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Not so frikin fast! (Read 1335 times)
Steve Deckert
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Not so frikin fast!
05/20/24 at 03:06:31
 





So I have recently come to the realization that we ALL need two tonearms set up on the table.  As you know I have been having cartridge wars on my table with two tone arms.  Trying to get each one set up so perfectly it will outshine the other.   This has been a fascinating journey so far but something has been happening that changed everything.

It is not uncommon to listen to a record with both tonearms, first one then the other because it is two different perspectives and it makes it twice as interesting.  Naturally you will choose the better sounding of the two unless it is a tie which it sometimes certainly is.

This is the tool I was using to perfect the setup of the tonearms to the 9th degree.  Pitting one against the other and listening.  The arm that has so much potential to rule or fail is the AudioCraft arm, which is ultra complicated.

I want to get both dialed in so tight that it becomes hard to pick between them, or perhaps one just dominates all the time.  

So when you are getting real about tonearm/cartridge pairings and setup, you realize there are quite a few different curves that favor different types of pressings and types of music.  You have to pick one.  If you listen to pressing or music that are not ideal for that curve, well, it just won't sound as good as it could have.

I am convinced that the vintage London Gold DECA and my Fidelity Research FR7f are evenly matched.  So this isn't nearly as much "cartridge" wars as it is tonearm and setup wars.

Here is what was happening.  I would listen to one arm and then the other and on that evening some or all of the pressings seemed to really favor a particular arm, so I assumed someone or myself bumped the lesser sounding arm out of alignment and proceeded to F with it needlessly because it was still perfect, but you can leave it how it was, you have to change something, so you do and now it is not perfect.  

I have been doing this back and forth for 6 months.... "Perfecting my setup" which in actuality means loosing it and then re finding it again.

BIG REALIZATION

I changed my methodology once I was convinced the tonearms were setup perfectly and measured perfectly because I lost and found it at least 10 times for each arm.  Well 5 times for the FR and 15 times for the AC.

This new approach involves simply listening to the first (or any) track with each tonearm/cartridge and choosing the winner.  Then listening to the rest of the album with that combo.

Now when this first started, I became disappointed in the looser and looked for something to blame it on.  Tonight I almost purchased more tonearm cables to try as if the 5 pair I have isn't enough.

The most recent was on Tuesday night during our listening session where we usually only spin vinyl.  I don't even remember the album, but it should have sounded great and I put the Fidelity Research on which has been winning the wars more that month and it sounded like crap.  Like what we so often call a "bad pressing" and I found it just barely listenable.  Kind of like ice tea from a drive thru that is just barely drinkable.

We played the first track and then switched to the DECCA / Audio Control combo and it was a holy crap moment.  Not even close.  Turns out the LP was in fact glorious sounding after all.  I have had that record for 15 years and never liked it, but tonight It was melting everyones brain.

OK, so now I slip a private listening session in just for myself and of course start with the DECCA.  I was listening to a new pressing I just purchased and it sounded too smooth, a bit rolled, just wasn't terribly good transparency wise or sound stage for that matter.  Good, but not great.

I listened to the whole side, and it never got better.  Changed to the FR7f and it was the exact same holy crap moment we had on Tuesday night but in reverse.  Now the FR7f just killed the DECCA.  Or let me be way more accurate than that... the FR64FX tonearm and how I have it set up and the particular curve, vs. the Audio Craft AC3000 with it's own setup and different curve...

So this is it, there is not going to probably be a single cartridge and tonearm that will sound perfect on every pressing, new and old.  You need two arms.  So if you haven't purchased a table yet, that is what I would look for.  Something that can mount up two tone arms.  And BTW even if you attempted to set up both arms exactly to the same curve it wouldn't matter because there are so many other variables at play including the fact that you can't probably set up two arms exactly the same.  Most people don't have the high dollar setup tools to accomplish it despite their skill level.

I have been very slowly having this realization since I built my new table, and finding that most of the records I didn't care for the sound quality on were and are actually great, you just have to find the right way to tickle it.

So the title, not so frikin fast comes from the urge to dick with your tonearm settings because you don't like the sound of a particular run of LPs.
You don't want to jack with it once you have verified it is perfect unless you can measure a change.  If the sound isn't ideal, it's the curve and the pressing compatibility that is causing it.











Steve
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Kahuna Jack
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Re: Not so frikin fast!
Reply #1 - 05/22/24 at 18:47:55
 
You used 2 different woods for your tonearm boards . Cosmetic reasons ? or for vibration control .  

Have you experimented with different materials in your tonearm board builds??? This vinyl part of the hobby like science is never ending .

Thanks for the insight into fine tuning a vinyl rig.

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Steve Deckert
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Re: Not so frikin fast!
Reply #2 - 05/22/24 at 20:58:51
 

I have found that the arm boards have a big effect on the sound.  They are led filled, the longer one uses two different woods each with a different density.

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red pill sanctuary
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Re: Not so frikin fast!
Reply #3 - 05/24/24 at 23:33:49
 
Your discovery is fascinating. Just goes to show how deep the rabbit hole goes!

Have you ever considered a linear tangential air bearing setup? I would love to hear your findings on that one.   This design does seem to make sense logically.  Now in real world settings, that mileage may vary.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Not so frikin fast!
Reply #4 - 06/16/24 at 06:09:54
 

Indeed.  Now the AudioCraft arm has been updated with a Moerch and the vintage Decca with a brand new one from the company that is frankly blowing my mind...   So these tests will continue but the price of the arm and cartridge has been multiplied by 10x to see what is actually possible.


My mentor, Dave Lancaster,  had an air bearing linear tracking arm with a compressor in the basement and Acoustat monitor 4's with the servo-charged tube amps that I now own.  This new 12 inch arm claims to have ZERO tracking error and is far easier to use and looks better than good.  It's a win-win situation.


Steve

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Steve Deckert
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Re: Not so frikin fast!
Reply #5 - 12/15/24 at 00:18:16
 

UPDATE

I went into this with the idea/observation that pending the way a record was cut and manufactured some tonearm cartridge combinations would play better than others.  I have since found out that's probably not really true.  My initial conclusion was because I had two decent (but not perfect) combinations that each had a different take on the sound.  Playing the first track of any record often found one or the other more desirable... meaning between the two one always sounded worse than the other.  Now I think that 'worse' has been replaced with 'different'... here's how that happened:

The first combination was a vintage used DECCA cartridge that I recently figured out has just a touch too much stylus wear to track perfectly but ultimately sounded best in the Audiocraft arm with the low mass arm tube.

The second was my Fidelity Research FR64x arm that has been my all purpose medium mass arm for 25 years and usually fitted with a MC202. Compared to today I couldn't tell you how good or bad it was in comparison because the stylus was damaged years ago. I made the assumption that this arm would be ideal for Fidelity Research's flagship cartridges the FR7/FR7f.  And while it worked without any issues and sounded good I recently found out I hadn't actually ever heard either one yet.

I purchased the FR7 used.  I don't recommend buying used cartridges.  It had issues - likely stylus wear or internal magnets shifted so I replaced it with a NOS FR7f. That was a fun moment in comparison, because it was really frikin good.

Fast forward to the present and now my entire reference has been changed by the new 2025 London DECCA cartridge.  Its naturalness and precision made the FR7f sound flashy and hyped up.  With the FR7f the images were larger in a smaller sound stage.  Embarrassingly I thought it was the cartridge, after all I thought I had the manufactures tonearm for that cartridge so it had to be perfect but later turns out it wasn't the manufactures recommended tonearm.  I just assumed it was.

The final result however was that I listened to the DECCA 90% of the time even when I didn't mean to, like when getting ready to A/B it against another setup and completely forget about the A/B testing.

Still this new Decca and Fidelity Research combination is a great setup because they sound different and that's what we want.

But here's the rub...

I ended up taking my Audiocraft AC3000 arm out of service because I replaced it with the Moerch DP-8 as supplied by DECCA.  I really loved the Audiocraft arm and am frustrated that I haven't been able to enjoy it yet, at least not fully.  The whole time I had the used cartridge mounted in it we were plagued with random tracking errors that turned out to be the cartridge.

Finally I came up with an excuse to put the Audiocraft back into service!  I need an affordable / great sounding cartridge that is in current production so that people who hear our vinyl system for the first time don't feel like they have to spend 12 grand on a tonearm and cartridge to get what they're hearing.  I would rather demo my amps on a less expensive cartridge so that the customer knows he or she can afford what they are hearing or something even better instead of the other way around.

Having been wanting to hear the Nagaoka MP500H - another great sub $1000 moving magnet cartridge from Japan, I purchased one and set the Audiocraft tonearm up for it.  I used a heavier arm tube because it modeled better on the calculator.  This arm tube was 35 grams which is about twice as heavy as the fidelity research, which also modeled fine in the calculator with this cartridge.  I believe the FR64x arm is around 20 grams.

Since the MP500H comes mounted on its own head shell to get the ball rolling when it arrived I just popped it onto the FR64x and started listening it was very nice.  Where the story gets interesting is when I finished setting up the Audiocraft arm I decided to try the FR7f in it just for kicks before I dialed it in for the new MP500H.

What I heard was very humbling moment.  The cartridge did not sound anything like it did.  It did not sound like the same cartridge.  I would have to say it was at least twice as good.  I was simply slack-jawed.  

So then the question became was it because it was a uni-pivot, was it the mass... or both perhaps?  I at that moment realized the FR64x was not the ideal tonearm for the FR7f cartridge.  Additional research confirmed it.  Turns out the FR7f is normally paired with the FR64S which is higher mass (35 grams).

After listening the MP500H in both arms I also preferred it in the Audiocraft.

So that's where it's at.  I have been wanting for a long time to explore the differences tonearms make and have learned that just because the compliance calculator says it's a great match doesn't mean it can't sound better in a different arm.  The second thing I learned is that the change in sound can be like hearing a totally different cartridge.







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4krow
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Re: Not so frikin fast!
Reply #6 - 02/20/25 at 23:27:21
 
Decades ago, Empire Audio had an ad that summed a lot up for me. It showed an album being held by a pencil sticking through the center hole with a hand holding the record. The Empire cartridge was being held by the other hand touching the needle to the record. The caption read, "This is all that we are trying to do, but perfectly." I have been chasing the rabbit ever since.
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