes a more believable representation which can be enjoyed very favorably.

The ToriMk3 is a low frequency beast as it drives these speakers. When switching impedance between an 8 ohm load and a 4 ohm load, the level of low frequency dominance varies to a wide margin. One position creates a low shelf mode which extends deeper, with more impact upon lower frequencies. The other position virtually creates a heightened upper bass range which is more subdued by comparison.

The bass response is at a higher "shelf" with a leaner response within the bass region at 8 ohms. It is very noticeable to the point you would think something happened to the speaker woofers (like turning the bass tone dial all the way down). This results in a more subdued presentation of the bass without the brute force at lower volume. For high quality recordings that produce strong levels of low frequency content, the 8 ohm position is more ideal for well controlled bass output. When you need more bass, or just like a strong bass attack with physical impact, then the 4 ohm setting will give you that. I run this amp in high bias mode for full robust presentation.

I have auxiliary low frequency enhancement provided by an external enclosure using twin 12 inch drivers in a push pull fashion (wired in stereo). The auxiliary low frequency enclosure is driven directly from the ToriiMk3 terminals along with the mains. For the best control and balance between this unit and the main speakers, the best balance seems to be at the higher impedance setting, driving them as one. The bass extension is deep and fast paced when set to this position.

If you want bass so powerful that you want to see particles falling from the ceiling, then use the 4 ohm position. The bass response is absolutely tactile and deep. Of course, the 4 ohm load is driving the amplifier harder, so this will influence the sonic character switching from 8 to 4 ohms. The difference is quite substantial. I place the auxiliary bass enhancement to the rear of my position for better room response where it is most effective in the room. Always consider the pathway of nodes and anti-nodes within the room. Where you place a woofer makes all the difference in output and definition.

My future speaker design will surpass the current speaker design in a different approach, as I am taking that design to extreme levels of engineering. A major part of this design is in how the rear wave is directed and controlled within the room in direct relation to the focused front firing driver in relation to your ears. With tuning wave-guides (adjustable), and a touch of phase inversion along with a few milliseconds of induced delay at corresponding angles of projection, the goal is to create a morphed assimilation between speaker and acoustic environment, evolving into a complete submersion of high dimensional holography induced space.


That synergistic marriage is where I set out to create the ultimate combination driven by the ToriMK3, sonic holography, and a highly modified digital front end.

With a well balanced premium acoustic environment in place, it is time to see just how deep I can actually get within the music.  It is time to begin exploring my creations as far as possible within a reasonable and sensible manner. The absolute focus is upon extracting every bit of precision out of the holography principle.

Without that as the main focus of my room and system, all else is meaningless to me.

For now, this is the beginning of that quest. It all starts here at this level. The journey resumes.







The tubes used for the upcoming evaluations will remain the same. No tube rolling as I have determined the current configuration as optimal for my system. I find it very well balanced and simply without anything to desire.

The following is my current system configuration. This will be the beginning stage using what you see here.



















Next, I will go into detail with lot's of high res images showing the internal layout of my current ZERO (modified 09 version) DAC. This DAC revolves around the highly respected Burr Brown OPA627 twin OPAMPS in the output stage. These are among the best ever produced for high end audio. Piggy back them in parallel fashion, and that quality factor goes up exponentially. Think CPU cooling when doing this. The heat factor becomes a problem.





To be continued.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/05/25 at 20:39:00



To give a broader perspective as to what is involved with my current equipment line up which will be used in the initial listening evaluations, here are some internal views of my (09 version) upgraded ZERO DAC. This DAC sounds extremely good for something priced on a budget level. The original version of this DAC gained high popularity within the audio circles for its great performance for such a low investment. (typical of a Chinese import)

The original DAC design had a couple of issues which needed upgrading due to over heating and premature failure. There were also some areas which could benefit from better quality components and a couple of areas which completely needed redesigned to make this unit a much higher quality product. The heat failure situation was corrected mainly with larger heat sinks and a few other improvements. Higher quality Mosfets for voltage regulation was one of those upgrades if I recall correctly.

Tighter value components of audiophile grade replaced much of what was used in the original version. You will find many Elna Silmic II caps throughout, as well as high quality Nichicon caps, and the use of higher quality film caps.

The extensive and brilliant use of ferrite filters, which are electronic components made of ferrite used for suppressing and dissipating high-frequency electrical noises, are used throughout very strategically. These filters are effective at attenuating EMI in electromagnetic circuits and devices.

You find a well designed power supply using a high end toroid transformer. The circuit board is of premium multi layer quality which replaced the original lesser grade board.

To top things off, the output stage is based upon twin high end audiophile grade Burr Brown OPA627 OPAMPS. These are easily removed quickly for "chip rolling" if desired. This provides the easy upgrade to the more advanced discrete HDAM modules which are readily available now for upgrading at a reasonable cost.

The case is premium quality with a clean design. This unit offers Toslink fiber optic input direct from the transport, or USB and coaxial are options as well. The output provides unbalanced RCA connections.

This unit provides a separate headphone amp circuit dedicated for that reason. I do not use it, and it is completely discrete from the DAC circuit itself. This unit was never known for being a great sounding headphone section, but that doesn't matter to me.

When I purchased this DAC based upon the popularity and great reviews of it's performance, I merely was curious, and simply wanted to see just how good this DAC really was for such a ridiculous low price. The price for this level of quality would easily be an increase of 700 percent or higher if sold through a dealer in the US.

That would place it among the higher priced units that are currently being sold through retail outlets locally. I ordered my DAC directly from the builder in China, eliminating all of the other costs. I was able to custom order my unit direct with the options I wanted. It was custom built for me on demand.

So the playing field must yield to all factors considered before true value can be actually determined. The price of something is not a good indicator which conveys actual performance and credibility. Remove the cost of production, the middleman, the high labor costs, marketing costs, transportation cost, etc, and you just eliminated 80 percent of what you are paying for with high priced retail products distributed and sold through audio dealers.

Buying direct from the actual shop who designed and built the product eliminates most of that cost which jacks up the cost of products substantially.

The actual value depends upon the circuit and what lies within. This design carries a huge return on investment, and so much more. This unit can easily go up against designs costing ten times over. The sound quality suggests something MUCH more expensive to say the least.

I operate this DAC directly from the TEAC transport, bypassed within the Tascam player. Output is fed through fiber optics directly to the DAC, and then routed to the C9 holography generator before going out to the amplifier.  Soon, there will be additional testing with the new Zrock3 in the loop.

We begin with a look at the power supply inside of the DAC.





























I will focus upon interconnects and speaker cables next.


To be continued.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/06/25 at 05:49:21



Great care focused upon the prevention of high frequency noise and RFI rejection by the use of those black ferrite noise filters which you see throughout, along with a full array of bypass capacitors (yellow) to cleanse every electrolytic capacitor within the critical areas of the signal path. That is one hell of an addition to insure signal purity for a DAC at this price range (or any price range). That says a great deal about quality.

The Cirrus Logic CS8416 192 kHz Interface Receiver is mounted on the underside of the circuit board along with the AD1852 Decoding chip.









ZERO 24/192kHz DAC headphone amplifier USB_OPA627


*Independent circuit for D/A converter.

*Enlarged heat sinks by 30 percent over original model.

* Upgraded power supply designed to eliminate static disturbance.

*Supports maximum of 24 bit/192 kHz input.

*Independent digital optical fiber input.

*Opamps are designed to be easily interchangeable.

*Delayed turn on/off function.

*Double faced (cuprum on one side and foil on the other) circuit board
which has been upgraded to a thicker higher quality version.

*Receiving chip: CS8416

*Decoding chip: AD1852

* Opamp chip: OPA627

*S/N ratio: 105 dB

*Distortion: 0.0005 percent

*Dynamic range:117 dB

*Frequency response: 20 Hz-30kHz

*Output frequency: 2V

*Input: optical / coaxial






As for the interconnects:









Only one set of interconnects are made using this premium Mogami microphone cable. The other sets of interconnects look identical to these, but are actually Dayton Audio microphone cable which is very similar in construction. The main physical differences between these two types is that the outer mesh shield is a fine copper mesh with the Mogami cable, and the actual conductors are made from very fine annealed copper strands compared to the Dayton Audio cable. So you wouldn't think these minute construction methods would really make an audible difference, however, I hear something more refined with just one set of these cables being the final run to the amplifier from the C9.

This is enough to motivate me for upgrading the remaining interconnects to the Mogami cable. I have a feeling that with a full upgrade throughout the signal chain, I just may hear a significant difference with more refinement, and I believe that I will. The refinement refers to noticing a more polished sound, one that is very relaxed, and very smooth. The verdict is still out on the outcome of this. This shall be a future test to see if there is actually further gain from this cable change with the remaining cables.

The RCA connectors are as good as one will ever use in a high performance audiophile cable. These are not as pricey as WBT connectors, but these are every bit as good. A much better bargain for the cost difference. You will NEVER hear noise pass through these cables, PERIOD! With the grounding copper mesh shield soldered to one end of the cable and open on the other, along with these premium RCA designs which make ground before signal contact, and break signal before ground, this becomes a DEAD stop for noise transfer. It simply won't happen.

The Mogami cable features #22AWG conductors and extremely low capacitance. The 100% coverage served shield and twisted pair construction is excellent at preventing noise caused by electromagnetic interference.

These interconnects are dead quiet. I have never heard a trace of hum or any other type of noise, or interference what-so-ever. The background is totally black. These are by far, the best cables I have ever used in a high end system. The quality factor cannot be surpassed. This is a totally neutral cable with very low capacitance for which to pass the signal as unchanged as possible from one end to the other. That is the ultimate goal of the cable.  




Pro-fi Cable Connectors

Spring loaded ground contact: retractable element with separate wedge contacts which keeps the shell in the front position when engaged thus also providing a direct and strictly coaxial electrical connection from the socket via the shell to the cable shield. All metal design, machined brass, black coated shell. Easy assembly and soldering (large soldering area, rapid-flow plating). High grade plastic insulator with high creep resistance.

Key Features



  * Makes ground before signal contact and breaks signal before ground
  * No more disturbing noise and broken speaker cones
  * Precisely machined to our demanding quality standards
  * Neutrik unique chuck type strain relief
   *Gold plated contacts




Now, let's examine my custom DIY speaker cables.

These are a set of experimental cables that I quickly threw together to evaluate how good a set of cables would be using the copper foil from a high quality wax/copper foil inductor. One inductor unrolled and doubled in half is long enough to make a set of 17 foot long speaker cables.

To insulate them, they are individually wrapped in wax paper, then protected with electrical tape on one side, with just the wax on the other. The conductors are placed taped side to waxed side and placed within an outer shield. These are then terminated with heavy gauge pure copper spade connectors. The cables going to the auxiliary bass unit use 12 gauge speaker wire which you see mounted at the top of the amplifier posts.


In this image, the cables are too close to the power cords and transformers. Ideally, they should be routed as far from these areas as possible. I have not detected stray noise from being this close, but I did route them with as much isolation as possible. These cables have no shielding, so they could act like long antennas. As of yet, there has been zero noise with these cables. Nothing but ultra pure high definition sound. These have proven to be major upgrades as opposed to running standard stranded 12 gauge copper speaker wire. The difference in sound quality is instantaneous by a large degree of focus. Completely superior.











When I first listened to these new speaker cables with a cold system, they were a bit on the bright side initially. You can't expect a cold audio system to sound good until it warms up to proper operating temperature. I did not lose anything in the lower frequency spectrum, but I gained a wide margin in the upper frequencies.

After letting the new cables burn in for a few hours, I came back to listen again. This time, the sound had relaxed, and now things were being conveyed in an ultra revealing manner, with the overall presentation sounding completely natural. What is immediately apparent is the incredible amount of fine detail, and delicate nuances which simply were masked with the stranded cable.

This truly is like switching from standard DVD to 4kUHD image quality. This quick and low cost upgrade was quite surprising to say the least. I am completely satisfied with the signature of these cables.




I have provided you with all the important details of my current system so that you can formulate what these evaluations are based upon. There will be changes as these music evaluations transpire. Any changes made will be noted.


When I return, I want to discuss the technology of HDAM modules, and what I want to compare concerning these advanced output stage components for the DAC. There are many options to offer with this upgrade, and it is actually affordable.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/11/25 at 18:44:09




Okay, I want to cover the HDAM technology which is available right now in many flavors and prices. HDAM stands for (High Definition Analog Module).

If your intent is to remain with an output stage using OPAMPS, then this is for the price, the most rewarding upgrade one can make to a DAC for such a very low investment. I doubt that one could find a better return on investment, considering what this very simple and quick upgrade will do for your system. This will do FAR more for your system than rolling expensive tubes, or upgrading to esoteric capacitors, by a long shot! The same goes for expensive pixie dust cables.

This is like adding a supercharger to your existing engine. The results are that incredible if the right module is chosen to complement your DAC.

If you only use a tube output stage, bypassing the OPAMP stage, then this is of no interest to you as it is no longer used in your DAC. If however, your DAC is set up like mine, then you would have the option of using either of the two output stages as desired.

You can do your own research on this technology if you wish, as I am not going into that here at this time.

I myself am very interested in trying out the offerings from Virtual-HiFi which are variations of multiple chips integrated on one card in parallel to increase performance exponentially. I want to try the top of the line which has a total of EIGHT chips paralleled on a single card which simply installs directly into the existing OPAMP socket. This model is "Brute Force One" which sells for a very reasonable price of only $134.00 online direct. That is a serious BANG for your buck to say the least.

Upgrades of this nature are far more relevant and rewarding than that of cable, tube, or capacitor changes. Once this upgrade is made, then the addition of better cables and caps can really be advantageous concerning the degree of gain you will actually receive from all upgrading in general.

Stock OPAMPS used in DACS of past are obsolete by comparison of what a new supercharged chip will do in it's place. What do you suppose the most expensive DACS being engineered today use?  Pretty sure this technology is a vital aspect of what makes current DACS sound so superior. Again, if your DAC design uses a tube buffer output stage, and that is all that you use, then this doesn't matter for you.

"Stacking" multiple OPAMPS in parallel is one way to get this type of performance, but this comes at the trade off for increased heat which usually requires heat sinks to keep cool.

The other way is to upgrade using a single (HDAM) which usually takes up less space, and may, or may not require additional cooling.

Either way you go, that choice will make a significant difference to the performance of your DAC.

If you build computers and are familiar with what "over-clocking" a CPU does for performance with all settings set to maximum, then you get the drift as to how relative this method is pertaining to upgrading the DAC with a higher performance chip. Of course, as an example, when you overclock a CPU, it is being stressed to it's upper abilities, therefore generating a great deal of heat which will self destruct without additional cooling methods.

Consider this benefit like upgrading from an Intel Core i5 of five years past, to a current generation Intel Core i7 chip. This is like comparing a Chevy to a Ferrari.


Here are two examples from the product line offered from the Virtual HiFi website. They have various models and configurations to suit just about any DAC.







You may find it interesting to watch this video.





As for choices available in the HDAM line up, there are many.



You might enjoy watching this demonstration on YouTube. This is simply an A/B test without you knowing which model you are hearing. This gives you an opportunity to choose which you think sounds best without bias to any particular model.

Make sure that you do this evaluation with high quality headsets in a quiet room. Do not try to attempt this with just the computer audio as the result will be worthless. Over-ear headsets like the Beyer-Dynamic DT770 PRO model, or something similar, are best to hear these differences in quality.

I think the end result will shock you as to what you choose as your favorite. I thought for sure that my choice was the one I assumed it to be, but guess what, that was not the case. They will disclose everything at the end, please don't cheat and skip to the end to find out. It is the blind testing that makes this evaluation so important. Give it a shot, you just may be surprised.

Of course, what you hear in this video by means of quality destroying compression, is nowhere near what you would hear from an actual demonstration in a professional listening room. Regardless, the difference is quite noticeable and easy to distinguish among the variants evaluated.

Let me know what you think if you try this, and post your results here. Many might find this interesting to hear from other's perspective regarding these HDAM chips.  This actually helps those who are interested in trying one of these upgrades.





Here is that video:





This definitely helped me to be better informed concerning my choice. I found the results quite enlightening.











Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/11/25 at 21:06:04



Moving on, it is time to introduce the birth of "Lampucera" with the cloned Musical Fidelity X10 tube output stage using 6n11 tubes, which are ECC88 variants. Alternatives are 6922 or 6DJ8. This board has a "jumper" feature to use 12AU7 tubes if you like.

Wile E Coyote placed her upon the ACME alter, energizing her for the first time. Here she is as she takes her first audio breath.



































This diagram shows the direct bypass path from the high end TEAC transport strait out to the Lampucera DAC input via Toslink connection.





The initial listening results for this kit absolutely stunned me by surprise! I had read so many comments by others who tested this kit which were somewhat negative and less than stellar compared to what I hear in my system. The only complaint I have so far which I was warned by the designer about upgrading it, was that of the cheap transformer provided to power the tube output stage. It simply is not up to the task.

For the first several hours with this kit powered up, there was no noise from the transformers what-so-ever. After playing the DAC with a load on the transformer for a couple of hours, the transformer powering the tube stage began making a buzzing sound. This sound did was not through the signal path. This sound actually came from the body of the transformer.

This is not a case of DC offset. The other transformer is wired to the same power plug together. The other transformer which powers the DAC board, does NOT make any noise.

I believe the culprit comes from a transformer being "over stressed" by a load which it can't handle. Since the noise began after a few hours, this means that heat is likely the core problem.

When it heats up due to overloading, the transformer core begins to break apart. These are laminated layers which end up separating which induce vibration. The buzzing sound is a result of these layers expanding and contracting due to an increased magnetic field from over current. When this happens, this is what is called "Magnetostriction".

Why am I sure of this, because when I let the transformer cool down a few hours, I turned the system back on to test it again. There now was a very minor buzz noted, but went silent for the first few minutes of playing time. By the time I had finished listening to one full length CD, the buzzing was noticeably creeping back at higher levels. Soon after, the loud buzzing was back in a constant state. It only came from the transformer driving the tube stage. The other transformer has yet to make a noise.


I planned to upgrade this transformer immediately anyway, but I wanted to use the kit "as is" for demonstration purposes to give the kit a fair shot right out of the box. I already anticipated the outcome, so this was not a surprise.

I ordered a high quality heavy duty toroidal transformer last night which will never be stressed by this load. Far superior qulity to the stock unit, and very much recommended to be taken seriously.  That transformer will arrive on Thursday, so I should be evaluating this first upgrade by Friday.

This is the first of many important upgrades which will propel this DAC to compete with the finest out there on the market. After hearing what the initial stages of this DAC design can offer as is, there is zero doubt in my mind that after undergoing some much needed upgrades concerning capacitors and tubes, this thing is going to be KILLER!  I think I will rename my little beauty "Goddess-Zilla" the Queen of DACS. She is going to eat everything in her path and stomp on the rest!   Just joking, but this is going to be a really excellent DAC once the upgrades are finished, and the components are properly placed within a chassis.


Here is the new transformer I will be upgrading with to solve the buzz issue. This is number one on the list for major upgrades to this DAC for achieving  high end performance.








The next upgrade will be the Capacitors within the tube output stage. These are the ones chosen based upon review after review giving glowing feedback about these capacitors and how they compare to the ultra high priced esoteric capacitors on the market. Again, I want the most bang for my buck. After much research, I believe that the Jantzen Superior Z caps are going to be my best choice.

I will tell you this by sheer surprise, as I expected this kit to sound very crappy right out of the box in base form, that wasn't exactly the case.  I expected those cheap Solen Caps to sound really bad, and frankly, any "new"component is expected to sound bad until burned in properly. So I did not expect much from this initially.

Well, I do know that when first used, the first few hours can sound okay, but then normally begin to drift in ways which will make you think it is a lemon going down fast. But those of us who are experienced, know that break-in is a very real thing in audio. New capacitors take time to burn in to the point where they remain stable at an optimum operating point. It is expected that after the first power on, and after the first cool down period, when you listen the second time, you will start to hear this wavering quality factor as it begins to wander beyond the expected sound quality.  You can actually hear this change as the listening hours pass by. Usually, after about twenty to fifty hours have passed, the caps remain fairly stable and the sound quality remains consistent. The more time burned in, the better the sound quality gets. Just like a great bottle of wine. Ye shall serve no bottle of fine wine before it's time!

Here are the caps which will soon be implemented within "Goddess-Zilla". With enough capacitance, perhaps she will breath fire?

This shall be the second phase of upgrades.








These caps shall be used for bypassing the other caps just upgraded. This should take things up a few notches even further.





The next upgrade will be the tubes. I was shocked to hear just how good these cheap 6n11 Chinese tubes actually sound. They are far better than you would imagine. Again, I did not expect much, again, I was proven wrong.  I actually find it hard to believe, but the proof is in listening. I am fairly impressed.  These tubes were negatively reviewed by others, I think unfairly considering their low cost. They do not sound bad at all. They will do fine until better tubes replace them.

My choice is that of Russian made Electro-Harmonix 6922EH tubes in a matched pair. I believe these are the answer for this DAC.


Soon, I will be installing this set of matched tubes.








Once I get to this point, I should begin to find out just how much potential Goddess-Zilla really has as I unleash her power.



[smiley=cool.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/14/25 at 20:02:34



I have had this new DAC burning in for roughly twenty hours now. The worst part of the initial break-in period is past for the DAC stage. The tube buffer stage has a long way to go before those capacitors begin to operate at optimal levels with stability. I will say this as a pre-curser to what's ahead for possible sound quality improvement with this tube stage. From the very first moment I heard what this Musical Fidelity X10 design presented, and that of being brand new, zero time on it, and with a cold system, it became apparent that this design holds great promise for which break-in time, and the proper upgrades, are going to create for this tube-stage when finished.  I can easily predict an ideal musical quality second to none.

The initial break-in period is rather irrelevant at this time due to the fact that I will be upgraded most of the tube output stage with higher quality parts, particularly the transformers, capacitors, resistors, and tubes.

Whatever break-in period I have before the upgrades just goes out the window with a full reset. The burn-in period starts all over again. That is why I want to get the major upgrades done as soon as possible. I expect around 200 hours on the DAC/ tube stage before sounding really optimal and at it's best. I have an estimated 10,000 hours+ on my ToriiMK3 Amp. I can tell you from experience that it sounds far better now than it ever did. The aging process with full seating of the components as it becomes seasoned is where the amp is now, and it just keeps getting better.  My ZERO DAC has roughly 6,000 hours on it, and it too has developed favorably over the years. My Tascam transport isn't too far behind that time period.

The new toroidal transformer with triple secondaries was supposed to deliver yesterday, but was delayed in shipping.  I was expecting to have that upgrade finished for evaluation last night, but that didn't happen. The transformer should deliver within the next three hours today. As soon as it gets here, I will be installing it. Then a few hours of warming up with some initial break-in, and I will give it a listen again tonight with the tube stage back in operation. I do look forward to hearing this. I removed the bad EI transformer after it began buzzing. While waiting for the new replacement, I have been listening with the OPAMP stage.


For now, I will just go over some details concerning what I have heard from this kit so far, and convey some initial impressions. First of all, not sure if anyone took my suggestion and tried the OPAMP A/B test at the link I provided on YouTube, but the OPAMP at the top of that evaluation comparison shoot-out had one chip that is the same as what came with this DAC. The NE5532 OPAMP made by Texas Instruments was one of those tested blindly without you knowing what you listened to at the time.  It was definitely intended to be one of the lower performing chips in the line-up, and certainly one of the cheapest.  Funny thing is, it did not fair badly going up against the stiff competition which cost a hundred times over. I will state that it certainly is nothing to get excited about. It does need to be upgraded. This OPAMP can be purchased from Mouser for about $2.00.

The most expensive HDAM cost is roughly $150.00, with most contenders in the range of $50.00 to $100.00. *( These are HDAM modules which are a technological improvement above normal OPAMPs).  So considering where this chip placed in the competition, it did okay on average for the cost factor. The NE5532 is not a bad sounding OPAMP.  I consider it to be (upper-mid-level) compared to most products on the market. Certainly not high end, but very acceptable for those who are not critical audiophiles. This is the typical OPAMP used in mainstream equipment, not for high-end audiophile grade DACS.

My main goal for this new DAC is for the tube stage to be my primary listening component anyway, but I can switch over to the OPAMP output stage whenever I feel like doing so. This is very handy for direct and immediate comparison listening tests between the two output stages. This allows the listener to hear exactly what differentiates these completely different forms of technology.

Some like the clean but "sterile" sound signature that solid state is known for. Others like myself, are far more accepting of a good quality tube output stage for the DAC. You can call it a form of  "pleasant" even-order-harmonic-distortion if you like, but I do not look at things in that simple state of mind. Things are much more complex than that. Again, people have opinions based upon their preferences.

I base my opinions on fact and actual experience. The only thing that matters is how the listener who uses this equipment perceives the absolute outcome within their mind, and through their hearing potential. The best thing for each and every listener is the very thing they have accepted as their favorite. You can't dispute that fact. I don't buy something, or pretend to back a product based upon what some profit based "professional" reviewer comes up with as the final word in audio. He may try to set his opinion in stone, but I shall shatter it if I do not agree. It is not my concern as to how someone else perceives my system.

Since only I listen, and am satisfied with what I choose, the opinion of others becomes totally irrelevant to say the least concerning MY choice.  I could probably become "judge and jury" concerning my opinion of another system. Again, what we like as individuals in our own honest perception is all that really matters. If you like what you have, then don't feel the need to find something that may, or may not be better. Better than what? That is the golden question.

I certainly did not expect much in the way of finding a WOW factor upon hearing this DAC output stage equipped with the standard grade NE5532 OPAMP as it came stock. But I did expect that it would sound fairly acceptable, taking it's initial stance as a foundation for upgrade. Upgrading an OPAMP within my two DAC units is as easy as can be. The most complex part is operating a screwdriver to take the cover off. You can swap one of the output stages as fast as you can swap a vacuum tube on a Decware amp.  If you can change a lightbulb on your own, then you can do it.

Before I go into my impressions of the NE5532, I want to go back to the first night that I listened to the tube output stage on a completely fresh unit. This tube buffer is cloned after the very well designed Musical Fidelity X10 tube circuits. This currently drives a set of ECC88 tubes with Chinese 6n11 versions which came with the kit. Before I actually tried these tubes, my dark sense of predetermined bias against what these are at face value, had me convinced that these would beg for immediate replacement with something better. But hey, they are good for initial testing, and they do provide a starting point for an upgrade, and not a bad one at that.  

Look, for the ridiculous low price of this kit, these parts were just a benny to what is actually paid for. This kit was purchased for the DAC board, and the tube stage as the primary objective. That is where the focus is upon quality, and outcome to full potential of this DAC when finished.  They upgraded the DAC board with the best quality components available, the very ones that Mr. Fikus designed for this layout after extensive testing and evaluation of every component type available for this use.

The builder who supplies this kit built it with the same high grade components exactly as the final product was built by Fikus (creator of the world class Lampizator DAC's) who termed this design "Lampucera".

This DAC is based upon the best chips available, with the option to roll OPAMPS freely for personal choice. With a high end Cirrus Logic DAC chip and receiver based on 24 bit 192kHz technology, utilizing ultra premium master clock stability, this certainly needs no further examination to understand that this DAC means business! A major upgrade here which was determined to be the best overall was that of the Sanyo OSCON capacitors throughout the circuit.

The majority of the remaining circuit benefits greatly by use of premium Nichicon, and ELNA Silmic capacitors, along with nice WIMA film caps where most critical in the output stage. If I had tried to build this circuit using these exact same parts, my cost would have been much higher. Besides, the DAC comes ready to plug and play. It doesn't get any better than that. The beautiful thing about it is that I didn't spend a great deal of money on the base platform which is crucial to overall performance. This allows me to spend my money on the upgrades that I want in this DAC, built specifically to my specifications.

They sell this kit with the expectation and recommendation to upgrade with high quality transformers and output stage capacitors to bring this unit up to high-end standards. For the price they offer this kit at, they simply can't offer these premium components without raising the price considerably. The upgrades I have planned for this build are at least four times over the initial cost of this kit. And that does not cover the cost of a chassis and every other component that goes into the final build. The final cost is going to be high, but a far better deal than an equivalent high end DAC from a dealer.

To be fair, the DAC is only half of the equation. One still has to consider a high quality transport worthy of sending accurate signals free of jitter to the DAC stage. If the transport is substandard, the rest is pointless. It all becomes a waste of time. Without a high-end ultra stable transport, the final result will be limited to  the transport's limitations. No matter how well tuned your car engine is, as soon as you feed dirty fuel into it's complex fuel injection system, bad things are going to happen, and it is not the fault of the engine.

I use the TEAC CD5020A transport with a direct feed out to the external DAC via Tos-link output. This is one of the most stable drives in the industry which is the choice found in many high end CD players, and some of the best players ever produced. The master clock is of extreme accuracy and stability. This is the most important factor to consider if you expect a DAC to be something great. The DAC output will always be governed by the quality of the transport.

The TEAC CD5020A drive comes standard in the Tascam line of CD players. This provides the perfect base to start from. This drive performs virtually flawless within it's ability to track discs without error becoming an issue. I have played hundreds of Verbatim CD-R discs which I recorded using FLAC-lossless technology. Not once have I ever incurred a skip, a glitch, or any sign of noticeable error during playback with this unit. As for original discs, that fact remains the same. The quality factor of this drive is unwavering with it's precise delivery.

There are many lesser grade drives out there that simply will not play these CD-R discs without excessive error, that is if they have the ability to play them at all. Simply not an issue with the right transport. So yes, absolutely without doubt, the transport is the first, and foremost part of the DAC which will reveal how good it actually is.

 On the other end of the spectrum, the final stage design is what determines the actual sound signature. So many things determine that, but one thing stands out for me like no other, and to a much greater degree. That single thing is the use of a well designed tube output stage. For me, that is what makes a great DAC. May not be everyone's cup of tea, but it sure is mine. For me, that is all that matters. I will take that even order harmonic BLOOM that some call distortion, and simply appreciate that element which makes the sound of tubes so very special in high end audio, with a euphoric sense of virtual space, and divine ambience.

My point has been made, so you know where I am coming from, and what I expect to meet my goal.

Back to the initial listening impression during the first night with the tube output stage in this DAC kit. With my trained ear, and a controlled sense of pitch within the music, I find it relatively easy to detect changes within the music, no matter how subtle or complex. I focus upon each instrument, the space between those instruments, the overall ambience of the presentation, and the sense of "you-are-there" realism for which music should be able to persuade the listener if conveyed correctly.

Of course it helps to have a professional acoustic environment as the first basis of consideration if one expects to evaluate a system with any real merit. I think that I have that covered in an agreeable manner. This entire thread is based upon that foundation. I am simply just getting to the point where I can accurately perform evaluations of music without the room getting in the way. The room factor is ready, so now the music can be fairly evaluated. It is time to find out what mods or upgrades will take this musical journey even farther into the void of the unknown.

As I  told you previously, the initial listening session was cut short after a few hours due to a cheap EI transformer buzzing loudly as a result of what I expect to be a case of "magnetostriction". This transformer powered the tube output stage, and it simply is not good enough to use.

But, in the short time I had to really listen deep within the potential of this tube stage, I have to say, I was projecting great anticipation as to where the quality of this design is going based upon what I am hearing right out of the box.  Take strong consideration of the factors here at this time of crude implementation. When you consider that this DAC is fresh, and subject to burn in for decent sound quality parameters to take hold within justifiable enforcement, then you understand just how "raw" and untamed something like this is in the beginning. As I had said, my expectations were to hear extreme congestion, smearing, lack of detail, etc.

Wait a minute...that is nowhere close to what I actually perceived from the first two hours of this DAC coming alive. Oh sure, maybe it will sound okay for a an hour or so, but soon, I expected it to begin drifting into oblivion. Look, with cheap Chinese tubes, cheap Solen output capacitors in the most critical areas of the tube stage, and with those substandard transformers in the power supply, I was prepared for the worst.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/14/25 at 20:15:54




I will not tell you something crazy like it was really great and was the best thing ever, NO, certainly not. What I will tell you is that I was pleasantly surprised to where I found those two hours enjoyable and with great promise. Now I am running this test DAC straight from the transport, and directly into the amplifier with nothing else in the loop. I wanted to hear the DAC in a critical perspective without external enhancement or interference. Just the DAC plus amplification, nothing else.

Now you know my take on "holography" and it's critical part of the musical presentation. Without it, I feel something great is lost within the music. With that said, this may surprise you, as it did me when I experienced the ambience which abound me, filled with a special texture within the music as it was portrayed through my speakers. This my friends is what separates a good tube stage from that of a cold sterile OPAMP. If you are trained to hear the different signatures between vacuum tubes, and that of solid state as I am, then you understand completely why this is so, and to what degree it exists.


With that said, I expect that you can relate to this euphoric presence of which only tubes can generate. Perhaps that is why so many audiophiles praise high end tube amps to the fullest degree of appreciation. I kind of think there is a pattern of acceptance here which can't be denied. Now considering that I am using a high end tube amplifier to formulate this sound into the final state of musical essence, this indeed has something to do with the final projection within the room.

I am using full range high quality drivers without any crossover parts in the path. There is nothing in the signal path to color or mask the sound. The cables are of the highest standard possible for accurate signal transfer. The system is set up in a manner for which this DAC can truly be heard in its natural form as true as possible. That is the proper way to evaluate a component without any additional factors getting in the way to influence the outcome.


I began listening to complex classical selections which provided the ultimate test for this DAC to express it's inner quality. With the delicate nuances of Mozart, the energetic expression of Beethoven, the depth and intensity of Wagner, the horn section in Mussorgsky's (Pictures at an exhibition) and on to the tactile sonic punch of Tchaikovsky's (1812 overture) with live cannon fire (this audiophile grade disc is from Telarc, free from compression and limiters in the recording process), this is the ultimate test for evaluating any component, let alone something raw and fresh out of the box.

Following this, I put it to the hardcore test of hard driving metal (Metallica/Black album). I just have one thing to say....DAMN!!!  This thing is assimilating everything I throw at it with unbound grace amongst the  repertoire. Can you say low frequency extension and high energy percussion? You don't have to, just let the music say it for you.  Very impressive to say the least!

Then on to something with more complex space around the instruments, something that tells the story of what spatial imaging really conveys. This time, raising the bar, I fed the transport some well recorded orchestral settings with Ian Anderson playing Jethro Tull music live.

This is a really great sounding live album that was recorded as perfectly as one could imagine. The atmosphere of the hall was captured in a very robust "airy" presence which almost makes one smell the scent of the air as you close your eyes and imagine you are there in that realm at the moment of live performance. The progression of notes from Ian's flute blend seamlessly into the background orchestra, forming a body of  complex instrumental detail as if it were performing a delicate dance around the pronounced authority of the flute which commands the lead. Other than the flute and a guitar, the main body of the music was that of the orchestra.

Jethro Tull goes to the ball and plays for the King (as if you can imagine) before the clock strikes midnight, sending Ian back to his rock and roll stage with the likes of Aqualung in full power mode of guitars and percussion.  Music is the doorway to imagination. The better the experience, the further your imagination is enriched. Music is like a mental portrait. It is what you paint with which formulates the most fascinating picture, or that of imaginary illusion destined to remain within your memory forever.

So that being the case with my ZERO DAC in the normal system loop as a reference, what was revealed here with this newly created DAC which just came to life, absolutely gave me a dose of reality as to what is possible when certain things come together in perfect harmony. I am just trying to deny what I just heard, but I can't, because it was real.  It truly became a defiant force which kept my attention at full scope.

This is when I knew just how great this DAC was going to be. All I have to do is dress her up and take her to the dance, the rest will come naturally. "Goddess-Zilla" will need some etiquette training, and a bit of time before she is ready to take that first step towards being the Queen of DAC's.  That time will come, very soon. Right now, she is wild and she is full of untamed energy in her attempts to take on and defy whatever I throw at her. Yes, she is a winner, much like a wild mustang which needs to be broken before finding her intended purpose.

If I had not been the wiser, I would have formulated something far greater than what I expected, to say the least. This surely could not be true, am I imagining this? I think not. What I did hear is something that gave me concrete evidence as to where this DAC is going down the line. It has all the makings of a winner. I believe it is the foundation of greatness, and I say that with absolute conviction. With all future upgrades intact which this DAC tube stage demands respectively, and with appropriate time to burn in and season (at least 200 hours), this DAC will be ready as a major contender among the best out there.  

The music simply flowed effortlessly without constraint. I was simply amazed at the prospect of this as I certainly did not think it was possible. Like the intricate formation of an ice crystal, the music filled the room with delicate hints of expression which only the best of audio equipment can convey within a well engineered acoustic setting. The formation of attack and decay within bass notes and percussion were almost perfect in a manner which I know will grow stronger as the DAC settles in throughout the burn in phase. Whatever is heard initially, is simply a catalyst for improvement as time goes by. From the lowest frequency registers on up to beyond normal hearing range, this DAC leaves nothing unexposed in natural form.

To sum up, I had a very positive experience with this DAC using the tube output stage. It was a far greater experience than I could have imagined. A very pleasant surprise to say the least. Once again, that magical presentation which vacuum tubes are known for, is exactly what made this formulated presence so profound and accepting. Just imagine what it will do when it hits prime status. I am very much looking forward to that.







So, the following night, I removed the bad transformer, and now run the signals out from the OPAMP output stage of the DAC using the NE5532 design that ships installed with this DAC.  While I am waiting for the new transformer to arrive, this is a good time to analyze the OPAMP output stage and see what it sounds like.  I have my doubts after hearing the unrestrained music created by the tube stage. Knowing that the OPAMP is nothing special, I am prepared for a lackluster experience by direct comparison.

After a long warm up period playing music in a constant loop, I returned to the room for some further listening sessions, now with the OPAMP stage as the output to the amplifier. For the most part, I repeated the process from the previous night for some fair testing.

Well, all I can say is that i was nowhere nearly as impressed as I was the previous night. I remained patient and gave it time to perhaps gain some ground as time went on. Seems as though that time may be awhile. I just wasn't getting involved with what I heard.

The music seemed flat, there was limited sound-stage, the detection of space around instruments was indeed restricted. It was like having the air sucked out of the room as each song played through. This reminded me of using mid grade components, like that old Pioneer receiver with that fuzzy tuner that just could not lock onto a signal with full strength. This actually sounded like a class D  amplifier in my system, after I spent the night with the ToriiMK3.  

Solid state just doesn't do it for me. It just lacks everything that is vital to the representation of real music. Cold, sterile, and un-involving compared to the experience I had with the tube stage. Folks, the tube output stage is the winner by a large margin!  

Just remember, to be fair, this "solid state" sound can be upgraded, and greatly improved with a high performance HDAM mod.

I doubt that I will ever use this stage much anyway, as the tube stage will always be my favored choice.  I may be a bit unfair here, and perhaps coming off as too harsh regarding the OPAMP stage, but I know what I hear, and it is what I don't hear that becomes the deal breaker for me. I know what I am supposed to be hearing, and how that presence should be conveyed to my senses. That is the part which remains questionable within the OPAMP stage.

Not to diminish it into oblivion, it isn't that bad, just doesn't get my vote. It did do a lot of things right, and for the most part, I gave it a 6 on a scale of 1 to 10 overall. It did have good low frequency extension, solid bass, clear percussion, and a clear midrange. However, the lower midrange seemed thin to me as I did not get that same degree of vibrancy, and full body which the tubes gave me.

I did notice obscurity at the top end. There was critical detail which I noticed masked and very strained, whereas the tube stage would flush these details out like sparkling droplets of rain bouncing from the fluttering leaves in the wind, as sunlight passing through the droplets display a hint of prismatic flair. Without that kind of detailed presence, it is like being in the dark.

I think for most people, the sound of the OPAMP stage would be very accepted by them without any reservation regarding sound quality. But in my domain, with a fully balanced acoustical setting and premium components which make up my system, this is a very easy difference to discern. As someone who is demanding of sound quality to be at it's best, I just can't accept the sterile cold reality of solid state when I can have something that sounds so much better.

There is hope for this downfall though. The future will just have to see what a good HDAM design will do about correcting the negative aspects of the OPAMP stage. In the meantime, I am going to enjoy the fabulous sound quality which captures my attention contently by way of the tube output stage once I install the new transformer. This should be an interesting weekend as I get a second chance with this. As time goes on, it is going to improve in a progressive state of coherence.


Once I spend considerable time evaluating the tube stage with the new toroidal transformer, I shall give updated information concerning my perception of this as the road to transition progresses.

I do not feel the need to spend any more time with the OPAMP stage until I get the chance to upgrade that with something better.

I really am impressed with the potential of this Musical Fidelity X10 tube stage driven by this well engineered DAC design.  My continued focus is upon this preference for quite some time.

To be continued.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 02/15/25 at 11:06:07
What is size of the boards? I am giving this a serious look as the first project for 2026.

Almost pulled the trigger again this morning, then I had a listening session. Off to the wood shop I go ;)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/16/25 at 16:07:36





Okay JB, I knew that you could not resist.

[smiley=lolk.gif]


I think you will be pleased with this. And besides, sounds like you are almost caught up with projects. We can't let that happen!


As for the dimensions:


Kit information:

Main DAC board.    Size 85mm(D) X 60mm(W) X 25mm(H)  *Aprox: 3.25" x 2.25"

Power supply board  Size 80mm(D) X 55mm(W) X 40mm(H)  



Tube Buffer DIY KIT -

Tube Buffer

Characteristics:

1) 2pcs 6N11J .

2) 2pcs Solen cap from France 2.2UF400V. *(NOTE: the 2.2 caps are for use with 12AU7 tubes. My board came with 3.3uf caps as it is set up for use with ECC88 variants such as the 6922.


PLEASE BE AWARE OF THIS!


I believe he was shipping these boards originally with the 2.2uf caps and then updated to the larger 3.3 uf caps. I just know that he informed me as to the 2.2uf being for 12AU7 tubes. (you have to solder a jumper on the back of the board to change this)


3) 4pcs WIMA cap from Germany.

4) Input 12-15v AC.

5) Hi and Low voltage 3 regulators.

6) LED power indicator.


7) Size : 173MM(L) X 83MM (W)X 70MM(H)


*Aprox: 6.7" x 3.25"


8) power input voltage: ～110 or 220V50Hz±10％

9) It has a very high input impedance, of about half a meg [500k ohms], and quite a low output impedance, less than 200 ohms.



Some good advice concerning this kit:

Go to Ebay:

Direct link to hkaudio1 storefront on ebay:

https://www   .ebay   .com/str/hkaudio1?_trksid=p4429486.m3561.l161211


*** YOUR BEST DEAL. Then just buy the base kit including only the DAC and power supply (comes with a EI transformer, switch, cables)


Tube Buffer - 6N11J x 2pcs with Toroidal transformer


$85.00

+ $40.00 shipping

Est. delivery Fri, Feb 28 - Fri, Mar 14


OR, for the full kit without a toroidal transformer (you need this):


24bit/192KHz TUBE DAC DIY KIT - Lampucera1.0 + Lampizator CS8416 + CS4397




You may want to contact seller (Lawrence) and let him know what you want, and also see if he can combine seperate kits in one package for ONE shipping fee. The shipping fees are steep.

Also, make sure that you advise him as to what capacitor size you want and whether you are going to use ECC88 type tubes, or if you prefer 12AU7 tubes. You want to make sure that he builds the kit the way you want it.


Just remember, if you order the full kit version, it does not include a quality toroid transformer for the tube stage. You will need one for (12v 0 12) 110 50 Hz. You will only use the 12v 0 (center tap) leads for tube power supply.

The seller highly recommends good quality copper in oil caps to make this tube stage sound it's best. (3.3 uf) x 2.

 OR

***(2.2uf caps if 12AU7 tubes are used.)

With this Chinese trade situation, you might want to act fast. This kit may not even be available in the near future, or at the very least, it is going to increase in price substantially.



So that should keep you busy.

Have fun!



:D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 02/17/25 at 12:57:27
Keep me busy? Well, if the kit is available this fall and my interest is not wane, it will be pursued. There is an old case for its use.

Just this morning a new project was created from an old China item after failure of finding a suitable 3 inch woofer that would fit in the case. The old woofer has a failed connection of the voice coil and unrepairable, at least in my view. All the replacements that could be found was just a tad to big. Part numbers on the driver just turned up a video of the blue tooth boom box with the woofer being tortured out of it's tuned chamber.
I need a test bench amp. So, the guts of this item will serve the purpose along with some old kiosk speakers. All parts, now in a bin, will mount nicely under the test instrument's shelf. So win...win!


There are probably a dozen or so projects waiting for completion in bins and on shelfs. Some have all the parts and others need further diagnostic work. Priorities will prevail!
Thanks for the info 👍 What is the height of the highest part?
[smiley=peanuts05.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/17/25 at 21:07:14

Hey JB,


The tube stage requires a minimum of 3 inches in height for clearance (barely) if you take in consideration the addition of 3/8" standoffs. That would scrape the tip of the tubes.

Just keep in mind, this tube stage will require upgrades to larger caps, six total in the output stage if you want to extract the most out of this design. That is the two large caps, plus the four 0.22uf caps which replace the WIMA film caps.

Even if you only replace the larger 3.3uf caps, they need to extend off the sides of the card if you choose to buy esoteric caps like the ultra expensive, extremely large MIFLEX (copper foil in oil) capacitors, or have them mounted on the bottom.

It depends on what cap that you upgrade with that will determine the space you actually need.

If your budget allows, the best choice are the copper foil in oil types. The builder highly recommends the Audio-Note caps.


You would need four of these 0.22uf caps, and two of the 3.3uf size. These are going to cost you dearly, but they are among the best.








Tell me your opinion of these capacitors:  





These are listed at the Ali-express website as a special limited time promotional sale.

I look at these this way, IF they are indeed authentic caps from Germany, being real copper in oil caps, then they are absolutely a bargain at this price.

I am leaning towards the gamble of trying these to replace the 3.3uf caps, and use the Jentsen Superior Z caps for the rest. I believe the 3.3uf versions of these shown are around $70.00 (EACH) on sale. The price you see are for 2.2uf caps. (I need to recheck those prices to make sure of this)

Compare that to the cost of the MIFLEX caps which are comparable in design quality, then that is indeed a super bargain if these are legitimate. I think these are more like the Jentzen foil in oil types. I used to have a set of the Jentzen silver in oil caps, but sold them with a set of speakers that I built.

I should have kept those, as they were 3.3uf. They were about one third of the price they go for now back when I bought them. They would be installed in my DAC now if I still had them.


I am seriously considering this gamble. It will be an expensive mistake if these turn out to be counterfeit.

[smiley=icqlite22.png]

Also, with regards to the DAC card: The Toslink capacitor which sits between the Toslink connector, and the coax connector, is one of the necessary upgrades which Mr. Fikus (the designer) says to upgrade to a much larger low ESR capacitor to take the place of the 10uf cap in place now. He says that the signal shape is far more superior once this is done.

They used a smaller cap due to space restrictions. A large cap will not fit in that space. The new cap will need to be installed off the side, or underneath.  Either way, you will need to compensate for that additional space. From what I have read from others who have performed this upgrade, it makes a profound difference in sound quality when using Toslink.  I have ordered a few Rubycon low ESR caps to do this. That will be done next week. (old stock from Japan)


I really wonder if I should risk taking a shot on those (claimed) German copper in oil caps from China??



Has anyone else tried these?



Anyway, I am amazed at just how many things you have going on in that shop! Looks like I'm not the only one who let things pile up demanding my attention. Good to see that you are gaining control. Hey, what else does a retired guy have to do?


A thought came across my mind as I depicted what I might imagine if I were to drive up to your residence. Somehow, I get a feeling this is what I will see.

Should I be scared?


;D










This could be you working in the shop on your favorite project.





Dr. Frankenstein and his greatest challenge!


Or is that JB?


[smiley=icqlite14.png]




Keep up the good work. You are doing a fine job!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/17/25 at 21:31:11



Again, another great price on high quality capacitors, that is IF they are Legitimate.


What about these? Anyone have experience with these?







I wonder how these rate against the Miflex capacitors?


:-?

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/17/25 at 21:54:41

Things are a bit out of my budget range now.  These better be the best thing ever for that price!

I'd hate to find out these are fake knock-offs after shelling out that much cash.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 02/18/25 at 14:36:48

Quote:
Tell me your opinion of these capacitors:  


I would bet the description matches the Fuat-a-cap item. It states pure copper tube. To me that would depic a copper tube on the outside and composition material inside. The last caps you show look like those are wound with copper in oil. My take anyhow.
Why not use a lesser expensive cap and bypass with a smaller value copper wound? Or just bite the bullet and use what you think will be the best.

If you pull in my driveway to a house as you pictured then by all means back right out and foor it out of that area ;D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/18/25 at 19:03:00
If you pull in my driveway to a house as you pictured then by all means back right out and floor it out of that area!

:o


Don't worry, my strange-o-meter would be pegged, telling me to keep moving!


So yes, what you say about the capacitor choices makes good sense.

Here is what I think. You know that there are many fake items being produced in China which look very authentic. I have always had success purchasing from shops in China direct from Ali Express with zero problems. I have heard many horror stories about rare DAC chips and the sort being counterfeit knock-offs, exposed by experienced builders. So I am very cautious, yet I want a good deal when I can get it. I guess some times we just have to take a chance.

Only a few people that read this thread will actually speak up and offer any worthy information concerning this ( that is why I asked ), but at least you did, and I thank you for the answer. These capacitors are very expensive. I need to make the right choice, the first time. There is no room for a bad choice here, especially if I get ripped off with a fake component. That is my main concern. I wanted to know if anyone had any information concerning this factor. The US and European dealers are too greedy with their mark-up process. We even take a big chance buying on E-bay. These crooks are everywhere.

So I have this idea which I believe makes sense about quality capacitors for audio. Give me your perspective to see if you agree. If not, then why?

My idea is this, and I believe this was stated in your response to back up my theory. The expensive copper foil in oil esoteric caps are most beneficial with high frequencies in my thought approach, where they are perfect as bypass capacitors along the legs of the main caps which provide the full capacitance needed by the circuit. So rather than pay a huge price for let's say a 3.3uf esoteric cap which would be hundreds of dollars per cap when we consider Jupiter copper foil in wax types, or the MIFLEX offerings which are most likely the best choice out there (debatable of course), how about the following idea?

For the capacitance required, buy a good quality MKP cap such as the highly favored Jantzen Superior Z caps (very reasonable priced, local purchase, and very favorable by audiophiles). THEN, put the money where it counts the most in a high-end top quality bypass cap in the 0.10uf range.  Place these bypass caps along the legs of each and every large cap that is upgraded in the tube output stage.

The small bypass caps are still very expensive, but far less than the full size capacitance needed. I have thought about old stock Sprauge Vitamin-Q's for this, and also the Dueland's, or perhaps the MIFLEX in the 0.10uf range. I really think that a premium copper foil in oil type will provide the best results for my DAC when used this way. At least that is the goal. The Jupiter copper/wax caps are way out of my price range, even with the 0.10uf range. I will not pay that much for any reason, period.


The cost of Audio-Note caps are way out of my range. I will leave those for guys with deeper pockets than I have. As for the German Fuat-a-cap offering, these are a good price, but after reading the reviews on them, they are considered substandard to the Mundorf copper in oil caps.

Those German Fuat-a-cap designs are as you said. A copper tube with copper lead-outs. However, the interior method is by way of lamination's sprayed with a copper layering, much like a crystalized effect. Not quite the same as a pure foil in oil design, but with close similarities in which a bargain priced copper oil cap can be had. I am sure they have strong potential, but I am not convinced about them as of yet.

I originally was considering the Mundorf's, but Lawrence (dealer for the DAC) said that he did not like them nearly as much as the much better Audio-Note caps, which stands in good reason. Since these German caps from China are said to be less favorable than the Mundorf's, this would be going backwards.  I might as well buy the Mundorf's instead of the German caps from China. Those two offerings are out of consideration.

So that sent me off into a fact finding mission to explore other possibilities without breaking the bank. If I can find a choice between the Mundorf quality, and something better, without exceeding my budget, that is my price/performance point that I desire.

If I bought all six of these caps, PLUS the bypass caps, at the cost of what MIFLEX caps go for, this would be close to a couple of grand! That is NOT within my budget for audio! I don't have to have the best. I just want a finished product that I will be pleased with, and never feel the need to upgrade again (hopefully).

I absolutely want to use copper foil in oil caps for the bypass caps for certain. If I am correct, that is where money is best spent for the best overall gain. If anyone has a better suggestion by means of actual experience, then by all means, let me hear about it. I don't care what some paid reviewer said, I want honest real opinions based upon experience.


Yes, it really comes down to experimentation, trial, and error. Too bad I don't have an endless stream of cash to keep buying esoteric jewels, especially when I may never use the extra ones. I have better uses for my finances. My money better suits me in investments, not toys. This is why I quit building expensive muscle cars long ago. A real waste of money with complete depreciation for the most part. Besides, I will not pay the ridiculous cost of insurance on a 1200 HP Shelby Mustang, or a Dodge Challenger SRT.

So, with that said, am I correct about my assumption using the best quality in ONLY the bypass caps? That is, will that give me the majority of the gain I would get from using expensive esoteric caps? This is what I need to base my decision upon.

I know, tough questions, but very important to me. I want to do this right, the first time if possible. The right decision is based upon logic, and actual experience. I have used the Mundorf Supreme oil caps before, as well as the Danish Jensen silver in oil types for speakers. I wasn't impressed enough to actually consider them worth the exorbitant cost factor. The differences compared to a high quality MKP cap to me were minuscule, hardly worth the investment. They do sound nice, but I question their true value.

I have read many reviews concerning these comparisons, but you know, people tend to exaggerate the outcome based upon the pure cost of an esoteric offering, versus something more affordable that still is designed with absolute quality standards in mind. There is a much higher profit potential with those esoteric offerings. That is where the true interest is when marketing comes into play. Money talks, BS walks, and in between, the consumer got caught up in it.

I noticed that Steve employed the high-end MIFLEX capacitors in the Zrock3 as shown in the example item on the site revealing the inside. I do hope for the cost of this device, and by paying that much extra for cap upgrades, that my unit indeed has these caps installed. If that is the case (and I did order the cap upgrade), then I can see the price of the unit being justified. I just hope the extra cost is worth it, and I mean by a substantial margin. I am guessing by the current rate of units being built, that I may perhaps get mine within sometime next month. Then my time with that unit after a long burn-in period will be on the evaluation scrutinization platform to judge it's true value for what I expect out of it.

I am still considering my options. I want to feel confident within my choice and not be disappointed if that is possible.

Thanks for the reply JB.

Hope your projects are what you expected after all that work. Is that Sheldon DAC sounding better now with those new caps, and a fair amount of burn-in time?  I am interested in hearing that design.

Later.



Wile E Coyote has to research his ACME supply.


[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/18/25 at 22:04:01
I have gotten a lot of good sounding stuff from China, but carefully, going with sellers with good ratings and researching the things well before buying, including warranty especially on tubes. Also lots of good stuff from the US, Canada, and English sellers for parts. I look around every so often and tend to stock up on sales, but decent prices from partsconnexion, sonic craft, and hificollective, the latter my fav these days since they have a great variety of vetted things... The partsconnexion site has a lot too, but is for me horrible to browse for things since it was "upgraded," so I tend to not go there anymore... why get angry every time I look for stuff when I can avoid that! Sonic craft is good, Jeff knowing a lot, but his vetting makes for more limited choices... and several others, but I tend to make bigger orders when I get to it so that shipping has less impact, sometimes causing me to prefer more selection.

Right now you can get Miflex caps (and others) from hificollective in England for similar prices as you found on Ali. That was the first place I found and bought Miflex KPCU, KPAL. and KFPM, maybe 2018? And especially when the dollar is strong they have good prices with relatively fast shipping.

I am working on my Musical Paradise DAC lately, similar concept to yours, and it is powerful in presenting changes with its pretty great design... Caps and tubes are mostly what I have explored, and the composite caps I am using to find the right value and synergy are made up of those I have around. From lots of years of modifying things, I have a pretty good supply of favorite parts, wires and tubes.

I have found consistantly that making up my own composite caps can result in better sound than any of the good caps I have tried on their own, and not bypassed by sound. Similar as JBZ suggests, starting with a decent base cap and bypassing with more musical and complete caps has worked well for me, over time with lots of combinations giving really good results. And it is not just the caps used, which I find can be similar to reviews, but you can't define synergy with tech specs or based on the impressions of others... for me, synergy in pulling all the balances of balances is the final determinant for the real magic. Also to me, value is often sorely overlooked, a little heavier value having a little heavier sound, and too little value can get too thin, and each effects the density, dynamic and spectral balances, etc. So I am listening for value as an aspect of the spectral range, density, dynamics, fine detail complexity, space, immediacy... in a resolving system/room, all of which powerfully influenced by caps, and the ultimate cap value.

Then, like it sounds with your budding DAC, here, tubes powerfully effect the output equation... With mine allowing lots of 6 and 12V tubes, with cap sets, for me, that is a lot to put together for the most optimal sound.

This DAC is designed for a fairly powerful signal, and as my system becomes more resolved and fast, it takes less push to make it sound great, so I finally wanted to reduce the power to the tubes a little. With the advice of the designer, I took off and shorted across the connections for one of 4 zener diodes, reducing the voltage to the tubes some and that helped. Also bypassing the film cap on the power supply board has helped with speed, and density with space. More experiments to come, but getting really good.

Since you are where I was a few months ago with your new DAC of similar concept, and since I have explored lots of caps, and combinations for quite a few years, I will go into some detail. Not that optimal caps will be the same for you, but what I have learned might be useful as you find your sound.

I have tried Jantzen Superiors as base caps in many places over time, for me, consistently nicely balanced caps that are just a little too lackluster for me even with careful bypassing. Overall, I have preferred their silver version, but I typically like others better, the silvers clearer and more dynamic by a bit, but sometimes tending a little over-stated in expression of the same basic sound for me.

But they are decent caps, and I had some around. My DAC calling for 1.5 uF up to about 10 on the zero negative feedback tube output stage (no opamps), I started with the stock 6.8s bypassed, then 3.3s bypassed, and finally preferred 1.5s with bypasses (I did not have any 2.2s). The bigger caps were compelling, but for my setting, too dense, full and slow.

This DAC has four outputs paths, where you can use all four for balanced out and the most powerful sound, or two out for single ended, with a less dense, and a less expensive sound! And the tubes used totally effect my final cap choices, some of each warmer and fuller, some faster and more open, some more powerful and denser, and some leaner and more open and complex. I am tending to prefer the powerful sound (in this design) of E88CCs, or, more often, once adjusted for, I like the milder more spacious sound of 6CG7s. Those two types (along with 6SN7s with adapters), seem to work well with the same caps, at least along with tuning the many balances with my pre-stage's gains and tubes to find the best sound with each tube.

Still exploring, but I will put in a few pics from the many iterations I have tried, pointing to the possibility that you may be like me and end up needing to explore caps and cap combinations some to find your favored sound.

The designer of this DAC prefers 2.2uF VHAudio Odams, which I can understand having compared them to Miflex Copper Oils and finding the sound more family than not. If I recall correctly, as coupling caps in my Torii IV, the Vcaps were a little more dense and dynamic, but still complex and rich, especially with a small Mallory 150 bypass, and the Miflex a little more relaxed, spacious, and harmonically complex...but both really good to me. Long time ago, but I was impressed how they were similar variations in shades of what I like in nice caps. Still the Miflex stayed in for me.

The first pic I was exploring balanced outputs, a 1.5 Superior, 0.33 Miflex Copper (oil on one side of the balanced signal, and foil the other), and two more Miflex oils, 0.047, and 0.022 bypassed by a Mallory 150 0.0022...a conglomerate value ±1.9. I liked it, but finally found the value a little high for the balances I need across recordings styles... a little too balanced toward full, slow and bassy for me in this particular use and system/room. Also, though after the powerful signal from the four tube/cap paths it took some time to really hear the milder two paths out, I ended up preferring the latter.





After lots of caps and combinations, I was pretty well settled with the following, a Mundorf Aluminum Oil Evo 1.5, also an OK base cap, but remembering them as more lively and spacious than the Superiors. With this DAC tending toward density and a little slowish warm fullness (a little overly euphonic for me) I thought the Mundorf could be a better base and it was in my setting. This Mundorf is pretty good at complexity and speed, though a little lean on its own, and less rich than I like. So I warmed them up with very clear, but also richer, denser and smoother 0.1 Jenson copper oils, and on top of them, a harmonically rich Miflex Oil 0.022 with a 0.022 Mallory 150 to help the very fine detail complexity and immediacy.

After a while, the DAC still a little slow and warm for me, I decided to try, popular with this DAC, Duelund bypasses, my fav of those the tinned coppers having more lively and textured sound than the others. Still I tend not to love these Duelund bypasses, sounding a little too made, and not born... doing all the right stuff if looked at intellectually, but somehow not quite natural to me. But in this case, it was pretty good, the powerful and smooth clarity of the Duelund, with the help of other bypasses to bring out more complexity... the combination acted like a well balanced super tweeter, increasing the presence of space and immediacy top to bottom, a tricky balance with cap combinations for me, pulling space and leading edges down into the bass without over-concentrating detail upper-mids up:





The next cap trial pic was this morning after upgrading some of the stock Mogami cables in my 2010 Zstage (serial #002), with cables I made of UPOCC silver and UPOCC silver-gold wires with oversized pure copper shields, and those having settled for a few days. At the same time, I added the Zstage in with my DAC, CSP3+, and ZRock2+ on a 4 outlet box I made with a slow blow 3 amp Swiss Digital Fuse Box in front of all four. On top of the cables, the Zstage fuse replaced with a copper slug, even with two, to me, decent, but not great Mogamis still in there, the Zstage became notably faster, denser, more complex... pretty much more of all it was. This made the Duelund cap start to show the traits I do not prefer... a little too focussed, powerful, and a little rolled off... and the Zstage improvements in speed and resolution likely making the Duelund unnecessary. Also with the Zstage clarity and speed punched up some, I thought it might carry and resolve the fuller/denser sound from a little higher value output caps. But, for me, it ended up a little too bass balanced and a little too oily... close, but a little too full and slow especially lower down. This set was a 1.5 Mundorf, 0.33 Miflex oil, 0.022 Miflex oil, and 0.0022 Mallory.





Now, liking the rich complexity the Miflex oils add to this very particular sound (if not overvalued, thickening the sound too much and masking space and harmonic complexity), I am using 1.5 Mundorf Aluminum EVO Oil, 0.1 Miflex Copper Oil which already had a 0.001 Mallory on it, and 0.022 Miflex Copper Oil with a 0.002 Mallory 150. We'll see how this settles across recordings, but the balances of many balances are getting really good on first impressions. Still, once close, I always need time to tune in changes, so can't say yet, but on the last full bodied solo piano recording, it was beautiful, revealing and balancing all the things I listen for... to a point where the music first caught me in awe, then captivated me, overwhelming tuning analysis.





I will likely bypass some of the big power supply caps next to further speed it up, and I too am looking at Wimas in this DAC. I can't remember, but I think it was in my Torii 3, one of the 1st batch Steve made, and I think he was using Wimas for coupling caps??? I ended up back then with Jupiter Coppers for quite a while, then preferring the clearer, less full Jupiter HTs in my setting. I thought the Wimas were decent, but a little plastic sounding by comparison, so I can imagine changing at least some them in this DAC will be a good move!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/19/25 at 00:21:25
WOW Will, I asked for a gold coin and I got the whole rainbow with the pot of gold at the end of it!

[smiley=dankk2.gif]

That was way more information than I ever expected to get, and I can't thank you enough. This is exactly what I was wanting to see. I knew someone around here had to have been down this road before. I will be looking up to you for inspiration on this DAC build since you have a great deal of experience with building one yourself. You and JB are very knowledgable about this.  And I have to say, that is one fine looking DAC you have built.



With what you have put into it, and with very careful attention to detail and quality, that design must sound absolutely fabulous to say the least. I can only hope mine will sound even close to what you have there. I can see that you have a fortune tied up into it, but you certainly have something special. Good job on your DAC build! I know that you are rewarded to the fullest degree by it. That makes it all worth it. I am truly amazed by this build of yours.

I will have to read the details over again that you wrote. There is a sea of valuable information in your post. I think you have cleared many things up for me. Between you and JB, I know that you guys are always well informed DAC builders.

So, I am going to go up and listen tonight for awhile just to hear how this new DAC sounds as it is starting to burn in and stabilize a bit. I can already hear things improving as it gets some time on it. I will come back later and read your post again more carefully. My head was sort of spinning when I scanned through and saw what you put into your DAC build.

This really will help me in my decisions, and it does make a difference.

Before I saw your post, I was researching some ideas on E-bay to see what old stock parts might be available at a decent price. I put a list together for some items I am interested in that I just may purchase. I believe these items are very good for obtaining my goal, and at a very reasonable price. The cost of these parts are much less than what I was expecting to pay. I can always try something else if not satisfied. It seems that this is the name of the game when designing audio components. As you clearly explained, that can be an extensive journey finding that perfect combination. But we have to start somewhere and just see where things go.

I will post what I found later on, maybe tomorrow. If you don't mind, take a look at what my choices include once I post this, and give me an idea as to how you think these upgrades might work out for my DAC. I know that these parts will take the quality of my DAC up several notches, but I also know that it won't be anything as supreme as to what you have built. That doesn't mean I can't expand upon the design later down the road. You have proven that it takes time, patience, and very careful listening to truly understand what comes together in perfect harmony. And of course, there is that LONG break-in period. You just can't get passed that anytime soon.

Alright, I will get back to this later on. If you have any advice to add, feel free to do so. Your advice is valuable.

Thanks again Will,

Chat later.

[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/19/25 at 00:54:09
Hey RPS. You are surely welcome. I was leading up to putting similar on the Musical Paradise DAC thread started by Gilf, but my past explorations fitting so closely with your questions, and my new DAC likely based in part on Lampizator design and concept too, I thought I should start writing here in hopes my experiences might help you get where you want to go with more ease.

Importantly, I did not build this DAC. Musical Paradise is a company that I believe Garry Huang created. He is in Canada, and has his gear built in China. Check out his site, and the few discussions and videos out there on his DACs. I think you will like them, his really well thought through and evolving modular designs appealing in design considerations, modifiability, and costs!

I have built a few simple things, but more, I have explored modifying a lot... progressively, part by part much of the time, and if it did not help in balanced ways, try another. Over time, using tech considerations, but mostly by sound, this taught me a lot. Finally I had basically rebuilt my already pretty amazing point-to-point Decware things, found ways to make great cables, learned to tune my speakers, and have explored bringing a number of circuit board based components into more complete and musical levels. A gradual adventure over lots of years that now mostly keeps me from buying many new things, and makes used things with "good bones" fun projects. Everything tuned to a pretty high level, and few weak links, pretty nice pieces I do buy have all needed to be notably refined so far in order for them to fit into this complex. I love finding new levels of musical immersion and the beautiful complexes of the paths of discovery to get there.

I look forward to your further explorations with your new DAC, and will be glad to look over your lists and offer opinions if I can!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 02/19/25 at 09:58:02
I was thinking when responding to your question RPS that it would be great if Will chimed in here. Will is a cap master in my view. He has vast experience with all types and those individual signatures. An artist with a well used pallet of colors working on a fine painting.. Speaking of colors, the appearance and composition of materials used in our gear's circuitry does closely resemble what signature of sound can be expected; gold buttery and mellow, copper warm and soft, tin bright and thin, silver sharp and edgy and so forth.

Will you just about sealed the deal for me. I am weakening to just ordering a new DAC such as yours or RPSs.

I've come a long way digging myself out of a mess of clutter to a point of efficiency in my domain. Finished a couple more projects the last couple of days. The tech shop vinly cleaning center set up and tweaking needs completed. Wood working is just dependant on weather. Still bitter cold here.

Stoke's DAC has better detail since the new cap install. Maybe to much! I only have 50 hours on it, so too early for judgment. It does need new bypass film caps on the B+ power supply. The right channel film cap does reside close to the mosfet heat sink. A 120hz buzz in the right channel does mean it most likely broken down over the years. This DAC, it's designer(not me), and associates helped reinforce my belief that the power fed into our circuits is as important as the room we use for listening.

The Heatkit SA-2 used in the wood shop has been moved to the tech shop with a decent set of bookshelf speakers. I've been listening to it being fed by the Cambridge streamer via the ZenHead. The sound is very good and distracting at times. On my second 9 volt battery in the ZenHead.

Here is a couple pics of the latest Frankenstein project completed with boom box parts and retail plastic packaging.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/19/25 at 19:37:52


Will,

Here are a few intersting items that I am prepared to buy now if you think these would be a good choice to experiment with. These are claimed to be some of the best tone caps ever produced ? *(Sprauge Vitamin Q)

At these prices, I figuire they are worth a shot.

So please examine these and let me know if I am wasting money on these.

I have a feeling that they may be beneficial.











Or these old stock Russian PIO military capacitors.









Let me know what you think. If you think these are a good choice, then I shall order them.


Thanks.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/19/25 at 21:40:05



I found this offer at Alliexpress for the normally very expensive AudioNote Caps.

I really wonder if these are fake with relabeling?

This price seems to be too good to be true!

If these are actually authentic, this offer is a huge steal.

$65.00 EACH for 3.3uf copper foil in oil high end audiophile capacitors with pure silver lead-outs is what they are supposed to be if the REAL thing.

I want to order these right now if I knew for sure they are authentic. I doubt there is no way to be absolutely sure without tearing one apart.


Not sure what to do here. These are the 3.3uf caps that I want, and I am fine with that price. They are worthless if they are counterfeit.


[smiley=icqlite19.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/19/25 at 21:56:36


I ordered this set of matched Amperex 6dj8 tubes for my DAC today. These tubes should sweeten the sound a bit.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/19/25 at 22:09:24


I am very interested in buying this old stock (new) matched set of 6Bz7/6BQ7a tubes.

They say they are compatible as a replacement for ECC88 tubes, but they also have higher voltage requirements than what a 6922 tube has. (from what information I have read) That depends upon the design of my DAC as to whether or not these are actually compatible from what I can tell.

I am not sure yet about that. If I knew for sure these would work, then I would like to try them at this low price.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/19/25 at 22:14:49


Just for information to show the design of my DAC tube stage, here is the schematic for one channel shown.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/19/25 at 22:39:44


These caps also seem to be good bargains for experimenting with.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/19/25 at 22:51:02


This is what HIFIcollective sells the AudioNote  3.3uf copper foil in oil caps for:





Not a bad price for this quality of capacitor.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Dominick on 02/20/25 at 11:59:38
Red Pill….my capacitor journey started with modifying The resistors and capacitors on my ERR speakers. The journey started by resurrecting an old thread in the ER or section to achieve better sound out of my speakers. The Decware speaker builder Bob Ziegler (Ziggy) gave me the initial push to start my research and exploring. It was Wiill Who then gave me amazing advice on the sound signatures of different capacitors and help me get to a phenomenal place with my towers.  I have been able to extract so much more detail then from stock which was utterly mine blowing once the capacitors started break in.  I went with the Mifkex KPCU-01 3.3 as the mains, and then added another Miflex KPCU as the first bypass, and then a Duelund as the second bypass through Will’s  guidance.  At first I didn’t think the Duelund’s  were necessary… But once I heard them I couldn’t go back. They added enough finer detail and sped up the signal enough to give me a Nice balance throughout the frequency range.  While  I know this is a DAC  application, I figured I would offer up my input.

In a separate application they changed out the capacitor on my pinnacle bookshelf speakers from a cheap RadioShack capacitor to a Jansen Superior Z-Cap.  And once again with Will‘s guidance made the upgrade worthwhile.

A long time ago Will recommended the humble hi-fi as a starting point to help gather information going to pass your choices in SOUND signatures. It was a good read as a reference point.

https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Keep us posted on your audio capacitor journey and look forward to hear what you decide on as per your recent post.

Here are the threads I was posting about on my capacitor journey…so feel free to give a read at your leisure.

The first link was a  was a thread that I resurrected from years past….So I would scrub through thread going backwards to find where I picked up.

the second link is a bit older but still both a very good read


https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1278958959

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1635862716

the second link is a bit older but still both a very good read.


Dom

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/20/25 at 16:33:03
JB.

I have found power to be really important too, feeding the gear, and power supplies. It started pretty good for clarity here, but I had variable voltage from ±119-123 over periods, and that was influential enough with my Decware tube sound that adjusting the system became like chasing a ghost. Higher voltage, a more dense, dark and full sound, and lower, leaner, more open, more complex. That is why I finally got a used PSAudio P5, good at regulating voltage and so many liking "it's sound." I was not one of the latter, a stickler, but finding it veiled, slowish, and colored, finally having to make a special fast and clean power cord, upgrade receptacles, and find the just so feet for the beast, some dulling the sound and some tightening and opening it more. It was finally a break through in my system development to be able to have stable voltage adjustment to tune the system sound, but also phase, the incremental phase adjustment in the P5 a pretty useful tuner for balancing spaciousness versus density to tastes. It is still a touch veiled to me, but relatively fast and transparent, and the advantages outweigh.

Some of my first adjustments inside electronic gear were when I started bypassing the power supplies of my CSP3 and MKIV Torii. It was shocking how much the cap sound effect on the whole was so similar with power supply bypasses compared to the same cap type in the signal path. It took years, but after a while it got sort of normal, basically not differentiating the power supply from the signal path when doing modifications. Makes sense having so much ability to change things up with rectifiers and transformers, but it is the same with wires, resistors, and caps... Which is signal and which is power? Seems they are one finally! Anyway, it is clear from my experience how important the wall power and power supply are to the sound, influencing for better or worse, everything beyond.


I have thought similarly about foot material as you illustrate with metal colors, feet tending to sound like what they are made of, and design making the materials used better or worse for music. Relative to wires, I do hear notable differences from various metals, weight/gauges and plating, and I like to use most all of them in gear, cables, and receptacles. On plated AC ends and receptacles, I work to find ones with pretty pure copper base metal and pure plating, and for ICs, I think most all I use have different flavors of pure silver for the connections except a few with rhodium plate on good copper. Hearing pretty big differences early on with better quality, higher purity wires, I have not explored lesser wires much, those mostly showing up from replacing wires in gear with more resolving and faster ones.

For raw copper and silver wires, I found soft annealed 999 can really be quite good, and UPOCC better, to me, the most resolving, liquid and sweet. Within this, I have tried a bunch of silver wires, all high purity, some harder annealed, some soft, some Ohno cast continuous... and even different UPOCC silvers made to different standards sound different, not to mention dielectric, shield proximity, and gauge, all I think having a pretty notable influences. I think I get the negative silver bias, some of these wires, like Jupiter, being on the hardish side for me, and some plated silver wires I have heard hard sounding, but with nicer materials and processes for sound, I would call the silver I use clarifying and fast, and not sharp or edgy.

I like blends though ultimately. I do use Milspec silver on copper, blending smaller gauges to make up the end gauge for some power cables I make, and with good design, they can be really good, but suspect those wires could be too rigid sounding for ICs and probably speaker cables too. The ICs and speaker cables I make are all blends of un-plated wires. The speaker cables have NOS WE tinned copper, and pure soft annealed silver and copper in air. And in ICs I usually mix UPOCC silver/gold with a thinner silver wire to liven it up on the signal side, a little UPOCC copper mixed with UPOCC silver on the return side ... all by sound.


I have played a fair bit with caps, resistors, wires and tubes, but with the great mysteries of how electrons work with the many things that make up power, components, cables, speakers... As things get more resolved and well balanced especially, I am perpetually amazed at how literally every thing effects all else, presenting the subtleties of energetic interactions with so many materials and designs... each part and wire its own design and materials, it gets vast fast. Beyond ever developing perception and discernment skills, to me this helps explain the great challenges of refining all the many balances together... Daily I am shown how much more there is to learn. So I do not feel like a cap master at all, more an early explorer.


Still in the learning stages of this DAC, I don't want to imply I have gotten "there," or sorted it out enough to feel fully confident in recommending it.... But I am always reticent about recommendations, so many variables in all systems. And I am going for pretty demanding sound characteristics here, needing the system to make most everything beautiful and resolved and fast across recordings, so until I have explored most aspects of a new piece of gear, I am slow to settle into "knowing" it enough to talk articulately about it.

With this DAC I could always get compelling sound, even new, but to pull really good sound from most recordings was less easy until the DAC got more fully burnt in, lack of burnin reflected strongly in the quite notable influences from adjusting tubes and caps, and making finding preferences with so many tube and cap possibilities trickier. So finally approaching a sound I am after across most recordings is a relief. I have not AB'd my longtime reference DAC yet, but as this one continues to refine, and I continue to adjust it, and to it, it is getting really good in this setting... likely new territory that I am already getting used to having been playing it so much as I learn it over a few months. More to come in finding the deeper balances, but it seems I am getting closer and closer to not having things stick out at me as a little off balanced or slow, while the potential tube and cap richness from the output stage wakes up with more refinement of fine detail complexity and speed... creating a nice harmonic sweetening that sounds like music, subtly euphonic, but not overly affected in euphonic qualities, rich complexity that is still lively... pretty real sounding to me.

Complicating the analysis though, these are things I have been working to bring out of all my gear, so it is not all the DAC. But the process does imply that this DAC is coming up to the rest and adding its own beauty. Right now, four tuning tools between my DAC and amp, all are modified toward pretty much the same resolution of very fine detail, and speed, spectral and dynamic balances: the DAC out, to a ZRock2+, to a ZStage+, to a box that adjusts baffle step for speakers and introduces some pretty nice harmonics as a choice, in my case, if used, barely on but a pretty nice touch, to a CSP3+, then the amp. And before that, on the digital side my older Mac Mini with a super trimmed OS for music, Amarra player software, an external drive on the firewire buss, so separate from the USB, feeding a Singxer SU1+ USB bridge, then 12S into the DAC, and all HDMI type cables I have tried sound different. So lots supporting the DAC.

This morning, I was getting a really quiet fuzzy sound, trouble shooting illustrating how much trouble this many stages can be. It turned out to be the rectifier in the CSP3, the first I have had fail in many years, and a bummer, an old Telefunken RGN 1064. But, 1st check in the process, the DAC new, I ran it straight to the amp, and all good. Crosschecking DAC/amp only sound without pre stages was something I had done when I was doing lots of mods regularly in my gear. I was getting ready to do this with this new DAC to check that I was staying on track in sound balances as I adjust the DAC, and this forced it.

The DAC is good on its own, but also made me realize just how influential my pre stages have become for my sound needs. I knew I was dependent on quality gain tuning, each pre stage tuned similarly for resolution, speeds and musicality I need, but also, each with their own special influences, making the whole more complex and rich. For me, this once again blows old-school "purist" theory. There is some sense of purity without, but another sense of purity with all this tuned up gear. Funny, testing this morning, I went to adjust the R/L pots on the CSP3+, but no CSP3 in the blend, I could not compensate for minor tube differences like I often do.

For me, setting optimal gain levels for each component's best sound, the gain on the ZRock is usually just above unity, but the CSP and Zstage have been on the higher voltage side, and each adding a bit to the next, I have a pretty strong signal going into the amp, when not over or under done, enhancing spacious resolution, dynamics, density, lucidity, and weight. Taking them all out of the blend, as I am listening now, it is a great sound, similar everything, but it took turning up the amp a fair bit. It is a relief, that the DAC tuning is on track, this no-pre stage sound close on various recordings styles. But the signal shows less voltage and tubes, so all things are more relaxed and a little less dynamic and smooth, but still fast, resolved, and musical with good harmonics. Tempting with this DAC having what can be a pretty transparent tube output, but on the whole, I still prefer it with all those stages, set just so, the whole bigger, deeper, smoother, more lucid and dynamic, while being more tunable  in all things, including soundstage... But again, I have done a fair bit to optimize power, wires, caps, resistors, connectors, etc for each pre stage, as well as all the cables, tube combinations..... with cleaner parts and wires we can get these days, and careful tuning, I find a relatively "pure" sound is possible with a lot of components working together to get it.

That said, I was a little worried about adding yet another tube stage with this DAC, but having listened to it alone, I think it is getting good in resolving and musical ways, and the output stage is clearly a big part of its thoughtful design and sound. Once fully tuned, I think I could probably love both ways, with pre stages, without, or perhaps with less of them... we'll see.

I love it how a new piece, especially one this tunable, and therefore potentially challenging for me, can make me look at and adjust the others, bringing up the balances of the whole.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/20/25 at 16:34:20
Good to hear from you Dom, and how good your experiments have come out and held up for you!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/20/25 at 16:35:29
RPS... I am thinking on those many things you have put up, will answer as best I can soon.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/20/25 at 17:56:33


Between sifting through all of these possibilities, and then with my mind focused deeply within the current technological breakthrough announced yesterday by Microsoft, I am a bit adrift within my thought process right now.

The data I learned about the current advancements in technology as of this moment are frightening in regards to the speculation where AI, and the power of computing are going in the very near future. This absolutely will play a vital role in how humans live their lives. The future is now, and what we always knew as reality, is now past, soon to be in the archives of the dark ages.

Microsoft has been investing vast amounts of money into the research and development of this technology for at least twenty years, to where about a year ago, they created the first working model which uses "quibits" for computing power based upon quantum computing powered by a NEW kind of matter: topological superconductors.


I am talking about Majorana 1, the world’s first quantum processor powered by topological qubits, just announced as a reality in it's infancy. They have a working model now which currently works with only around 10 qubits as of today. However, the expected exponential growth of this "new" *(fourth state of matter), will advance to millions of quibits within two years!

That is like a rate of growth going from your kid's "Speak-And-Spell" (pull the string to hear what the cow says) on to modern super computer advancement using now obsolete "linear" technology, while advancing at this rate of growth overnight by comparison. This makes "linear" computing a thing of the past, with zero relevance to future computing power and high speed accuracy. The new (Topology) superconductors are very much a reality today. AI will be (or is) powered by it.

Yes, the rules of physics have been shattered. We now have another state of matter in which to build advanced technology upon. If you dare take a stroll down this rabbit hole, then be prepared for some extreme mind altering enlightenment as to what lies ahead in your children's future. If this is not your wake up call, then perhaps mankind's subservient role will be best played out with bliss ignorance in a state of numbing serenity.


I speculated for the last thirty or so years that this would be eventually possible. I just hoped that it would not be in my lifetime. I have to wonder about the reality of "alien technology" and the possibility of that being the forefront of this rapid advancement.  It is like we found the secret room which contained all of the knowledge in the universe,with the best minds analyzing this data, while science builds upon that newfound data at exponential rates of progress to feed the machine which controls us.





And all of this is what will propel AI into a state of being which mankind will lose control within our demented sense of advancement. You must consider that our current state of AI has the ability to advance it's ability to "learn" every TWELVE hours, in regards to what the most intelligent human being on earth can learn in FIVE years! And it has the ability to think, and reason.  That is what scares the hell out of me. This can't be good for our future well being at all. Suddenly, that fictional creation of "Skynet" depicted in the Terminator movies doesn't seem so futuristic and out of reach. We are already within the midst of it.

Ironically, "Skynet" just happens to be the name of a U.S. National Security Agency surveillance program in existence today.  Be careful, Big Brother is watching your every move.


"Building the world’s first fault-tolerant prototype (FTP) based on topological qubits: Microsoft is on track to build an FTP of a scalable quantum computer—in years, not decades—as part of the final phase of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Underexplored Systems for Utility-Scale Quantum Computing (US2QC) program."


Have you really examined with full comprehension that of "Groc 3", which is being rapidly advanced as we watch the clock go by?  Take a look at that situation and tell me that all is well?

We are going to see rapid, huge advancements within technology before the end of this decade. That technology will make our current state look like the year 1930 by comparison. Whoever holds all the cards maintains dominance within the game.

No longer will human action control the "finger" upon the red button of nuclear pre-emptive strike. That "finger" will be AI based, making the "best" decision for all of us.


Well that certainly gives you something to think about as you sip your coffee! I am aware, are you?


[smiley=icqlite16.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/20/25 at 20:00:16


On that note, the feedback here is really stepping up into very interesting territory. Just within the last couple of days, this thread has provided extremely valuable information in regards to electronic "fine tuning". If someone really reads this data closely, and actually "understands" the true depth of it, then the reader should feel rewarded with priceless knowledge, that stemming from vast experimentation which Will has reflected upon from his path of observation.

I have to say Will, you are truly an inspiration to those who have so many questions, and want to know what you have learned over the years.  I doubt that several semesters of electronic courses would offer anything close to the important facts which you have revealed in the last few posts. They simply do not go that deep into things. I doubt those instructors have that degree of experience and knowledge anyway.


I understand your hesitation in regards to offering advice to other's who may want to emulate your own findings. It really is impossible to know the outcome of something without actually having first hand experience with any certain project.  What is right for your DAC, is not necessarily the thing that works best in my DAC, or any other design for that matter. So when the smoke clears, we are left standing with the realization that each of our journey's must be explored independently for best results.

I look at it this way, everyone has their own "ideal" situation where they have goals going in directions that are tangent to another's goals.  When a person finds that perfect sound in their mind, someone else may find that "sound" nowhere close to what they find perfect. So I guess it all goes back to that basic understanding. We all have our preferences, and we must find that which pleases us most. Things just are not that simple in life. Audio is no exception.

I realize that the only way for me to find my "perfect" level of acceptance, is to put the time and effort it requires into this if I really want to find the best solution. I simply ask about components and their general worthiness based upon actual experimentation. I would never expect you or anyone else to give me the bottom line as to what is best in my situation.

Everything we do in our audio systems is unique from one listener to another. The room acoustical factor alone plays a significant part of that outcome. Even if you and I had the exact same DAC, or amplifier for that matter, we would each have completely different outcomes as to how we hear our systems by comparison. No two rooms are the same, not even close. That holds true to the sound created within these vastly different environments.

What I have learned from your experiences is something that has re-aligned my thought process when it comes to audio circuits. Not that I didn't understand the overall perspective of your findings, but that I never really put that much thought into such in-depth exploration, especially when it comes to capacitors, and the role of delicate frequency balance which they become tools for fine tuning. You certainly have taken this approach much further than anything I have seen in the past.  Most guys just buy the most expensive cap on the market, throw it in expecting it to be the "end all" of sonic improvement and balance. We can see that this is hardly the case. Too bad it isn't that easy.

Sometimes another person has to open the door for you to find the beginning of your path.  I would say that you have opened a very big door here, one that leads to a library of technical information which we all can benefit from.

I already feel that you helped me to see through this with a clearer perspective with this DAC design, and where the best upgrades will prove to be influential by a large margin. I am a bit more confident now within my preparedness to make the right choice, or at least be prepared to correct for any substandard choices.

You know, this experimentation gives purpose and a great deal of satisfaction to a guy who is retired and now has some time on his hands to do something more rewarding in life. The point is not to find the perfect solution and be done with it. This provides a basis for involvement which keeps us moving on day to day with something exciting and involving to pass the time in a collective manner. Books are written, books are read. That provides a reciprocal realm where we continuously learn from each other. When we stop learning, we stop living with a purpose. One should never let a day go by without some form of experience which propagates knowledge.


I look forward to your feedback upon the items I am considering. Just know that I realize this is only the beginning phase of my own experimentation. You have to start somewhere. It only gets better from there.

I placed an order for the old stock Sprauge PIO tone capacitors. I bought 8 total of the 0.10 caps for initial bypassing. I believe these should give a fluid, more revealing higher end to the sound. I guess I will find out.


I may order a few more of these in lower values to explore the differances.

I am still making a decision on the main 3.3uf caps. Just as in your case, what if I find that the 3.3uf rating is not even the most ideal? It may be better for me to drop down to a 2.7uf cap, and fill in the remaining value with a series of specialty tuned caps of different composition to fine tune that overall balance. I certainly am not going to know this outcome without hearing it. If it doesn't work, try something else. I accept that finding that balance is not going to happen overnight, but it will come with perseverance and determination.

And yes, after the output stage is where I want it, then comes the power supply! No wonder high end audio components are so expensive, even when DIY.  The cost is always derivative of research and development.

Not sure about how these old soviet capacitors might sound. Have you ever had experience with them? They are very cheap to buy, and in bulk form.  I am considering trying these with the four 0.22 uf cap upgrades. These are PIO types with good tolerance ratings. For a few dollars each, if they don't find a home here, then no great loss, at least I tried them. They have to be better than the WIMA caps installed now.


What I don't like about the sound of this DAC now is the brightness factor. I am sure that the Chinese 6n11 tubes have something to do with that signature. Those low grade Solen caps are not helping much.  Soon, these will be upgraded to something that should be in this DAC.

As for now, I have made the first major upgrade with the new toroid heavy duty transformer for the tube output stage. I should be receiving the larger Rubycon caps for increasing the signal strength of the Toslink input. That should make a large difference. I should recieve the old stock (but unused) matched set of Amperex 6dj8 tubes made back in 1980, by next monday or so.  Those will really be a game changer in this DAC over what I hear now.

So upgrades are in process. It is one step at a time as you know. Hopefully I will always take the right steps forward.

I will make a decision on the main caps very soon. Once that I do, these will be ordered. Based upon what you have tried, and what you gained from that configuration in the final setting, I am taking the Mundorf SUPREME EVO Silver Gold Oil caps into consideration for the two 3.3uf caps, or spend the money on good quality copper foil in oil caps, followed by the progression of various bypass caps to find the right sound.  

When it is all said and done, I am sure I will have gone down the path of trial and error, only to find that my initial choice was not the final one. That really does become the basis of the game.

I will give some impressions of these upgrades as I make these upgrades with enough careful listening to follow.

This is going to take some time. I need to get ample burn-in time on the DAC before I can really hear the benefits. My new speaker drivers could use a bit more burn in time as well. They had use before, but not enough to call them well seasoned.  There are so many factors to consider when making these critical evaluations.

Again, thank you Will for the continued information and reflections upon your experiments. I am paying close attention.

Dominick, same goes to you. I appreciate your input here as well. Every bit helps. This is why it takes a team to win the game. One player won't do it own their own.

That data link concerning capacitors will be interesting to read. I will go over that when I get some time. I can see where that is useful for making decisions.  Thanks for posting that.

Alright, I shall return later and continue this. I have a few things to do in the meantime.


[smiley=dankk2.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/20/25 at 22:27:51
Hey RPS. Nice post. I will make a few more comments on it later, but my current thoughts now pretty put together on caps, and your feeling itchy for moving forward, I figured I should post what I have after a few thoughts your recent post brought up for me being relevant for caps.

With my similar DAC design, I am guessing it took a good 300 hours to start to settle toward its more conclusive sound. And variably coming and going darkness and slower thickness were as usual issues. But unusually for me, weirdly pronounced sharpness and unrefined, overstated clarity and over textured complexity, especially with some recordings, and with more powerful and clear sounding tubes, were part of that pre-burned in sound. I could only guess that the very revealing, no negative feedback output was a big part of that, but the power and all before are clearly big players in its sound too... So who knows, but I would suggest running your DAC off and on for quite a while with several hour slots, to let things fully expand, and fully contract and seat, with music, and into a live pre even if the amp is off.

Also, it may not be clear that 3.3 is your ultimate cap without burnin and experimentation. So that being the current base cap, it could be smart to keep using it, or try some low cost alternatives for burnin, and then evaluate before spending much toward an ultimate base cap.

One thing that I think will likely help fix some of these issues, while making it much more enjoyable during burnin, would be to pick up some Miflex KPCU 0.022s and some Mallory 150s, and bypass the Solens. They will increase musical complexity with a touch of warmth, and the Miflexs will smooth things some. Also I think this is close to no risk, and not a huge loss if I am wrong. But I suspect you will find use for these caps later once you find your more optimal caps also.

In my experience a lot of what people feel as hyper detail, is actually hyper hardness, distortions, and consolidation from less than great parts and design. And these of course are worse before burnin, burnin helping to refine speed and complexity. I have consistantly found here that more detail complexity brought out musically, can solve hardness... so more detail in a sense is a cure for what many call too much detail, which entails more speed, less smearing, and parts and wires that can smoothly and musically help resolve enough of what is on the recordings to turn the hard detail into beautiful music, textured complexity softening edges and awakening harmonic beauty.

Traditionally, many designers, to me, mistakenly, go the other way, the better ones artfully masking detail with warmth and creating some higher frequency limitations.


But, back to your base caps...in time, if 3.3 is the best for all the balances in your output stage, I do like your thought of a decent 2.7 base concept that could be built on, and made better by better caps.

Do know though that there are audio authorities out there who would say the levels of bypassing I am doing are crazy... that this always causes phase issues and, "they are bad."

But from listening toward finding the right blends and applications, I hear less smearing with really good cap combinations giving more space, more fine detail, and I can't believe it is just from pulling those things out more... Looked at holistically, I wonder how I can have meaningful phase issues if the sound is notably more resolving of fine detail and space top to bottom, showing more textures and longer and more complete decays, faster, better leading edges, better dynamics and lucidity....  in my perception anyway, and in this setup, all these are strongly based in timing and associated resolution of smearing... These are also, to me beautiful things that careful, by-sound power supply and signal bypassing can support, and having had it, don't guess I can do without!

I guess what I perceive as success in this cap exploration could be in part based in how I listen, and what I have come to need... With so many experiments with cables and gear, by necessity, I continue to grow toward being able to "at once"  perceive more and more of the bolder and nuanced things that make up all the many balances. And by solving things that do not fit that... in a real sense, rather than trying to create really complete balances of all things... by needing to fix things that don't fit that beauty, I find it easier to create that beauty. So "hearing" it all at once, and having learned to discern more and more from a lot of "listening," as I refine my stuff, I may sort of naturally end up with less bypass related phase issues as a result... I really don't know.

Also, I do broadly pay attention to the 1/10 rule for bypasses, but not always, sound always my determinant. And my guess, especially as you get up into those high frequencies that very small bypasses help pull, I seem to get away with closer than 1/10 fairly often. All this is just theory based on what I hear though, never having taken measurements, but my thoughts.

Still a warning, and to me, another reason to dip your toe into bypassing as I suggest, to see what you hear in your setting, and see if you like it!

Next up will be my response to your previous posts... more on caps.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/20/25 at 22:59:11
RPS,

I have been temped by trying Spragues too, but have not. The "tone caps" I tried from Jupiter and a few other popular ones I can't recall were interesting, but not great for me. They seem to often be appreciated by guitar players wanting to change the sound with "tone," where those I tried as small bypasses I tired were musical in ways, but not my thing, preferring less coloration and slowness. Can't say about the Vitamin-Qs though so look forward to your impressions.

I have not tried the green K42Y-2 caps, but have used some K40Y-9s... wondering if they are family, the 42s maybe lower value and lower voltage??? don't know. Also have not tried the K-75s. It has been a really long time ago since I used K40Ys so not clear, but my audio memory seems to be OK most of the time anyway, so I will give it a go. New to cap play I thought they were nice, but not truly great for me. I think they were the first replacement for the Wima coupling caps in my Torii 3, and I preferred them, a little warmer, more complete and musical as I recall...smooth with the PIO, but if memory serves, reasonably well resolved too. But subtle sounding caps, not in your face. And my needs for clear resolution in space have evolved, so not sure what I would think of them now. They also may have been the first bypass caps I tried on my HR-1 tweeter caps, liking them there too. But it could have been mostly that a decent bypass helped, and I ended up finding others I liked better there, like in the amp, moving on from them into more lively, while still being musically sweet caps. That was a different Will and a different system though...

Russian caps I have tried were 0.1 down to 0.01, I think including PIO, silver mica, a few teflon variations (including some K72Ns like you showed). Overall I think they are good value caps, but most have not stayed in here. Too long ago to recall really specific sound details... But what comes to mind ... the PIOs were a little over-damped for me, maybe a little slow and slightly masked... Teflons were variable, the barrel types I recall as resolving and clear, but on the cool side... and vague in mind, but the heavier body ones, somehow reflected that heavy body, being a little more dense??? How are those for qualified memories!!! I am pretty sure I still have some .01 silver micas, and maybe some .022 barrel shaped teflons in the Torii IV power supply, for the latter, notable cleanness sometimes quite useful for a power supply balancing cap. A quick perusal of ebay, it looks like the barrel types have gotten more expensive.

I can try to listen to a few of these different caps in the next week or so if that would help. I think I have some with a least some burnin on them.


Speaking of burnin. If you are like me, and get captivated by cap exploration or upgrading, I really like the FryBaby 2 or 3. Lots of audio heads poo poo these things, but I have found it invaluable with all my cap and resistor experiments especially. I set up loops of them to burn in a bunch of different caps and resistors of various values at once usually, and the algorithm does not get them perfectly burned in, but can take care of the most difficult parts. Then I find generally that most caps only need 50 or so hours, in the gear, and with music, to get close to right, even with some pretty long burnin caps.


Might be a different batch, but the Mallory you pictured does not look like the same printing as mine of the same value, and I have been ordering them for quite a few years and seen subtle variations. Also partsconnexion and hificollective have them for not a lot more money. Of all the very low value bypass caps I have tried in electronics, they are the most universally good at not being in the face, but tuning up speed and resolution with pretty neutral, open and musical complexity, and working pretty well with most (if not all) of the caps I prefer. This is in part because they are effective, but not real powerful in their sound, like especially Duelund bypasses are, the Duelunds good if you like those sounds, but demanding in a resolving system if not quite right for your needs...

For the Mallory 150s, over 0.01, like .022s and up have too much self-sound for me. If you order some to play with, I would recommend getting some 0.001, 0.0022, 0.0033, 0.0047, and 0.01s. They all sound different and sometimes I use one, but sometimes two (or even three a few times)... like a 0.0047 or 0.1 followed by a 0.002, or 0.001. The low cost makes them fun to play with.


I may be missing something, and I can't see them clearly, but I can't recall seeing Amperex caps with glass shape and getters like those you ordered, the sort of bowl/flying saucer shaped getters suspended from both sides seeming perhaps more Russian to me. Nor do I recall seeing Amperex made in West Germany. Not that this rules out their being Amperex, but ECC88s types being a primary tube for me for years, and having looked at tubes for a while, I have not seen any like these. Hopefully they will sound great.

For a good taste of open and pretty rich complexity from Amperex ECC88s, Bugle Boys from the early 60s, with hallow getters, are sort of a classic example... and of course coming from a seller with lots of good ratings makes authenticity and quality a safer bet. Sometimes pairs come up at pretty low prices.


As I recall seems 6BQ7s are talked about sometimes as interchangeable with 6N1Ps, and sometimes with ECC88/6DJ8. Check it out, but also as I recall, I am thinking they are sort of in between 6DJ8/ECC88s and 6N1Ps electronically. In my CSP3 all of them work, but I imagine some circuits have tighter tolerances by design. I was thinking though, that if they say you can use 6N1Ps in your DAC, and ECC88s, you can probably use 6BQ7s. Those I have tried are notably more clear in general, 6N1Ps tending warmer, and ECC88s pretty variable, but generally milder and more open than E88CCs.

Don't know if you know the sites, but if you search a tube type along with data, and or, equivalent, the valve museum and radio museum site links that come up are really useful.


I have not tried Audionote signal caps in part because they are so high from known sellers. But aside from price, when I was doing a lot of resistor tests, I did try some of their also comparatively costly tantalum resistors. Though I found that tantalums were impressively solid and powerful in presentation, with dense and smooth sonic clarity, for me, in most positions, they are too dense and powerful sounding, with too much self sound... but I am a balanced harmonic complexity devotee, and a lot of folks really like them..... Still, comparing the Audionotes to the the tantalum Shinkohs I had, the Audionotes were notably too warm/full for me, making me think they are after a more colored and euphonic signature than I am...my guess anyway, to me, a signature resistor likely indicating designer preferences??? And of course my comments are based on my needs and preferences, but hopefully this helps at least to get more feel for basic sound tendencies of these things and trying to fit them into the baselines of your system and preferences.


In my cap drawers and gear, the most you will see are Miflex copper oils and Miflex coppers, neither ultimate on their own to me, but the closest I have found overall, and at least in their lower value caps, good economic value. They are my go to caps, often used together, especially in electronics, and especially with Mallory bypasses. Combined the three fill my needs best, also helping me to rule out lots of others that are really pretty nice caps, but each being a little off in balances compared to these... in combination especially. In some positions in the power or signal path, the white one's clarity is more useful, and in others the softer, more harmonically complex oils more useful, and mixing them in gear can be just right to me, offering the best of both. I also mix them at times using one as bypass and the other as base, topped with a Mallory150.

For higher value caps, some of those I have used.... 3.3 Miflex KPALs I got on sale for a really good price, so thought worth a try. These are their aluminum oils, and with a lot of burnin, and the right bypasses, they were quite nice caps on my ribbon tweeters in the HRs. But only on occasion do I use them in power supplies, and I don't use them as coupling caps. Somehow the warm/slowish damping of the oil, and how it balances with the generally clean and revealing aluminum sound do not blend impeccably for me in this particular design....both are nicely done, and both pretty good traits musically, but in this cap, I think these traits are a little too juxtaposed for me, a little lacking in integration. This makes them less easy in use...at least here and the way I perceive them... good caps, but a little challenging.

I have not gone there with big Miflex Copper Oils, being really costly and really large. But, like Dom, many swear by them. Just check the specs if you try them, as they are really big and heavy caps and take a really long time, I think especially the bigger they are, to burn in fully.

I found the old style Mundorf Supreme and Sliver Oils to have too much of the Mundorf Supreme sound, to me similar to Duelund bypasses, not in exact sound qualities, but in the sound having a contrived vibe to me, too intellectual toward ticking audiophile boxes and sounding that way to me, affectedly warm. And the silver gold old style Supremes are expensive, even for smaller bypasses, and while I think it is pretty good, I don't love Mundorf's silver gold wire sound, so I never risked them...  Alternately, the Mundorf EVOs I have tried were not mind blowing, but were pretty nice with nice bypasses, like in my DAC right now using the EVO Aluminum Oil as a base cap. To me, the EVOs I have are more transparent and lively, less obviously colored, but not cold, especially with nice bypasses.

My HR-1s are not in the system now, but I was using the Supreme Evo Oils in my HR-1 mid driver crossover, and liked it... Not an ideal test place for sussing out subtle sound qualities, but I recall it as pleasantly bigger sounding than the normal EVO aluminum oils, and with that, solidly dynamic and smooth, while remaining open and revealing in pretty balanced ways, and being nicely resolving. But of course, they were carefully bypassed! The Evos are smaller too, easier to fit.

VHaudio Odams I tried are really nice sounding small body caps too, like I said earlier, the only ones I tried being smallish .094 coupling caps, again, carefully bypassed, but having good balances for me, slightly warm, rich, smooth, lively and dynamic. At this point a 2.2 Odam is a fav recommendation from the designer of my DAC. Though more costly, being smaller and musical, it may be worth consideration ultimately. I am waiting to see after more burnin if I will want to stay with a 1.5uF base cap in my DAC, or go to a 2.2, then I will probably buy a pair of Odams to try. So far, it seems 1.5uF is where I will end up in this DAC and this room, but things are still changing.

Jantzen Alumen-Zs are really revealing while being a touch warm and nicely smooth, at least used on my HR-1 ribbon tweeters. But to me, the 3.3 is a little rolled off and flattish without bypasses. With a Miflex Copper Oil 0.33 to bring up the value to where it seemed best, and to richen them up, and then some bypassing, I found them to be really nice. They are only 100V I think though, but not knowing what voltage you can use, I thought I would mention them.


Which reminds me...Especially before getting to know a lot of caps, I think it can often be easier to get great sound from cap blends starting with well balanced, but a slightly overly clear/open base cap, providing a basis of speed and space to warm up and build complexity on with warmer and complex bypass caps.

Definitely more... but enough for now, I hope this helps some.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/21/25 at 05:24:29

Which reminds me...Especially before getting to know a lot of caps, I think it can often be easier to get great sound from cap blends starting with well balanced, but a slightly overly clear/open base cap, providing a basis of speed and space to warm up and build complexity on with warmer and complex bypass caps.

Definitely more... but enough for now, I hope this helps some.


Absolutely! I could not agree more with that analogy.

Yes, you have provided a great deal today on reflecting upon important issues which certainly are what I am centered upon right now. You have helped tremendously to say the least.


So, just have to figure out where to start here.

Okay, so your observation of the "German" Amperex 6dj8's labeled (made in Germany) was correct. You have a good eye when it comes to tube detail.

This was made clear to me from the seller who actually said the same thing that you did. This is what he wrote in the description:

"Here are NOS in box matched pairs of Amperex 6DJ8 or ECC88 vacuum tubes. These have the orange globe logo and are marked Made in W. Germany.   However they have the fat bottle and top saucer getter which indicates early Russian manufacture.  They are dated 22nd week of 1980.  All are new old stock in original box and matched on our Hickok USM118B tester.  Typical readings are 74-76 and 71-72, where 50 is minimum good and above 70 is NOS.  We have a number of pairs available, and the price is for one pair.  Satisfaction is guaranteed. "


This seems to be a common situation with old stock tubes on E-bay. I surely hope they are authentic Amperex tubes. If not, then I just have to accept that loss, and find a new set of tubes. I was strongly considering those old 6bZ7 GE tubes that are factory matched as a set. I hesitated because I need to be certain that they will be compatible with my DAC circuit. Not sure exactly what would happen if these were not the correct voltage requirements for my DAC. But the info clearly states that this tube is an equivalent to the 6922/6dj8 tube.

I will need to research this data and see what I can come up with.

If anyone can clarify whether or not this is risky to try out, let me know. If they are compatible for sure, then I may order a set and try them out. I think that the 6n1p design is out of parameters for use in this DAC circuit. That would be a great tube to use. I love the dynamics of the 6922 offering, but after hearing how bright and forward this DAC sounds in stock form, I wanted to tame things out a bit with the more subtle 6dj8 version.

A set of these is only $36.00 for the matched set made by GE, guaranteed for one year with full testing performed.

I really like the sound of Electro-Harmonix 6922EH tubes. I still have the original set in my ToriiMK3 which was built back before 2012 if I am correct. This amp has at least 12,000 hours on it. These are the only tubes that have never needed replaced. I am on my third set of power tubes and rectifiers now. Everything else has been replaced only once. There is zero sign of failing tubes at this time, and I don't foresee any failure in the near future. But you know how that goes.

Eventually, I will get a new set of matched EH tubes for the DAC. I believe they run around $70.00+ if not cryoed.

Where I am at currently with my thought process and plan of attack to start with is this: (mind you, I am starting out slow with a budget approach just to get things rolling with the upgrades). Anything that I buy will still have a use for another project, and if not, it just goes into my parts stash. I am however, trying to take a very logical approach to my madness with this project. I can only hope that the decisions I make are in my best interest.

This is what I have purchased so far that I plan to try out in the first stage of upgrades.

As for the voltage requirements, I do not want to go below 200 v.


I needed this size to trim out my final value with the four 0.22 cap requirements. They seem like decent PIO caps and the price was very good for the amount I needed.





I bought eight of these to use all the way around. Super good deal on these.







I bought eight of these 0.10 bypass caps which are the better versions of the Vitamin Q PIO caps.

These of course are used all the way around.





This set will go into the stack of caps building up the four 0.22 replacements for the WIMA upgrades.






And finally, this set of caps. I need this value to fill out the four 0.22 cap requirements.









Here is the breakdown: For the main 3.3uf values, these will be the build factor.

Possibly Mundorf? Still undecided, core value of 2.7uf + a copper in oil cap rated at 0.47uf + Vitamin Q PIO cap value 0.10uf + Vitamin Q PIO cap value 0.082uf. The total capacitance for this stack is 3.35uf.

I can experiment with the total value after initial testing to see where it sounds best. This does allow for flexibility.


As for the four 0.22uf values needed:

Vitamin Q PIO cap value of 0.10uf +Vitamin Q PIO cap value of 0.082uf + Russian PIO caps rated value at 0.033uf + Vitamin Q PIO cap value of 0.0022uf + Vitamin Q PIO cap value of .0039uf.   The total capacitance for this stack is 0.22uf. The entire stack is made up of paper in oil capacitors.

I believe this choice will provide a mellow, more laid back presentation compared to what I have now. I shall see once I hear it after burn-in. I expect to hear a nice sparkle with fine detail in the presentation. These seem to be the type of caps that should provide that element. The only way to know is through trial. I hope these caps complement the character for which the 6dj8 tube is known for.

As for the decision on what base cap I will start with concerning the 2.7uf value, that seems to be the toughest to decide upon. I am thinking that to start, I have many well broken in Dayton 1 percent MKP caps which I should have the 2.7 value. I have a bunch of these in different values, many that are well broken in from past projects. I have always found this premium MKP cap to sound neutral and very detailed with very open sound quality. It just may provide a good base to start with before I decide on the actual values needed in the final design. At least I will be better informed as to the correct value, the first time.

I did read that the Mundorf supreme aluminum EVO was actually favored over the silver gold version. The aluminum version is cheaper I believe. Just goes to show that more expensive designs are not always the best choice.

If I read you right, I believe you found interest in the aluminum supreme version, but did not care for the silver gold EVO design. I would think that the aluminum foil would sound bright and metallic. But apparently, this is not the case. I want to focus upon copper for my final voicing. I believe that I will be the most pleased with a copper oil cap.  But for now, this is simply part of the experiment. It is something to build upon. My reasoning about metal is this, isn't copper a far better conductor than aluminum? Of course. So what is it about it's properties that makes it sound pleasant for audio? That seems a mystery to me. I know how silver cables sound compared to copper versions. That is quite the dramatic difference. The silver being so much brighter with more extension.


I have an idea that I just have to try. You might think I'm wasting my time on this, but it doesn't hurt to try it out.  While exploring different copper oil caps on the Alli-Express site, I have noticed a particular Chinese cap that has caught my attention. The design seems to be a clone of the expensive Audio Note premium audiophile caps. The design parameters and material used is almost identical. What makes it appealing is the price. I can get these for less than half of what the Audio-Note cap goes for. There are reviews that claim these to be very good, much better than you might think. For the price, I think it is worth a shot to see just how good these caps really are.  Here are the details concerning this cap.



2pcs/lot original Pan Ocean Ag-Cu-Oil 250v-630v Copper foil oil immersed axial HIFI audio frequency divider free shipping

The price is for a lot of two each caps.  The shipping is free.


Description

● Technical highlights

◆ Structure

Imported 6N copper foil inner core
High tin content tin zinc alloy solder layer
PET metal coating, flame retardant epoxy resin encapsulation
Silver plated copper wire

◆ Process

German high-temperature industrial oil impregnation technology
High temperature vacuum heat treatment technology
New Asia independently develops "13 layer" gold spraying technology

◆ Characteristics

Extremely low loss, extremely low internal resistance, extremely low inductance
Stable working life of 100000 hours, unchanged sound quality
The outer sealing material has a shielding effect

◆ Characteristics

Biliary amplifier
Home audio, car audio, stage audio and other audio equipment.






If these caps actually turn out to be something worthwhile, they become the best bargain in copper oil caps.

If not, just another lesson in audio.

As seen, I would order a set of the 400v 0.47uf values to use as the prime quality factor for the 3.3uf total capacitance needed. The larger cap being 2.7uf will be either the Mundorf EVO cap, or something else. This will provide the copper oil flavoring without buying a full 3.3 value for a much greater cost factor. The goal is to find good overall performance without spending a fortune on caps. You have proven this concept yourself with very favorable results. It can be done.

At this time, I want to stay clear of high priced esoteric offerings. That will only come into play once I have made a firm decision within my final evaluation of the DAC. Anything is possible in the future.



This is a lot of information to go over and give a reply to. I have had enough for tonight. I shall get back to this tomorrow with a fresh outlook. I really do need to read your post again due to the amount of information. But I shall.

Chat again later.

Thanks Will.


[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Dominick on 02/21/25 at 11:57:36

Quote:
Good to hear from you Dom, and how good your experiments have come out and held up for you!
.

Hi Will….it’s good to hear from you as well!  Yes my capacitor exploration has truly paid off. It has really shown me how the sum of its parts is greater than its whole.  

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/21/25 at 21:48:42
Hey RPS. Holland made or US Amperex are common, but I have not heard of Amperex made in Russia before. And with loads of Ebay tube orders over the years, I have only had one fraud-like issue, where I had asked an unknown seller if a quad he had of 807s not only were matched and strong electronically (like the add said) but also in structure, and both were off. Ebay resolved that for me and not sure if they blew him off, but I did not run across that seller again.

To me calling your tubes "NOS in box matched pairs of Amperex 6DJ8 or ECC88" is suspect, but then clearly stating they are Russian made tubes with associated dates is pretty straight up. I wonder if they are 6N23Ps? If so, those I have tried have a pretty clean and powerful sound... maybe a bit milder than a lot of E88CCs, but thinking not as big a step as 6DJ8s for relaxing the sound. But if they are 6N23Ps, I think they are electronically close enough for most to truly claim them as direct replacements. Whereas 6N1Ps are often billed as ECC88 replacements, but have a notably higher heater draw, which in many circuits seems to work, but not others.

Looking at Radio Museum and Valve Museum specs all are 6.3 volts, then Amperes: E88CC =0.3, ECC88 =0.365, 6N23P =0.31, 6BQ7 =0.4, 6N1P =0.6

May be worth a note to the seller to see what tube they think this is. And maybe to the DAC seller to ask for the full range of tubes they think the circuit can use well.... if you have choices beyond ECC88 and E88CC. Mine is tolerant of a lot of different 6.3 tubes, and yours may be more flexible also.

On caps...

"Here is the breakdown: For the main 3.3uf values, these will be the build factor.

Possibly Mundorf? Still undecided, core value of 2.7uf + a copper in oil cap rated at 0.47uf + Vitamin Q PIO cap value 0.10uf + Vitamin Q PIO cap value 0.082uf. The total capacitance for this stack is 3.35uf.

I can experiment with the total value after initial testing to see where it sounds best. This does allow for flexibility."

This and your 0.22 idea are interesting... but some risk, and definitely jumping in hard on bypassing!

I don't think you need to worry about exact matches in total value as long as you are pretty close... and that is if 3.3 is truly optimal for this design and the sound you want. You may prefer less or more. And you have a nice range coming to add and subtract toward value evaluation, unconventional values possible with a conglomerate cap set rather than individual caps.

I think to a point, more nice caps making up the total value will yield a more complete sound, not just from additive effects, but from how each is more focussed on a particular part of the frequency band, each "bypass" of relatively equal quality being better at its part of the range than one larger cap alone. Anyway, if you feel like 3.3 is best, I would be inclined get close to your proposed total, but I don't think 3.2 or 3.4 will make a very big difference to your sound due to conglomerate value alone, especially with materials and design from different caps changing some of the sonic characteristics that small value changes can create...

Also, part of your brightness with the stock tubes may be amped up by the wrong caps for your needs, these Solens perhaps being too clear. But, also, all else the same, a higher value will have a little broader range, while likely giving a denser signal. So it may be that 3.0 with the right caps for the tone changes you are after will sound warmer and less forceful than a brighter 3.3.

Also, many times folks still use the stock value for the main cap, replacing it with a really good cap, and adding one small bypass to pull the finer detail and speed. A common fav for this, a 0.01 Duelund bypass only increases the value of a 3.3 Miflex to 3.31.




But you are looking at avoiding the cost of a really good base cap, and refining the tone and speed of the base cap with more characterful caps. If considering bypass sound quality more than exact final value, 0.1 and 0.082 are still pretty big caps and will have a strong sound influence, while also being close in value, 0.082 just 18% less value, rather than the 90% less that the bypass "standard" of 1/10 or less equates to. In my experiments using closer values where it pretty consistantly works for me, I am using 0.01s and lower values, and physically small caps... so working a much narrower frequency range, and those little caps have a less powerful sonic presentation.

A way of looking at it... at least in a lot of my stuff, Steve uses mainly 0.1 coupling caps, and changing them to different caps of the same value shows the sound of each cap, usually making a pretty powerful difference in the sound. Whereas, in a resolving setup, you can definitely hear differences in very small bypasses, like different 0.0022s, but it would have a different feel in that they are working on a more limited higher frequency range and often are smaller physically also, so subtler in sonic changes. This is part of what I like about the Mallorys in electronics, they make nice changes in meaningful, but relatively subtle ways. In this example, bypassing these coupling caps, I think you could add a nice sounding 0.002 to both a 0.082, and a 0.1 of the same type, and the result would be pretty similar in terms of speed, fine detail, and space enhancement from the bypasses, likely the differences between them bypassed more from the 0.082 having a little less bass range, and being a little less pushed and more relaxed than the 0.1... the 0.082 compared to the 0.1 might be kind of like a nice ECC88 compared to a nice E88CC.

So for bypass sound quality and theory as I have sort of learned it, I would probably try a 2.7uf + 0.47uf copper in oil cap + Vitamin Q PIO the Sprague 0.082 + 0.0039 sprague as the top cap, ending up about 3.26. And I would suggest soldering them in ways that would allow you easily remove and reinstall them one at a time in case your want to AB, or the smaller bypasses don't suit your sound preferences.

For the 0.22s I might try some 0.22s bypassed with the .0039, or .0022.

Not saying your initial plan won't work for you.... just hoping to be clear with how I tend to look at these things.


Even now though, before your bypasses and base cap choice come, I think it would be intersting to just change the Solen to your 2.7 Daytona for a first test. Not being the same cap, there would be more sonic influences than just value, but that much value change would show and it would be interesting to hear how that effects the overall sound on its own, without bypasses. Who knows, you might prefer it, or not, but this could be good a pointer for going forward in finding your fav value.


I have only used 0.1 and 0.01 Silver Gold Oil Evos, and they are interesting caps to me, clear and resolving while being softened/warmed a little with the oil and gold, and to me veiled a bit, like a little glaze of veil on top of it all. Could be a lot of things, but this may be at least in part from the silver-gold alloy choices Mundorf made. I hear gold softening, texturing, and warming with Noetech silver/gold wire, but no veil, where, as I recall, Mundorf Silver/gold wire sounds more rigid and a little veiled to me. The true test, I rarely leave these caps in long... doing a lot of nice stuff, but usually not quite sounding real to me. But I really don't know how my sound impressions of these small caps might translate to the larger versions... guessing they probably sound pretty good.

In my previous post talking about not caring for old style Supremes and silver/oil Supremes, I was talking about not risking the Supreme Silver/gold oils and their high cost, not Supreme Sliver Gold EVOs, which are also costly and I have not tried. But Evos I have heard being more neutral, lively and less colored to me, I think I would be more inclined to try them than the old supreme version.


Yes, metals... I go by what I hear, and aluminum foil does tend to its own flavors of clean, but there are a lot of things that make a cap's sound beside the films and wires. Overall I found both Jupiter VTs and Miflex KPAL 3.3s on the slower/dark side, and both use aluminum foil, whereas the 0.1 Jupiter HTs, also aluminum foil, I find quite clear, but smooth. Not sure how much size matters in this, not having heard 3.3 HTs.

On conduction standards compared to copper... not my thing, sound my guide, and I have no idea why aluminum works well in caps when well implemented, or why Rhodium Plate, at what 38% of copper, is so popular as a clear sounding plating. And like I said earlier, I can't pigeon hole all copper wires as the same at all, and the same for silver.... purity, draw method, hardness and no doubt more make them all different to me, not to mention dielectric.

Same with caps, and based on your liking oil and copper conceptually, if you were to buy five 3.3s, I strongly suspect they would all sound different.

Would be nice if those Chinese made copper/oil caps pan out! Why not? Just depends on a good seller and the design and making being good. Production and I guess material cost less in China, I too tend to shop at Ali now and then. And in my experience, with careful seller shopping, and decent descriptions, I have gotten some pretty great sounding things.





Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/21/25 at 23:37:40
Sounds like I may be on the right track.  It is good to have another "upgrade specialist" (how's that for finding the correct title?) actually take the time to review and verify the overall projection of an idea.

See what you did Will, you turned me into an upgrade maniac!


;D


Naw, I was heading in that direction all by myself. You just cheered me on. Without your help, I might have gone in the wrong direction.


Back to the drawing board. After much research today trying to find the best solution I can feel confident with for my base caps, I am excited at what I found, which I believe will be ideal for my situation.  I recalled you mentioning the V cap ODAM series.  After reading about the technology, and the glowing reviews about these caps, I believe I have a winner here, especially since the price fits within my budget. I would try them anyway, regardless of the price.

You know everything is subject to change, but I have a really good feeling about these ODAM caps as my base. These I expect to offer the best cap performance for the price which I have found yet. (subject to my listening evaluation of course)   Something tells me that I will be happy with these.

Along with my original old stock paper in oil Vitamin Q caps in different variations, I strongly believe that I can come up with a very impressive combination using these capacitors together. I guess we shall see once the experiments begin.

I have to wait until next month to order any more caps due to the fact that I have a huge payment to Decware to make very soon. The rate of progress for the Zrock3 order is moving rapidly now. I have a feeling that mine will be on the bench within two weeks, maybe sooner.

I want so badly to order these ODAM caps right now, but I have to wait.

Like you suggested, I should give it some time and let each upgrade breath a bit so that I can tell what the individual upgrades are doing to the sound.  Since I already have some seasoned 1 percent 2.7 MKP caps on hand, I might as well try them out as you suggested, then try various combinations of the PIO caps for bypassing. I know this takes time, but I am like a kid waiting for a present.  I just want it all now...but I have to be patient.

I am thinking that the 2.7 caps will definitely sound better than the Solen 3.3 caps. With the Vitamin Q PIO enhancement, that will go a long ways. And this gives me several weeks to live with it as I get familiar with the new sound signature. As you said, I may just like it.

I am quite sure that stepping up to the Vcap ODAM's will take things up to audiophile grade territory.  Just have to fine tune the combination until I get that favored "curve".

Anyway, here is what I want to buy for my base caps to replace the current 3.3 Solen's.











These caps are highly praised and very budget priced. I really think this is a wise choice for the final upgrade. I say "final" loosely, but you get the drift.


As for those tubes I bought. I knew that sounded risky, but I took that chance. I will find out next week if they are any good or not. I will be sure to let you know. I will be trying other tubes as well as time goes on.

My Rubycon caps should arrive tomorrow. If so, I will be upgrading the Toslink capacitor to get that upgrade out of the way.  That will be upgrade number two.

I am pondering the swap from the 3.3 Solen's this weekend, to the Dayton 2.7 caps just to see what happens while I have my soldering station out. That could have an interesting outcome.


Of course, once I feel good about the DAC, you know where this is going next.

I have thought about upgrading the caps within the ToriiMk3 for quite awhile now. Perhaps it is time to see what I can do with that.  That is going to be a very costly endeavor to say the least. These new design Vcap ODAMS just might be the ticket for that amplifier. Perhaps, but it does seem like a good choice.


Upgrade fever has me very focused upon the possibilities!


[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/21/25 at 23:43:21



Oh, and one more thing I forgot to mention.

I am thinking of adding these to the mix for that extra special touch.








I believe I have found a great combination  which is still budget friendly.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Dominick on 02/22/25 at 14:20:26
Red Pill…making a decision on the final value and manufacturer of the mains is a an important decision.  I think it’s a great idea to experiment with a lower cost experimental cap to dial in the value.  But…at the end of the day…spending top dollar on the cap once you make a final decision will pay you a return in spades.  

Also…in response to doing a double cap bypass and having a phase shift…I’ve had conversations with Will about this.  I originally had some concerns about a phase shift after having a conversation with Bob Ziegler.  So after some critical listening…. I came to the conclusion ….at least to my ears (which is the most important aspect) that if the second bypass is small enough based on the cumulative value of all the caps….that the second bypass will give that extra fine detail in the highs.  Hence….after hearing what the second bypass did for the sound….I couldn’t give it up.  

Dom

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/22/25 at 21:36:17



Thanks for the post Dom,

Yes, I agree with what you say here. No way would I immediately jump to conclusions and spend hundreds of dollars for the "final" voiced caps until I had a solidified sense of certainty that I was making that absolute best choice based upon my testing.


I will buy at the price point of the lower values for esoteric capacitors. They are what makes the most for fine tuning anyway, so very much the most critical. I am limited by my audio budget as to what I can spend on these capacitors. This is why things have to be done over time as we can afford to buy the more expensive items.

Yes, I agree that using the best premium parts available is always going to make the most difference in quality. But there can always be a compromise where a more affordable choice can be made without sacrificing the majority of that gain. If I am satisfied with what I hear overall in the music (mostly classic rock and Classical genre), then I have attained my goal. I can always do final tweaking with costlier caps in the future. I just can't do it all at once. (wish I could)

Another reason I am doing these upgrades is out of shear curiosity. I want to gain that experience and really know by personal listening evaluation exactly what these changes do for music overall. I see this as a scientific project for which I am going to gain knowledge from. Even though we may take a different approach  than another who has success in their endeavors, doesn't mean that we are limited  for alternative measures to in effect, gain the same degree of gain. I know the type of sound I am looking to achieve. The only way to find that is through experimentation. The bad thing about this concerns the time involved between the upgrades, and the fact that so many hours are required for each upgrade to season properly before the real end result can be determined.

Is there a DIY circuit that can be made cheaply to "burn-in" capacitors at a rapid rate? If there is, I want to build it and put it to use. This would speed up the process.

I am going to take what I learn from modifying this DAC, and apply it to the ToriiMK3 amplifier at a later date. I will need to examine the layout of that amp to see what I will need for cap values. I am also considering high grade silver/copper hook-up wire (larger gauge) to use in this amp as well. I am also considering  premium quality step attenuation to replace the stock volume control. I am sure that some premium Miflex bypass caps wouldn't hurt either. Knowing how huge the capacitor bank is inside, I know the cost is going to be high. Still much cheaper than buying a new amp which still does not have these high end capacitors. I love this amp, but I know it can be better, but at a huge cost factor. In the end, it is worth it.


Today, I received the new 6dj8 tubes to replace the cheap Chinese 6n11 versions. The seller tested them and made sure that my set was balanced.  These are old stock which are dated for 1980.  They look great, but have expected surface corrosion on the pins which most old tubes have from age.  Not bad, but enough to distort the signal. I do this with all of my tubes when needed as general maintenance.

I cleaned all of the pins with fine Emory paper until shiny. Then I cleaned the pins with DEOXIT cleaner, then treated with DEOXIT gold lubricant.

I just installed the new tubes into the DAC and turned it on to warm up. They have been in use now for about an hour. They will take at least 20 to 30 hours before they start to relax and perform more as they should.

What I noticed immediately with these new tubes versus the 6n11's was as follows. Right out of the box, fresh install, zero time on tubes, and with the audio system stone cold, my initial impression surprised me much more than I expected from this tube swap.  The sound of this DAC using the Chinese tubes was way too bright and in my face (shouting perhaps?). The volume loudness was way too strong as if the gain was too high. I could barely turn up the volume control on the amp without it being too loud. I suspected that the 6n11 tubes were the cause of this. That is why I wanted to immediately change them for something better.

As soon as I turned on the DAC and listened briefly with a cold system, it already became apparent, actually instantly, that my assumption was correct about the characteristics between these tube designs. The difference was not subtle, it was actually quite large. I noticed immediately that the balance of the music was smoother and far more laid back. (using a Telarc audiophile CD of Mozart)

I have to increase the volume control on the amp to a much higher level now to get the listening level I prefer. This was the reason why I chose a 6dj8 tube to use for now. So far, the indication is a vast improvement which I believe seems to be the right choice. This alone has made a dramatic change in the sound of this new DAC.

I have about 50 hours of break-in time now on the new DAC. The way it sounded before I made the tube swap was already far better than the first night I tried to listen to this fresh DAC. That was a horrible experience the first few nights I tried to listen to this. Now with the better tubes, and some time on it, I think it is getting close to sounding fairly decent. Of course the new tubes have set me back a bit with burn in optimization, but the upgrade is still better than the sound with the 6n11 tubes.

Hey Will, it seems that I did alright buying this set of tubes. Too early to tell, but out of the gate, they make a positive difference.  After a few days go by, I will be better prepared to make that analysis for a fair rating. I do however, feel that I got my money's worth at this time.  We shall see. I am going to try and listen to this system tonight after a few hours of warm up and stabilization.


I also received my set of Sprauge Vitamin Q paper in oil caps rated at 0.10uf. These are pretty large for the rated capacitance.

Going through my capacitor collection, I found a set of ERSE MPX (pulse) series caps in the 3uf range These are much greater quality than the Dayton caps, so I will be using these for initial testing as my base caps. The physical size of these caps are actually 50 percent smaller than the Solen caps that came in the DAC. The Vitamin Q caps are just about the same size as the 3uf caps from ERSE.

My plan is to listen with just the new tubes tonight to get a preliminary idea of the sound before I do the first cap change. The total capacitance will be reduced to 3.1uf after the upgrade.  So I think tomorrow, I may perform this upgrade with this group for use until I can get the V-cap ODAM's next month. By that time, this DAC will have a good amount of playing time on it. This will provide a better base to start from when I get ready for the next cap trial.

I am expecting an improvement with the ERSE/Vitamin Q upgrade by a large degree. I just hope that I am correct in my assumption. The testing begins here. It is going to be a long journey, but one that I will enjoy.

The other bypass caps that I ordered won't be here until next week. Not a rush on those.

So I shall get back with you on my listening impressions concerning the tube change in a day or so. This is somewhat insignificant at this stage of the game considering that the tubes have no time on them other than a few hours.. I will provide the initial details anyway, and go from there as time passes. But as I said, I already noticed a huge change in the music.

I shall get back to this later. It is time to go listen for awhile.


:-?

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 02/22/25 at 23:14:16
RPS,

Great discussion on all things caps and upgrades recently. I wish I had some words of wisdom on these topics but not being a DIY guy, (at this level at least) I can only sit back and learn. I think the information is great and may help when and if I bite the bullet and attempt some changes of my own. Thanks to Will, Dom and JB, I think you've got a plethora of valuable information to sift through. Very thorough and very descriptive. I know with all that info you'll come to the right conclusion for your task. With all your experience, your ears will guide you well. Good luck with it all.

As far as the DAC with a tube-based analog output stage, I whole heartedly agree that it can be fantastic. My modified (by MWI) streamer/DAC has one and I couldn't be happier with the sound. The modifications include galvanic isolation, dedicated power supplies for low and high voltage, Lundahl transformers and top-notch analog output stage (amongst other things). I too selected 6DJ8's for the pair. They are mirror matched. They are Amperex NOS 1969 with ultra-low microphonics (not sure the low microphonics matter in this as much as it would in a SUT though). I find them very neutral, and they pass on the excellent signal delivered with this modified transport (XLR out to ZBIT). It came with JJ E88CC's and sounded good but the 6DJ8's (NOS/1969 Holland) do it total justice now. When I read that you had bought the 6DJ8's I thought you would like them very much. Glad to now read they are serving you well. Congrats on that.

Thanks to everyone here who has chimed in about caps, resistors, and upgrades in general so far, it will be a great reference for the future.

Have fun with your experiments and exploration.

As an aside, I read your post about the latest developments with quantum computing/topological superconductivity. Having worked for IBM for 31 years and hearing things coming out of their research division at that time, I was aware of this type of stuff for a while. Gotta say though, the speed at which this recent development has occurred is mind boggling. In the past it seemed like a great technological advance, but now with AI in the mix this may be more of a curse than a blessing. I just hope it's used exclusively for the betterment of mankind. (what's the chances of that though?)  

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/22/25 at 23:29:26
RPS. For cap burnin I mentioned the Frybaby 2 or 3 earlier. They are not dirt cheap, but pretty good value, especially used, and if you go back and read what I said there, you will get my impressions. I don't know if the dude sells plans or not... but for me, these have been a necessity.

That is interesting the big difference with the tubes. I recall the 6N11s I have being big and bright, not that much different going to a real ECC88 or a 6N23P. Makes me wonder more which Russian type it is.



I suspect that with the, to me, nicely balanced and high quality Odams as a base cap, you can hardly go wrong. And that refining it with a Miflex Copper Oil would likely be a really nice combination, adding complexity with the KPCU version of revealing harmonic complexity and warmth. My guess anyway. A few things came to mind with this most recent direction though.


The first, starting with a lesser, but decent, relatively open and fast base cap, and adding to that more refined caps like KPCU, the bypasses will definitely tune the base cap with the special qualities of the "bypasses," if a synergistic blend for the qualities you need, potentially making the decent base cap a quite good cap.

What I am hearing now with a inexpensive 1.5 Mundorf Aluminum Oil EVO, 2- Miflex KPCUs - 0.1 and 0.022, and those followed by two Mallory 150s, a 0.001 and a 0.0022 (5 caps), is pretty amazing to me... and both sets, if bought now, would be less cost than the just 1.5 Odams at the reduced price from buying a pair. I did bypass the power supply some, by sound also, which makes these output caps that much better. But still, this cap set, with the tubes I am using, and in my setting, is feeling beautiful in this DAC. Not that it would necessarily suit your specific needs, but interesting to me.

I may be able to pull one of the small Mallorys, but it is captivating now, and I am content waiting for it all to settle, the DAC, and other component tuning I have done since getting the DAC, still settling in. With the right gain tuning, everything seems pretty complete in beautiful balances. But there is still some work to do.

When the gain stage balancing is a little off toward full/warm, a slight veil shows up over all balances, mostly revealed as veiled speed and subtle loss of edges. If there, it can have a slightly synthetic feeling "warm" quality. I just noticed it this morning, getting close to having no issues, those that remain showing more I guess. I think more DAC power supply bypassing might solve it... but perhaps replacing a Wima or two also, as this "offness," when it shows, reminds me of why I had to move on from Wimas back in the day. Still, it is intersting and encouraging that if the gain stages are nicely tuned, the veil disappears into a great musical adventure...



Anyway, all things considered, I don't have reservations about your Odam base choice. But just wanted to point to the complexity of all this, and my, once again, noticing that the more refined a system/room gets, the narrower the parameters are toward enhancing what we have, potentially making really good stuff not quite right in a given setting without some effort. This, in my setting, where I am always hovering in a zone that is beautiful to me, but can lean overly warm and euphonic for my tastes when off, points to the potential benefits from the sort of cap setup I am using. The base cap, somewhat lacking in tonal characters, is not awesome on its own, but sets up a pretty clean canvas to expand on. And with the right bypassing, it can end up better than a well loved and expensive base cap, especially if the tonier cap is not quite right for the component and system combination.

Further, in this setting, this DAC reveals all it does pretty powerfully, and being biased toward a revealing, but also a slightly slow, dense and warm signal (a little euphonic)... I have been needing to tone down signal density some to solve leanings toward a little overly strong bass on some recordings, associated thickness into the mids, and over consolidation of fine detail and speed information. But also, oddly, over-differentiation of textural information showed up with more powerful tubes, especially in early burnin... a new for me example of strong signal density potentially consolidating fine musical information, but in this case, leaving the bones of textures revealed.



Under these conditions, with this DAC and setting, especially since I have found that 2.2uF pushes density a bit far for me, showing as off first with bass thickening... my guess is that a Miflex KPCU 2.2 (the recommended cap size when upgrading this DAC), even well bypassed, might not the ideal for me. Likely beautiful, and rich, but for my needs, guessing it could be a little overly warm and slow, especially with darker recordings. Alternately, some of the folks out there talking about this DAC love Jupiter Coppers and Miflex KPCUs...

I gave up on Jupiter Coppers a long time ago, able to get them to sound great, just not able get past hearing their particular signature, part of which for me, a tendency toward what I hear as an imbalance between clean highs and softish/slowish bass.

I could likely make Miflex Copper Oils work, though I might not be able to finally close the lid on the DAC. But being into pretty notable speed and complexity, they might just be a little warm/slow down lower especially as a base cap here... My balances so defined and narrow, especially with the challenges of long bass waves, I need the bass fast and textured, and just can't have the low end feel slower or thicker than natural bass sound in a good room, or slow compared to the mids and highs... a certain edge I try to avoid going over even if pretty mild and only on dark recordings.

Also, I really like a subtly euphonic sound, but when bass fullness/slowness leaks into the mids a little too much, with my love of speed and complexity, euphonic beauty to some, can be darkish masks for me past a delicate edge... off-balancing speed some, reducing leading edges, space, inner detail, harmonic complexity. So having worked a long time to get and hold just-so sweet warmth, with bass depth and complexity, everything being musically smooth/warm, but with really good speeds and textures bottom to top, I likely would not risk the high cost and size using KPCUs as a base cap with this warm leaning DAC and my current room sound. Whereas, as tuning caps/bypasses, or for coupling caps, or mixed with a little cleaner caps as PS bypasses, I love KPCUs ....

EDIT: But in yours... if the DAC stays a little bright after burnin and playing with tubes, they might be really right! And don't get me wrong, part of what I love about these caps is that they are open and harmonically rich, warmish and a little smooth/oily, but not overly so in most cases. I am just a hair splitter on shaping sound, so imaging here.

That said, I will probably buy some 1.5 Odams to see what I can pull from them as base caps.



So adapting to our own sound is for sure real. But since there are always favorite rooms at shows, and super popular gear that many fall for, etc, I get that we have different tastes and conditioning, but these common loves indicate we also have common human tendencies that are more universal. My guess is that lots of us may be heading roughly for similar natural sound qualities, roughly...  but since we get there in wildly variable ways due to system and room complexities, and always starting wherever we are, it is finally hard to gauge what is best for each system/room.

And this points to another consideration. Compensation. Especially once our systems get more refined, seems issues that come up may not just be the sound of what is new and being worked on. For me, those things that challenge me, but remain compelling as something that will bring up the whole, are pointers to adjust them, but also to reevaluate and refine other system tuning..... Tricky though, as even if we have been super careful not to get off the many balances in our journey, we can grow used to being off as "normal," tricking ourselves. So though difficult, I have come to appreciate compelling challenges in integrating really good new things.


I could go on about this, but I have already taken up too much of your thread... just saying that especially in refined systems that show most everything, a potentially great component could sound off, especially before burnin and refinements of feet, cables, tubes... in part from revealing base system issues we did not notice. In my case, this DAC is leaning warm/euphonic, and in yours, your DAC so far leaning bright and coolish. I suspect these are both true. But how they are causing our systems to change could perhaps be amplified by previously unnoticed issues from sound developments that were inadvertent compensations from integrating past changes and gear. I know for me, this DAC as I have been tuning it, has caused me to improve other components. And as my system/room gets better, this has become somewhat common for me.



The second thing I thought of when you said you would get Odam base caps, was that this is a really good cap, likely creating the need for at least the larger toning bypasses to be really good in order to improve the Odams. So I think you are on a good track looking at Miflex KPCUs to bring up your value, likely making the V-Caps pleasantly more complex. But not knowing how the Sprague Q sound as small bypasses... they may be great, or they may bring the whole down. Still, pretty cheap, so not a big deal... and like you say, experiments will tell the tale. It does always shock me when I give it attention, that for very small bypasses, low cost Mallory 150s have so far consistantly been my favorite in electronics, regardless of cost, my go to caps no matter what is under them. But based on your interest, I did do some low key sound research and ordered a few spragues to check out, always on the lookout!



Final thought for me, the Odam being a really good cap, and if you find yourself liking a value near 2.7, this quality base cap might allow you to go directly to classic bypassing for speed and finer detail with a .022 Miflex KPCU, and perhaps a .0022 Sprague on that for a first try.

Or if you end up preferring being in the 3.3 range, choose a 2.7 Odam base, and go with the Chinese made 0.47 CU oil....especially if both are really good caps, I am thinking it probably won't matter that your basis is not fully 3.3, and again, you could likely go directly to a 0.022 KPCU without a 0.1, and then a very low value sprague.

BTW, Hificollective is currently out of 0.1 KPCU like you have marked on the Ali-Express page, but they are a lot cheaper at Hificollective, and the 0.1 is the only one they are out of. There is shipping, why I tend to sort of stock up there when I do shop, but check out the prices.

Also, dealing directly with Chris @ VHAudio is good I think, supporting his work... and the shopping cart creating better prices as you go from one cap to more. Also he has been around a long time and done a lot of experimenting, so a good resource.

Onward. Have fun tonight and tomorrow with your DAC experiments and listening!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/24/25 at 20:25:33



Great discussion on all things caps and upgrades recently. I wish I had some words of wisdom on these topics but not being a DIY guy, (at this level at least) I can only sit back and learn. I think the information is great and may help when and if I bite the bullet and attempt some changes of my own.




Thanks for the reply Chipster.

The words of wisdom that you can contribute are upon your experiences with that high-end DAC that you own, with the use of a high end transport.  I think we would all be interested in your upcoming music evaluations with the custom recordings I sent you. Both with/ and without the C9 in the loop.  I think that you just might enlighten a few audiophiles with what you disclose.

I hope that these recordings have been working out well for you in your system. I for one am looking forward to your results.

Yes, do keep focusing on what develops on this thread. I think many people could, and most likely will, benefit from the discoveries which Will, Dom, myself, and others are learning through our continued experimentation.  I know that this data is helping me tremendously in my endeavor.

As for the 6dj8 tubes. I always used the 6922 variants which are intended to be more dynamic. Always liked these, and never actually tried swapping with the 6dj8's before. I am so glad that I made this choice, and with such great quality design. I took a chance on these old tubes, and I am so fortunate that I made that decision. This tube alone propelled me from mediocrity to that of "esoteric" high end sound.

Since you already have a set of the REAL Amperex tubes from Holland (1969), then you have what may even be better than my set which is questionable as to the actual tube design. Since mine is obviously relabeled like a factory would do for another manufacturer in products, it is possible that mine may have been tooled as a clone of the Holland made tubes. I don't know. Without hearing an authentic set such as yours , then comparing the sound between yours and mine, I have nothing to go on for direct analysis.

What I can tell you is that these are the finest signal tubes that I have ever experienced. At any rate, I don't care what Soviet tube production facility created these, which are simply marvelous to say the least! It would be interesting to know the history as to how this strangely marked tube came about, and what it's intended purpose was. I will give some great advice here which I can't stress enough.

The dealer still has a few sets of these tubes left in the original boxes. If you want to hear something that will give you that "OH S..T" moment of clarity and sonic purity at a price which is crazy low for a tube of this quality, then see if you can get a set before they are gone. These have been an absolute game changer for my DAC.

As a matter of fact, I would be smart to order another set for future needs. I think I just might do that. Forget the new 6922 tubes. This set provides a musical quality which I never expected from just a simple tube change, not by any degree.  Let's just say that my proverbial "jaw" hit the floor so hard that I may have chipped a tooth, just sitting there in utter amazement to what I was hearing. Yes, I am completely sold on the use of quality 6dj8 tubes! I am thankful beyond words that I found this set of tubes.



I just hope it's used exclusively for the betterment of mankind. (what's the chances of that though?)  


I think we all know where this advancement is going in the future. My speculation of that growth will not make it easy to sleep at night. This new technology is backed, and most likely funded for support of D.A.R.P.A. for their immediate needs moving forward in their advanced projects. Considering what the basis of that agency is, that alone reinforces the fact that we are not going to be better off by these future developments. Everything today is based upon who has the leading edge when it comes to the "pre-emptive strike".

This is not a simulation exercise in the cyber-world anymore. AI is the core basis which soon will control everything that mankind does, making our decisions for us, eventually just ruling out the need for our very existence. Just give this a mere ten years of advancement, then we shall see just how good this technology really is for mankind. Big Brother carries a very big stick with laser sharp focus.

The absolute result of technological singularity.


Anyway, back to the essence of audio based singularity, let's move forward and see what has been happening lately. In this case, a context in which a small change can cause a large effect.  And that is what we strive to find here.


Will, thanks for the info concerning the Fry-baby device. All required is right here. So you see that a diy cheap version can easily be made for this purpose. At the retail price for a unit, this is well worth the cost. I can see one of these in the near future on my bench.















I would like to hear your impressions when you get around to testing the Vcap ODAM caps. With both of us using these as a test bed, we can compare notes on a similar basis.  I am excited about trying these out in the combo which you suggested. That sounds like a concrete plan to experiment with. I have a feeling this will be top level. Time will tell.

The Mallory bypass caps are something I will have to order and try out since they are cheap, yet very effective as you noted. There is no loss in trying these with such a minor cost factor. They are like gold if they make things sound better.


I had a huge epiphany the night that I listened to the system with ONLY the tube upgrade.

This was so much so that  I was going through a range of emotional feelings which kind of just shook my senses.

I deliberately waited to express my thoughts of this because I didn't want to come off as sounding crazy or over expressive due to my newfound joy.  I was not expecting this level of advancement with merely a tube change. It really caught me off guard, creating a believer out of me when we talk about the critical factor of things being absolutely dependent upon the right degree of synergy and balance.  The "right" tube absolutely makes a profound difference. This experience proved to me this being solidified in stone as a cold hard fact of reality.

We can see how the technical balance between tubes and capacitors relate with such a similar foundation in regards to possible combinations, and the final outcome in sound perception. There is simply no question as to this relevance. Anyone that says these things don't make a difference, are those with mediocre systems and most likely, zero to no acoustical treatment in place.

We have to make sure that bad room acoustics, and other substandard components do not get in the way of hearing just how far the quality of these upgrades can really be revealed.


What I have revealed in just the last few weeks of upgrade modifications have become a complete revelation for me in what I have gained.


JB, .....what you experienced with my system is almost a joke in comparison to what I have achieved in my recent progress. I expect things as a whole, to continue evolving into something simply spectacular in the near future. I hope for this to be as good, or perhaps even better, than anything previously experienced in the world of high end audio of past.

I have auditioned professional listening rooms at boutique dealers who sell the likes of McIntosh, Mark Levinson, Krell, Cary Audio, etc....using high end exotic speakers such as those made by Wilson Audio. In those day's, this grade of equipment was created for the wealthy who don't have to ask what the cost is.  Certainly only something I could dream of owning at the very best. But I remember how these professional grade audio systems sounded, and that is my aim of perfection, at least as a reference.

That is a tough act to follow, if not an impossible one.  But at any rate, I use it as a reference.

The best DAC/CD player I ever owned as to reference quality sound, was the highly regarded British made ARCAM Alpha 9 dCS RING DAC back around 2003. Back then, it was regarded among the world's best players.

Other than that, I owned players offered by Decware, with the conversion of the Tascam CD200, and also the Sony SACD player, modified with simple tube stage buffers.

I loved the sound of the Tascam model, but had reservations about the Sony. My path was not with digital sound accuracy (thinking of the ill effects of jitter, along with a sterile opamp), no, certainly was not that interested.  My path was mostly focused upon high end turntable systems and high quality vinyl as my source of enjoyment. After spending tens of thousands of dollars on that venture, I will not get that deep into audio again. I simply will never be able too at my age now.  All of that is in the past. I am content with what I have currently. Things are on the right track.


Thanks for the tip concerning HIFI collective. I will be watching out for the caps being in stock in the near future.

I am not ruling out the Chinese copper foil/oil caps as of yet. I am very curious as to how they actually sound. Perhaps in a month or so, I will order some to test with. This just may prove to be something worthwhile. I just feel that my gut instinct concerning the V-cap ODAM's are the best way to go in the long run. But who knows, that awaits proof within the listening.

The (.033uf @ 200v, K40Y-9 Russian Caps Four (4x) New Old Stock - Paper In Oil, 0.033) delivered today. I just have to go get them from the mailbox. So I have these now to experiment with. The (VITAMIN Q CAPACITOR 0.082uF/200V ~ VINTAGE ~ PIO ~ GUITAR TONE ~ NOS~ 196P) caps are expected to deliver tomorrow.


So I have some things to tinker with.


Before I sign out, just want to state that I am very excited and pleased with the results I have gained in just the last few days.

Sunday morning, I removed the stock Solen caps, and installed the ERSE MPX (pulse series) base cap 3 uf plus the Sprauge Vitamin Q PIO 0.10uf 196P series caps into the mix.




















The results are very rewarding.  I shall save my evaluation impression of this until the next time I return. I have a great deal to reveal about this. Everything is moving forward with light speed. I am not turning back!

So the experiment rolls onward.


Wile E Coyote found a few tricks in the ACME pile.

[smiley=tunes57.gif]


Oh, as for the length of information being posted, don't ever feel limited on this thread as long as you are contributing valuable information pertinent to this particular diy enhancement. Will, you go ahead and offer as much as you like. It is well accepted.


See you soon.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Tony on 02/24/25 at 20:41:31

I was unsure if this was the best location for another post on the Carver C-9, but it seems like a good spot since I read about it here a few months ago. I recently bought one online that had been rebuilt by 4krow not too long ago. I was surprised that his first post introducing the C-9 on this forum dates back to 2010. Here is what the C-9 does:

"Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram Generator:

1. This device enhances the stereo image, creating a broader, three-dimensional soundstage.

2. It works by manipulating the phase and timing of audio signals to cancel out crosstalk between the left and right speakers.

3. It's about creating a sense of "imaging" and "soundstage."

As soon as I played it, I liked what I heard. There was no loss of SQ (my initial concern before hearing one) and a much broader and more three-dimensional soundstage. At the end of an enjoyable first evening, I thought the next day I would probably switch back to my familiar audio sound by simply pressing a button on the C-9 that eliminates its effect. The next day, however, I kept it in the chain for the rest of the weekend.

I like this unit and kudos to those who mentioned it earlier. I did not know its contribution would be so enjoyable and significant. Should I find it only a passing fancy, I can quickly return to the original sound with just a push of a button next week, or next month, or…

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/24/25 at 23:32:38
RPS.

Nice your tubes and caps (and opamp removal) have changed the story in beautiful ways! As I pointed to earlier, tube types make a big differences in my DAC output, more so than in front of power tubes like in your Torii. Sounds like it could be the same with your DAC...

Mine seems to finally be getting more fully burned in, and the tuning I have done on it and other components is coming together. Sounding so good now, and knowing this sound, I am not in a hurry to pick up Odams, but I will report back if I do. Not sure what will happen next, enjoying the settling sound now, but probably keeping more-or-less the current output cap set in, and doing a little more power supply work, and maybe a little work on the output board caps.


Tubes... I guess I have hundreds picked up over lots of years, mostly bought to explore fine-tuning Decware, so a lot of certain types that fit my Toriis, CSP3, and tuning boxes. I have not tried all out there by any means, but I have heard and used a lot of them, so some thoughts:


Quote:
Since mine is obviously relabeled like a factory would do for another manufacturer in products, it is possible that mine may have been tooled as a clone of the Holland made tubes.

....

Quote:
At any rate, I don't care what Soviet tube production facility created these, which are simply marvelous to say the least! It would be interesting to know the history as to how this strangely marked tube came about, and what it's intended purpose was.


Of all the Amperex-Holland tubes I have seen, looking at the shape and construction of the tube you bought, I feel pretty confident saying it is not an Amperex "clone," more an unknown to us Russian tube type that has been labelled Amperex 6DJ8.

I am not necessarily interested in the facility they were made in either, though that could be valuable information if it remains a great tube after trying others. Looking just at the Russian 6N23P type from different companies and different vintages, you will see different bottle shapes and interior constructions....  So the type can be family in sound, all being 6N23Ps, but also all sound different based on construction, materials, and vintages. Just like E88CC/6922s, I have some pairs similar in sound to others, but I don't think I have heard two pairs sound just alike, and many sound quite different from one another. So type, construction, facility and vintage clearly matter.

More examples, I have used ECC88s and PCC88s almost exclusively in my Toriis, finding E88CC/6922 a little strong there in my setting. But more than any, I used ECC88 and variants, and my favs of those are from the early 60s (or perhaps late 50s for a few), and all have similar bottle shapes and hallow getters.... Still the constructions are different between those made by Siemens-Germany, Amperex-Holland, and Mullard-England and that is reflected in the sounds, each of these three having distinguishable sonic qualities based on what can seem like pretty minor variations in the designs, materials, etc.... the Mullards tend darker/fuller, Amperex Holland, pretty open and neutral, and Siemens their own clean variation of open neutral. To me, each is notably different enough to matter in tuning tube sets. I also have some Siemens and Mullards from that time and those designs, but they are labelled CBS, or RCA, in this case, Siemens and Mullard made tubes labelled for the US companies.

A step further, Russian 6.3 volt small signal tubes like 6N1Ps and 6N23Ps, different Russian tube types, similarly as 6DJ8 and 6922 are different tube types here... and though people might say these Russian tubes can be 6DJ8 and 6922 substitutes, the Russians clearly developed their tubes in their own ways, general construction styles pretty different, so they tend to have their own sound that one could say is similar to 6DJ8 and 6922s, but also not.... Finally, each of these four types could be considered similar, but have different, individual sound characteristics.

So I am thinking that, especially if you continue to love this tube, narrowing down what it actually was before being labelled Amperex, could be good for future reference, and who knows you may love different makes and vintages of the same type in your DAC. Lots of Russian signal tubes are abundant and low cost still, mainly only pretty narrow groups of certain types and vintages having become more popular, and reflecting that with more cost.

Really glad you are finding your sound with these changes... more to come no doubt with more burnin and other tuning play! Have fun!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 02/26/25 at 03:51:48
RPS,

I certainly plan on sharing my experience with the C-9 now that I have the C-9 back from 4krow after modifications. I've been letting it settle in for a while and I should be able to shed some light on my findings shortly. My main source (streamer/DAC) was out of commission for a little bit, but I have that back in the mix as well. I'm finally able to do some real focused listening. Between the large number of CD's you sent me, and streaming, I'm able to get a pretty good handle on how things sound with and without the C-9 in the mix.

Tony,
I'm hoping to start a thread on my experience with the C-9 and I invite you to chime in if you can with your experience at some point. It would be great to compare notes with all users of the C-9 and get feedback on likes and possible dislikes. Anyone who wants to share information on the topic will be more than welcome.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Tony on 02/26/25 at 04:16:29

Will do.  Tonight I have been going back and forth between listening with the C-9 activated, then off. Both conditions sound very good as expected. It's the change in sound stage, width and depth, that the C-9 adds.

Tony

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/27/25 at 04:50:11
So I am thinking that, especially if you continue to love this tube, narrowing down what it actually was before being labelled Amperex, could be good for future reference, and who knows you may love different makes and vintages of the same type in your DAC.


Will, I could not be more pleased with another tube. This tube is so incredibly involving with the ability to draw you into the music with absolute finesse and artistic appeal. The sound quality of this tube reminds me of the more laid back presentation which a 6dj8 would provide, yet holding a great reserve in dynamics like a 6922 tube would provide, when demanded from power hungry transient responses.

I compare this firm degree of control to that of a well designed Class A amplifier with an abundance of power on tap, just quietly sitting at the ready for that huge power demand to show what it is capable of, while idling by on the relaxed side of things during the rest of the musical passage.

When this tube delivers, it does so with authority, yet with subtle caress as it portrays the musical passage. What is so revealing is the inner fine detail, those intricate complexities which seem to float openly within compiled layers of texture within the harmonic overtones. It is difficult with lesser grade systems to hear such pure effortless depth and transparency within musical overtones, as clearly and pronounced as what I am hearing now with these tubes. And this was only by changing the tubes. (although this is not as evident as what's to come) It gets much better.

I will have to reflect back upon the quality of my acoustical environment, and state that this really sets the platform for which this degree of musical quality can easily be revealed. I doubt that the results would be the same in a normal untreated room. My listening space is fully equipped with professional grade components, extremely effective in their design and purpose. The music confirms this to a very high degree of acceptance.

Finally, I have a listening space that doesn't get into the way of the music! Making changes to the sound signature are revealed in stark naked reality, noticeable at any rate of influence.

The stock sub-standard Solen caps are still in place during this time.  To think that I am hearing this level of  detail with less than stellar capacitors in place, and with very limited break-in time, I can only imagine what is to be revealed with high quality capacitors balanced correctly, leading this DAC into major high end territory.

I consider this tube design to be one of the best kept secrets in audio. It truly is a gem of extreme value. I don't recall ever being taken back to this degree of surprise from a simple tube change before. The only other tubes that made this much of a difference to me was that of the re-tooled Mullard EL34 power tubes made in Russia by New Sensor, as the owner of the British Mullard tube rights.

I never heard the original British Mullard designs, but I will tell you this, as magical and smooth as these are, I find it hard to imagine something better. I have used Svetlana, Electro-Harmonix, and other well respected Russian tubes, but they did not compare with these in my system on the same level.  But we all know how these things can surprise us. I absolutely love the sound of the re-tooled Russian versions of the Mullard EL34. I find no reason to look elsewhere. The same goes for the signature I get with the Electro-Harmonix 5U4GBEH rectifiers. You know when something sounds "just right" with every type of musical genre, then you are satisfied.

This combination I find the most musically convincing of any other combination I have tried in the past with the Torii designs. Again, I find this sound so near perfect that I simply don't need to look elsewhere. This is like having a beautiful young wife with a PHD in physics, and wondering what another similar woman might be like having a PHD in chemistry. I guess it depends upon personal taste and desire. That seems to always be the factor in audio.

At any rate, the current combination of tube synergy within my system, provides the perfect balance that I desire.

This new DAC tube stage completely sets the bar for something that will blow the lid off anything I had in the past, at least from a digital perspective. This set of "unknown" mystery tubes are the core "reactor" as the driving force.

I will get into the sound of these tubes more when I begin evaluating this DAC with high quality music formats.
(I already have, just not ready to disclose the results at this time due to expanded trials of capacitors) I think you get the drift as to where the focus of this sound quality is going. Now with proper tubes in place, I can accurately find the right balance within my capacitor testing. It is pointless otherwise.

I thought my ZERO DAC sounded pretty good. It does for using a dual OPA627 opamp stage, but this is no comparison for what I am hearing now. These two DACS are like two different worlds. I am comparing apples to oranges here, but you see my point. I am not going to return to the solid state output stage after hearing the magic which this tube stage provides.  So much closer to the audio truth. Analog reference being that truth.


I will be going over my latest changes and results shortly in a upcoming post. I am rapidly making strong advances with my current configuration. During the initial burn in process, this new DAC architecture is reacting like an out of control roller coaster ride. But things are much better now. Little "Goddess-Zilla" has been an unruly little B***h!  I will break her under my control. I am hearing stability now.


This is the frustration I imagine as one tries to break a new wild mustang in the corral while trying to avoid getting trampled to death in the process.

[smiley=happy.gif]


I am feeling very confident going forward with what I have now, plus the proposed future addition of the Vcap ODAM in conjunction with the copper foil in oil cap design. The addition of the Miflex bypass will come later, but soon. I am looking at this combo with logical perspective which provides flexibility along with overall satisfaction to meeting my "sonic" goal. Of course, there will be fine tuning required, but within this mix to a minor degree. As the saying goes, everything is subject to change.

After considerable thought, I am thinking that I should go with a 2.2uf V-cap, combined with the well reviewed Chinese copper foil/oil caps filling out the range @ 1uf. This being a factor of 3.2uf as a base, I have plenty of room for flexibility using various "tone" caps to get the balance just the way I want it. I have heard the Russian PIO caps and I am really impressed by what these have done to the overall sound so far. This way, I can take the base cap down to the 2.2uf rating and expand from there.

I had an overly bright and sharp high frequency response after I replaced the Solen caps with the ERSE pulse caps in conjunction with the Sprague 0.10uf Vitamin Q paper in oil tone cap. It was like blowing the roof off and exposing the sky above. Just too bright and way too sharp. The detailed presence of the upper registers became much more revealing, leaving nothing unexposed. This became a tell all for recordings which were recorded too hot in the high range.  

As a result, this DAC sound signature became very subjective as to music genre limitations. No longer was this sound "universal" for all music genres. Anything like an electric guitar playing high notes as in high energy rock was not tolerable. It was not distorted or unresolved, the high pitch was simply too hard on my hearing. I have better hearing potential than I thought. This new DAC has exposed my actual auditory perception. I have lost nothing in pitch changes. The only thing I lost was what failed to be revealed in the recording. That is a thing of the past.

For an example, the second Boston album was based upon high energy guitar sound along with real cathedral type organ pipes. That sound energy is intense, an intensity which can get out of control with the wrong system. With a system and acoustical space such as what I am working with can be very brutal when something is amiss. Everything gets revealed, good or bad. This reminded me of the sonic torture I endured working around the shrill F-15 engine intakes back in the 1980's during launch and recovery. Very loud and taxing on the ears to say the least.

But, on the flip side, here is the positive side of this new sonic signature. What I have now is the ultimate platform for Classical music. Especially the realistic sound of a grand piano playing solo. What is exposed within the overtones of each key is mind boggling to say the least. The exposure to this depth of detail and intricacy which is quite noticeable within the key elements of the piano are something to be admired with complete awe if you are unaware of it. I have extreme upper extension now. Great for piano (absolutely stunning!), but bad for most other music.

Okay, so I have adjustments to make. I need to bring this high level energy into balance. This going into the next stage of upgrade mods.

*On a side note: the funny thing is this before I made the first cap change, with the Solen caps still in place using the new tubes, the sound had a nice even balance along the frequency range (although it was not as revealing of transparency as what should be heard). A full powerful low energy presence, a full and smooth mid-range, and a decent high frequency limit that did not get out of control.

What was missing however, was the intricate detail from the higher registers as well as a loss in high frequency openness. I would say that throughout the entire range, there was a good deal of masking and coloration going on. The sound was good, but not great. I was surprised by the sonic strength that I heard. It did well in that regard.

Overall, the sound was acceptable for the most part, but obviously masking much of what should be heard with inner detail. I noticed some questionable results coming from the bass strings, as the bass notes were a bit smeared and out of focus. The mid-range was acceptable, and overall, the music was pleasing, regardless of what I listened to. That was about to incur a drastic change.


Obviously, those substandard caps have to go. They were getting the soundscape dirty.

So, the trial and error begins. Let's throw our hat into the ring and see where this goes. The first test performed with the ERSE main caps, bypassed with the Vitamin Q 0.10 tone caps. The four 0.22uf WIMA caps are still untouched at this point.

So I told you what the result of that change was. There is still much work to do, but we have major change in
play. Extreme detail and presence is heard throughout the entire range, but the music is on steroids and it needs to be tamed down in the upper regions. It is as if someone turned the treble control to maximum and cranked the amp to ten on the dial.  If all I ever listened to was piano, acoustic guitar, and wind instruments, then I would love the way it is now. But I can't be that restricted in my music selections.

The next phase which will attempt to correct for this issue of unbalanced, over emphasized treble comes into play.

I only had the new Russian K40Y-9 0.033uf paper in oil bypass caps handy at this time. I still have not received the smaller values as of yet. So, I thought, why not. I went ahead and soldered these in place along all six capacitor locations as bypass caps.

So now, I have the ERSE pulse cap as the base, with the same Sprague Vitamin Q 0.10uf PIO bypass cap. But now, I added a Russian K40Y-9 0.033uf paper in oil bypass cap along that combination. I didn't stop there.

I decided to solder one of these Russian bypass caps along each of the four 0.22uf WIMA caps on the bottom of the board. The WIMA's are still in place. Now I have 0.25uf along each of these WIMA capacitors with a slight increase in value.

Not sure if this was going to be that noticeable, but it was the only option I had available. I had a feeling that the stock WIMA caps might be a part of the high treble I was getting. The only way to find out is to see if this mod makes any audible change, hopefully for the better.


Now I do want to make clear that by this time, I have about fourty+ hours of playing time on the new DAC configuration (minus the additional Russian bypass caps). This could have very well been enough burn in time to stabilize the other caps and tubes to something more subdued. Perhaps, but I doubt enough to make things really better this soon. I would say that it did help some.

Images of these mods will be posted shortly.

So off I go to the audio room to evaluate this DAC again. I am thinking, this sucks, most likely won't be much better. Now I have to wait until I get better caps to enjoy music again. It is always good not to expect too much from such a small change. When something good happens, the result seems far more significant.

With that in mind, I let the system play for a couple of hours and came back to listen. I can't tolerate any more of that high frequency torture.


So I want to take it easy and play something mild. I know that if this doesn't secure my acceptance, then going on will be most likely pointless until better caps can be used.

I played the ultra high end audiophile LPCD 45II M2 Master recording of Moussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition, which includes the Ravel version as well. This came from the Mercury Living Presence label which was recorded back in 1959 (Russia) through 1961(USA). There are many variations of this theme on the disc. The main edition is that of Byron Janis playing solo piano of this title. Just piano, nothing else. This is a direct from master tape 1:1 transfer void of any external contamination, noise shaping, filtering, compression, or limiting by any degree. Straight and raw recording without manipulation, just as perfect as possible next to the master tape. What you hear is stunning by way of realistic sound quality. These are very special recordings to say the least.

It depends upon the quality of your audio system as to how much of this is really perceived. I love it when guys with mediocre systems, and no acoustical treatment try something out like this, then pass it off as a joke because they could not tell the difference.  Seems pretty typical in the world of audio. I have read posts where guys state that these are no better than any other recording. The only problem is that they have a bad system which can't express it within the music. And if it did, the bad room acoustics put the final nail in the coffin. It just isn't going to happen.


continued next post....

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/27/25 at 05:01:19









But for those of us who DO have quality systems and high end acoustics, the results are very favorable, and absolutely superior to anything else other than the actual master tape. A high end 200 gram vinyl version of this would be a touch better if the playback system is top notch ( the degree of such is debatable depending on who you ask).  Pretty much takes at least a ten grand investment to get to that level with vinyl compared with a world class DAC with today's technology.  I am fine with a high quality DAC and a great recording on disc. I absolutely do understand the difference through experience.

Chances are that you may not have heard the delicate, yet stunning sound of a grand piano like this before unless you attend a live performance and are in close range. What you hear within the complexities of sound overlays between keys is absolutely astonishing when you can actually hear this clearly with effortless definition. The sound of each key really promotes a profound fondness of the piano. That initial bold strike, followed by layers of distinct tone emanating between keys is really something special to hear.


On a grand piano, the musician has these tone controls for emphasizing the notes played as follows:

First, there is the "sustain" pedal. this is used as a damper control. the purpose is to lengthen the sound of notes by lifting the dampers from the strings. When you hear a rich empowering sound emanating from the piano, this is a result of this pedal being used.

Another pedal is used to sustain notes currently played when the pedal is pressed. This function perpetuates a long note extension, still playing out as other notes are played through its presence.

There is one more pedal which acts as another damper device. It too extends the time signature of a note by manipulation of the damper contact with the strings. The creation of full bodied sound is possible with the use of this tone device. The other unique feature of it's purpose is to allow a softer delicate presence to the musical note for which a key is struck.

So these are the tonal structures which definitely stand out when a recording is excellent, and your system a has the ability to portray it accurately.

I believe that Steinway uses only select grade Sitka Spruce for their soundboards due to the special tonal balance which that species is known for.

I have always favored piano and acoustic guitar, especially the sound signature of  the Ovation models. They have a unique sound unlike any other guitar. My other favored guitar sound is the signature sound played by Lindsey Buckingham with Fleetwood Mac using a Rick Turner Model 1 guitar. You always knew when he was playing that model. It stands apart from anything else out there.

I absolutely love that sound signature. I think that was a major part as to the success of the Rumour's album, or Fleetwood Mac in general. That and the fact that they are a great band of musicians, and this was truly a masterpiece of material. When it comes to electric, my favorite sound is that of the Fender Telecaster. Gibson surely holds a large degree of acceptance here as well.

Those are the tones which I like to fine tune to the fullest extent. For me, there is nothing more complex and captivating than a duo of classical piano and violin. Perhaps a Cello thrown in for good measure. When I am in the mood, a long session of pipe organ music is something I enjoy when the likes of Bach are played.  A great cathedral recording can really take you there if you close your eyes and imagine it. If you have the power, and a low enough frequency response, that is where the excitement unfolds.  

Music is meant to be felt, not just heard.

So, back on track. I always love when this happens.  As I walked into the room and began to close off the sound reduction door system followed by the placement of corner acoustical devices to get ready for a listening session, I was tuning in to what was being played indirectly. I had the same music disc playing constant loop on low level. I was prepared to be disappointed. At least I wouldn't be disappointed if that were the case, at least in a literal sense.

I was thinking, this actually sounds much better than it did yesterday, and by a large degree. I wasn't detecting that sharp overreach into the high treble region. Okay, great. Time to put this thing to the test.

So with the audiophile grade recording of Pictures At An Exhibition, solo piano version, I placed the volume setting at a normal level and sat down. I hit play on the remote and waited for it.  Oh, things are getting good again, so good, that it is hard to believe what I heard yesterday with the same disc. I'm thinking, is it really possible to solve this issue with high frequency brightness with simply a small bypass capacitor? I really had my doubts that this much of a difference could have taken place with the Russian K40Y-9 0.033uf paper in oil capacitor bypassing the other two capacitors.

Look, as hard as it is to imagine this, it really happened, and I am experiencing that major change now. Not only was I really enjoying everything I heard in this recording, but it was as good as anything I ever experienced before in an audio system. This really brings out the best of my custom speaker design. I really outdid myself when I designed and built this set. These are something very special indeed.

Let's just say that after I finished listening to this recording, I was questioning whether or not it was necessary to go forward with any more changes. But I know better than that. I think that most people would have been satisfied to stop right here. I however do realize that there are special characteristics awaiting within the music that are yet to unfold.

It is that final voicing which I seek to unlock what lies hidden for which the right combination of capacitors will flush out of the music. That is the goal I am on track to achieve. Once I do, then the C9 will be placed back into the loop for the full gamut of musical enjoyment.

Now I should mention that I listened to a couple more selections which spread the frequency balance upward quite a bit more as well as the lower registers.  I listened to classical solo acoustic guitar for a few passages, then put in the Jethro Tull Live orchestra recording that I talked about hearing the very first time I listened to this DAC with the Chinese 6n11 tubes in place.

As you recall, I said that it did not sound bad overall, it was actually enjoyable, however limited and certainly not ideal. Those 6n11 tubes were really not the right choice for this DAC. Considering that the DAC was fresh with zero burn-in time, it is a miracle that it even sounded pleasant at all. Now with the OPAMP output stage, this was completely the opposite. I tried for several nights to let that version burn in and start to sound better. That was a horrible experience which I don't care to hear again. That was all it took to bypass this directly to the tube buffer stage. There is no turning back.

What I heard last night with this recording was so much more refined, incredible detail which flowed effortlessly around the room. This live recording has exceptional presence which provides a very large 180 degree soundstage around the front portion of the room. If you close your eyes. it is easy to imagine being there, at that actual live event as it took place in real time.

I will say without reservation, that the result of this latest mod has brought out something really special within the music. Everything is so much more relaxed and captivating to the senses. Now I have not tried to play something with really intense high frequency information such as the second Boston album, but so far, I am really impressed with what I hear in the music. I am close, just not quite there yet. But as we all know, there are no limitations to a sonic signature. There is always room for enhancement.

For something of low frequency enrichment with a pleasant female voice, I played the final selection, that being a custom selection of songs from SADE. If you love strong bass, conjured by an alluring element to the music brought on by her voice, then this is your choice.  This is such a powerful soundscape. The Sony production of these studio recordings are as good as almost anything I've heard, whether special audiophile pressings, or not. The studio quality is absolutely superb with her recordings.

The tonal element within these songs will place you in a very comfortable setting within your mind. Every note, from every instrument, every syllable of her voice, everything period, is as clear and open as music could ever hope to be. Kudos on the studio engineer who produced these titles. This person should be producing everybody's work. Very special indeed.

The bass lines are silky smooth, with every note easily discernible from the next. The overtones that resonate between each full note is something to behold with the decay of each "partial".  I detect some very strong "attack and release" energy going on here. Seems to be very articulate, which indicates a strong sense of speed within the music getting out of the way of itself. The underlying texture of this music goes deep within it's presence. You feel every note with absolute distinction and acceptance. As for the upper frequency extension, nothing to note here except absolute excellence with not a hint of anything amiss. I did however detect a presence of "air" in the background which gave the music a sense of life. "Atmosphere" if you will.

So in all, I have to say that things turned around. It is hard for me to believe this much change so soon, but this is where I am at for this stage of trial and error.

What these small changes can do to the overall sound of music is astonishing at times. This really does make a believer out of you. I am going to find that hidden goal. It just takes time and experimentation.


See you on the other side.


[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/27/25 at 05:36:45


Hey Tony, thank you very much for posting this info concerning the C9 here.



I think that Chipster has some upcoming information relating to this unit with actual music reviews in the near future. When he does, be sure to participate on his ongoing thread. I as well as others will most likely post info about this unit there as well.

So welcome to our little elite C9 holography club. We are growing. With your continued support as well as what 4Krow and Chipster are doing about promoting it's value, I can see even more hard core audiophiles taking a chance on this unit due to curiosity. Just ask JB about his experience. There is a pattern here.

The more people who get on board with complete satisfaction, the more that will follow. If I had any influence upon your decision, then that makes me very pleased to know that I exposed you to something great that perhaps you may never have tried.

It sounds like you have agreed with the general consensus here concerning the necessity of the C9, and why it makes your music sound so special.

All I can say is this to anyone reading this and has even a hint of curiosity concerning what holography will do to transform your listening experience, just look at the record here.

Now 4Krow has been promoting this unit for many years. Other than him, I set out to convince as many people as I could to at least try this technology out and see for themselves. So far, there are at least four or five of us not including 4krow that are recent undertakers of this technology. I had this circuit in my Carver equipment way back in 1986. It is not new to me. I have just been absent from it's use for many years. I am so glad to have it back.

If you may, it would be nice to know about your audio system and your acoustic architecture. Perhaps you could discuss that a bit on Chipster's new thread. It would be nice to hear your impressions of the C9 with various music.



Hey Chipster, looking forward to your new thread!


This should be interesting.



[smiley=dankk2.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 02/27/25 at 06:49:24



This is the underside of the DAC board. You see the bypass connector which leads strait out to the tube stage.






This was how the stock unit looked when shipped. These are the low grade Solen capacitors in place here.





This was the first major upgrade, replacing the poor EI style transformer with a much more robust high quality toroidal design for the tube stage power supply. This design has three sets of secondaries. Currently, I am only using one. Plenty of clean stable power here.





This is the second and third stage of major upgrades showing the new tubes and "initial" capacitor upgrade experiment with the first bypass cap installed. That is a 3uf ERSE pulse series cap with a Sprague Vitamin Q 0.10uf PIO bypass cap for the first test.


































And now for some images showing the most recent upgrade with six Russian K40Y-9 .033uf bypass caps soldered along all six capacitors on board which include the four 0.22uf WIMA caps.



































More upgrades to follow soon.


I shall return.


[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 02/27/25 at 11:54:32
Tony et all.

Welcome to the Carver C-9 gang. I do agree with your experience of the unit in the Decware chain. Good recordings sound 3D played with or without the C-9. The C-9 adds depth on those not recorded as well and definitely will make the speakers look as an accent piece of furniture-the boundless sound becomes the focal point.

Interesting talk on capacitors.

I have been busy with an unexpected event when a deer did not look both ways before crossing the interstate the other night. Trashed my new car. Now trying to replace it. Doing 65mph the impact was not really felt. Did not even have time to apply brakes! Hit the deer dead center. Subrau got their act together when it comes to protecting occupants!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by CAJames on 02/27/25 at 18:01:32



Quote:
Posted by: red pill sanctuary      Posted on: Yesterday at 21:01:19

But for those of us who DO have quality systems and high end acoustics, the results are very favorable, and absolutely superior to anything else other than the actual master tape. A high end 200 gram vinyl version of this would be a touch better if the playback system is top notch ( the degree of such is debatable depending on who you ask).  Pretty much takes at least a ten grand investment to get to that level with vinyl compared with a world class DAC with today's technology.  I am fine with a high quality DAC and a great recording on disc. I absolutely do understand the difference through experience.

Chances are that you may not have heard the delicate, yet stunning sound of a grand piano like this before unless you attend a live performance and are in close range. What you hear within the complexities of sound overlays between keys is absolutely astonishing when you can actually hear this clearly with effortless definition. The sound of each key really promotes a profound fondness of the piano. That initial bold strike, followed by layers of distinct tone emanating between keys is really something special to hear...


Long time lurker, first time poster in this thread. I have to comment on this recording, which I have on a humble 16/44 CD and it is amazing, both the performance and sonics. I'm not much of a pianist but back in the day there was a Bosendorfer Imperial Concert Grand hanging around our youth orchestra rehearsal rooms and I remember very well "the complexities of sound overlays between keys" as I hammered out Fur Elise on it. This recording comes as close as any to duplicating that experience, and my room would perhaps rate a "gentleman's C" from the treatment authorities. One of my favorite demo albums, and Byron Janis plays Pictures with what I can only call stupefying virtuosity.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 02/27/25 at 19:41:46
JB, sorry to hear of your accident, and glad Subaru did well by you. I Don't have a C-9, but I have not been able to hear sound as coming from my speakers for a really long time. This room is not perfect, but with progressive efforts over years, it is incredibly good in resolution, speed and complexity balances over the range, and soundstage.


RPS. exciting... you are finding bypassing! Your DAC being on an apparently good platform to hear it, and first in the chain, a great place to start, hearing it all from the DAC. I guess it is all relative and there are no real absolutes in how we get the deeper experiences of sonic and musical balances, but as the subtle stuff emerges, like you are hearing even in this green stage, I can't do without it. I always hear even the smallest bypasses clearly, always doing good things if the right cap and value for optimizing balances. Then with time it smooths and refines with enhanced complexity. Then, all settled in the gear and in my perception, I might hear something a little off, and perhaps try a different bypass here or there, knowing now at least close to what I can expect from different caps, values, and blends, taking the whole deeper. Each refinement for me, so far ends up showing more, which then allows me to learn more about what I have and how it might be improved. Same with tubes, cables and all else.

The way you describe those "Amperex" tubes, makes me think of 6N23Ps. And I suspect part of the power of their effect for you is like in my DAC.... the tubes revealing their inherent characters in unusually big ways. Having tuned everything here previously, with great connectors, really good wires, resistors, caps, bypasses...I really don't have many weak links anymore... all my components and cables tuned for optimal transparency, resolution and speed, and the parts choices making all that more revealing, but also more musical.. to me musical being more like musicians in a great room, very real and lucid but without hardness that has often been traditionally associated with clarity. So far, adding another pre stage that has compelling traits, and is highly optimized in the same vein as the rest, compliments and brings up the whole with complexity and adjustability, finally offering more benefits than impediments. I think the output stage of my DAC, and it sounds like yours too, could be in a sense considered like a pre-stage with one setting once tuned, tubes and cap choices resulting in gain-like adjustment qualities.

But where I was going... with my amps and pre-stages, these highly revealing and fast components all show the tubes used in really big ways. But my DAC, guessing a lot due to its simple output stage, shows tube changes notably more intensely... "intensely" indicating its sort of "hybrid horse" like character in showing all the inherent tube sound qualities, for better or worse, more intensely. In my case, doing loads of experiments with different tube types, and tubes within each type, and playing with lots of output caps and combinations from the start, it has been a bit of a wild ride.

Interestingly, it also showed what was to me lacking in the base design for the complexity and speed I need in sort of big ways. I have been gradually "finding" that, also with power and clarity, the process more particular and less flexible ultimately due to this power of expression. So the caps and tubes are amped up in revelation comparatively to previous gear, as is all that they "say" or don't "say," with so many choices, making finding ultimate balances a little tricky, but also rewarding once I settled into the tubes I liked best and refining the rest for that range.

From your descriptions, it appears that your DAC design is similar in the powerful revelation of parts adjustments.


Tubes and caps are so interesting, when we find ones "right" for improving the component, better than past ones, another level of more compelling revelation and musicality is revealed. And as you have found, just the effects from good bypassing with decent caps is amazing in and of itself. Then we find more...like your nice idea to try bypassing the 0.22 Wimas with the PIO 0.033s you had on hand and see what it does. In my experience, it is possible that you made the Wima as good or better with the bypasses, than having replaced with Wima with a pretty high quality cap. The warming vibe of the PIOs, and probably the small value increase, I suspect contributed to more body and smooth warmth... a new basis for refinement of speed, and resolution of fine detail in space also from the bypasses... the combination showing some ways of exploring the potential of bypassing.

But then, what would it is sound like replacing the Wimas with a really nice, well balanced and fast cap, and bypassing it with a cap that compliments and improves the better cap.....and then, and then, and then.


I bet you find similar with all your explorations, but I am always surprised how much better things can still get after the last moves settled in and felt like they made things "about as good as it gets."

As a point of reference, my Torii IV I started bypassing and exploring parts and wire modifications I think the last of 2016. The most recent modifications were maybe a year and a half ago when I got caught up by my 845 amp. The Torii and CSP3 together were long and deep progressive learning grounds for modifications. With a fairly strict criteria that each modification needed to settle, and then proved as an improvement before moving on to the next, and not a compensation that could throw things off, it went on for years.

I was as diligent as I could be in holding relative balances, using the same tube sets over the period, keeping the same basic spectral balances, etc... so that I could read the changes as clearly and consistently as possible. Mostly one-by-one part position experiments with pre-burned in parts, it was fun and informative, learning a lot about the sounds of different parts and wire, and exploring various ways and levels of bypassing.

An example, finding the resistor I liked most on the cathodes of the input tubes, at first I might have tried 3 or 4 or 5 nice resistors before "finding" the one that made the most notable refinement to most aspects of the whole sonic experience.... Or progressively making bypasses where the bypass caps complimented each other, and the whole system/room, based on how they improved each pair of the power supply caps. Each pair associated with different power paths, I found I liked them best bypassed with different overall values and cap combinations. And finally the electrolytic caps in the MKIV replaced with film, that changed the bypass needs.

Anyway, the only parts that stayed were ones that improved all the many balances of the basics associated with speed and resolution brought out with musicality and minimal coloration.

For me, as it turned out, all these qualities fit together... needing the correct spectral balances to avoid veils and slowness, or tending lean or sharp... and refining speeds, fine detail and space with good sounding parts and wires resolving hardness into musical complexity that is more textural and harmonically complex everywhere, top to bottom, including decays that are balanced evenly across the spectrum... also improved speed complexity resulting in better leading edges and a complex range of dynamics across the spectrum.

Still, after finding these things again and again, as the system reveals more, I hear and learn more, revealing more areas for refinements. In the case of the Torii IV, amazingly, most parts and wires ended up being replaced, sometimes several times over the years, and each change had to be a real improvement to the whole. This to me was a really interesting and compelling exploration into sonic refinement, and that starting with an already really nice pre-25th mod design!


EDIT: I guess you may be moving to the output's power supply cap bypassing now??? With good bypassing there, it will most likely enhance all you did so far on the output board! Not sure what you have to work with, or what the Wimas were doing...were they acting as bypasses or not???.... but if the electrolytic caps are not bypassed, might want to start with 0.1s them... On my Torii's 47uF, and later 40 radials, a 0.1 on each cap as a base bypass or a little bigger woke things up. And on my DAC, the same on a smaller sized 6.8 uF film cap was a decent base bypass start. Actual size of the PS caps seems to matter and presumably output needs. In some of my pre stage boxes, the electrolytic caps are small and higher uF, and overall 0.1 is for me, usually enough, or too much of a bypass base cap on a pair of physically small, but higher uF caps. But this is me and with a lot of refinement work for fast and easy flow having been done everywhere, so worth some experiments.

I find on the power supply that after a certain value point, density and punch get over-done, sounding overstated... then if more overdone, density starts to dynamically consolidate what is there, making it a little artificial sounding and potentially too hard... and beyond that, the density can show as overweighting bass in the balances with hyped mids and highs that can be too dense and hard. Something like that... So if your sound seems about right, and you just want to bring up speed, dynamics, fine information and lucidity without changing the spectral balance much, a first try with 0.1 base bypass, with a very low value bypass on it will at least will tell you a lot, perhaps "right" or pointing to going higher or lower. My take anyway, espeically not knowing what you have to work with!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 02/27/25 at 21:05:21
JB,

Glad you came out of the deer incident unscathed. Sounds like the car, not so much.

RPS,
I am not going to return to the solid state output stage after hearing the magic which this tube stage provides.  So much closer to the audio truth. Analog reference being that truth.

'Truth' ...  very interesting choice of words. That's exactly what Dan Wright at ModWright Instruments calls his mods for this type of change:



Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/01/25 at 17:28:13

Believe it or not, I am actually going to make this post short!


;D



JB, sorry to hear about your accident. I think about this risk every time I drive, especially at night. The evidence is all over the country highways and main interstates.

That was a nice Subaru. The best part of it saved your life.  When you get your new Subaru, do like the fighter pilots did in WWII. Every time they had a kill, they would place an enemy marker on the side of the aircraft as a tally of victories for that aircraft.  I can just see that deer head symbol on your fender now.

Anyway, stay safe and I hope all is well after that accident.



CAJames, glad to know that you are reading and enjoying my little experiment.  We are in full agreement concerning that piano performance. It would be nice if you could compare the LPCD audiophile version against the standard redbook version. I wonder what your perception would be of the two different formats. I never heard the standard CD, but it sounds like it was already a great recording. That is most likely why it was chosen to make this audiophile master recording. I have yet to hear anything top this!

Stay tuned, there will be much more to follow.


Will, I have much to respond from what you are saying here. I just don't have time right now as the day is getting away from me.

I am preparing for bypass surgery on my DAC this afternoon.  I have to place the young DAC in intensive care tonight and see if she pulls through.

I shall give the details of the results tomorrow perhaps.  Monday and Tuesday have more parts expected to arrive. The adventure never ends. I shall keep you updated with each change.

Chipster, the "truth" analogy holds great merit!



[smiley=icqlite20.png]


Be back soon. I have work to do.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/02/25 at 21:47:15


Will, in reply to your observations:


The way you describe those "Amperex" tubes, makes me think of 6N23Ps. And I suspect part of the power of their effect for you is like in my DAC.... the tubes revealing their inherent characters in unusually big ways.


Yes, perhaps. I wish I had a good 6N23P tube to compare it with and see just how close they relate.

I examined a few images of the 6N23P tube, and I do not see this as a match.

The mystery remains, however, there is some data about these "funny" labeled tubes that were manufactured extensively back in the 70's and 80's. (my set is dated for 1980) The best we can go on is to check the manufacturers mark on the bottom of the tube between the pins. There should be a code molded in the glass.

I thought perhaps mine were made in EAST Germany by RFT, possibly?

RFT manufactured many European brand tubes, including Mullard, Siemens, and Philips, from the 1970s until the fall of the Berlin Wall.

This is what the response was from AI:

" The Russian manufacturer that created tubes marked "made in Germany" with the Amperex label in the 1980s was most likely Svetlana.

Explanation: During this period, it was common for Soviet-era manufacturers like Svetlana to produce tubes under different brand names, including Amperex, and sometimes even label them as being made in a Western country like Germany to enhance their perceived quality.

Key points about this situation:

   Philips and Amperex connection:
   Amperex was originally an American company later acquired by Philips, a Dutch electronics giant.

Soviet production:

Soviet manufacturers like Svetlana would often produce tubes for export markets, sometimes using established Western brand names.

"Made in Germany" labeling:

This practice of labeling Soviet-made tubes as "made in Germany" was done to appeal to consumers who associated German manufacturing with high quality"

Apparently from what I have read, there was a time when there was a huge demand for tubes, so much that many tube brands had to outsource other major tube producers to make tubes for them labeled under their brand name, but not in the same way it would be if actually made from let's say Amperex, but still stamped with that name. The code will identify this.

Alot of this was going on to keep tube supply up and people simply did not question it. From what I read, these old tubes produced by RFT are low cost, but said to be of very high quality standards and very well favored in their performance.  

As for the mysterious "Amperex" tubes that I have marked (W Germany), it sounds as though mine may have been part of that production trickery back in 1980. Regardless, these are very good tubes with superb sonics and clarity. They are like a really good 6922.

I found a couple of forum posts where users of this very same tube that I have, said the same thing that I did about this 6dj8 "Amperex W Germany" labeled tube. They used them in guitar amps stating, they immediately were surprised by the dynamics, clarity, and "magical" tonal character that these mystery tubes provide. The one guy said that these are the best he has ever used compared to some well known premium brands that are old stock.

I have them now and have to agree based upon what I have compared them to in my own experience. I just know that these are a very good secret that simply remains a mystery. The best $40.00 I ever spent on a set of matched signal tubes!


Here are some detailed views of the tubes I have. These are exactly like the ones the other's praised.














I guess that I got a bonus buy with perks. How often does that happen? Very interesting what exists out there that most people have no clue about. Much of this info is unknown due to cross manufacturing between tube brands. The code on the bottom of the tube is the best that we have to go by.


So, moving on:


From your descriptions, it appears that your DAC design is similar in the powerful revelation of parts adjustments.


From my own experimentation with the Musical Fidelity X-10D tube buffer, I absolutely agree with that statement in the way that every small change produces a very noticeable change in musical character. And this is with a tube stage that is not even burned in properly as of yet.

This mod experimentation has proven to be very tricky to put it mildly by way of centering in on a precise degree of component values. I get close with the first mod, then the result for another mod alters that outcome perhaps more in favor of the top end, but creates a degradation of sorts to the mid-range for example. It is like chasing the problem around, moving it from one part of the music to another. The tough part seems to be in finding that balance where everything is agreeable.

This tube stage is ultra revealing, and extremely powerful for something with a rated output voltage of 2.0v.

I could get by with a small amplifier using moderately efficient speakers using the output signals from this DAC. I really can't go beyond roughly 10 percent of the ToriiMK3's power range. It is simply too powerful and loud. My speakers have a very high sensitivity rating, so it doesn't take much. I have to make use of the tone dials on the rear of the amp to get things within tolerable range. I use those settings on the lower end of the range to keep things in proper perspective.

Switching from 8 ohms to 4 ohms on the amp really makes a profound difference with my speakers. Much more depth, and increased dynamics between the two settings.  These settings are far more critical using this DAC tube stage as to what I used before. The DAC signals go straight into the amplifier, and out to full range drivers without any crossover components in the way.








From the Decware Owner's Manual:

"The treble and bass controls for each channel are less than conventional. The treble
control is a simple shunt to ground meaning it's not in the signal path. It was designed to roll off the top end frequencies should they become too loud.

There is no “flat” position of this control because it changes from one loudspeaker to another. It has to be
set by ear. One way to do this is to simply turn it all the way down (counter clockwise)
and then slowly raise it until you're satisfied with the amount of treble.

The Bass Control is not a frequency adjustment as the name would suggest. Instead
what this control does is allow you to adjust how much interaction your loudspeaker has
with the amplifier.

This works by placing the voice coil of your loudspeaker in parallel
with the cathode resistor of the input stage in this amplifier. As the impedance rises the
gain of the amplifier is reduced in real time as the music plays.

The control simply lets you vary how much this happens. The result varies widely from one speaker to another
so again there is no such thing as a “flat” position on the control.

In fact it can even work backwards with some speakers, so you simply have to listen and adjust. I usually
start with the Bass Control fully counter clockwise and experiment from there."


The use of these controls have made all the difference in the world for tuning the sound. Without these flexible controls built into the amp, this would be much more difficult to achieve the same sound quality.

This reveals everything with full on naked exposure. You hear in-depth as to what is going on inside this DAC circuit without external alteration. We know that the amp is quite transparent in it's delivery, so this is about as accurate as I can get for testing the real sound quality of this DAC as I make these changes.

I can tell you this, these full range drivers don't let anything go by without notice. These are extremely transparent and revealing. They sound exactly as good or bad as the source feeding them.

When things are good, it is clearly revealed. When things are questionable, that too is revealed with the same degree of exposure. Getting this to lean well within the "good" side of results presents the real challenge here. It will happen, but it won't come easy. I will have gained a great deal of knowledge about DAC tuning by the time I finish this mod.


EDIT: I guess you may be moving to the output's power supply cap bypassing now??? With good bypassing there, it will most likely enhance all you did so far on the output board! Not sure what you have to work with, or what the Wimas were doing...were they acting as bypasses or not???.... but if the electrolytic caps are not bypassed, might want to start with 0.1s them...


Funny you should mention that. I was already thinking about upgrading the power supply. It already has premium audio quality electrolytics installed, so they provide a good starting point.

What I am considering is adding an additional DC filter by way of a huge capacitor into this circuit. I will have to study how to create the appropriate design for this DAC power supply. However, the ripple will be greatly reduced with much cleaner, far more stable power reserve. I guess a inductor/capacitor(10,000uf) scheme here would be best? Not sure about that, but is a thought.

But in the meantime, I am starting with simple additions of 0.10uf bypass capacitors. Sprauge Vitamin Q PIO types.  I installed these on Saturday. I listened for about three hours last night. See the following images which also show the addition of 0.082uf PIO caps for the four WIMA caps.












































Now, for the next mod, I have (5 Cornell Dubilier 0.22uf@200VDC Hermetically Sealed Milspec designation: P009A1KC224K-CD Vitamin Q type PIO capacitors coming which should be here on Tuesday.

I will be replacing all four WIMA caps with the Cornell Dubilier 0.22uf PIO caps. I hope to be hearing the result of this mod by Wednesday.


So, yes, I am very much so doing what you are suggesting. These are merely building blocks in temporary fashion. The final revision will of course be much cleaner and compact within a proper metal chassis.

For now, it will be some time before I get to that final stage getting this design to sound exactly the way I expect it to sound when finished. I am making progress, but it seems to be very complex to say the least. I am learning what each change does, and how these changes reflect upon the sound signature as a whole. This is a fun experiment. In the end, I will have gained a much better DAC tube output stage.  At least that is the goal.


As for the sound signature which I have now from the current configuration as shown, this is what I perceived last night.

Previously, I talked about the high intensity frequencies arising from the second Boston album which were way too intense and "peaked" for me, making this too intolerable for listening. This could make your ears bleed.

Okay, bearing that in mind.  The presentation was much better now. The higher frequencies are tamed now, yet they still are extreme, but much more acceptable for listening.  What really stands out is the almost endless degree of information being clearly conveyed in those higher registers. Between the intensity of the pipe organ, and that of Tom Shultz's guitar playing with his custom designed "Rockman" device which makes the Boston sound unique, there is a great deal of musical complexity going on in the upper range. Tom was an electrical engineer who studied at MIT. He designed the Rockman, which is still a highly sought after device today by musicians. No other guitar sound in the world even came close to what this device did for the Boston sound.

On a lighter note, now I am thinking, if I made an improvement to that situation, then most everything else should sound very good.  Well, sort of.  For the most part, yes, that is true.


But, things tended to shift directions a bit which now have made other great sounding recordings seem a bit peaked in the upper midrange. Not all, but in a few sections of some songs where the intensity peaks with instruments climbing the scale with a female voice. I am referring to the live NYC recording of Natalie Merchant back in 1999. This is a very well recorded with a seductive sounding atmosphere and a very realistic presence. I must note that this is a HDCD format in 24 bit 96 kHz. My DAC does decode that format.

Until this recent mod, this recording has always been extremely pleasant to listen to in it's entirety. Now I might be making more out of this observance than I should be, but I am being critical as to this evaluation.

Now when I say that there were a few issues which seem degraded from before, I am talking about very few areas within the music, for which most of the recording still sounded as good as before. There was one part where the intensity builds with a complex arrangement of guitar, piano, bass, and her voice climbing to peak levels before dropping off to subtle passages again. It seemed to me that as a result of this peak sound culmination, there was some brief sibilance.



To be continued.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by will on 03/03/25 at 20:38:00
Sounds like a big learning exploration is on!

At this point it sounds to me like you are hearing the effects of too much, or a little off-balanced bypassing. But also it is good to know that, depending on the caps used, what is not too intense in bypassing with one cap, can sound too intense (or not) depending on the characters of the caps used.

Where we start is clearly bigtime, whatever tendencies the DAC has designed into it in the power supply and all else, and that being amplified by the power of the output being so revealing. Wasn’t your DAC on the ‘hottish” side in your setting before modifications, improving notably with the Russian tube. A good pointer to how much the DAC shows changes…but also, it may be that the DAC is tuned from the maker to be a little hot, and perhaps needs subtler tubes and/or bypassing to get the sound you need??? Regardless, I suspect that with more tube experiments you would find most all would notably change the sound of your DAC for better or worse, indicating how much the tube foundation effects the whole.

Caps in my experience are the same, especially with these highly revealing outputs. But across the board, some might help a certain piece of gear and others might hurt it, just like the 6N11 were not to your taste and system/room, and the Russian tubes very much to your taste there. Also your cap choices are so far pretty limited, as are the values, and the cap sonic characters affecting the qualities of the different bypass value sound, it is hard to know without more comparison if the caps are optimal helpers for your DAC signature. But I suspect the bigger imbalances are based on the values and/or numbers of bypasses being too much or not necessarily right for all the places you have them... tipping up “breathing,” pressuring the top too much on harder notes especially, and causing some sibilance. Or perhaps your small bypasses are too strong in self-sound for what is ideal, why I like Mallorys over Duelunds in many cases (and most others I have tried), because, here anyway, the Mallorys do nice things to bring out the very high and fast stuff subtly and musically, not in your face. I will be better able to guess on these things sometime soon, having some Spragues coming, but some thoughts.

Also, as you are finding, tubes, caps, and bypasses all strongly affect each other… and without burnin and settling, it is hard to know the full effect of one change, and how the next affects it. Related, with your tubes, your output caps sets, your wima bypasses, your power bypasses, and all the bypasses of bypasses… to me that is a lot of stuff fast! I always start bypassing based on the particular component balances. And having played with this a fair bit over time, I have found basic things that help me get balanced sound, like roughly adhering to the 1/10 guidance in bypassing, as well as having learned the sound of many caps, and narrowing down to the ones I find help me get my sound easiest. But as much or more, I never bypass by rote, always by sound, be it the cap choice, or the value, needing to be relatively clear what I am working with in order to make better choices for the next experiment.

Even now, after years of steady play with this, I try to wait for one move that appears on first impressions to be heading in the right direction to settle in before moving on. Especially with new stuff, this also helps me learn the subtleties of the component and give it more time for burnin before doing too much. Otherwise I don't know if it was the right choice, or what I am building on... things I need to make the next choice with more confidence that what I hear is the change and not the previous move still settling as well. And finally, as I have mentioned, if each choice helps the whole in most all ways, while better assuring that each part is in balance with the whole and improving it holistically, this reduces the need and desire for compensation that might help now, but show up later as problematic. The upshot though, is that I can't know how to improve the sound with different sounding parts if I don't know what the sound is.

Leading to burnin effects, and in the case of these DACs, negative burnin issues being amplified by expressive output stages. In mine, the intensity of changes of tubes and caps is still there after burnin, but they show notably smoother, more complex, and with more musical tolerance after more complete burnin. From how I hear it here, I attribute this to smoothing with more complexity resolving strongly stated rigid per-burnin sound. My DAC designer suggested it would get pretty steady after 100 hours, which may have been sort of true with ups and downs. But I am guessing more like 300-350 was when part of my earlier tuning troubles were revealed as notable contributions from pre-burnin rigidity. Now, still revealing more and more complexity, it is notably easier to make changes, and it is sounding really close to the big beauty.

Though not a total solution before the DAC is burned in, this is why I use a Frybaby and then let the parts settle in with music before doing the next modification. In my experience every cap matters to the whole, and not having used most of those caps you are so far trying, I can't say if I would use them or not….or if I did generally like them, whether I would like them in your particular DAC, especially on masse.

But I can say I tried lots of popular caps before arriving at the ones I use in modifications, also finding I prefer the sound when caps support complexity, whether a base cap or bypass. For me, ending up with caps that balance some musical warmth in a relatively neutral way, and with really good complexity, has been tricky… And to compliment caps with slight warmth, I often use caps with less warmth for pulling speeds and space with fine information. I always find that by using different but complimentary caps, both together, and spread around, the added complexity can help pull the natural beauty, without hardness or other anomalies based on the cap sound, or value choices and combinations being too much or too little. And if an addition doesn’t give me musical complexity without sacrifices elsewhere, I explore until I have choices that do.


It is cool that you are learning and having fun with bypassing, making a lot of changes in multiple areas, and quickly, good learning. But with the currently limited cap selection of types and values, and from looking at the pictures, it does not surprise me that some issues are showing up. Within the cap sound you have, I am guessing a good part of the issues are that some of the bypass cap sets and conglomerate values might be close to, or good for your balances, and others not...

I can’t read most of the values in the pics. But even if the Spragues and KY40s offer really good sound for your bypass needs, from your sound impressions, the DAC seems likely to be over-bypassed in general. If you have put a 0.082, and a 0.033, on the 0.22 Wimas… that is a lot conceptually for basic bypassing. But in the context of whatever the Wimas are already doing, these bypasses could be way too much. Not being able to read the traces, from their location, if not bypasses of sorts, I am guessing they may be refining the power to the tubes in similar ways as bypasses can, and being small, and right at the tubes, they are not power supply caps in the ways the electorlytics are. Also being film, and already more fast and revealing than electrolytic caps, by having added about 1/2 again to the value with bypasses, that is heavy bypassing in my experience. Don't know, but guess this could contribute to an issue with subtle “pumping” that goes too hot for some notes and recordings. My inclination as a first learning experiment toward finding the beauty, would be to use only the 0.033 or a smaller value bypass on the Wimas and see what it does.

Also, regardless of the power of self sound from different caps, very small values pull more from the top… my preference for these is almost always for milder caps with greater complexity, as opposed to strong sounding ones with more concentration of complexity. Depending on the cap used, the same values can vary widely within these parameters. This in mind, the next thing I might try, is to take off one of the three Erse bypasses. If after toning down the Wimas it sounds pretty right overall, but still a little intense up in the very top, maybe try pulling the smallest bypass first and listen. Or if it is still has a little too much surge and over-expressive feel, especially on strong notes, I would probably try keeping the smallest bypass and removing the middle value one…

Some thoughts anyway that I hope might help as you dig into the complexity and benefits of bypassing.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/04/25 at 22:03:01



At this point it sounds to me like you are hearing the effects of too much, or a little off-balanced bypassing. But also it is good to know that, depending on the caps used, what is not too intense in bypassing with one cap, can sound too intense (or not) depending on the characters of the caps used.


Yes, but that is somewhat intentional for a starting base.  It looks a bit extreme to start with, but with major advances, the direction of "change" reveals itself in a much more grand robust scale. After each major upgrade/mod made, it quickly reveals "overshoot" in balance. Then I simply go in reverse and start taking part of the components out of the equation, one by one.

As I do so, this should be quite transparent as to what direction this small change has just deviated from the mix. If better, then fine, we are going in the right direction. If not much of a change, or perhaps not with favorable results, then take out the next size bypass cap and repeat. It may be very well in the end result that the only thing needed is a good base cap and a quality bypass cap to make the final revision.

No harm done. This simply speeds up the process with subjective probability as the core factor. That is why this is called experimentation. The chase comes with setbacks and in some cases, disappointment. But all of that is reversible and easy to restructure. Eventually, with determination, trial and error, the end solution will come. When that confidence level is achieved, then we can focus upon the need for "better" components and their associated high costs without making a costly mistake. This does not imply that more expensive components are going to sound better. They will always sound better if one is convinced that they will.

I doubt that there is going to be that much of an improvement over the high quality Sprauge PIO designs. These have made a dramatic improvement over what I already had, and they are definitely audiophile grade. I can say the same about the Russian military surplus. Pennies on the dollar performance compared to ultra expensive designer caps. I will be putting these to the test with direct comparisons.

These high grade Sprauge Vitamin Q PIO capacitors are not just some type of moderate quality component by any degree. Once you get to this level of design and quality construction, the results of additional design factors play a much smaller role in gain when it comes to "magical influence".  These capacitors are still considered today as some of the best out there.

After hearing what these are capable of, I certainly don't expect some $300.00 capacitor to make enough difference to justify that insane price tag up against the high quality Vitamin Q PIO types which can be bought "old stock" at a bargain price. I would imagine the probability of different sound signatures could come into play, but then again, it is up to the individuals taste as to what is preferred. That does not mean one type is better than the other.

Once you have instilled the most critical factors which will make a high performance design, any difference after that remains purely subjective, based upon opinion the way I see it. But look, I will remain open minded to make this comparison. Perhaps I will discover something that makes it worth it. I have to replace the main caps for sure. These are the caps which will benefit from high grade audiophile types over the ERSE pulse caps installed now.

The ERSE caps are better than average, but nowhere near as good as say the V-caps. I have zero doubt that the V-caps will be a game changer in this DAC. When it comes to replacing the Vitamin Q PIO caps, that will be scrutinized with much more to doubt. I shall see.

Think about it. What really makes a high quality capacitor design? What factors are actually responsible for the sound signature which they influence upon the music? Much of this mystery remains just that, a mystery based upon speculation.  The only thing that matters is the perceived end result. Did you get what you expected?

When you examine the simplicity of how capacitors are constructed, it all comes down to a few major points as to how good they will sound.  And the one thing we must not overlook, are these accurate and neutral as to not color the signal passing through them?

The factors we consider are the actual plate area, which the larger the surface, the higher the capacitance. That factor does not necessarily affect the sound quality.  What does affect the sound quality is the type of dielectric material chosen which also affects capacitance.

A very critical aspect of the construction process will most definitely be revealed in the sound quality. The tighter the tolerance between the plates, along with  the purity of the dielectric, is a critical factor here. And of course, the conductive element is the main factor overall when it comes to tonal perspective.


I believe that these factors alone constitute the major portion of what one hears with the finished product.

In my logical perspective of how this can be derived, and still justified in a common sense approach, is to consider the properties of the dielectric, and what material the conductive plates are constructed from. I have to think that when a oil based capacitor is considered, it makes sense to me that the oil creates a damping effect through  the conductive process, much like a filter would remove harsh particles passing through. The end result being a smoother more refined signal form.

So, we know that paper in oil capacitors are known for great sound in old tube based equipment. Why would that not be true today? The paper might make a difference, also the type of oil can make the difference. But when we use things such as wax, just how much of a difference can that possibly make?  There are differences within these variations. But when we start out with a premium capacitor design using materials already specified for quality audio, then just how much improvement are we really expecting by upgrade versions?

Yes, I speculate that a copper foil in oil is going to make a dramatic difference over a polypropylene version, but compared to a PIO type, we are getting much closer to the premium level sound quality based on that alone. This is when metallurgy becomes the prime factor for gaining advanced improvement. Copper leans to being dark, silver leans to being bright. A combination of the two can create a nice blend between them.

It only makes sense that the right metal along with the right oil, is going to provide the nicest sounding offerings, at least as I see it. Beyond that, this situation begins to wander off into "hocus-pocus" territory for which I need to hear it to believe it. When I can choose the favored capacitor 8 out of 10 times in a blind A/B test, then I become a firm believer. I will reserve confirmation until after the smoke clears.

I do not believe that an expensive capacitor is necessarily the "best" capacitor. This has many variables, all which are subjective.

The tolerance levels in uniformity along with the purity of the materials wrapped in very precise degrees of encasement are in the end what matters the most.

We know that mass produced items do not have the same level of quality that premium attention to quality components have. That leaves plenty of room for error within the construction and materials used in the cheap offerings.


After all, what are we really hearing here? This is not a controlled laboratory where we all get the same results with the same conclusion. Ask yourself, how much of this "change" is actually a result of influence from the room acoustical factor? How much of this change is due to other components within the signal chain?  Most certainly, the amplifier design and the speakers are going to play a huge role in this outcome.  That is why these factors have to be limited as much as possible in order to really understand the actual worth of a component, especially when we are talking about minute details.

If an audio room has poor acoustics, I certainly would not by any degree base what I hear in that room as the "best" results in favor of the component being evaluated. We can only base our perception upon what our own audio factors as a whole actually represent to the changes we make in our own unique environment. I hear these changes very easily, and with very sharp contrast due to my acoustics being as good as they can be in this room.

If I tried to do this with the untreated version of this room, this would be like talking to the dead. You won't get anything out of it except for what lies deep within the imagination. That borders on being delusional.

I will be utilizing premium (modern) esoteric capacitors, resistors, and tubes once the final audio signature is identified. Only then will I throw my hat into the ring by concluding that these overpriced audio jewels are actually worth it in my opinion. That "opinion" will be formed from a controlled test environment for which I base my knowledge on actual comparison trials.

This is part of why I am doing all of this. I want to hear for myself what these high end aftermarket caps are actually worth when put to the test. I want to see just how much "better" a $300.00 cap will sound compared to a highly respected Sprauge paper in oil cap produced back in the tube electronics age before transistors came about.  For me, the hype stops here. I will be my own judge.

You are going to find out just how special these Vitamin Q PIO caps really are once you begin testing them. They become ultra revealing in the way they influence the sound of music. Whether one likes the sound these produce or not, they are indeed powerful tools which will shape the sound signature in a very positive way. It becomes a dance around the output tube which will be the final resolution to this battle. The circuit sets the stage, the tube is the player on that stage.

Immediately you will notice deep levels of transparency, far better dynamic range, greater space around instruments, better dimensional projection of the sound-stage, etc. For something "old stock" that is older than most of us, these capacitors are a well kept secret which audiophiles should be considering first when you consider the huge benefits at such a low price. I doubt that one could find a better "bang-for-the-buck" when it comes to audio.

Due to the unreasonable burn in time that it takes between each mod, I find it logical to get these components into the system upfront and start getting them burned in. I am not going to wait 30 days apart playing this DAC for 50 hours a week just to see what each mod sounds like after extensive burn in. The general change in sound signature will be apparent immediately after the mod takes place.

However, we know that this only brings the "settled" signature within a range difference of maybe twenty percent as opposed to being fully burned in, and well seasoned. This is what I must go on to get a good enough basis to project the end result down the road. I don't have a high speed cooker to break-in the components with, and that is something that I will most likely construct from the schematics.

In essence, knowing all of the related factors involved, I need to take a speedy approach to this testing phase due to time restrictions. Once I find a likable platform to settle with, then I will sit back and let the DAC get some serious playing time before I make the final judgement. after 300 to 500 hours, if I don't feel it is quite there yet, then minor changes will be performed to final tweak the DAC circuit. Wash, rinse, and repeat. On average, I can maintain a consistent 200 hours+ per month on actual component burn-in.

Once this new DAC is where I want it to be, my next phase is to build the holography circuit which will be an integral part of this DAC build. This circuit will be integrated within the same chassis with direct switchable engagement, or bypassing as desired. There is a great deal to do with what I have planned in the grand scheme of things concerning my audio system.

Once all of this is done, then comes the time for amplifier upgrades. I have a new speaker design in the planning stage which will be specific to my exact acoustic environment, and a perfect match for my amplifier. The drivers being used now will be installed in the new designs. My intent is for premium imaging which complements the C9 holography circuit to the fullest extent.

Everything is focused upon producing the best possible "holographic" imaging as possible. The only way that is going to happen is by my own design, built upon vast testing and experimentation.

I built this audio room to be the best it can be. My focus now is to reshape the audio components to be the best they can be in order to extract as much as possible within the music. That is what all of this is about. Hearing music in the purest form, with as much realism possible within constricted surroundings.

I am not running off the audio trail concerning room acoustics on this thread by discussing DAC mods, or any other components, but merely including their vital importance as to the final step in finding the ultimate sound quality for which I can be completely satisfied. I don't want the limitations of anything which I can control to get in the way if I can improve upon that factor. All of these factors work together in which to form the big picture. I am at a point now where small changes make a huge difference in the music representation.


Wasn’t your DAC on the ‘hottish” side in your setting before modifications, improving notably with the Russian tube.

Yes, and mostly due to the poor quality tubes that were installed. I do not like the sound of Chinese tubes. The 6n11's were a very bad choice for this Musical Fidelity X-10D tube stage. The tubes and the Solen Caps are the first areas which must be upgraded before this DAC can even begin to sound high-end.

I agree that it will take some tube rolling to find out what is ideal overall in this circuit. I see enough change in the capacitor experimentation to know that most of this will be resolved with the appropriate blend of capacitors.

The "hot" factor simply suggests what is being revealed in the upper frequencies due to much higher range with this 24 bit 96 kHz DAC. The efficiency of my speakers with the transparency they convey are making it very easy for the DAC to reveal everything that is recorded in the higher registers. The accuracy and power of the ToriiMK3 amp make it easy for SPL to get out of control very quickly. A little bit of power goes a long ways in my situation.


This will be under control once the cap configuration is derived. Custom tuning can be refined by another tube perhaps.


If a 6n1p was compatible for sure, that could be an ideal choice in my situation.


Continued in next post.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/05/25 at 07:39:25

Sometimes, the shotgun approach can hit the intended target and get you where you want to go. This drastic measure actually worked in my favor.


In my last upgrade modification trying to pinpoint where my high frequency problem was coming from, I had targeted the right area, I just didn't go far enough to remove the actual problem of which I had suspected was the core problem all along. This problem just worsened as I upgraded the path down line from this point.  As I increased the definition of the tube output, I was also increasing the high pitched glare that was amplified throughout the signal path.

This was like high frequency distortion, a overpowering synthetic presence which completely destroyed the music in the upper range. This was notably masking the details within the music which actually sounded stressed during various passages.

I suspected that since there were four WIMA caps along the critical input stage where the signals were fed from the DAC, these had to be the culprit causing the sound degradation. When I soldered the bypass caps on the bottom of the board for each WIMA cap, the sound quality itself improved, but the high frequency distortion became worse, as if being amplified.

I had already planned to remove and replace these with high quality oil based capacitors of the same value, then adding a 0.10uf bypass cap to each new 0.22uf cap to start with and see where it goes. I knew it had to make an improvement. Not sure if it would completely solve the problem and put the music back into proper perspective, but it would certainly be the proper path to getting there.



I ordered some Cornell Dubilier 0.22uf@200VDC  Milspec designation: P009A1KC224K-CD Vitamin Q type capacitors to replace the WIMA caps with. This should completely turn things around.


I received these caps on Monday and performed major surgery to the board that afternoon. The WIMA caps are gone now, with the new Vitamin Q Paper In Oil caps in their place. I have high hopes for positive change once this mod is completed.


These are the crappy WIMA caps that were at the core of the high frequency problem. These do not belong in a high-end DAC.






Here is the upgraded view after my tube stage came out of surgery and rolled into intensive care for some audio recovery.





This modification was a royal PITA which took a significant amount of time to complete, but it was worth it. Just had to clean up all of the Flux residue and check the circuit path for possible shorts, and proper integrity before powering it up.

Then it's off to the audio room to see how this modification sounds.




















Starting to look like a deformed science project gone wrong, but it sure makes up for it with absolutely devine musical quality. This tube stage is rapidly approaching high end territory with a refined sound signature which is almost at it's optimal goal. Once the main caps are replaced with the combination V-cap ODAM's and the copper foil in oil types, this DAC will be ready to play in the major leagues as a very strong competitor.

It already sounds as good or better than any DAC that I have heard before this, and it is not done yet. Little "Goddess-Zilla" is coming into her place of being. She awakened after her recent surgery with a new perspective  to be better than ever, developing her wings like Icarus, ready to fly high, soaring into audio perfection. Except that I will guide her away from the sun. I don't want her wings to melt getting too close to the heat source.

This current configuration is very close to the ideal mark. This is far from what I heard in stock form before any mods were done. This is not even the same tube stage, not even close.


So immediately after I fired the DAC up after the WIMA cap change, I could already notice the difference. With a cold system and green parts inside the DAC, it was obvious that the work has paid off. Knowing that things are going to sound much better once the system warms up and some time goes by, I am just satisfied that it does sound so much better than before.

So that solved the high frequency situation. I listened for about two hours last night. It did sound even more refined once the operating temperature settled in to normal range. The music I played sounded so much better. I am thinking that now I have a platform to work with. This is going to improve even more as time goes on.

I let the system play all day while I was doing other things. After dinner, I went up this evening to evaluate the current state that it is in after running all day and having some time to settle in.

I played the two discs that I played before as a reference. First, the familiar Tull symphony live recording, followed by the live Natalie Merchant recording in the HDCD format.

The Tull recording was even better now than past listening sessions, even with my other DAC. The sound quality is almost perfect in current form. I can only imagine what is possible with superior main capacitors in place such as the V-cap ODAMS. There is no doubt in my mind that it is going to be great to say the least. I am satisfied with the sound signature now, but I know it gets even better with the right upgrade.

I stated that previously, the Natalie Merchant recording had a couple of issues that "peaked" with some noted sibilance during high notes with her voice.  Glad to report that not only has that problem been resolved, but now, these same passages are well controlled and sound absolutely fantastic. This recording is not only back to being very pleasant in form, but actually, the overall sound quality is even better than anytime that I ever listened to it.

I no longer have that irritating glare anymore. I am very pleased at this point where I am currently at. So I know that I am set going in the right direction. I may subtract a couple of the bypass caps later, but  I might wait awhile and leave things as they are to let it break-in and get some adjustment time first. It is at the point now where I feel good about it and like the way it sounds. So this provides a good starting point for future upgrades.

So it is confirmed. Changing the WIMA caps for the PIO caps made all the difference and solved the problem.

I could go on about how rich and dynamic, yet controlled and balanced the sound quality is now from what I have heard so far, but I will save that for later.


Things are heading in the right direction.

It is time to listen again and check out some other soundtracks.

I shall return later after some time with the new DAC.


[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/07/25 at 23:54:20

Finally, I received the larger capacitor needed to upgrade the Toslink input. The stock little 10uf cap is way too small and insufficient to create the shape and integrity of the incoming digital signal in the way it should be.

2200uf is what it takes to provide the best signal possible feeding the DAC. The new cap is much larger, most likely why they never used it when the DAC board was created in order to keep things tidy and small.

This was a mod that Lukasz Fikus (designer of Lampizator DACS) pointed out early on to extract the full potential from this DAC. He was the one who designed the final layout upgrades for this DAC. The manufacturer in China decided not to include this mod for obvious reasons. You have to do this on your own.

He suggests using as high as 2200uf, but you can use a smaller value if you like. The cap only needs to be rated at 6.3V, but mine is rated for 50v.  As you can see, space is very limited, the long legs provide the extension necessary to clear the top of the Toslink/coax ports. This was a bit tedious to accomplish, especially extracting the original tiny capacitor sitting low in that tight space. With patience and attention to detail, I managed this surgery just fine without a problem.

Should look something like this once the mod is finished.

Just pay attention to polarity as the cap must be installed stripe side to negative.




















That mod was more difficult to perform than it looks. Most importantly, it works well. You immediately notice a richer, fuller sound than before. The stronger signal makes quite a notable difference.


I listened to this mod last night for several hours. I really am enjoying the way this DAC is turning out. There is some serious high fidelity within the potential of this DAC design. Once I have the V-caps and copper /oil caps installed, there won't be much left to do except upgrade the resistors, and the diodes to high speed types.

After that, it is time to install all of this into my custom built metal chassis which will be two tier with metal isolation to shield against interference. The power supplies/transformers will be isolated on the bottom, with sensitive components placed on top of the center metal shelf. I will be building custom hook-up wires made of heavy gauge copper/silver design, along with pure copper RCA jacks on the rear panel. There will be enough room to install the C9 clone holography circuit once that is complete and ready to install.


I am in the process now of reducing the bypass cap configuration to the base form with one bypass cap for each PIO capacitor that replaced the WIMA caps, and the main caps. I will be listening to this later this evening and a few hours tomorrow to get an idea of where this sound is best balanced. When I replaced the WIMA caps with high grade Vitamin Q PIO caps, that alone made the difference necessary. So I am going to limit those four caps to solely the 0.22uf rating for now, plus one tiny bypass cap around 0.0022uf.

I feel that the high frequencies could use a bit more taming. Even though it sounds fantastic, I like the sound a bit more laid back with somewhat of a darker tone. I think that this change should get me closer to that goal. I am reducing the main caps for now to just the 3.0uf ERSE caps, bypassed with a single Sprague Vitamin Q PIO cap rated at 0.10uf.

I will leave it this way until I get the new V-caps, plus the copper foil/oil caps to form the main capacitors.

If all goes well after a few weeks of burn-in, then I should be satisfied with this final capacitor upgrade. That remains to be confirmed in the near future. I should be able to order the high grade capacitors for the tube stage in about a week or so.  Then more fun to follow. I just hope this project meets my expectations. So far, all indications are leaning favorably in that direction.


Alright, got to return to my soldering station.


Wile E Coyote has some more things to build.


[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/08/25 at 16:43:17

This is the latest modification configuration which I finished last night. I spent a couple hours listening to the results.

From what I heard as a result of this latest refinement, those extra bypass capacitors were simply unnecessary in the circuit. (I am not surprised by that, but had to confirm it.)

The high frequencies were previously enhanced way too much. That bright top end is under far better control now.

The top end has leveled out proportionally with the mid-range, and bottom end of the frequency response. Seems like an ideal balance across the entire frequency spectrum now. I still have much more evaluation time before I can confirm this completely. So far, I really am pleased with the current performance.





















The list of upgrade modifications which are in place currently are as follows. So far, this arrangement is the most favored by my listening evaluations. I still have to upgrade the main caps with 2.2uf V-caps+ 1.0uf copper/oil types for the next improvement coming soon in the near future.



*HEAVY DUTY TOROIDAL TRANSFORMER

*UPGRADE TO HIGH QUALITY 6DJ8 VACUUM TUBES

*UPGRADE MAIN CAPS (2.2uf/3.3uf), *ERSE 3.0uf "PULSE" COUPLED WITH 0.10uf PIO BYPASS CAPACITORS

* THE FOUR 0.22uf WIMA CAPS REPLACED WITH VITAMIN Q PIO TYPES, ALONG WITH 0.0022uf PIO CAPACITORS

*REMOVAL & REPLACEMENT OF TOSLINK 10uf CAPACITOR UPGRADED TO 2200uf CAPACITOR

*ADDITION OF 0.10uf PIO BYPASS CAPACITORS ALONG POWER SUPPLY CAPS FOR TUBE STAGE



At this current level, the sound quality has improved tremendously to say the least. There is still advancement to be made from it with additional upgrades, mainly with the V-cap mod. This DAC/Musical Fidelity X-10D tube stage combination easily sits at the top with high end DAC's costing thousands of dollars retail.

This design is incredibly responsive to small mods, making it very easy to dial in the sound signature exactly the way you want it. Just takes time to master that goal. The influence of tube swapping, and capacitor types really have a direct impact upon it's overall sound. Definitely go with PIO caps as a minimum. I strongly recommend the old stock Sprauge Vitamin Q caps, and the old stock Cornell Dubilier PIO caps. They are very powerful tools for shaping the sound signature.

The PIO caps made a huge difference in this tube stage. I doubt that a better upgrade is possible for such a low investment, not even close in my opinion. I have to question the "real" difference between these, and super expensive esoteric caps, as to how much "better" these costly versions really may be? I will find out soon enough, but for now, I am extremely pleased with my current results.

Just letting it burn in for ten hours each day, every day, so that the burn-in gets accelerated. It will continue to improve in minute subtle ways as the circuit gets settled in, and seasoned.

Very impressive to say the least!

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/30/25 at 03:12:37



The copper foil in oil difference. The next phase.









Nearly a month later and I am approaching near perfection. The main culprit to what was keeping me from hearing my ideal presentation was due to the poor capacitors, transformers, and vacuum tubes which came originally with the Musical Fidelity X10D tube output stage preamplifier kit. This was true on all accounts. I fully anticipated upgrading all of these areas from the beginning.

*NOTE: The Lampucera DAC board (created by Lampizator designer Lukasz Fikus), comes fully modified with the best  match in audiophile grade components possible, chosen based upon extensive listening evaluations. The upgrade version is the result of trying every possible capacitor type among the best available for premium audio when considering electrolytic types in a digital circuit. The ultimate choice which easily stood out as superior to the other capacitor choices were that of Sanyo OSCON types.  These are the ultimate choice for a digital circuit such as a DAC.

The remaining caps that are not OSCON's, are premium Nichicon MUSE caps where it matters the most. This high grade capacitor set transforms this DAC into extreme audiophile territory which is second to none at any cost factor. This DAC board is perfect as it is when shipped. Simply run the direct output bypass jumper connection from the bottom port directly into the tube stage, then plug in the outboard power supply, and you are ready to go.

The stock opamp which comes installed in this DAC is also poor quality. It is mere mainstream quality at best. I have no use for it, as I am bypassing the opamp stage all together with a direct output cable to the tube buffer preamp board. I removed the opamp from the cradle, leaving it open and unused.

The EI transformers that come with this kit are inadequate and should be avoided. These do not belong in a high end audiophile grade device, and should be replaced with something much better like a R-Core, or a toroidal design transformer. The best choice by way of performance and cost is that of a R-core design. This will dramatically improve the power supply.

The outboard power supply that comes with this kit to power the DAC board is well made, built with premium high grade components as well. The capacitors are premium Nichicon types which are a good choice for this power supply. The power supply for the tube stage comes with premium Nippon KZH  super low impedance capacitors for clean stable power.

The budget components supplied with this kit are meant to only be a starting platform as "extras" included for the low cost of the kit. The only thing that matters is getting the X10D PCB tube stage board, plus the excellent Lukasz Fikus modified  Lampucera DAC board, based upon the Cirrus Logic CS8416, 192 kHz interface receiver, and the Cirrus Logic CS4398  24 bit/192 kHz DAC.  Everything else requires upgrades for the best performance possible.

The DAC board has a jumper for using either Tos-link input, or Coax input from the CD player. This has to be manually changed for the input desired.

This DAC supports a stand alone I2C/SPI configuration, along with DSD and SACD. This is a 24 bit 192 kHz Delta-Sigma architecture with extremely LOW jitter, through differential analog outputs. This DAC is rated at 120 dB  with volume control capability.


So, up to this point I have upgraded the transformer powering the tube output stage, along with the removal of the plastic sounding substandard WIMA capacitors from the input stage where the signals come in from the DAC. Those caps had a really bad influence upon the sound of this DAC. Between these and the really horrible Solen capacitors used for the mains, this combined to make a sonic disaster to put it mildly. These WIMA caps are all replaced with NOS Sprague Paper In Oil capacitors, bypassed with small value Sprague PIO capacitors to clean up, and drastically improve the incoming DAC signals.

The stock Solen 3.3uf capacitors simply sound bad, needing immediate replacement where only the best of premium audiophile grade capacitors will be good enough for this DAC to reach maximum potential. I highly recommend copper foil in oil types if you want the best possible sound signature.

If you go by the sound of the stock unit, you will get a false representation of how great this tube output stage really is compared to the potential flushed out once the right components are installed. On top of this, as if that wasn't bad enough, the supplied Chinese tubes just make things even worse. All of the substandard mediocre components have to go before you can even begin to consider this DAC/tube output stage combination worthy of being defined as professional grade, with a quality level second to none.

This was no surprise to me as I already anticipated this outcome.

So, in my thought process for selecting a great capacitor upgrade to replace the Solen caps, I considered many types and variations of capacitor implementation. What I always felt was best from the beginning was to go with the best possible grade of copper foil in oil types that I could afford, yet not undermine the quality of the impending sound from reaching it's fullest extent. There is a great deal of over emphasized acceptance regarding the esoteric Polish built Miflex brand. These along with Dueland, Jupitor, and Audio-Note, are among the most expensive exotic designs available for audio, all which come at a premium price which is way beyond the budget of most audio enthusiasts.

These run into exorbitant cost factors exceeding several hundred dollars for a single capacitor, once you get to the larger values. Even though these are premium grade extreme high end designs, they are hardly worth that much money as far as I am concerned. Consider this like buying the likes of Mercedes and Rolls Royce of audio capacitors.

Do not get me wrong, these capacitors are at the extreme level of sonic excellence which is as good as it gets. The thing that stands out between them is their individual sonic signature which some are preferred over the others by very marginal degrees. If you have a system capable of resolving the quality factor for which these capacitors reveal in the music, then they certainly will take you to the highest level of music excellence. It simply becomes a matter of taste which the listener finds most suitable in a particular system.

I can't stress enough about the importance of balanced room acoustics. This is the FIRST thing that one should be focused on before even thinking about the gain derived from esoteric equipment upgrades. You need to correct for room issues if you really want to hear what expensive components will sound like. You are just fooling yourself otherwise.

Again, what good is an expensive racing car if the road is full of ruts and potholes? Kind of hard focusing on the true potential of the racing machine if the road just gets in the way!

I could not see placing something this expensive into a mainstream $500.00 CD player or DAC. That would be a real waste of money with very little return on the investment when you consider the "weakest" link restriction in audio, and that these caps cost more than the CD player itself. If you have a high end unit worth thousands of dollars, then these caps would certainly make the perfect refinement which is fully justified. If you can afford a ten thousand dollar DAC, then the cost of upgrades really don't matter. If you are on a limited budget and want to get the most bang for the buck, then there are better alternatives to serve your needs which will create very satisfying results.

Is it possible to achieve the same level of performance as found in the uber expensive caps, with a much lower cost solution by way of an affordable alternative? That was the focus I set out to achieve, being the basis of my upgrade choice to replace the 3.3uf Solen caps. I want great sounding copper/oil caps, but it is almost impossible to find a reputable design without breaking the bank.

In my search for what I anticipate a very low chance of finding such a thing, I came across a product developed and manufactured in China which is created using the latest fabrication techniques and materials "almost" identical to those made by the esoteric brand names. After all, who do you suppose actually manufactures many of these high priced capacitors being sold to those with deep pockets? Don't be surprised if the same factory manufactures some, if not most of these high end capacitors, regardless of whose fancy marketing scheme is attached to the name.

Is it really hard to believe that the same Chinese manufacturing plant may possibly replicate the same capacitor design branded under it's own name, at a much lesser cost to the consumer? You are fooling yourself if you think the high priced versions are better just because they cost many times over the Chinese versions. Before you turn your nose up in snobbish fashion in disbelief, perhaps you would be the wiser to order some to try out. If you are honest, and not completely in denial by way of threatening your upscale audio fashion jewelry, then you will confirm what I am telling you as a fact. Perhaps there are those in denial who won't admit to it anyway.





Pan Ocean Ag-Cu-Oil 250v-630v Copper foil oil immersed axial capacitors:

◆ Structure

Imported 6N copper foil inner core
High tin content tin zinc alloy solder layer
PET metal coating, flame retardant epoxy resin encapsulation
Silver plated copper wire

◆ Process

German high-temperature industrial oil impregnation technology
High temperature vacuum heat treatment technology
New Asia independently develops "13 layer" gold spraying technology

◆ Characteristics

Extremely low loss, extremely low internal resistance, extremely low inductance
Stable working life of 100000 hours, unchanged sound quality
The outer sealing material has a shielding effect






People want to believe that premium components must be expensive to be good and worthwhile. Hey, so be it, but I for one do not play the part of a fool when it comes to being practical. What I am about to reveal to you is an absolute game changer when it comes to the best sounding audio capacitors available at an affordable price. Do what makes you feel is best. I am only trying to lend some solid advice in which to achieve your audio goal, at a sane price that most guys can afford and be very happy with.

There is a known psychological phenomenon which assumes higher prices with that of "higher quality," this being when the end quality standard is the very same between the price point extremes in many cases. It is the belief that paying more automatically signifies a higher degree of quality as a reciprocal objective to the purchase, thus becoming the ultimate influence upon the consumer, and the best possible choice within their mind. This phenomenon is referred to as the "price/quality halo effect".

Trust me, there is a reason why so much money is spent on marketing. People have to be convinced that the premium price they pay is necessary to get the quality they desire. This is a common trait among people in general. If one believes that something is the "best", regardless of cost, then naturally, that person will migrate to that purchase with the strict belief that this cost will be justified within the end result. But in reality, is this actually the case? The mind is very convincing. We believe what we choose to believe. Only we as individuals can change that perspective through knowledge and experience.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/30/25 at 03:17:08



Alright, so it is apparent to me that not all things replicated are the same exact quality as a premium component being the original. I placed a great deal of consideration concerning this factor, realizing that this can be a risk with substandard quality, or it could be the best purchase ever, providing the same exact premium sound quality as any of the other esoteric offerings by comparison, but at a fraction of the cost. This is a mighty big outcome to consider.

If the Chinese capacitors turn out to be inferior and not up to the task, then lesson learned, and I am out a chunk of money, but only at a "fraction" of which the other designs cost. Otherwise, I just discovered the best kept secret in audio with a superb choice at a budget price point. With that being so, I get what I want, and keep most of the money myself. It is said that one gets what they pay for. In this case, I am soon to find out that I just won the freak'n capacitor lottery!


I came to the conclusion for my capacitor choice in accordance with the actual experience I had trying different combinations with this experimental DAC. There was one thing that I strongly recalled from initial listening tests with the stock 3.3uf Solen capacitors in place.  After I replaced the Chinese 6n11 tubes with the 6dj8 types of better quality, I immediately noticed a huge change throughout the music spectrum for which led the sound in the right direction, yet limited by the substandard quality of the Solen low grade capacitors.

Even with the stock WIMA caps still in place without any bypass caps, I recalled one thing that stood out in that configuration. There was a very quick snappy sonic pulse that reminded me of a whip as the sound was perceived within the lower midrange to upper bass region. This was from a live concert event that presented a hard quick sonic pulse stemming from a Fender Telecaster, along with a strong bass note, reinforced with the first whack of the bass drum.

This powerful sonic event occurred with the 3.3uf Solen's, producing a perfect feeling of sonic intensity being fast, with forceful impact. This sonic pulse whizzed past my head with startling realism, as if a projectile was fired, just missing me. This truly represented a degree of speed within it's solid feel. This became the basis for my requirements with the upgrade caps. Of course, they will have to do much more than this, but I want this to become a reference which the new caps must recreate as a minimum.

After I removed the Solen's, replacing them with the ERSE pulse series 3.0uf capacitors, bypassed with a 0.10uf  Sprague PIO cap, this completely altered that perfect sonic event which I had with the Solen's, alongside a better set of tubes. Aside from that, everything else was in better perspective with a higher degree of enhancement across the entire musical spectrum. This is when I also noted that there is an uneven balance within the higher frequency registers which are now presenting an entirely new set of issues to deal with.

The Erse 3.0uf caps "bypassed" have created an entirely different sound signature for this DAC. Trust me, capacitors absolutely DO make a significant difference in what they do for the sound presentation. When you are dealing with a high level audio system along with a well balanced acoustic environment, this factor easily becomes open and distinguishable by a very large degree. Small changes are most certainly easy to discern from one change to another.

Don't expect this level of detection with substandard audio equipment in a room with poor acoustics. You simply won't perceive that same degree of detection. Everything needs to be in proper perspective for conclusive evidence to reveal itself in a meaningful manner. Always remember the "weakest link" analogy as it truly does rule the outcome.

Once that I removed the stock WIMA caps, replacing them with high quality Sprague PIO caps, bypassed with smaller values, this brought the balance back into perspective, but still not where I want to be with this DAC. It is tough to just try out fresh parts without extensive break-in in order to hear the reality of this upgrade within it's true potential. This process takes hundreds of hours to develop for peak presentation in general. But, the majority of what needs to be heard is present with at least 30 to 50 hours of playing time. You actually hear subtle changes in the state of progression as the hours increase.

At this point, I have the minimum break-in period past, so things are leveling out to a degree where reasonable evaluation can take place with decent results.  Once the WIMA caps were replaced and upgraded, and I reduced everything that I was testing by way of "bypass" caps, things began to get closer to my ideal sound expectation.

By simply reducing this combination to a single bypass of a small value for each main capacitor in the path by means of paper in oil designs, the high frequency situation leveled out to match the midrange more effectively which created a smoother presentation with less irritation of the treble.  At this point, I just assumed that it would take a good lengthy break-in period to allow this combination to really start sounding good with a nice sound signature.

Now, after careful evaluation in comparison to what I started with, I am close enough to make a determination concerning what direction these changes are going. I thought back to that moment with the 3.3uf Solen's in place, and then what I am hearing now. The one thing that gave me a solid logical perspective to go on when I make a decision on the cap upgrade, was that of the "sonic" moment I talked about earlier with the live performance and the snappy tight low frequency "punch" that caught my attention. As I stated, that was something that I must retain with the new caps that I decide to go with.  I am not detecting that sonic "punch" as I did with the 3.3uf range. After dropping down to the 3.0uf cap range, this sonic event is simply not there. I am very disappointed in that alone.

With this in mind, my conclusion is that based upon what I have heard, my goal is to replicate that same sonic signature which I am currently missing. Understand that this is the only aspect of the Solen caps that I liked enough to replicate if possible. There was nothing else special about them, and I doubt there ever would be. I have to surmise that by going back up to the 3.3uf capacitance range, and keeping the cap singular for better coherence, I should be able to recreate the sonic event that marked my attention.  It seems logical to do just that.

I really believe that nothing will sound better to me than a premium quality copper foil-in-oil capacitor, this being my primary objective to use exactly that. So I made the decision to order the full 3.3uf copper foil-in-oil capacitors from China and see where this goes. I just had a good feeling about the outcome with these in place. My intent is to replicate that fast snappy sound with a smooth presentation across the entire music spectrum. Other than that, the soundstage must be wide and full with an abundance of space between the instruments. Without this, the cap will fail to meet my expectations otherwise.

Now, remember that I am on a quest to find what I am looking for without breaking the bank. I brought up the query pondering whether this could be done successfully with complete satisfaction.  That answer was soon to come. But I knew that the inevitable break-in period would delay the outcome of this for some time before I could give an accurate answer and be fair about it.  The order was made, the caps are on the way from China.  This takes around 10 days to deliver here, sometimes less.

Moving forward, the caps arrived. These things are HUGE! They are heavy and typical of esoteric capacitors in this range of 3.3uf. They are 400v, so this makes them larger. They offer these in higher voltages, but not necessary for my application. They arrived with the exact capacitance measurement tags as tested before they shipped them. They are very close tolerance. So now I have the means to find the answer to my question concerning these caps. It is time to install them and see where this goes.  I am evaluating these with very critical ears for which they must be coherent within my strict expectations if I am to like them. Considering that I paid only $155.00 for the PAIR total, which included shipping costs, I have found a potentially great sounding set of caps for an exceptional bargain to meet my goal. The dice have been thrown.

Now, if they meet my expectations, then my answer is clear and I have found the ultimate solution.  I intend to take a devil's advocate approach to this with a possible expectation of the negative aspect to come through since price seems to factor the level of quality in most peoples minds.  I also want to be positive about this, providing a glimpse of promise as to how good they might actually be. Somehow, I get the feeling that these are going to surprise me in a good way.

These Chinese caps have to be far better than what I currently have. It is just a matter of what degree my level of satisfaction evolves with these. So the testing begins, and the results are pending. Rolling the dice, I just hope not to have snake eyes staring back at me in regret. Let the challenge begin.


I have semi-arranged a platform for the DAC layout which will be transferred into my custom metal chassis in the final form. Once I have found the final solution for how I expect this DAC to sound, the final version of this platform will be installed in the case and fully operational to meet my desired outcome.  I want to incur a minimum of 500 hours on the burn in period before deciding on the final form. If I feel completely satisfied with how it sounds at that time, it will be finalized and permanent at that point. I am not sure what to expect at first during initial burn in on a fresh set of caps, especially when it is uncertain whether or not these will prove to be quality assets for the DAC.

 From past experience, I expect to hear random drifting of the sound signature as the caps settle with strong coherence coming into focus after a reasonable amount of playing time if things go well. Usually, this tends to be a less than stellar experience within the initial stage of break-in. I expect the same with any set of new caps or tubes, this usually being the case. The common belief among audiophiles is that you must wait at least 200 plus hours before a new set of caps start sounding their best. So based on that, I will allow for that, expecting this to be the outcome for these new copper foil-in-oil capacitors. I expect it may be some time before I really know just how good these caps really are.

With that in mind, here is the reality of the current situation.  

The current upgrade configuration is as follows:

*The main capacitors upgraded to a single 3.3uf  400v copper foil-in-oil design (without a bypass cap).

*The four 0.22uf WIMA caps removed, and replaced with premium NOS Cornell Dubilier 0.22uf PIO types.
   (These are bypassed with premium NOS Sprague Vitamin Q 0.0022uf PIO types)

*The tube stage power supply caps which are premium Nippon KZH types, are bypassed with premium NOS Sprague Vitamin Q 0.10uf PIO caps.

*The power supply transformer for the tube output stage upgraded to a heavy duty high quality toroidal type.

*The tubes upgraded to far superior NOS Russian 6DJ8 types.


 There are many more modifications to come before I am finished with this DAC. I have a high quality R-Core transformer on the way which will replace the EI transformer currently powering the DAC power supply board. I just received a couple sets of high quality machined copper (panel mount) RCA sockets, along with high purity silver plated copper hook up wire with a Teflon coating. This is 18 gauge solid core, making it strong and stiff to keep a formed shape for routing without much support. The wires will be soldered directly beneath the tube output connector to keep it clear of the components on top.

The problem with the current cheap wiring harness is that it is highly susceptible to hum from close proximity to the tubes and capacitors. Routing this from the bottom will correct that for the most part. I intend to twist these three output signal wires together with a copper shield for absolute isolation from EMI/RFI interference. Hum will no longer be a concern. The new interconnect should improve the signal quality by a large margin.

I will be constructing isolation shields from sheet metal to form around the transformers, and the DAC board to prevent EMI/RFI interference. These will be lined with double sided conductive adhesive copper tape.  The entire set of DAC components are mounted to a heavy duty aluminum platform. The interior of the chassis will be lined with dual sided conductive adhesive copper tape for full isolation. If "Mu-Metal" wasn't priced like gold, I would have used that. Copper is a good substitute, and far more affordable to use for this purpose.

I plan to install an upgrade to the individual power supplies concerning DC filtering. These are in the form of capacitor bank modules which install between the transformers, and the power supplies. These act as an incoming power filter to clean up and regulate power going into the power supplies separately for the DAC board, and the tube output stage preamplifier board.  With clean regulated power combined with high quality PIO bypass caps for the power supplies, this should provide a clean stable signal path for optimal sound quality.

I really don't have an issue with dirty power coming in to the house. It is not perfect, but I believe it is much better than the common situation. My power comes strait from the fuse box with only one line being used for a bedroom. That circuit is only used for a lamp, and when off, nothing else in the circuit. It goes strait into my audio room from there. I use hospital grade receptacles and high quality copper house wiring which is all new since I built the audio room.

Once that level of upgrade mods have been completed, the final form will be simple tweaks concerning bypass capacitors if I decide it may be warranted in the future. Higher grade resistors and diodes could make a small difference to the outcome, but for now, they are just fine.

As for now, the DAC is going to sit as is for a good while as I let it get through the critical burn-in phase. The plan is for continuous play ten hours daily seven days a week when possible. This should advance the break-in period to around
300 hours per month. After one month, things should be stable and well seasoned for optimal evaluation. By the end of the second month, it should be sounding as good as it will get.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/30/25 at 03:22:12









So, back to the situation in current form after listening to this new configuration for a few days now.

My hopes are focused upon proper tonal balance and a smooth highly defined presentation. If this cures the high frequency situation, then I have found success with my choice in new capacitors for the tube stage. I have done much to correct for that, but it still is a ways from being acceptable to the point where I listen and say, I am done!

Okay, the equipment is warmed up and ready to go. The volume dial is set to the eleven o'clock position from a dead stop null position at nine o'clock. If I recall, full volume is maxed out at around the five o'clock position, or close to that. This of course being the ToriMK3 amplifier with the Mullard reissue EL34 power tubes.

This test is without the C9 in the loop, straight into the amplifier from the DAC. The speakers are full range without any crossover networks to color the signal. What is heard is strait from the amp, direct linked to the DAC itself. It is as pure of a path as possible. The speaker cables are flat ribbon copper foil conductors wrapped in wax paper. Terminations are machined solid copper.

The source recordings I use are mostly premium high quality discs from audiophile grade studio masters. Some of these discs are mastered in HDCD, LPCD, and K2HD 24 bit/100kHz masters. Others are just regular 16 bit red-book discs which are very well recorded.


As I place the first disc into the transport and hit play, I am prepared to accept the fact that this could really sound bad with these fresh caps. But I reasoned that if they are actually great quality comparable to the most expensive esoteric designs, then it should sound reasonably good at first, at least being enjoyable with the knowledge that they won't sound anywhere as good as they will after complete burn-in. That being the case, I have to start somewhere as it is time to get this ball rolling forward. I have faith that these will sound much better right now than the Erse caps I just replaced with these.

Have you ever had one of those moments that you saw something shocking that you know really happened, but you didn't expect what you just witnessed, taken back by a bit of shock and awe? The result of which it took a bit of time to make sense of what just happened before it really makes sense.

That pretty much sums up what my newfound experience was within the first 30 seconds of hearing these new capacitors. I am expecting something a bit off, knowing that they need to be burned in with proper seasoning before they should actually sound the way that they should. My audio perception went from zero to 100 in microseconds! The initial experience was not merely good, but profoundly fantastic from the starting line the instant the green signal lit up on the tree! A perfect launch without a false start. I knew instantly that I made the right choice, one that will only get better. That is really hard to imagine after hearing what is exposed already. I am instantly gratified by the sound that I hear filling the room around me. I could not have made a better choice.

I am so pleased with how these Chinese copper foil-in-oil capacitors have already surpassed my expectations, that any further improvement will only be a bonus that I won't feel the need to wait for. If the sound of this DAC remained just as it is now, I would be completely satisfied without any thought what so ever of needing additional upgrades. This is one of those moments in audio when you know instantly beyond a shadow of doubt that things are so near perfect, that I don't want to screw it up with any more changes.

So after a few hours of total sonic bliss, I begin to wonder if this will sound good for just the first 10 or so hours, then begin to shift in awkward ways as the break-in process develops. I have experienced that very thing with other new components. Well, here it is after three nights and many hours of listening. I am still waiting for that deviation in sound quality.

Meanwhile, I just found the deal of the century as it cured everything that was wrong with the sound of this DAC. Actually, this became the final touch to establish what I hear now in perfect harmony with the previous mods that I made. It all paid off beyond my expectations, and they are pretty high. This makes me feel accomplished in my goal. I have won the battle.

I am almost ready to say DONE! But not quite yet. I still have the final upgrades to install, and then get these components permanently mounted in the case.


For now, I am very pleased with what I am hearing, so pleased that I don't feel the need to try anything else. When something is right, you just know it. It is not a good idea to tamper with perfection.  If I still feel the same way after a month goes by, then this will be final. Then I will claim to be DONE!  Of course, these are famous last words, so time will tell the whole story.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/30/25 at 03:37:06

























Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/30/25 at 03:56:26







































The final upgrade parts coming soon.

Stay tuned.


[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 03/30/25 at 10:25:37

Quote:
There was a very quick snappy sonic pulse that reminded me of a whip as the sound was perceived within the lower midrange to upper bass region. This was from a live concert event that presented a hard quick sonic pulse stemming from a Fender Telecaster, along with a strong bass note, reinforced with the first whack of the bass drum.


Moments like those that set my feet tapping into audio bliss losing tract of time. Then later used for evaluation purposes which can lead to aggravated mental fatigue.

Did you get the Zrock3? I'm still on the fence with my Zrock2 but found a good use for it in loop 3 of my system.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 03/30/25 at 19:03:24


Actually, my order is the next Zrock3 to go on the bench. The one before me is in the testing stage. I expect my status to move into "bench status" in the next couple of days. Once I see mine going into quality control status, I will give them a call and pay up in full. I want this thing shipped immediately without delay.

My Zrock3 will have all options, including upgraded caps, the anniversary mods, and the tube regulation installed. So it pretty much is the best unit that Decware can offer me with options available.  If I would have known how superior these copper foil in oil caps were at the time I ordered this unit, I would have passed on the upgraded cap expense and upgraded these caps myself with these superb caps I use now. They are that great. I will be placing these caps in everything that can benefit from them eventually, because there is simply no other choice as far as I am concerned.

I am going to stockpile more of these caps in various values for future projects. I want them before the price skyrockets due to popularity.

To tell you the truth, I have extreme doubt that I will find much need for the Zrock3 unit. My new tube stage pretty much does everything that this unit is said to do. I have been trying out some standard CD's that I haven't played in quite awhile because they sounded so horrible, and quite unplayable. I gave up on trying to enjoy those recordings long ago.

These bad recordings were the basis why I chose to order the Zrock3 in the first place. I certainly don't need it for premium recordings with my current DAC. So, just out of curiosity, I brought some out that were among the worst of the bunch. I really didn't expect much hope for these, but this will really give the new DAC a chance to shine if there really is any hope for these to sound good.

I was actually impressed with the "correction" of these recordings using the latest modifications with the DAC. That "stressed" brittle digital sound was gone, replaced with a nice well rounded presentation which could have fooled me into thinking I was listening to better recordings of these discs. These Chinese caps are the primary reason being an integral aspect of the tube buffer stage that makes this possible. From what I hear so far, this DAC acts like an auto correction filter which really enhances and transforms bad recordings into something that is actually decent for listening.

When things are good, they are very good, when things are bad, these things are much closer to being good if that makes sense. In other words, there is much more good to the sound than bad compared to before.

The Original Musical Fidelity X-10 buffer stage was designed for that very reason. This was a very popular British design that came about many years ago when the digital format was introduced. The very purpose to make digital sound much closer to analog, as what people were used to hearing with vinyl albums on the turntable. It does a very good job of doing just that, and then some!  I have yet to hear vinyl with this level of dynamics and presence. I had better than fifty grand tied up into a professional grade vinyl system, including a very expensive audiophile grade album collection. So yes, I am comparing this to something top shelf.

I do not have to worry about the "madness" factor as I conclude with the upgrades of this DAC. I have found exactly what I was looking for. It is just a matter of final tweaks and last minute minor upgrades which are simply the icing on the cake. So yes, you can surmise that I retained that snappy bass line with all of it's presence intact just as I expect it to be. What this means is that everything that I listen to is exactly the way I expect to hear the music within the entire presentation. As I said, I have won the battle. The war is over, and the spoils are gained.

As for the current state of evaluation, it is like the energizer bunny, it just keeps going, and going, and going, and no sign of falter. I simply am satisfied at this point with zero need to look any further. Does that mean that future upgrades will never happen? Most likely not. Things happen out of curiosity. There is never an end to the audio madness. But do I feel the need to do so? Absolutely not!

I think that my state of mental "aggravation" is finally over with this new DAC. I predict nothing but pure audio bliss from this point forward. Whether or not this leaves any place for the new Zrock3 to fit in, that remains to be heard. That is a damn expensive unit for something that I may not need. ( over $1800.00 with tax and shipping )  I shall be putting this device under close scrutinization to see what it can offer my system. Things will be told exactly as they unravel through evaluation. I shall determine if that chunk of money is worth the investment in my situation. If not, someone will have the chance to get this unit at full price without the build sheet waiting period. I shall give this unit the benefit of the doubt and see where it goes. I will have patience and not jump to conclusions without a fair trial.

Oh, and of course, this new unit will require the same burn-in process for some time before I can honestly critique it's performance. Just let it season along with everything else.


If I am this pleased with the current state of upgrades, then imagine how satisfied I will be after 500 hours have been established on this DAC. That should prove to be quite interesting in the end result. By mid year, that shall become a reality. I will have my new bass drivers ready by that time. Then those will need extensive break-in. So one way or another, this never really ends. But it does keep getting better.

Just keeping it real!

More on this later.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 04/01/25 at 10:54:35
So RPS you got me to pull the trigger! Not on your DAC kit but a couple of 2.2uf German processed copper oil impregnated caps you referenced. The Stoke DAC needs the output caps refreshed. Milflex CU caps have gone up in price a good bit in the last couple of years. Looking forward to see how these compare.

Might be headed out your way to audition a turntable in the Columbus area. Maybe a side trip to PE. I'll let you know if it materializes.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 04/01/25 at 23:32:25

JB, I am pleased to hear that you took my advice. I would not steer you wrong. If you don't for some crazy reason like these caps, let me know and I will buy them from you. I am certain of one thing, you will not want to part with them.

I have a feeling that you will feel just as I do about them. Once you let people know how much you like them, many are going to be curious and want to try these for themselves. This is exactly what needs to happen. Once these catch on, they are going to be the new best thing in capacitors. You can pay more if you want to, but why?

Nice thing about these, you don't have to go through a waiting period before they start sounding good. These sound great from day one! You will know instantly that you made the wise choice.

I am curious about this new turntable adventure. I need to hear about this, must be a major purchase. I'm sure you will reveal the details in due time.

So what motivates the trip to Peoria? Are you auditioning something there at Decware?  Hey, sounds like a reason for a road trip. I just may be interested.


8-)


Later.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by JBzen on 04/02/25 at 11:16:29
I'll most likely pay a visit to Decware sometime this year but not soon. I was thinking of visiting Parts Express during the potential Columbus trip. I found another table closer to home and planning a listening session this week.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 04/11/25 at 02:17:11


As you may know if you've been paying attention, the huge tariffs between the US and China are about to go into force.

It sounds like China is threatening an increase close to 150 percent. In retaliation, we are going to match that. So, if you need to order any goods from Ali-express, you better hurry up because this is about to take effect any moment.  

As it is, it may already be too late to beat this. From what I have heard, it is possible that the US Post Office may levy a fee upon any incoming packages from China which we as the consumer will be charged. This is something possibly to the effect of $25.00 per package, or it could be a flat 30 percent charge on the imported goods. There is no limit to the dollar amount value of the package the way it used to be.

At any rate, this may end up not happening if negotiations go as they usually do when we actually have the balls to fight and win!

For now, if you want to get any items from China at current prices, you best hurry up and get those orders in by tomorrow. That might already be too late.

Customs will get you when your product arrives in their possession. Just the same way Canada has enforced brutal tariffs upon US goods for many years, it will be the same here with China.

On that note (and I don't want to see any bitching about this situation on my thread), I have a few recommendations for you to consider which is going to be super expensive in the very near future.

These are the items of interest:


I highly recommend that you get as many of the following capacitors as displayed in this post. These are the Holy Grail of capacitors at a ridiculous low price, at least up to now. After the new tariffs go into action, these will most likely double in cost (or more) from the way it is going. That means MIFLEX prices! Up until now, these caps are just as good as any other esoteric design, but at a fraction of the price. That is about to change making these excellent capacitors just as expensive.

No matter what, there will be a price increase.

I ordered a large variety of audio capacitors under the Pan Ocean brand which I highly recommend if you want the best there is. I ordered some copper foil in oil caps, along with many MKP caps, with some being directional depending upon the use called for them. I also ordered a few transformers, some power rectification boards, some soft start boards, and also, a couple of already high priced LPCD 1:1 Master recordings which are manufactured in China. These are the ultimate offerings for purist Audiophiles. The only thing better is the original master tapes, and not by much.


I got a few of these in larger values where foil in oil caps are not offered.

These are high quality MKP capacitors which I will be trying out soon in another project.












I ordered a bunch of these for general use where a good quality film capacitor is needed.









And now for the Holy Grail of Audio Capacitors, get these while you can!







● Technical highlights

◆ Structure

Imported 6N copper foil inner core
High tin content tin zinc alloy solder layer
PET metal coating, flame retardant epoxy resin encapsulation
Silver plated copper wire

◆ Process

German high-temperature industrial oil impregnation technology
High temperature vacuum heat treatment technology
New Asia independently develops "13 layer" gold spraying technology

◆ Characteristics

Extremely low loss, extremely low internal resistance, extremely low inductance
Stable working life of 100000 hours, unchanged sound quality
The outer sealing material has a shielding effect


I AM SO IMPRESSED BY THE SOUND QUALITY OF THESE COPPER FOIL IN OIL CAPS THAT I WILL USE NOTHING ELSE!

And they cost peanuts compared to the over inflated MIFLEX caps for the same level of performance.


You have no idea as to how good these really are until you try them. It is as simple as that.


As for the audiophile grade 1:1 Master recordings, I ordered these today to add to my growing collection of LPCD offerings.

If they are as great as the others (no reason to doubt it), then these will be the best versions of these recordings ever produced in the studio. You need to read up on the LPCD process and understand the technology and the focus to understand why. Otherwise, just listen to one and there will be zero doubt in your mind.














And here are a couple of interest that I want to order:

These are audiophile grade SHM-CD titles.







And that price is 50 percent off! The SHM-CD versions are far superior to standard redbook CD's. For all twelve albums included, this is a steal!



Another Sarah Brightman in a sealed SHM-CD version:





Now, here are a few interesting tidbits that caught my attention:


This would be the minimum consideration for me to get into vinyl again. I will only consider tables with Air Bearing linear tonearms such as this one. Then comes the uber expensive MC cartridge, followed by a tube phono stage and a step up transformer. Doesn't take long to hit the $10,000 ceiling with vinyl if it is to be worth getting into.








Perhaps the price won't go up that much, but you can expect at least double that already high price.

:o

I guess I won't be ordering this anytime soon. I find this interesting and would consider it. Perhaps in the future.


8-)


Now for something REALLY scary:






Looks familiar doesn't it?  Good luck trying to sell these in the US with what these will soon cost! I guess Steve won't have to worry about competition from China on these speakers.


[smiley=tunes51.gif]


And this design is similar to what my next set of main speakers are going to look like. Mine however, will be far more complex than this rendition of the 1950's Jensen Ultra-Flex designs.  I will have dual stereo 15 inch bass cabinets to augment the mains using 99 dB efficient Celestion neodymium drivers.  But the look is close. I like it.






Anyway, not sure if this means anything to anybody out there, but I thought some here on the forum might be interested to get this information.



 Don't worry about prices, just get an increase on your credit limit.


                                              ;D




Good luck and happy shopping!


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/06/25 at 01:27:31


A great deal has taken place since my last post here. I have finished up the new tube DAC with all of the mods I wanted installed. The DAC has several hundred hours of burn-in time on it now making it fully seasoned and optimal for the best performance.  

Just recently, my new ZROCK3 with full anniversary mods and tube regulation arrived. It now has about 50 plus hours on it  as I give it time to get properly burned-in as well. My initial impression of this unit fresh with zero time on it was not a good experience. What I heard the first time I listened to it was as if someone was playing a cruel joke on me at my expense. I for one was not laughing. I thought for sure that the unit was going up for immediate sale, as it was just not good enough in my system, far from it. The sound was degraded beyond words, something I was not going to let ruin the spectacular sound quality I have going without it in the signal path.

Fortunately, I knew from experience that this was to be expected with a fresh "green" unit, until the fresh film and foil capacitors have sufficient time to settle in to start sounding the way they should. If you doubt that, then you have a great deal to learn about high end tube based audio.

As of last night, I re-listened to see how progress was going. And of course, my preliminary assumption was correct. Things did go as expected. I could not believe the drastic difference after just a mere 50 hours or so of playing time. I allowed the unit to play silently when I was not listening to music.  Lets just say that last night turned over a new leaf and things are definitely improving.

It was nowhere near as bad as it was the first time I listened to it just days ago. I believe the verdict stands that there is indeed promise ahead. The glimpse into the future last night was very convincing. I will NOT be placing this unit up for sale anytime soon! The ZROCK3 should be fully seasoned with well over 300 to possibly 400 hours on it by the end of the month. If it is not clear to me what lies in store for my audio system with this unit in place by that time frame, then the conclusion shall remain a quandary at that point. I believe the end result will be very positive in which to solidify my full appreciation for what the ZROCK3 can really do for quality music reproduction. Time will tell.

There will be much more to come regarding the ZROCK3 and my impressions of it during extensive music evaluations ahead.

For now, I want to catch up on the progress made with the DAC tube buffer stage as it is currently in final form providing optimal performance.



First, let me reminisce about the first time I listened to this DAC in a "RAW" basic stage both with the opamp that was included with the DAC, and then without the opamp installed, bypassed directly to the tube buffer stage in stock form. Let me tell you, things sounded pretty rough in those early stages. There was major upgrades and mods to be done before this DAC was to achieve high praise.

It became immediately apparent that I was never going to use the opamp stage, as I determined there was zero chance of ever making this device sound good by any measure. That experience was horrible, kind of like what the new ZROCK3 sounded like the first time I heard it when fresh. This is something that simply doesn't belong in a premium audio system.


They say that a picture is worth a thousand words, so I have heard many times. With that in mind, I am going to show you an image of what this awful sound experience was like in my mind.  May be a bit extreme, but I think you will get the picture, literally.



This is what was conjured up when I first heard the new DAC using the opamp stage with no tube buffer in place.





That very image came back into play the first time I tried to listen with the new ZROCK3 in the signal chain. Damn that was nasty!




Then, I permanently removed the opamp from the socket for total bypass to the outboard tube buffer stage.  This was stock form using the Chinese 6n11 tubes, and Solen output capacitors. The power supply was extremely inadequate, as the included EI transformers were absolute junk, and far from being good enough.  These three factors formed a major influence upon the sound which was tolerable, much better than the opamp counterpart, but indeed needing some major transformation.

So at this early stage with zero mods or upgrades, this was the new image I was perceiving from the sound of this DAC.





Even though it is not exactly the best image possible, it was a far improvement over what the opamp stage sounded like.



Then the initial mods took place. The Chinese 6n11 tubes were upgraded to far better Russian 6dj8 varients. The transformer for the tube stage was upgraded to a high quality toroid design, improving the power supply by a very large degree.  Things were starting to take shape in a very positive way, laying the groundwork for additional mods.




So as can be imagined by this image, the sound quality was coming into focus with better clarity, and a wider sense of spatial properties. Much more detail is developing at this point with a far more listenable experience. The sound-stage  took on a newer sense of space and dimension.


At this point, it was time to start experimenting with capacitor changes as the stock Solen 3.3 uf output caps were far from being conducive to quality sound. They had good low frequency range, and a mediocre mid-range which was similar to consumer grade quality found in mainstream stereo components. It was okay, but not what it takes to make the grade in serious audiophile level components. As for higher frequencies starting in the upper mid-range, these sound pathetic in that range and that is where they really fall short. (These caps were previously used and burned_in)

This area was where the next level of change was going to make the transition into high end audiophile grade territory with the respect that only comes by way of superior design implementing a purist approach to quality audio components. This is where we begin to see light at the end of the upgrade tunnel.


After a good bit of trial, I found the sound I was looking for by way of superb original old stock Sprague and Russian military surplus paper in oil capacitors of premium build quality and materials.

The key was to find a good relationship between a high quality base cap, enhanced by that of a high quality bypass cap to fine tune the final signal form.  

With that in mind, I had only a few small value bypass caps which were Sprague PIO Vitamin Q caps from years gone by in the electronics world. For the main capacitor, I only had a couple of  ERSE "pulse series" 3.0 uf  metalized film capacitors as a base cap to replace the Solens with. I enhanced the ERSE caps with a Vitamin Q 0.1 uf bypass cap at first, then later added an additional set of bypass caps in the higher frequency range to see where it would go.

Things were definitely getting interesting now as this set the standard for a new level of quality within this DAC tube stage. There was great promise revealing itself at this point.

With the new capacitor configuration in place, this image represents how the sound became much closer to the ideal image.





Although not as good as it gets, you can see how much of an improvement is gained just from the upgrades made so far.  What a difference just decent tubes, transformers, and capacitors make to the overall transformation in sound quality. It is simply a matter of fine tuning now with the best premium grade parts to choose from which will provide the final stage of improvement to this DAC.  I know that copper foil in oil capacitors are going to be the ultimate choice for this DAC. That is the direction of the next upgrade.


Next, I replace the ERSE metalized film caps with audiophile grade premium copper foil in oil capacitors which are huge and heavy by comparison to the metal film counterparts. This is where things are going to get really good. This is what separates mediocre DACS with the top of the line premium DACS, which cost thousands of dollars in a range where most audio purists can't afford.  But in the DIY world, armed with knowledge, and the right degree of experimentation and high quality components, an assimilation of those top end DACS can be cloned for a fraction of the retail price, without sacrificing the quality of the end result by comparison. A premium DAC chip-set in conjunction with a high quality low jitter transport is all that is required with this tube stage to get you there. The end result is astonishing to say the least.


At this stage, the new oversize copper foil in oil capacitors are in place WITHOUT any bypass capacitors installed. This is simply a single cap output full range at 3.3uf. Now, the image has taken on a whole new level of perception. This is now a level of sophisticated beauty which leaves nothing to the imagination. Things are getting so very close now in regards to the ultimate sound.

At this level, this is what you may imagine with the current upgrades in place. The difference is dramatic and indeed spectacular!  I am getting very close to my goal.





The thing that is still missing is the clarity in regards to the highest frequencies. The image could still use a bit of final tweaking to get the image crystal clear across the entire musical spectrum. This is where the right choice in bypass capacitors is going to make the difference and clear things up with perfect optical enhancement.

I still need to upgrade the transformer for the DAC stage which will be upgraded to a premium R-core design. This will improve the power supply for the DAC stage significantly. The final touch will be the addition of a soft start circuit in the main power supply coming from the outlet current into the DAC. This will extend the life of the DAC circuit by eliminating the "in-rush" of power which is very hard on components. This also prevents harsh thuds when the power is turned on. This soft start circuit also provides additional overload protection which should never be overlooked.


Before I get to that stage, the following is where I remove the four 0.022uf WIMA capacitors from the signal chain coming into the tube stage from the DAC chipset. I replaced these with Sprague Vitamin Q PIO capacitors complemented each with a 0.0022uf Vitamin Q bypass capacitor.

This upgrade has once again made a major improvement in the sound quality which seems to have formulated the perfect high frequency solution. It is almost where I want this DAC to be. I have one more tweak to try after this concerning the main 3.3 uf CU_OIL caps. This should get me within the range I seek to find.


This image portrays the visual enhancement after replacing the WIMA caps with premium paper in oil capacitors with bypass values of 0.0022uf. The optical clarity seen in her eyes represents the upper frequency balance which came into focus with high resolution after this last upgrade.  The backdrop of the image is still in need of final improvement which I believe the proper bypass cap added to the premium CU_OIL 3.3 uf base caps will provide to clear things up within optimal levels.




The final image represents my final achievement once the R-core transformer, the soft start circuit, and the final addition of Russian military surplus K75-10 PIO 0.1uf bypass capacitors along with a Sprague paper in oil Vitamin Q 0.0022uf bypass capacitor for a very superb combination in frequency balance. This set of bypass capacitors enhance the large 3.3uf copper foil in oil output capacitors for the tube buffer stage. It was just the right touch to bring everything into extreme focus with a sound as close to perfection as one could expect. Very natural, very smooth, very clean, very dynamic, superbly detailed, and with a degree of ambience which just grabs hold of your attention with utter fascination. In other words, the music is alive with an atmosphere that almost emulates the real thing.


This was the final touch that got me there.



PLUS THESE TOGETHER FOR THE BYPASS CAPS:



The final upgrade was to replace the output cable from the tube buffer stage going out to the amplifier. I custom built a heavy gauge harness using premium solid core silver/copper/teflon wire and soldered the terminations directly into the PCB for a strong secure connection. These go directly to premium grade RCA jacks for signal output.


Once the new R-core transformer and soft start added to this, I have achieved a sound quality which simply can't be surpassed by any regard. I now have the nearly perfect DAC which excels far above what I ever expected it to be in the beginning. Indeed, this marks an achievement of excellence in digital to analog preservation. The purpose of this tube buffer stage is to make the music sound as close to the sound of vinyl as possible. In my opinion, that has been achieved very easily, and by no way inferior to the best turntable systems out there. I've been down that road, so yes, I do have a direct relationship in that regard. You have your opinion, and I have mine, period.


What I hear now in the final form is simply conveyed without reservation in the following image. This very much conveys the sonic accuracy which I now enjoy using high quality reference recordings as a source. No ZROCK3 needed when using premium well engineered recordings from studio master tapes. That is reserved for the poorly engineered releases only.





So, with that bit of info in place, I shall show you a series of images during the progression of this DAC build.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/06/25 at 01:55:42







It is absolutely necessary to fabricate completely sealed FARADAY CAGES in order to properly isolate the most sensitive components. This is required to block noise inducing EMI/RFI interference into the DAC.

Without this in place, the close proximity of these sensitive components react as a radio receiver and hum becomes a major problem. The hum is picked up by the wire harness which carries the output signal from the tube stage out to the amplifier. I do NOT have ground loop issues. If I installed isolation transformers between the DC and AC power supplies, it still would not prevent this. Once everything is shielded with copper dual-sided conductive tape, the problem is eliminated.


Now, the volume can be turned up to maximum with 93dB sensitive speakers and you will not hear even the slightest bit of hum. In fact, the speakers are practically dead silent at close range with the volume maxed out (not playing a source of course).   I have a very quiet system and fairly clean power coming into the house. Noise or hum have never been an issue with my audio system.  I intend to keep it that way.


So that is the reason for everything being enclosed with copper shielding. Otherwise, my system would be picking up and amplifying these undesirable aspects.









This is the toroid transformer used for the tube stage power supply.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/06/25 at 02:45:12































































All that remains is to refinish the cosmetic aspects and get it completely assembled for the finished look.

Currently, I am completely absorbed into the extreme musical experience which this DAC so easily conveys in a natural manner. The cosmetics come later.



And that is build #1.


I shall take a break for awhile and just enjoy the music before starting the next project.


[smiley=tunes57.gif]


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/21/25 at 01:13:14



Alright, after a nice break while doing important spring house and yard projects, it is time to start the next project for my audio room.

I have a large parts list which I will be making orders for tomorrow for the upcoming projects. I already have a large surplus of parts just recently acquired for future audio projects which are in the cue.

I have also been busy creating my own remastered audio files using a very good studio app which allows me to DE-compress each and every one of my digital collection titles which became the mainstream victims of retarded studio tactics which take a fine studio master, and turn it into a pile of nasty dung. This being the exact reason why the ZROCK3 exists in my system now with bypass capabilities.

With the "CORRECT" degree of restructuring the dynamic range of the music void of clipping, I have refined a process which allows me to fine tailor the entire frequency spectrum close to what it was before the retards in the studio decided to remaster these titles with heavy compression. Crush a soda can and then try to refill it with the same contents as it came with originally. Not gonna work now is it!  Besides now being virtually worthless, it is now just an ugly reminder of what once was. This analogy is very much an example of what happened to the music as these morons destroyed the very essence of what made the music special in the first place as the musicians produced it on the master tape.

Finalized with a virtually flat frequency response EQ'd across the entire music spectrum, I do provide a 3db bump in the 40 to 50 Hz range followed by a slight cut around 60 Hz to limit the nasty resonance which occurs there. I also reduce the 1 kHz range by 3db to eliminate the annoying "nasal" sound which occurs at that frequency. Need a bit less "honk" before leading into the critical mid-range.

Initially, the original CD is copied using lossless FLAC format as the base set of music files. Then the files are exported into the studio mastering app and modified there. Once created in finished form, these music files are saved as high definition 16 bit 44100 versions which are playable on standard CD players. The finished product is now close to what a HDCD sounds like and in most cases, one can't tell the difference in quality or presence between the two formats on a high end system.

This takes a piece of crap and restores it back to a shiny jewel in which to admire, the way it should have been mastered in the first place.

The way I "correct" my music source really reduces the need for a ZROCK3 in most cases since I restored the music with software rather than creating this restoration with hardware using signal processing in the loop. I am not leaving much to be improved upon.

However, with that said, this does not mean that the ZROCK3 is no longer needed, NO, not by a long shot! I can tell you that you won't feel the loss of it not being in the audio chain with HQ recordings which are mastered correctly. But when you add it's charm within the signal processing once dialed in to the right degree, even with HQ recordings, there is now an even further advanced presence which brings out that extra bit of depth and balance which has always been lacking in digital music.  This very unique device bears a capability which never existed before in ANY audio component in terms of what it is designed to do.

The ZROCK3 with all anniversary mods and tube regulation brings the presence of digital music comparatively close to the best high quality vinyl counterparts (talking very high end turntable systems costing tens of thousands of dollars). This of course only possible with an extreme high end DAC, Transport, and most importantly, a well designed tube buffer stage, bypassing the poison which the typical opamp stage injects into the final sound. With the opamps removed, sending the signals directly out into the tube buffering stage using a set of premium tubes and high quality capacitors, this is what it takes to really get the most out of digital music followed up by the ZROCK3 to perform it's audio magic.

As this is where my system is at today, I am in complete audio bliss each and every time I experience one of my personally remastered music titles brought back to original full restoration, within a properly designed acoustical environment.

This is truly like hearing all of this music as if it was the first time, with all of its divine content exposed freely and openly in a degree which I guarantee you that 99 percent of the population has no clue to what is really present within the music.

 I have been chasing this audio obsession for almost fifty years with an expenditure which I don't care to disclose. Nothing has ever brought me this close to what really lies within these studio recordings as I am experiencing today. So far off as a matter of fact, that I never thought it would be possible to get to this point. Everything else is under restraint by comparison.

If you were to listen for just a short time in my current audio setting, and first, I have you listen to a recent so called "studio remaster" of an old recording when CD's were first being produced in the early 80's, you won't be in much awe of what you hear. If you saw how crushed and compacted the waveform is on one of the remastered failures,you would see why this is so.

Then, take a look at how my waveform looks after restoration. It is immediately apparent as to what a huge difference this will make to the sound quality and presence. The actual playback demonstration will have you cursing the fools who produced these absolutely horrific examples of freshly painted dung with false promise being the best you ever heard.

What a freak'in joke the whole music industry really is. We are the suckers who get shafted in the end with a substandard product, and just have to deal with it.  That is until now.

Now today, let me place you in my prime listening position as I have you listen to one of my corrected masters of the same CD you listened to earlier. You won't believe it is the same CD, and you will really have a hard time processing the huge difference that the restored version easily conveys in robust form when you hear it.  Trust me, you will never listen to the original studio crap again once you have this newly refined disc. Finally, you get to experience the sonic truth which has always evaded your system and your ears. I never thought it would be possible to do this once the music waveform was heavily compressed. Rejoice people, it is absolutely possible and easy to do with today's technology.

I must say that Steve has outdone himself with this design. I have to think that there must have been a divine presence directing him to this design, as it is truly unique, and exactly what is needed to correct for this situation. So to all the idiot music executives, we DON'T have to deal with the crap you sold us anymore. We can now enjoy the music the way it should have been the day we bought the CD in the first place, the way that the musicians wanted their music presented.


I think back to how the Carver C9 Sonic Hologram Generator was the most sought after and desired component which Bob designed and produced. His main forte was building unique amplifier designs as his main business objective.  The C9 design gave the audio world the first and only device to correct for stereo inter-aural cross-talk which began way back in 1979. It ended up that a signal processor was his claim to fame and the largest selling device under his direction by a long shot.

Even today after many decades, this device is still the only true device which corrects for the problem we are all plagued with without it in the audio signal path. By comparison to all modern designs which try to emulate what the C9 does, the C9 still stands as the ultimate solution at a fraction of what these modern devices cost. No matter how hard you try to recreate the wheel, nothing will outperform the base form of the wheel itself. You just get alternate versions which for the most part are as the original was when it was created at it's peak potential.

This is one of a limited offerings in the audio world which I feel truly justifies whatever it costs to get it into your audio system. I can't say that for the majority of audio devices being sold today at such ridiculous prices, far over what these components are actually worth.  When a breakthrough in technology provides us with a new and far superior solution to substandard audio, then by all means, it should be priced accordingly to what it can actually deliver.

So far in my nearly fifty years of audio experience, there have only been a few components which I would consider without reservation as those which one must purchase if they are to hear their music in true form in which they have been denied.


That first device is the C9 which came into existence back around early 1980 or close to that date. Even today, I am not satisfied without it.

Then in (if I am correct), or close to, 1996 when Decware first had an online presence, I found that there was much more to offer in the audio world than what these audio stores were hyping up in the audio rags with their overpaid so called audio experts deceiving us as audio fools, not audiophiles.  I only had experience with solid state technology and that was what dominated the market when I was younger.  If someone would have tried to sell me a tube amp, I would have almost laughed at them.

You know it had to be a difficult and risky venture to reinvent the tube based audio market with a new aspect which takes it from the past and brings it to the forefront of a heavily controlled and dominated market in the audio business. After all, we as the ignorant consumer, are supposed to believe and accept whatever the corporate demigods tell us that we should like since they know what is best for us.  I just love the fools today that still try to argue the superiority of what is best for you based upon measurements.

After all, if a solid state amp measures far cleaner than a tube amp, then it should sound far better, RIGHT?  Well, there are many of us today that know quite clearly what the answer to that state of mental failure actually measures up to be.

These are usually the geeks that never even had an amplifier to compare with, only the monthly rags which they base their decisions upon.  Hey, if Joe Blow reviewer tells you that only his choice of a product is the very best you can get, then you better do what he says. He is just doing what he gets paid to do. The buyer just continues to fuel the deception.

My take on this....PROVE IT!   And that is exactly what Decware did as it all started with one man, and one dream.  Today, many of us have had the good fortune of sharing that dream.  Steve's main strength is designing amplifiers which go beyond the typical competitor offerings. These unique amplifier designs are what fueled Decware's success, nothing else. All of these other things are just fluff as side offerings. The amplifiers are the crown jewels here.

With the invention of the ZROCK concept, this made a breakthrough for which now, this has become the most important audio component ever built. Not only in the Decware product line-up, but in the entire audio industry as a whole.

This is the only other device other than the C9 which I can say are totally unique in what they do, and without any competitor design to offer what these devices offer in abundance.  I believe that the ZROCK3 is the culmination of vast experience within the designer's mind. Years of thinking outside of the box is exactly what brought this concept into fruition.

 As a result, we enjoy the benefits which we now know are vital to our perception of quality music reproduction. This is another example of not knowing what we were missing until we are offered the experience which enlighten us.  With that said, it is my opinion that the ZROCK3 is the highest achievement ever devised from Decware, one that will always hold a special place where there is nothing else like it. If you do not get one of these, you will never know just how good your system could have been if only you had.

Look, I was on the fence about buying this device without hearing it. I really could not perceive in my mind the actual strengths of this device and how it could be possible.  In a world where I have seen endless gimmicks and false promises by the competition, It just seemed a bit overblown in realistic fashion.  What I am trying to say is this, it is virtually impossible for one to convey what this device does for music regardless if I wrote a book about it. There are no words to accurately describe what it does, or how you will actually perceive it. This is one device that truly MUST be experienced before you even begin to understand it's importance and how it will change your music enjoyment forever.

There was only one Mozart in the music world. All others simply try to emulate what made his music so special. Many have tried, most if not all have failed to ever actually succeed in that attempt.  Just think of the new ZROCK3 as a critical component of Mozart's writing style. In many ways, there is a strong correlation as to the unique strengths which they convey within their purpose.  How different would the classical era of great composers have been had Mozart never existed?  Think hard about that, and how that relates to what components you choose to build your audio system with.


So, all I really wanted to say was that only two audio devices in my vast years of audio enjoyment have ever truly impressed me to the point where I believe I can't enjoy audio without them. As far as I am concerned, these two devices are the greatest achievements in the audio world and I strongly support that.

Those two greatest achievements are the Carver C9 which is over 45 years old now, and the fairly recent discovery of the ZROCK3 if fully equipped of all refinements and high quality capacitors. My system would have never evolved to this level of superiority if not for these very critical components. If I had not experienced these for myself, I may have never known just how special the reproduction of quality music really is. I thought that I did, but you know, it is said that ignorance is bliss.  Ignorance is not bliss, it is a deception of the truth. Being ignorant of reality is no way to go through life as Clint Eastwood might say. Gotta love his famous movie quotes.



I now have had my ZROCK3 playing on endless loop since the day I received it. I guess that would be going on three weeks now.  As I told you, the first time I heard it "fresh" out of the box, I became worried that I was going to be very disappointed based upon that initial experience.  

I would estimate that I have well over 400 hours accumulated on it now which qualifies it as being prime for listening.


to be continued.....

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/21/25 at 01:50:33



It is at a point now which it is quite fair to evaluate it's performance and get a true perspective of it's actual worth.  As I mentioned before, I built a bypass switch box to take the ZROCK3 out of the signal chain during this break-in process, and also to switch it out when I don't want to use it for one reason or another. The switch allows me to perform instant A/B comparisons which really are not necessary. Once you hear the difference with standard CD's using the ZROCK3, it doesn't take any switching back and forth to hear the dramatic difference. I would say that 99 out of 100 times when using standard CD titles, you will instantly know the difference and finally hear what has been missing all along.

Now with real HQ audiophile master recordings that were created properly with the highest degree of quality mastering available, this device is not needed, and won't be that noticeable. For those recordings, I prefer to switch the device out of the signal path for a "less is better" approach.


If you ever want to truly experience a real WOW factor in audio, then just listen to a new unit with zero time on it, then go forward and listen to it again after it is well seasoned. You are about to have an epiphany which unlocks a new door in your world of reality. I know, it sounds a bit incredulous reading this, but you will just have to find out for yourself. Then perhaps you might understand what I am telling you to be fact. If you do have a ZROCK3 in your system and you don't get the same results which I am getting, then perhaps you might re-evaluate the remaining system, and particularly, the state of your acoustic setting. I guarantee you that the ZROCK3 is definitely not the weak point.

Outside of the superior designs of Decware amplifiers, this is the only audio device other than the C9, which have actually brought me to this level of appreciation. That is a very small collection of "WOW" factors accumulated in the audio discovery process evolving over five decades. Nothing else out there even remotely captures my respect as these do. Those guys who base everything upon measurements will be happy with the latest and greatest audio offering recommended by whoever is paid to promote the "best" according to the newest audio rags. The rest of us will understand the reality of the audio truth and never look back.


Oh, and if I do say so myself at the sake of modesty, I do believe that my latest DAC design has played a major role in achieving this level of sound quality. I'm pretty sure that without it, the results would be very different. I am extremely satisfied with this latest achievement, it really is special.

I am getting so close to acquiring the "Holy Grail" in audio reproduction. Still have a ways to go, but I see light at the end of the tunnel shining bright in my path. This is the best it has ever been for me.


Now, to give you a perspective as to what I have planned in the near future with pending projects, I will just start with the very next one which I am ordering parts for tomorrow.



My next project involves finally building a professional grade bass extension system which is in two separate enclosures, one for each channel, driven directly from the ToriiMK3 amplifier via a custom attenuation control using a high quality 100k ALPS Stereo Potentiometer. Each enclosure will have a low pass filter set to 80 Hz and below for a smooth transition  with the full range W8_1808 driver which are in the main enclosures. These are not typical subwoofers. They are more like separate stereo cabinets for each channel having the woofers separated from the main speakers.


I am using EMINENCE 15 inch drivers which are 98.9dB efficient. These will play louder than the mains which are only 93 dB efficient. It is required to have a bass output control to dial in a proper match of volume in order to balance things out in the low end. There will be no issues concerning speed with these drivers, especially when a sealed cabinet tuned for maximum performance is used.

Sealed enclosures provide the highest degree of accuracy and smooth frequency response. This allows for ultra clean fast bass that becomes relatively seamless with the main drivers. This is much easier to accomplish with all drivers being driven from the same amplifier instead of some substandard plate amp which pretty much renders the whole project as pointless.

Bass is critical to me as I judge the musical experience by the perceived quality of the bass content. I want drums to sound real and in full form of an actual experience as close as possible. I need to discern each and every bass note without being buried in the music, and without sounding muddy or slow. If I can't hear the clean distinction between the chords and transitions, then the bass simply sucks and doesn't cut it. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, the system has failed to impress me.

Most importantly, it is all about the tactile feel of the music for me. If I can't feel the vibrant textures of the lower frequencies, then the system has failed for me. For the complete musical experience, this factor is mandatory in my setting.

Imagine going to see the fireworks without any physical presence of the explosions. That would be a rather dull experience for me as the point of the celebration is to reenact the presence of a battlefield. The powerful effect of cannon fire and artillery is a crucial aspect of that reenactment for an accurate experience. I love the feel of sonic booms as they ripple through the sky.

Imagine top fuel dragsters at full throttle off the ready line during launch. If those were electric powered, most of the excitement would vanish with mere silence and a puff of air. The experience just would fail to create excitement unlike a nitro-methane burning supercharged engine would create with sheer intensity.  That experience would fail to be real for me. It just is not the same.

Without lightning, there is no thunder. Without thunder, there is merely a streak of light. Just doesn't provide the complete experience one would expect in reality.

I have had a temporary set up using a push-pull arrangement within a stereo arrangement inside one single enclosure. This houses twin 12 inch drivers set to provide bass augmentation between 40 Hz and 125 Hz. For best results, the low pass point should never exceed 80 Hz for proper integration with the mains. The W8-1808 drivers are strong down to 40 Hz anyway, so no need to go beyond 80 Hz which wouldn't sound natural anyway to do so.

This setup provides a nice deep bass extension, but it is not accurate enough for a smooth transition with the mains. It is time to upgrade and build a superior design which will perform as expected and satisfy my needs. This upgrade will provide the bass response that I desire with seamless transition. Perhaps I can levitate small creatures with the impact of double bass drums. That would be interesting to see.  Just joking, I don't have any small creatures to try it with.

The main benefit for having separate bass enclosures is due to placement within the room for maximum bass response.

If you know anything about room acoustics and the nature of room modes, or standing waves and how they affect bass perception within the room, then you understand exactly why it is necessary for me to take this approach.  What is best for main speaker positioning ends up being right in a cancellation zone created by the standing waves which cancels out the bass response. To overcome this, we must position the bass drivers within optimal points in the room where they produce the best bass output. With this arrangement, we achieve a well balanced sound across the entire frequency spectrum with minimal cancellations which otherwise degrade the music.

The solution for optimal bass cabinets are factored by the driver itself  and what frequency you want them to produce at F3. * F3 indicates the frequency where the driver output falls 3 dB below peak response. This point represents the actual low frequency extent of output before cutoff. In my case, I desire a F3 of 25 Hz.  This of course is going to take a large cabinet with significant volume.


To find the optimal volume of displacement in which to achieve my goal, this is the design that is required to get me there with a sealed enclosure. Again, sealed enclosures provide clean tight bass with high accuracy.

This is the procedure for designing the set I am going to build.

First, the drivers MUST be accurately measured. I use the latest version of DATS for this.

Note: in order to create an enclosure with a "golden ratio" which is described as a Qtc of 0.707 (critical damping), I want to maintain a set of dimensions which get as close to that as possible.

The parameters of my EMINENCE DG10-15 drivers show a Vas of 16.4 cu ft. which equals 464.4 liters. These drivers measure at a Qts of 0.38 which make them ideal for a sealed cabinet.


0.7/0.38 = 1.84    

1.84 squared = 3.39 minus 1 = 2.39

464.4  divided by 2.39 = 194.3 liters.

This equates to 6.86 cu ft.


Using .75 inch MDF, the external measurements which conform to the box layout I desire is 36" W x 28" H x 16.35" D
which has a displacement volume of 6.86 cu ft to meet my design goal.  I am going to double up the face at a total of 1.5 inch thick material to stiffen it up along with proper bracing inside.  For optimal performance, the interior should be lined with approximately 1 to 1.5 pounds per cubic ft of acoustic fill. I want approximately 4.5 pounds of acoustic fill for this enclosure.  It may end up requiring less fill for optimal sound. This is determined by trial and error.

Here is the design layout for this build.


I WILL HAVE TO UPLOAD THIS IMAGE AT ANOTHER TIME. THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH THE THIRD PARTY PROVIDER RIGHT NOW.





I will be starting this build very soon.


8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/21/25 at 02:08:28


Here is the image of my new bass system design.






BTW: CORRECTION TO BE NOTED.

I STATED THAT THE DRIVER WAS A CELESTION. THAT IS INCORRECT!

The actual driver I am using is an Eminence DG10-15 for this build.

Not sure why I said it was a Celestion, sorry about that mix up.


[smiley=icqlite14.png]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/21/25 at 03:47:53

For the task of continuous play in loop mode in which to quickly accelerate the burn in time required for my new ZROCK3 to start sounding it's best, I searched E-bay for a cheap CD player to accomplish this. This way, I am not putting excessive and unnecessary wear on my good Transport.


So knowing that The Tascam models are in abundance, and that some are sold for parts due to minor issues for a very low price, I searched for this model as there are plenty of the Cd-200i versions which connect to an Apple device.


I figuired that even if it is not playable, the parts inside would become good spares for future repairs on the Tascam units I have now.


Most of these sellers sell the unit cheap, then try to squeeze a markup in the shipping cost to get the price they really want.  Some of these people are on serious drugs for what they have the nerve to charge on something that only has an asking price of maybe $50.00 for the unit. Anyone that would pay $100+ dollars to ship an old used component in questionable condition should have their head examined. These players can be ground shipped for an average cost of $15 to $20 in the USA in most cases. The funny thing about this is that many of these are shipped with poor packaging that jeopardizes the condition of the unit once received. If I pay anywhere near that ridiculous price, it better be double boxed inside of a wooden crate and wrapped tightly with bubble wrap and foam peanuts all around it. You know that isn't going to happen.

So expecting to find this very type of shipping charge, I proceeded to look around anyway. After a quick search, a unit of interest came up immediately. This was a 2009 model Tascam CD-200i which was being sold for parts only. The seller claimed that the drawer would not open but it powered on.  Being that I am very mechanically inclined with a fair knowledge of electronic repair, I thought this was worth a shot since he only wanted $20.00 for the unit and I only had to pay $12.00 to have it shipped from Pittsburg, PA.  This was from an audio visual business in Pittsburg.

I had the unit the next day and it was packed better than most units come from the factory. I was very impressed by that.

So while having a quick lunch break, I immediately removed the cover to examine the problem. I removed the transport drive to examine the mechanics of the door lock and release system. I manually unlocked the draw in which it automatically extended by itself for disc loading.  I simply repeated this manually a few times as I could find nothing out of place within the drive system.  So, to make the story short, after 15 minutes, I checked the menu to see what was done in the memory.  Someone had set the system to play songs at random. Don't know why this creates a problem, but I simply reset the memory and set the feature to regular play mode.

Wouldn't you know it, before I even finished my lunch, I had this player working flawlessly without a hitch. Everything checked out as if it was a new player. It took the disc  and read the TOC instantly without fail. I also placed a CDR into the drive and that too worked perfectly. THIS UNIT HAD ZERO ISSUES! It is a fully functioning player that looks very good cosmetically and plays perfectly as if it had very little playing time on it.

That was the best twenty bucks I ever spent, period!

So, I now have another $500.00 transport which I practically acquired for free. This player has the high end TEAC transport which is highly acclaimed for low jitter and extreme stability. That is why I want it.

I now have another player in which to use as a slave drive for long burn in periods of new components. I just put it through the ultimate test by making it run non-stop for almost three weeks. This player is just as good as the new one I have in the primary system. It has run flawlessly using CD-R disks this entire time without fail.

You know what, I think I got a great deal on a great player. How often does that happen anyway!

So, that was a very good day.  Just like the energizer bunny, it just keeps going and going and going...........


Here are a few images of that great find.
















Needless to say, I greatly benefited from this purchase. Sometimes you get really lucky!


8-)

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by mrchipster on 05/23/25 at 03:12:40
Hey Paul,

After some significant amount of travel, being away from home, and getting some big projects completed here before the summer heat of southwest Florida arrives, I finally had some time to catch up on the happenings here on the forum.

It looks like you've been pretty busy with your projects, and very successful I might add. Congratulations! The DAC looks like it has come around very nicely. It sure was quite a lot of work to get the caps just right. As usual, the build quality looks to be top tier. I'm glad the tube output stage is contributing to your audio experience. I find the tube analog output stage in my DAC to be indispensable as well. So much to be said for a well-designed DAC in my opinion. (and I think you nailed yours!)

I'm glad your new Zrock3 has come into its own. I'm surprised it took quite a bit of burn in time since my Zrock2 sounded really good from the get-go. It did get better with time, but I was pretty satisfied with it early on. I guess each system can vary wildly. The Z3 is definitely different than the Z2 especially with the toroidal transformer, how it separates gain from the EQ and the elimination of the bypass switch. Surely a different beast but both delivering great sound.  

Good luck with all your future projects.

BTW, I was able to get back in the groove and have been listening to your CD's as well as doing some significant streaming, with and without the Carver C-9 in play. Thanks again for those disks. The quality of the LPCD's is exceptional.
I've got to head up to New England for a wedding this weekend and I'm getting company for the week right after that but keep your eyes peeled for a new thread on my opinion/feedback of the Carver C-9 and other musings.

Keep your contributions to everything audio coming.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/25 at 03:00:23


Hey Marc, long time no post. Glad to hear from you.

It would seem that you have been really busy these days. When you get back home, take it easy for awhile and listen to some of that music.

I too have my share of household projects which never really end. Once you get one thing done, two more problems arise.

Sometime this year, I need to replace all shocks and front coil springs in my 4 x 4. I also need to replace the brakes all the way around as well.  Eventually, I plan to disassemble the entire body from the frame and perform a full restoration. The truck is very low mileage, and the mechanics are solid. Being a northern truck in the rust belt, corrosion is a constant factor which rapidly destroys our vehicles in just a few years of exposure if we don't keep the road salt cleaned from the undercarriage. I really wish they would ban road salt. Down south, and in Arizona, and southern California, this is not an issue.

While I'm at it, maybe I will swap out the engine for a Shelby supercharged 1200 HP upgrade!  

:D

No, that is NOT going to happen.  Maybe when I was thirty years old I would have done something crazy like that, but I'm just a bit past that at my age now.

I am getting tired of doing mechanical work on vehicles, so I will just stick to the necessary repairs and be done with it for now. I am really glad to not work in aviation any longer.  That was a tough career which took a lot out of me.

I don't mind staying at home and spending time building projects which I never had time for when working 70+ hours a week. It was constant stress and burn out. Finally, I get to do some of the things that other people enjoy.

Thanks for the compliment regarding the DAC project. I feel pretty good about the result.  You and I have very similar audio systems. I think you have a very good idea as to what my DAC sounds like. There is no doubt in my mind about your custom built Cambridge DAC.  Sounds like that was an all out project at full tilt! It would be interesting to compare notes on these.

As for the new ZROCK3, it is a funny thing how it can go from sounding so bad, to completely perfect after a short period of burn-in.  I would have to surmise that this is due to the Cornell Dublier film and foil capacitors as they go through the process of seating in and stabilizing. Not sure what your model has installed, but mine has all the mods plus tube regulation. That means a more complex circuit which needs to settle in before it starts performing as it should.

Who knows, audio can have a few quirks along the pipeline. My first ToriiMKII amp sounded great right from the get go. My newer ToriiMKIII did not. Some people stated that the ToriiMKII sounded bad until it burned in with extensive hours. When I said that mine sounded good right out of the box, they questioned whether this could be possible. So you know, it's audio. Go with the flow.


As for the projects, I have many in the cue.

And YES, as for your new thread, that is going to be an interesting one. I do hope that you start that soon. I shall be reading it.  Glad you liked the recordings and noticed the quality of the LPCD versions especially. I thought that you might. I would like to see you continue with the new thread for quite some time. It just may enlighten some people about the difference in music quality and what is possible.


I have a few new recordings that I recently mastered in my software studio program. I think you would find interest in hearing a few of them. It will amaze you when you compare the original studio disc to the remastered version which I decompress and repair with proper EQ.  Perhaps I will send you a few discs in the near future to evaluate for your thread.

As for the C9, that is a critical part of the evaluations in A/B fashion. I have a good idea as to how you will perceive the differences, and they will be substantial.


Okay, get back home safely and give yourself a break.

Talk later.


[smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by Donnie on 05/25/25 at 03:52:21
Red Pill,

I was just wondering how your subwoofer project was going?

I've built a few subwoofers like what your design with about a 50/50% success rate.

I've even tried powering them with a Torii III, well that was a 0% success rate.  I think that you will find that a cheap 100 watt  sub amp will make them sound so much better. The Torii just doesn't have the control over woofers that I believe you will need.

I've also had great luck with the Decware Deathbox design. I even scaled one up for a 15" woofer. Very nicely controlled bass, at least in my experience.  I'm experimenting with a scaled down to a 8" version right now.  Working well.

Oh another personal question, where did you get your A&P training, I know the military to begin with but where did you go for your commercial license.   I only ask because several good friends of mine were Professors teaching for different schools and I've learned that it is a small world.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 05/25/25 at 05:43:09
Hey Donnie,



I am fairly confident that what I am designing has a good chance of working, but we all know how things can turn out.

Because I am installing a dedicated control box with a stereo ALPS 100k potentiometer to control the bass output gain from the amp, this should provide the balance that I need. I guess I will find out when the time comes. I am building low pass passive filters for each enclosure set at 80 Hz cutoff.

Like I said, these are not typical subwoofer designs. Just think of them as having the woofer detached from the main speakers, powered directly from the amplifier with independent filters. Without the ALPS control box, it would not be possible.

I built my own WO32 (I think that was the name of it) back around 2003 and it worked pretty well with a plate amp, but not quite what I want in my system. I also built the DBK212 with the sliding tuning section for my vehicle back then. I liked that design very much. That was quite some time ago. I still have a new set of those ten inch woofers in the garage that never got used from Parts Express. I really need to sell some drivers and other things to get rid of them.

The system I am currently using actually works very well running directly from the ToriiMK3 posts as well as the mains. It makes a huge difference as to what you have the ohm switch placed for proper bass output. In the rearward position, it is really good. The problem I have with my push-pull design is that it is too slow for the main drivers. It is also less efficient.

I have not started the build yet. I am still getting my shop organized from the winter mess when I had it full of building materials to install a new roof on my house. Between that and mounds of new insulation, it became a shop I couldn't use anymore. So it might be a couple of weeks before I can get my table saw and router ready for action.  I have a new window that needs to be installed in the house plus some other work that takes a priority.

I will surely provide details on this thread as the build begins. If it doesn't work out to my expectations, then yes, there are alternative measures. I am one that remains dedicated to the outcome. If it can be done, I will find the way.

As for my license. They have a community college here just beside the aviation complex. Believe it or not, they closed it down after Covid hit. It is no longer open.  Since most of my career was military, and then military contracting as a civilian, I was never required to have a commercial license since I worked on government projects. That is only required for civilian aircraft under the FAA.  

They paid for my license prep at this location. It was simply a matter of taking the exams and that was that. I retired soon after so I didn't actually need the license. If you are a contractor, there are ways around the license to hold the position. You just have to get a licensed tech to sign off the work. I spent more winter nights freezing my rear end off on that flight-line than I care to remember. It always made me appreciate the warm hanger when the work was inside. During the summer, working outside was great.  Most of my experience was with military aircraft. That includes everything from Avionics, to structure work. I can still feel the vibration of that rivet gun now....lol

:D

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/26/25 at 20:47:58

Here it is, already a month later. Time really fly's when you are busy!


So many things have occurred since the last post here. I have made many upgrades to the system with substantial gained improvement.

I will be going over each of these upgrades individually in future posts.

The first major upgrade deals with the interconnects and the bypass switch-box I custom fabricated for my Zrock3. This allows me to completely bypass the signal from the DAC directly out to the amplifier when I don't need to use the Zrock3. Switched to "engage" mode, the signal is routed through the Zrock3 and then out to the amplifier when I want it in the signal path. This gives me absolute control of the signal path while maintaining optimal signal integrity.


As seen here in the images, all interconnects have been upgraded to solid annealed copper core wire, layered with 7N high purity silver for the ultimate signal transfer. The transparency and neutrality of these cables are as good as ANY cable can achieve. The detail and realism which are conveyed with the silver/copper metallurgy is absolutely stunning with crystal clear definition. This is a very significant upgrade over the Mogami cables if you have the system AND room acoustics on a level which let them reveal their true capabilities. That I certainly have achieved.

The switch-box is equipped with machined solid copper RCA receptacles designed by Manley Labs. The internal wiring is 7N solid core silver with a Teflon jacket. Full grounding path insures total elimination of hum or noise in the signal path. It is stone quiet.






Here are the images of the switch-box and silver interconnects. All RCA plugs are high quality German Nuetrik PRO-FI with retractable high tension collars.










































Coming up are details about the final bypass capacitor upgrades installed into the DAC tube stage.

Every time I think there is absolutely NO possibility of an improvement which makes much of a difference, I prove myself wrong with substantial gain just about every time. It is to the point now where returns on investment are very narrow, but still noticeable, and quite beneficial to the overall sound of the system. I am discovering just how great my room acoustics really are now that the system is finally catching up to what it delivers in the music. All of that work and investment has really paid off.

Room acoustics are the hub of the music wheel. Without proper acoustics, the audio wheel barely functions as it was designed to do.

I have mastered something very special here in this total package. You can only understand this once you have experienced it.

And I am not finished yet!


More to come.



[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/29/25 at 23:59:24

Continuing forward:



First, a quick look at a trial before I moved on to the current modification in place now.

Before I removed the Cornell Dublier paper in oil capacitors for the new upgrade, I wanted to simply add some Mial polystyrene 0.0022uf capacitors for bypassing purposes. I listened to this set up for about 10 days before the changeover. They did sound very nice, yet a bit more clinical with the Mial bypass caps. I will tell you this, once the NOS Cornell Dublier caps are well seasoned, they sound fabulous in solo mode without bypass caps. The difference was very noticeable with the Mial caps added.




















This is what I plan as the "final" upgrade modification to the tube output stage of the dac. (time will tell)

I will be upgrading the power supply for the dac conversion stage at another time, experimenting with bypass caps in that section.

For now, the sound quality and presentation as the current dac implementation exhibits, is at a level which is light years ahead compared to the stock form when I received it. You would never know it was the same dac by comparison.


By way of continual play sequence in full disc music "looping" for two weeks, the updated dac now has another 300+ hours on it for maximum burn-in of the new bypass capacitors.

The mod performed: The focus was to replace the four main 0.22uf capacitors for the signal input stage on the tube stage coming from the dac conversion board. I wanted to try out the high end MKP caps from Pan Ocean, bypassing them with high quality Ero KT1801 capacitors which are polyester Film/Foil construction, in the 0.0022uf range.

I also implement Mial polystyrene capacitors here for bypassing in the same range of 0.0022uf.

Polystyrene capacitors exhibit high stability, and low dielectric absorption characteristics, therefore minimizing loss of signal integrity.

Polystyrene capacitors are also known for having a smooth natural sound quality, with ultra revealing detail which comes across as neutral on the warm side. A key benefit of this capacitor type is that of a wide holographic image.  All of these traits make for the perfect bypass capacitor used in this upgrade.

Both Mial and Ero capacitors share the same quality traits, being excellent choices for this purpose.

What you see in the following images is that of the current modification with the four Pan Ocean MKP 0.22uf caps installed. These replaced the N.O.S.  Cornell Dublier paper in oil capacitors, which sounded beautiful in solo form for this purpose.  I wanted to experiment with the modern MKP caps, especially since they are much smaller, fitting the form factor better in this area.

These four MKP caps are bypassed with an Ero KT1801, 0.0022uf capacitor on the top side of the board as close as possible to the solder trace. It is important to always place them into the signal path as short and direct as possible for optimal results.

Moving to the bottom side of the tube stage board, it is time to modify each electrolytic power supply capacitor with bypassing enhancement. Again, for this purpose I used the same Ero KT 1801, and Mial polystyrene capacitors in the 0.0022uf range.


You may ask what the purpose of this bypass modification is for, and what it actually does for the sound quality of the music?

Here is the answer in a nut shell:

The purpose of bypassing a main capacitor with a much smaller value such as the .0022uf range that I used, is to "cleanse" the high frequency range in order to open up, and reveal a much more coherent conveyance of fine detail within an enhanced transparency of the music signal. This is similar to the benefits a signal would achieve through power supply filtering. The result being that you now hear deeper into the high frequency range, with intricate nuances in clear detail and focus, that which was masked before the bypass mod.

With just the 0.22uf MKP capacitor in place and no bypass upgrade, this alone tends to have increased impedance factors within the higher frequency spectrum, this which creates a reduced range resulting in high frequency roll-off.

To the contrary, the much smaller values exhibit much lower impedance factors at the higher frequencies, which allow the higher frequencies to pass through the signal with greater efficiency and transparency.

By combining the larger .22uf base capacitor in parallel with a much smaller 0.0022uf bypass capacitor, the higher frequencies are revealed where they were masked before. The end result is that of an increased bandwidth of the audio signal.

Now, the larger capacitor is contributing to the lower frequency region where it provides substantial influence upon the bass output, while the smaller bypass capacitor effectively extends the perceived output of the higher registers. They work together in perfect harmony.

That should be clear enough as to why it is so beneficial to bypass larger capacitors, especially when they are the electrolytic type.

You most definitely will hear the difference in a high fidelity sound system using top shelf components.




I also recently modified my speaker cables once again to make them shorter due to closer amp position to the speakers, and to increase their effective size. This was accomplished by cutting the 17 foot long cables in half, then doubling those set of halves together for each terminal lead. The cables are now half the length as before, but double in conductor size.

The conductors are constructed from pure copper foil with wax coating. The donor for the copper ribbon was that of a copper/wax inductor. When this inductor is unrolled to full length, it offers enough material to create one 17 foot speaker cable as a single ribbon. The actual length is determined by the size of the inductor. I had about a half dozen of these high quality inductors collecting dust, so they made the ideal material for my new speaker cables. Ribbon cables are far superior to that of stranded wire conductors, one factor being that of the "skin effect".

I also formulated the correct Zobel network configuration which is calculated perfectly for use with my full range (non-crossover) Tang Band W8-1808 drivers in my custom Tapered Quarter Wave enclosures with passive radiator bass control.

These drivers require a Zobel network consisting of 8.5 ohms resistance connected in parallel with a .68 uf capacitor.



The problem:


The full range driver connected directly to the amplifiers outputs is affected by a rise in inductance. The ill effect of this cause and effect results into an impedance increase at higher frequencies. This can create instability within the speakers relationship with the amplifier in some cases. This can definitely be a factor with tube amps, especially those with high output impedance.


The solution:


A Zobel network is nothing more than a resistor and a capacitor placed in parallel across the driver terminals. The corrective function of this application leads to counter the rising impedance factor. This leads to a more stable load for the amplifier for an improved level of output driving the speakers.

This is accomplished by offering a consistent damping factor which will reduce distortion in the higher frequencies where the rising impedance factor is out of control. The benefit gained results in improved accuracy, especially within the higher registers of the treble spectrum.

The role of the capacitor is that it has low impedance at higher frequencies which allow current to bypass the voice coil inductance. The result is the elimination of the inductive impedance increase.

This has the potential of hearing a clearer, more pronounced treble, with more detail revealed within the music.







First, here are images of the speaker cable mods, along with the Zobel networks inserted between the speaker terminals. There are short jumper cables going straight to the drivers from there. There is nothing else in the signal path.






















These are the connectors used for the cables. These are pure solid machined copper with a gold layer.






This is the copper foil inductor coil used to make the speaker cable conductors which are flat ribbon design. It requires two of these inductors to make a complete 8 foot set of cables when doubled.





A double set of flat conductors for each signal cable encased with wax paper and electrical tape on one side for a protective barrier.













Next I will show you images of the current upgrades I discussed above. This brings the project up to the current state of progress.

Title: Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Post by red pill sanctuary on 06/30/25 at 00:49:49


Here are the latest images of my current modification progress showing the DAC tube stage completely bypassed, including the power supply. This is with the new Pan Ocean MKP film and foil caps in place of the Cornell Dublier paper in oil caps.




































































And here are a few images of my power tube upgrade to Tung-Sol EL34's courtesy of Will and his contribution to my project.

There is a saying: If there is a Will, there is a way!

Thanks Will.

I absolutely love them!


;)

















Alright, that wraps things up for now.


I am heading up to the audio room now for some very enjoyable listening!


Say tuned, there is more to come.



[smiley=tunes57.gif]

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