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My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage. (Read 3178 times)
red pill sanctuary
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My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
05/24/24 at 21:54:39
 
I would like to share my story of progression throughout the years since I started my current audio room project, the trials and tribulation, the disappointment, the glory...all factors which had to be endured before a conclusion can finally find a means to an end of exploration....to know that one has achieved success without the need to look any further to be satisfied.

I have been into audio since I began liking music around 1969...albums such as CCR, Beatles, Led Zeppelin...etc  This really did start it all for me.

Of course, I never seriously acquired high end audio equipment until well into the 90's. I always had mid grade equipment such as Carver amps, holographic pre-amp, Acoustic Research Speakers, Cerwin Vega speakers, Klipsch.....Technics turntable.....etc.  Most of my source material was vinyl.  I did however have the Carver CD player and a good collection of half speed mastered offerings on the Mobile Fidelity label.  Also my collection consisted of many Telarc CD's of the time.

So I was reasonably satisfied with this average grade system that I felt was pretty good considering what the standard baseline offerings in audio were for that period...thinking back into the 70's.   Yes, There was always Marantz, Kenwood, Pioneer....etc, But I had what I wanted and that was that.

So moving forward, one night I came across this website ( I believe it was in the fall of 1996), Decware....hmmm, never heard of it.  But somehow, I became entertained and found intrigue as to what I was reading from the author of the articles available to read.  This is when finally, I realized that there actually was someone out there in the audio world who really did have a deep understanding of this mysterious and widely misunderstood audio world.

Of course this was Steve himself. That my friends is where my real audio journey took root and has blossomed every since.  It would not be long before I became a customer and ordered the best premium set of mono amps offered at the time. You may remember the Sv83 tubes in the single ended class A format without feedback....pretty standard in a class act.

Then eventually,came the addition of the ZTPRE. Things are off to a really good start.   I maintained my original set of Carver "Amazing Loudspeakers" which I purchased new in around 1987.  These sounded truly amazing with holographic imaging that would take things to a much higher level than what any standard box speaker would be capable of.

Those were huge open baffle units set to 5 degree rake with a full line array of ribbon elements, alongside a quad array of flat metal subwoofers.  These things provided a very deep extension into the lower registers, but they were not efficient.  It was very difficult to extract the engaging feeling one gets from large powerful amplifiers that have enough headroom to not clip and fail.  

So I knew these speakers would have to be retired with no possible place in a system with low power class A SET amps.  I loved them, but they had to go.  It was time for a new phase in my audio journey.

So to find an agreeable set of speakers which would compliment these amps without too much struggle, I ordered what was to be (I believe), the very first set of speakers which Decware placed on the site for sale..if I am wrong about that, I apologize.  I just don't recall any other offerings at that time.

Of course, anyone who has been around this site since that time knows exactly what I am referring to...The original Radial Speakers in the round tubes.

Since then, many generations of speakers came into play. I had at least 6 or 7 different models to choose from at any time I pleased.  These were a far cry from that original set of Radial Speakers.

I began experimenting with acoustic control devices and began taking the factor of acoustics very seriously. My problem was that I was always renting, thus limiting my freedom to build what I really needed to have. I simply had to make do with what I had...no other option.

Since then, I progressed to building my own speakers to include the Decware folded horn subwoofer, the HDT's, and the NFX speakers.

I have heard many of these speakers along with many of the amp lineup in Decware's listening room (Decfest Events), so I had a very good representation of what great audio should sound like.

Now I was deeply hooked and the money hungry beast took possession of my wallet for the next several years. Audio perfection became an obsession with me and I became a slave to its course of progression. The next thing I know, I have a vinyl collection reaching upwards of what would be worth around 60,000 today.  So many rare titles still sealed from DCC, Mobile Fidelity, reissues mastered at the Acoustic Sounds Lab...etc.  Many of these titles are rare collector titles that have skyrocketed in value.....hundreds of dollars each...and more!

So of course I had to get a worthy vinyl rig to insure that I could get the most extracted out of those vinyl grooves.  Then comes the Teres turntable.  So I have this $1800 Japanese MC cartridge which needs a step up transformer and a decent phono stage to compliment the quality of the turntable.  Back to Decware again.  My order was placed.   I had a new step up transformer for my MC cartridge, and a Zen Triode Phono Stage on the way.   In those days, ordering new equipment did not have a long waiting list....maybe 90 days at most.

Then the desire for more power came into play.  If I do not have the low end frequency response and the power to make it clean and solid without forcing the amps into severe clipping and distortion, then this system is not right for me.  Although I listen to a great deal of Classical music, I also change course to Classic Rock and heavy metal from groups such as Metallica.  If you understand the demand for which any Metallica album places upon an audio system without falling on it's face, then you know just how powerful the low frequency content is, and with percussion that compliments that course.  I need a system that will make my senses one with the music..."singularity" if you will. If I do not feel connected to it in every way, especially the physical sense of it, then it simply does not meet my standard of acceptance.  I need to sit in the dark, my eyes closed so that only my ear-brain sensory perception can concentrate fully on the music before me.  I want to be transformed into a feeling of "being there live".  I want to believe that the drums and bass are actually playing in a live performance. I want to hear that crisp extended shimmer of the cymbals which seem to linger on endlessly. To hear separation of every tiny detail that most people have probably never heard in midgrade systems.

I want to perceive a sound-stage so wide and so deep that I can imagine myself in a live concert arena watching the band playing on stage.

All of those factors are very tough achievements in which to attain. There is such a delicate balance of all things considered for which become the real key to unlocking that secret.

You will never perceive the same experience in a room with walls as you would a wide open space without detrimental factors coming into play.

Until you are ready to accept the importance of acoustics as an interaction which gets in the way between the music, and your true perception of that music, then you simply have not made your journey complete.   Anyone who has achieved this level knows exactly what the truth is.

I come from many years of experience. I have the knowledge and confidence to know the difference. So I want to share some of my experiences as they pertain leading up to my current state of audio perception within my listening space. It does not matter whether you agree with me or not. I am not here to sell you anything, so there is no benefit in it for me other than I hope someone else will eventually learn from seasoned Veterens such as myself, and better yet, achieve something that is extraordinarily special to them.

BTW: I am also a military Veteran with over eight years active duty service and several tours of duty overseas...thank you very much! My experience runs deep from f4 phantoms, to f-15 strike eagles, to B1B bombers, A10 attack aircraft...etc.  My military career led me into the civilian sector working on non disclosed projects for Lockheed-Martin, and on to maintaining Boeing aircraft such as 767 freighters that Amazon leases and the like.  My career extends back to around 35 years of aircraft experience.   But enough about my history.  Just so you get an idea where I am coming from.

So as time went on....I upgraded to a ToriiMK2 amplifier using KT88's so that I could satisfy my need for more power.  There is no explanation necessary to describe that amp or it's capabilities.

Since then, I upgraded to the ToriiMK3 amp with EL34 tubes.I ordered that amp back in May of 2012.  I am still using that amp today.  I am completely satisfied.  If you follow this thread, I will explain why that amp is the last amp I will ever need.....and I am extremely confident about that fact.

So to conclude, this is the beginning of a continued thread which I have a great deal of information to convey concerning every step of the way in my current project  I do hope that if not merely entertaining, that it in some way will help guide others who might want to learn and improve their own situation.

Oh, and one more note: I just placed an order for a Zrock3 with every available option.  It is going to be a long wait before I get it.  So maybe I can kill some time here before it arrives. There will be much to say about that addition once it has been integrated.

Will post again soon.
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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #1 - 05/24/24 at 23:58:40
 
This is a strange forum law...but hey, I will get through it.  I tried to post an image.  Denied because there is a requirement for a 12 post minimum before that is allowed! So I will just ramble a bit over several posts until I can unlock that requirement...please bear with me.
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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #2 - 05/25/24 at 00:01:32
 
So let me tell you a bit more about my ongoing project. I am going to make several posts so I can unlock the hold on me for posting images.
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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #3 - 05/25/24 at 00:06:05
 
So I also wanted to mention that I will be discussing details about my own custom speaker design which you see at the bottom of my posts. They do play a critical role within this room evolution. I will explain why that is so later on.

These are my designs which I built myself.
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Reply #4 - 05/25/24 at 00:13:17
 
I originally designed this audio room to utilize a completely decoupled front wall (the wall is not what it appears to be).

This wall incorporated a driver array built within the isolated wall parameter in a floating configuration.  This was my attempt to counter the effects of boundary interference.  This was an extremely complex attempt to try, but I have no fear, and the show must go on!  

How did this work out.  Stay tuned and you just may find out.
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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #5 - 05/25/24 at 00:15:49
 
okay, so the game continues....eventually I will be able to upload an image.
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Reply #6 - 05/25/24 at 00:38:33
 
This "inwall" system is not by any regard a typical "drywall faced 16 inch on center" configuration.  It will take time to explain how it works, and why theoretically it should work with known advantages in its favor.

 Yes, as with any type of design, there is expected to be certain drawbacks that may not be deemed acceptable to some.  Keep in mind, this is an ongoing experiment. The whole point is to build it, and then ultimately test it.  If it does not lead up to ones expectations, then start all over with a clean slate.
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Reply #7 - 05/25/24 at 00:44:34
 
What you may find interesting about my room is that the walls are not really walls, at least not "ordinary" walls.  You will better understand what this means as I am able to post images later in this thread.  It has been said that a picture is worth a thousand words.  That is easily conveyed in my situation.
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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #8 - 05/25/24 at 00:51:11
 
What you will notice is that there are no implementations of quadratic sequence diffusers within this room.  There is good reason for that.  It is extremely difficult to extract the full potential of a quadratic diffuser in a smaller room due to the necessary travel time it takes to complete the cycle before it gets to your ears.

 The alternative for which gives the most logical solution is that of binary and ternary sequences. These work in as little range as three feet from the listener, making them much more effective in a room like this.
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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #9 - 05/25/24 at 00:54:12
 
The other thing that will evade your direct perception about this room concerns bass absorption.  Remember what I said about the walls not being what they appear to be....you guessed it, there is something hidden there.
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Reply #10 - 05/25/24 at 01:10:10
 
Okay, finally I can post an image....imagine that!

What you see is the back of the room. The huge full scale ternary diffuser sits at the bottom to cover the lower frequencies, while the huge binary sequence diffuser sits at the top for the high frequency range. There is a substantial degree of bass absorption built in behind and within these units.

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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #11 - 05/25/24 at 01:20:20
 
Here is a view of the side wall forward of my listening position. You see the right front corner diaphragmatic absorber alongside of the removable window cover which seals airtight to the frame. A floor standing curved binary unit in front of that.

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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #12 - 05/25/24 at 01:57:40
 
A close up view of the binary quad sequence diffuser/absorber unit which is curved for improved diffusion. You can see the detail behind the cloth. This unit does act as a bass absorption device as well.

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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #13 - 05/25/24 at 02:07:08
 
Now you see the upper front view of the room showing work in progress as I prepare to mount the drivers within the floating receptacles for the in-wall system. You see one of the suspended full scale binary diffuser/absorber units above.

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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #14 - 05/25/24 at 02:18:05
 
A wider view showing the installation of the thick engineered flooring over sound absorbing quiet walk underlayment.  You might wonder why I chose a hard reflective surface for the floor...soon I will make that all clear as to why this is necessary.

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Reply #15 - 05/25/24 at 02:26:59
 
View during construction phase with one of the seal-able window covers removed to expose the window.

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Reply #16 - 05/25/24 at 02:33:47
 
View of window showing one side of the covers removed at the back of the room. These covers seal airtight against the frames.

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Reply #17 - 05/25/24 at 02:43:29
 
Test fitting the driver array within the in-wall floating baffles.

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Reply #18 - 05/25/24 at 02:55:32
 
         Test fitting the drivers after machining the baffles.

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Reply #19 - 05/25/24 at 03:07:34
 
                 Checking the driver for surface flush seating.

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Reply #20 - 05/25/24 at 03:17:38
 
              View showing mid-range driver and tweeter.

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Reply #21 - 05/25/24 at 03:50:45
 
Full view at front of room under construction showing the open in-wall diaphragmatic absorber modules which get metal face plates.

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Reply #22 - 05/25/24 at 04:11:26
 
Left side baffle array installed. Complete isolation enforced by the use of a floating cradle prevents any transference of vibration or resonance to, or from the surrounding wall.

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Reply #23 - 05/25/24 at 04:21:18
 
   View of upper backside showing crossover view for left side array.

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Reply #24 - 05/25/24 at 04:29:42
 
Simulated driver array frequency response and impedance graphs for the in-wall system.

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Reply #25 - 05/25/24 at 04:38:49
 
A close view of the frequency response as simulated by X-sim for the crossover network. Shown from 30 Hz to 20 kHz and very ideal.

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Reply #26 - 05/25/24 at 04:48:31
 
Simulated response of crossover network ranging from 40 Hz to 20 kHz.

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Reply #27 - 05/25/24 at 04:57:35
 
    View showing left side quad array of 10 inch woofers.

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Reply #28 - 05/25/24 at 05:09:53
 
 Optimized impedance stabilization with zobel networks.

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Reply #29 - 05/25/24 at 05:26:52
 
 This image depicts the actual 3d view of the binary grid sequence that I created for the massive panels.

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Reply #30 - 05/25/24 at 05:31:53
 
       It all started with this simple base grid binary sequence.

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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #31 - 05/25/24 at 10:48:48
 
Interesting journey. Looking forward to future posts on this. How big is the room?

Thanks for your military service.

John
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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #32 - 05/25/24 at 13:36:19
 
Welcome. Very cool and thank you for sharing.
How did you choose the distance between the left and right channel speakers? They look very close together.
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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #33 - 05/25/24 at 17:12:27
 
This is very interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing where this leads.

Looks like a lot of engineering and ingenuity went into this. Thanks for sharing!

I have a fairly small 12Lx14Wx10H room and have done a modest amount of treatment but obviously nothing close to this. In the future I hope to have a larger room and look forward to the ideas/concepts presented in your posts.

Good luck and thank you for your service.
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Reply #34 - 05/26/24 at 03:23:53
 
Hello to all that have joined in here...I will eventually do my best to explain everything in detail as I continue with this extensive room build.  I have a tremendous amount of material that I used to make YouTube videos with.  Too bad I can't post videos on here...you might find them interesting.

The huge library of videos I had on my YouTube channel are now private. I did not get enough support to make it worth all of the effort and time I went into it.  You tube would plaster stupid ads all over my videos which I were not making a dime on. I decided that I was not going to be their fool and pulled the plug.  They were making money on my work, NOT me!

So I shall share my work here for a large group of people who I know will appreciate it and can get something out of it.  I don't mind helping Steve out...he always wants more people to get involved with room acoustics.  I am here to help.   Smiley
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Reply #35 - 05/26/24 at 03:46:13
 
Also; To answer a couple of questions asked of me, I will go over the details of my room size, the room modal response of this room, how it fits in for a near ideal size with all of the mods I have made.

Also, the beginning phase of this room experiment calls for an in-wall speaker arrangement set to a very minimum spacing for very good reason.  This has to do with S.B.I.R., first order reflections, inter-aural cross-talk, for the most part.  This integrated wall is actually purpose designed to act as a huge speaker baffle.  You can't do that with an ordinary wall.  This is no ordinary wall by any means.  This room will deceive you as you look at it's face value.  Once you discover what lies behind those walls, you will begin to understand the scope of this project, and why I designed it this way.

BTW: Part two of this experiment deals with using my custom made speakers which will take place of the in-wall speakers.  You might find it interesting as to what I discovered by comparing both types of speaker systems within this room.  That gets covered later in the next phase.

Bear with me, I have much to cover.  If I do forget to answer these questions, please remind me again. I am not ignoring you.

I think it is more interesting to jump ahead in the beginning to show you the attractive finished images before I go back into the dirty mess of deconstruction and rebuilding.  I will show you all of the steps as to how these implementations came about.  I may jump around a bit to keep things interesting, but I will cover all of the details.

Note: I began this project in 2019.  I kept myself busy with this during the Corona period.  I can still remember New Years Day sitting in this empty shell of a room, staring at it as I pondered what I should do to extract the absolute most from this room acoustically.  As I sat and thought...it suddenly hit me as clear as a bell, I had a vision, I saw everything at once in my mind...I actually visualized what is to be seen in finished form today.  The blueprint was in my head...it was time to make it happen.

And the rest is history.
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Reply #36 - 05/26/24 at 03:50:48
 
And also, thank you for your respectful honor on my behalf. I served to make things like this possible for Americans to do freely. I am not sure where the future is going...it looks very dark.  But I won't get into that here. This is not the place for it.

This is a good place to go and just forget about all of that. Smiley
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Reply #37 - 05/26/24 at 04:11:26
 
Well, since it was brought up, I guess a good place to start this evening is to provide a few details about the room itself.   You know what, I forgot what the actual measurements were when I took them...so long ago. Hey, I am old now, memory tends to waver..lol  The room is not large, that was the whole point of this project.  I got tired of all these professional blowhards telling me that my room would suck and there was no way I could ever get anything decent out of it musically. You know, I love a good challenge, and I am not afraid to take one of these guys on head first.  If I fail, I will accept that and move on.  But you know, it is that feeling of gratification one gets when you can prove something right.  I had too many "pocket ruler" types that would jump to conclusion and flat out tell me that any attempt to do this would lead to disappointment and failure.

In the end, that is the farthest thing from the truth!  I only wish I could blindfold those individuals and sit them in this room while I fire up something special from a warmed up Torii amp.  I would have to video record their expressions so that I can give them a copy to go home with and redirect their thoughts...lol

I am not going to assume anything.  My intention is to try something out, and keep modifying it until I find what I am looking for.  I just don't put much into what the mainstream says...after all, they are just opinions without facts to back them up.

And hey, you can say the same about me...no problem. We all have our take on things. But at least I am honest about my perspective on things, and I try to do the right thing.

It would be so much easier if I could just invite you all to spend an evening listening to music in this room.  I think you just might be pleased.
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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #38 - 05/26/24 at 04:22:56
 
So in the beginning, as I tried to formulate some type of perspective as to what I can expect from this rooms dimensions. ( I need to go measure the room again to let you know what it is....sorry about that).  Anyway, based upon the actual dimensions, this is what resulted. It is not the entire calculations, that is way too long...but you get the idea.

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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #39 - 05/26/24 at 04:27:49
 
Now to get an idea of just how bad this room would be concerning modal response...the dreadful influence of nodes and anti nodes....you know, all of the fun stuff!   Shocked

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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #40 - 05/26/24 at 04:32:57
 
It was not quite as bad as what I expected, but a far cry from being "golden ratio".

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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #41 - 05/26/24 at 05:30:30
 
Now you have to think, I did have the feeling that someone would immediately be thinking....my God man, don't you know that putting speakers into a wall will be total disaster!

And yes, that statement would be totally correct if someone was contemplating such a thing in a standard wall by just cutting some holes and sticking the drivers in there.  Hey, I certainly don't need to hear that to know what will happen.

So I knew, even with what I was going to do to satisfy some sort of relationship between this baffle wall and my perception to it's function, to take every possible step in order to make it work, I still knew that major failure could come at a price. Let me tell you, as you see the photos of this build and what went into this baffle wall, you will see just how costly this venture is.

First of all, let me explain my reasoning for attempting a baffle wall. I have long been concerned about the detrimental influence of problems such as S.B.I.R. (speaker boundary interference response), pretty much eliminated once the speaker is removed from the room, or at least greatly reduced.

The other major concern that I want to eliminate or at least bring under control, is the influence of inter-aural cross-talk ( the main reason for close proximity of the speakers to an inline direct path to the listener's ears.

Inter-aural cross-talk for those who don't know what it is, is basically a form of criss-crossing signals from the left channel to the right ear, and the right channel sending signals to the left ear respectively. What this creates is confusion to the ear-brain system which destroys the image one would be receptive to in an actual event outdoors free of boundaries, the very same type of confusion which does not exist with headphones. This condition only exists with loudspeakers.  The resulting influence flattens the huge expansion of three dimensional perception that should otherwise be heard.

So the reason why people love headphones so much is that this phenomenon simply does not exist, and therefore, the reason why listening through headphones can be so much better.

Without a physical barrier, or some very sophisticated, and extremely expensive software and components, this condition will always prevail, and it is very difficult to avoid it.  Not impossible, but it can be reduced by specific speaker positioning in perspective to the listeners head position.

I have many times had the good fortune of hearing recordings which reveal some very impressive holographic content, the three dimensional atmosphere which just seems to float around you as if there were no boundaries to interfere. This was all made possible by the use of methods in which to reduce inter-aural cross talk to a minimum.  I even experimented with the actual physical barrier with the speakers just inches apart from each side. (this was many, many years ago). Let me tell you, what I experienced from that experiment was mind blowing to say the least.  That was the closest thing to simulating headphones as one could get back then on a set of speakers.

I am a believer in keeping a system simple and direct, with as minimal external influence as possible.  The more you add to a signal chain, the higher the risk of contamination to the overall system.  It is not worth the trade off if other negative aspects are introduced.  So I do not entertain the idea of additional equipment, and that includes DSP within my system. I don't need that any more than I need a graphic equalizer...lol

That does not apply to external DAC's or something with special purpose such as a Zrock from Decware.  I certainly have full confidence in what these will do for any system.  Other than that, no, just don't want anything else. I like to keep it as pure as possible.

 Just thinking back to the 70's when everybody thought a graphic equalizer was a critical part of a system. They sure did push them through marketing though...imagine that. Grin
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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #42 - 05/26/24 at 05:59:48
 
Just going to post one more thing for tonight.  As I said, this leads to the use of these speakers. I designed and built these myself.  You will be hearing a great deal about them later on. I call these Q-force T.Q.W. B.C.E. concepts.  (Tapered Quarter Wave Bass Coupled Extension)

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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #43 - 05/27/24 at 02:20:28
 
I did a fresh input of the current "wall to wall" measurements as exist today, to provide some examples of room modal hot spots.  This applies to Bolt's range. Keep in mind that these estimates are based upon prediction, therefore not absolutely correct in the actual outcome of the room.  This does give a fairly good idea as to what to expect from a room this size.






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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #44 - 05/27/24 at 02:41:39
 







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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #45 - 05/27/24 at 03:04:12
 










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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #46 - 05/27/24 at 03:23:40
 







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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #47 - 05/27/24 at 03:41:03
 







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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #48 - 05/27/24 at 03:55:38
 







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Re: My Audio Journey Evolution, The Final Stage.
Reply #49 - 05/27/24 at 04:04:15
 
So as I can get a relative visual obtained from these prediction points, I also have been provided with a recommended degree of absorption needed based upon my room condition for RT60 results.

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