Thoughts have been rolling around in my mind for weeks regarding how to explain to fellow forum members and to Steve that my new fully modded ZROCK2 with a Cryotone 12AU7 didn’t improve the sound quality of my system.  

After waiting 14 months and 10 days, my ZROCK2 was delivered today.  It was installed 2 hours ago.  Here’s my explanation.

I am completely blown away with what the ZR2 has done for my system!  In a million years, and without having ever auditioned a ZR2, I would never have believed that this level of improvement could be had.  For now, I’ll just say this, if you are wondering whether or not to order a ZROCK2, do it today—do it this very minute! In the event that you don’t want it, for whatever crazy reason, you can immediately sell it for what you paid for it, or more likely, at a significant profit!

Agreed, the ZR2 is an important tuning tool!

In my current system, its net effect is closer to fine tuning bass impact, more of a rounding mechanism that fills out the lower-mid frequencies a bit more that takes an already very full sound to near perfection in my small room.

In the now happily sold amp-speaker combo of a Taboo MK 4-25th & Omega Jr. XRS alnico spkrs, it was absolutely critical….the difference was literally night and day. This combo without the ZR2-25th was comparatively anemic and fairly ordinary….with the ZR2 it was very necessarily fuller and better rounded. In fact I learned to hate this comparatively dull & anemic amp-speaker combo without the ZR2, and with it the system was mostly….acceptable, which was a EEEUGE difference.

So 3 cheers for the ZR2!  

Brad

The ZROCK was a revelation to me at Decfest. I truly didn’t get it…until I experienced it in person.  And then I was kicking myself for not ordering it earlier.

However, now that I have changed my order from Rachael to Sarah, I’m not sure it will add further benefit since it’s already part of Sarah’s design spec.

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Yes. I think ZROCK2 inspired gain stage would be a fair characterization.

No fear if you want to add or subtract from the artist/producer intentions. I still prefer a system that adds nothing to the material. The dial and switches on the Zrock2 can lead to confusion that ultimately distracts when playing familiar material...kicks the listener right out of zen. Total absorbtion of the music is not obtained instantly as turning on a swich but gradually over time as the track plays.

John

If the room is right and components(source player, amp, speakers)in tune a Zrock2 will seldom be needed.

Being all modified well beyond A-mods, mine are not straight up representations of Decware direct from Decware. But the DNA is the same and I have struggled to keep the basic balances from Steve's choices, while improving all levels of speed and translucent transparency and resolution with more sonic completeness from the right parts and wires that musically put as little in the way of the music as possible.

Another primary goal for me has been making all music as good or better than the recording. In other words, working on making all of them with OK "bones" sound more like real music from a perspective of great instruments in great rooms. And since many recordings do not sound real on super resolving systems that are well balanced, just because they were not brilliant recordings or mixes, if we can improve on that in "real" sounding ways, to me this is seeking a more pure representation of the music. And for my tastes, I do not want clearly enhanced sound in any area...if fact I find Steve's tastes really close in most ways, but generally a little forceful for me. So my ultimate "reference" is from a love of beautiful sound from beautiful instruments and players in great rooms. And this, in my system, requires careful tuning with everything for resolution that is relatively un-truncated anywhere... ie. balanced, immediate, smooth, and for me very importantly, not limiting spatial or harmonic information across the spectrum... but also very importantly, relaxed... To me resolution, speed, and relaxed go together, indicating a lack of smearing... correct time, so more space, and more to the sound, if in balance, bringing out loads of nuance and making most all recordings more like real music. The best sonic reads I have found so far for getting the most from the recording are harmonic complexity in very clear space, and with natural immediacy and balanced speed... each, across the spectrum... and not surprisingly, the most difficult parts of the sound to get.

So I don't try for sound exactly like I imagine the recording sounded in its particular studio environment... yet another area where, beyond "that sound" being based on mix and mastering gear/room quality and skills, also, recording and mixing rooms and systems all sound different based on assumptions of accuracy, and therefore the studio developer's preferences... Likely many studios having some common threads, and perhaps closer in more cost no object studios, but still each having a different feel and sound, recordings they produce have different sound. And let's not forget... this is all in time, room tech and gear changes all the time... so no standards there either, not to mention great or not so great "re-mastering."

At the same time, many of my recordings I love, even if recorded in good rooms, with good gear for the time, are not necessarily given the time they needed to get great either.... lots of music put out pretty fast for a quick turn around and lower production costs. Then even if we are willing to listen to bad or mediocre, or even "good " recordings in an assumed "pure" state, even many quite authentic sounding recordings to me are not at all great, sound stage so often not as well considered in a mix as I would prefer...

So I seek to make as many recordings as real sounding as I can, knowing from a cross section of "reference recordings" I like to use, most not great but pretty good recordings, together I can find a balanced spectral range, the many layers of speed, harmonic complexity, spacial information, etc. A safeguard in this for me, is actually from tuning my gear and room across recordings... the average of variabilities of decent recordings setting a more complete standard to balance by for a system and room.

I learn more and more about these critical musical balances while tuning gear also. Like if some component makes the rest excitingly fast and more resolved with a range of decent recordings, but is a compensation for the rest to do this....then I went a little too far with it, or not far enough with the rest. So each piece of gear matching the others is important to me... making more real the concept of solving weak links leading to more musical potential. . . If one component gets too "good" at something, the system can sound great, but is off to me similarly to when one component is a subtle drag on the rest.

So my gear work rotates based on learning from refining improvements in one, then seeking those refinements from new ways of hearing in the others, each doing it similarly, improving the whole in a balanced way. For example, after many years and hundreds of experiments with my Torii IV and CSP3, back on forth, each taught me about how to improve the other, so they grew more transparent, fast, and resolving together. Then at some point very minor changes came slowly for a year or more, and I was thinking they were pretty much "done." In the meantime I built a ZBIT with extra transparent and resolving wires and connectors, careful damping by sound, and built in cables from the DAC with tried and true geometry, damping, connectors, and wires that are the best cables I have heard for "reference sound," while eliminating one full set full of balanced connectors into the Zbit. I really liked it as a third component and continue to use it today, many years later. It relatively transparently gave me more tune-ability in concert with the CSP3 for gain tuning with the Torii. So it helped refine adjusting resolution, harmonic complexity, weight, density, translucency and spacial openness to fit my room best, while also allowing fine tuning individual recordings to sound most balanced in these ways. Transparent gain tuning for room and individual recordings are very important tuning tools for my musical experience. And guess what, this "Zbit" also caused me to hear a little more into recordings, causing me to find new ways to improve the Torii and CSP3... bringing it all to another new level.

Then I got  Zrock2 with only the tube mod, guessing I would likely need to modify it but not sure based on many great reviews from users. And it was exciting, so tastefully done in my highly tuned setup, especially if I used it set just past unity gain, just bringing out its particular Decware sonic enhancements from well implemented tubes, caps, etc...  smoothing and harmonically richening the system sound a bit with its particular Decware signature. To me, at this gain level, it is very much Steve's Decware in sonic preferences.

In my system using the "bass control" much was not useful, except in very light doses for some recordings, indicating another musical and transparent way to fine-tune recordings to tastes. But all the rest of my system was super tuned, and this component, after the initial excitement passed, was not as complete or balanced with speed and harmonics/space in particular compared to the rest. And not surprisingly, to match the rest, mostly Decware in DNA, this too needed similar treatment....input connectors to output connectors, adjusting most parts and wires to better meet my latest standards of resolution, harmonic complexity, transparency, space, and speed.. and all of these, across the spectrum.

Working the ZRock with the fairly long experience I had from years of playing with Decware, my system stepped up again, causing me to hear deeper in, and showing some weaknesses in the Torii by comparison, pointing to refining it further....

Around and around it goes... each breakthrough leading to more. Now, after working on the Torii with only the ZBIT for many months, the system is amazing with just those two, and recently adding back in the super tuned ZRock2, it is not mind bending "better" to me with the ZRock2+, but really good, especially considering it does its beauty stuff with another gain adjustment, the additional fine-gain tuning making the whole system, and individual recordings better most of the time. And let's not forget that tubes and settings do make it many components in one...so more fine-tuning capability to whatever tastes and room.

So I "get" folks who love the ZRock2, with A-mods especially, and when it matches well with all the rest, whether fuller sound and bass supplementation is wanted or not. But I would also say that considering it "an EQ" is missing a lot of what it can offer, especially if we don't need or want much or any real EQ... the tuning within a narrowish unity range giving a little fuller richer bottom and body while also filling out the complexity and presence of the mids and highs... or the opposite if needed for recordings....  Not the same for system and recording tuning, but I would say in this gain area, it can be similar to a CSP3 or ZBIT for fine-gain tuning, but with a ZRock2 "flavor." That's how I interpret it here so far anyway.

Nice idea, but it won't fly with my wife. I'd rather have her than not so .  . . I've made the systems work as well as they can, and I have great sound in two systems with speakers (and one with headphones).

That sounds great, thanks. I know I'll get in trouble, so I'm not going to try it. I have twenty five years of experience getting the best I can out of what I have to work with and I'm very very happy with the sound. . . . If I ever win the lottery I'll have other options but til then I'm not tempting fate by trying other methods.

Doug….thanks for the reply on your connection to the music with the new ZROCK2 in the signal chain.  I have one on order since last year….so I am too looking forward to the experience once it arrives.  

I anticipate that with my ZSTAGE being used as a purist gain stage, combined with the 25th ZROCK2, I am going to be pleasantly surprised on how well the ZROCK2 works as a tuning tool.  

With the recent addition of my fully modified SE84C+ White amp, I am looking forward to hear how my system sounds compared to when I run it with my Torii MKIV 25th.  The only short term handicap that I have is that minus my ZSTAGE…the rest of my Decware gear has the Anniversay mods.  So I’m sure that sometime next year I’ll send the ZSTAGE in for that upgrade.  

Dom

Sounds great Doug. Your settings seem near unity gain, but it depends on the tube used I find. Some 12AU7s tend to be in this sort of range for me, but they vary some, the "bypass" switch on and off the only way to really tell just where unity is. It does sounds like you are past it a bit by what you hear. Getting this much system improvement after only a few days of burnin is really exciting. Once the tube, the transformer and caps and all burn in, I think you will be impressed further! Happy Days!

I do agree with how the Zrock adds flavor and should not be considered a garnish.

I would hope that a mastering engineer would be influenced by artist input.

John

A long time ago I had the experience of listening to a raw 1st cut of the Kiss Destroyer album.   The final released album was drastically different.  Point being that with all of the revisions that an album goes through, it is no doubt influenced by more than one person.  

What the ZROCK does to the sound is no way different in terms of altering the sound that wasn’t already done tenfold over in the studios.  

Dom

Bugermeester, Decware made references before that they are heading in that direction of doing easy builds in batches.

Lon, well Steve did write "masters". Totally get the remastered disconnections

John

Thanks Lon. I'll bet most young artist are happy with the final product. While others might become very frustrated 😞 of the vultures/sharks preying on the aspiring artist. The reason why some accomplished artist breakaway and produce on their own IMO.

I can't wait to dig into the Zrock2. First thing is the hook up wire inside has to go.

John

A device with no downside. Almost essential, it would seem.

In that case, why not build this superior circuit right into my extremely expensive UFO25s -- which I was sure would sound better than shit without it, and will take another year to deliver -- so I don't have to wait another TWO YEARS to verify the above claims?

Which I can't, and won't. I'm not effing immortal

Interesting thought, a built in ZRock.. probably have to be a different chassis as Lon pointed to though. And even though there is more stuff in a signal path with these boxes, with really good cables it works, and I like to have them separate for system flexibility.

As I recall, that fire trying to claim Steve put a ZRock in the Sarah, and therefore the Sarah was "corrupted" by EQ or something, was fanned by one or two folks focussed on holding onto their own stuck interpretation of what Steve said, while imposing a personal need for discord on others... A long time ago now, but when I read through that part of the Sarah discussion, I thought what Steve originally said was that he used part of the design discovered in the ZRock as part of the first stages of the Sarah... basically beginning the tube signal path more to his liking.... and not a ZRock, or all its tuning tools.

But what you folks heard from the Sarah, no matter how it was designed, tells the real tale right?... I figure if you loved the experience, it is a great amp for you...Happy days!

Will is right, a lot of discord happened here because someone got the idea the entire ZROCK2 was going to be inside the 300B when Steve said that the gain stage aspect, tailored to the point right before the EQ curves begin, was one of the two gain stages (I believe the 300B tube requires two gain stages before it) in the amp. And even when Steve explained it the disinformation continued, with an add on that it would be "misleading for audiophiles and unethical" to include an EQ in an amp that purists wouldn't like. (But there is no EQ stage, and those who study a Decware amp know what they are getting and why).

I have really only seen a few persons here that disliked the ZROCK2. One was disappointed that the bypass was not "completely transparent." At first I thought that was not true, but after some experimenting I realize there is a slight loss of transparency, very slight. Another says his system didn't need it, and the truth is all our systems and hearing and rooms are different and he's lucky if his doesn't need it at all. But in general I can imagine it being useful in almost any system. It's quite a product that has gone far beyond its original genesis as a device to improve the sound of lower fidelity streams!

Sorry, my suggestion that a ZROCK might fit in a UFO was entirely meant to be bilious and not serious.

A few more comments about my 26 day old ZR2……

Having used tube gear from Audio Research, Balanced Audio Technology, Cary Audio (4 power amps and 2 preamps), Decware (2 power amps, 1 preamp, and now the ZR2), New York Audio Labs, Vacuum Tube Logic, Eastern Electric, Aranov Audio, and maybe a few others that are not coming to mind, I think I can honestly say that the ZROCK2 is the most positively impactful of all.  My current Cary 300SEI is, by a big margin, my favorite amp of all time, but the ZR2 makes it, and the rest of the system, sound even better.  Prior to receiving the ZROCK2 I was 99% sure that I would be putting it up for sale within a few days, but it has turned out to be, as they say, a game changer.  If I have my way, the ZR2 will always be smack dab in the middle of my system.  

A couple of ZR2 performance areas that have impressed me the most are these………

1. Low bass and mid bass resolution has greatly improved.  The 8 woofers in my PAP Quintets are being driven by a LFD NCSE, which is an incredible amplifier, especially when it comes to reproducing bass frequencies, but the ZR2 has increased bass resolution even more.  Bass instruments sound more real than ever.  I really don’t see how this is possible, but it definitely is the case!

2. Mid and high frequency performance has greatly improved with the ZR2 in the system.  The most surprising part of this high frequency improvement is the way cymbals and other higher pitched percussion instruments now sound. They sound big, full, and real.  In every system I’ve ever had—and most of them across the past two decades have been rather nice—cymbals and other higher pitched instruments have always sounded more or less thin.  That is no longer true.  Cymbals now sound the way Zildjian, Sabian, and all the rest of the cymbal makers want their secret alloys to sound when struck.  How a bass booster accomplishes this, I have no idea, but it does.  The ZR2 is a true champion of mid and high frequency reproduction!

Not sure that I will post additional thoughts about my ZROCK2……we’ll see.  One thing is without doubt as I close; the ZROCK2 is a fantastic piece of audio gear!  It remains baffling to me how the lowest priced piece of gear in my system has raised the overall sound quality to the degree it has.  For $1,350, the ZR2, with all available standard modifications and upgrades, is a steal!  I higly recommend ordering one today!

What I’ve liked after the first couple of weeks is when I’m severely chilling, I can keep my CXN V2 in preamp mode and adjust volume remotely with the Roon app on my phone and enjoy hi-fidelity indistinguishable from running with the preamp bypassed.

Hello everyone,

I've really enjoyed reading all of your experiences here. I have a Sarah on order that will hopefully arrive by the end of 2025. I also have a Zen Ultra pre on order but am now reconsidering that one as I'm leaning away from a home theater setup toward keeping the 2 channel (or maybe 2.1).

So I'm wondering what, if I do switch that order, I would replace it with. And I'm looking at the Z Rock. Have any of you gotten a Sarah and paired with Z Rock? Thoughts?

Thanks so much. It's fun just to think about it as I anticipate the arrival in the hopefully not-too-distant future.

All good things,
Will

Thank you for you quick response, Lon. I've really enjoyed reading all of your comments.

This is very helpful, thank you. I think especially since I will be streaming music that the Z Rock could be just the ticket.

I'll be looking at other Decware products to replace the Zen Ultra in the order but the Z Rock is at the top of the list now.