Hey Raven,
From your description, those sound like they could well be Siemens, a very "good" tube for sure, doing tube things very well....quiet, open, extended, articulate, integrated fine detail….
I hear what you are saying comparing them to 6N23P...also a nice, relatively accurate, and well balanced tube type that may or may not fully excite, but does what is does quite well.
Part of what got me going on DAC quality perhaps making tube balance easier was my memory of struggles with room and other balancing acts not quite allowing the soundstage and "magic" from the music you were craving. But now it sounds closer to Steve's old room you use as a reference, with excellent 3-D soundstage.... hearing the birds wake up…
Though the PCC88s were not fully seductive themselves, it sounds like the whole was quite ”magical," with beautifully engaging musical experiences. The question becomes, how much does this "less obviously engaging” tube (than the Telefunken ECC88s) contribute to the "magic" you now have.
In general, 7DJ8/PCC88s do tend to a little less signal density than 6922/E88CCs types, increasing openness, fine detail, textured articulation, spaciousness...with good extension. I think these are things that indicate quality tubes, and that typically contribute to a better soundstage experience...and can be "great" as long as they have all the other “right stuff” in a given setting. By the way, these sound like things Huron has done...like Ted put a really good tube in the DSD!
I think fine detail is critical to “feather edges” and reveal nuance in music, but as much, without open/quiet space, the very fine info and micro speed can’t show up…and if the tube can't produce the really nice micro info and speed, it is often not doing other things as well either. Great 6922 types can do this, but they usually cost a lot. And depending on everything else, the signal density can be comparatively strong enough to fill the space between players with instrument sound and more dense ambient information, things that can mask finer detail and spaciousness, in combination, potentially "smearing" the soundstage some. Generally, 6DJ8 and 7DJ8 are enough less dense and spacious, and detailed enough, to promote soundstage spaciousness and sense of saturation. And if a good tube, the clearer and more articulate they are, the more the soundstage qualities tend to come out.
Then, as we have all found, does it fit in the elusive system/room balance, giving excellent revealing qualities
and musical qualities? Always the trick, and a least a little different for everyone, and for every system/room. This is why you will find that I don’t tend to flat-out recommend tubes. With so many system/room variables, a great tube here could be not-so-good there.
The ECC88 Telefunkens seemed to give you this though, as do the recent PCC88s in other ways, a good start. The question with the Telefunken: in balanced with everything else, could they make you forget the system and room like recently…would they let you get fully absorbed by the musical experience?
I think German tubes tend to be really good at tube things...clarity, dynamics, accuracy, extension, fine detail, power…sometimes too “good” for me, but no doubt, “really good” quality tubes. Then there are "flavors," and that Telefunken quality you describe from your ECC88s is enough to the liking of enough people, they are valuable. At least from the Telefunken 6922/E88CCs I have, I like these extraordinary qualities, amazed by the outrageous fine detail and textures, space, extension, and all with musicality, but I tend to like others as well or better. I know what you mean though about that "magical" quality you can get. Amazing everything...top to bottom, and with great space and textures. On the other hand, the real cryo'd Telefunken PCC88s I have are really, really good, but so "well done" that in some ways they can feel a little "too good"...with near perfect technical qualities, they can feel like they are missing a little character to me...
So where can you get those extraordinary qualities inexpensively? I got into PCC88s for this reason. They tend to be really good for the price, though with any tube type, some are better than others, and most often, I think you have to be lucky for a "good one" to fit just right without adjusting other things.
Finally the crap shoot you have been in comes up…Try this one, or that…and if it works, try to make it better with adjustments, and weigh the compromises if they still exist.
This is part of why I like the Torii. With five tube types, especially the rectifiers and voltage regulators are really good for "tuning in" an “almost-there” input or output tube.
Quote:Maybe if I take some really good photos of my magical pair, and this current pair, you can tell me what they are and help point me in the right direction to procuring some more magic??
I can definitely try. I have just been rolling various ECC88 and PCC88s and like a lot of them with my current setup, but some more than others for sure. An A-frame Phillips PCC88, I am thinking a later and less expensive one, sounds ridiculously good just now. It is less outwardly defined and articulate than the last few pair of Mullard ECC88s, but still quite articulate with more space and textures making it just sound like really good music.
Post some pics if you like, or email some...