JB,


Must of been an interesting conversation with Sheldon Stokes. I remember that DAC diy project caught my attention back around that time. I never had the time to do anything like that until recently.  I am curious as to how it sounds. With a fresh recap and some break-in time, this should be optimum. It will of course depend on your choice of caps as to what voicing the signature will end up being. From all of the countless reviews for capacitor evaluations based upon the best sounding capacitors for the price, what I am seeing a huge pattern here is that the Jantsen Superior Z Caps are the most favored, and by a huge margin.

I like that I can get these from Parts Express here locally at a very reasonable price. Delivery next morning, or just a 35 minute drive to go pick up.

I have decided to use the Jantsen Superior Z caps in my DAC project. Superb performance without that insane price tag such as the overpriced, OVER-HYPED Boutique caps desired by those with way too much disposable money.  I really want to do a A/B test with those caps costing ten times as much, just to hear the outcome. Talk is cheap, PROOF in real time is the confirmation! A controlled environment, the same room, the same equipment, the same music track....and the answer will be clear and final. Could get really embarrassing for the elite class. Good caps are important, but there is a limit as to how far they really go over another, once a certain level of quality is attained.

I find it humorous that the guys who think they have to spend a couple of grand on "THE BEST" caps out there, based upon how much they cost, are the same guys who most likely have lost the upper registers in their hearing anyway.  Just how much of a difference can a guy over 50 really hear above 10 kHz anyway?  Before one answers that, do a quick listening test with high quality headsets using a frequency sweep generator. If you can actually hear these frequencies above 13 kHz, then it might be worth buying these super expensive exotic capacitors. If not, then who are you fooling other than yourself?  That is a cold hard fact of reality. But hey, I'm sure your kids will notice the difference. The older a man gets, the more degraded his hearing. There are much better methods in audio capable of MUCH more noticeable impact upon the quality of music. And that is where the difference counts for older men like us, with what nature has left instilled within our limited ability to hear the upper range. You would be surprised as to how many people have hearing deficiencies within the critical mid-range, especially where the female voice is centered. That is why a professional audio-gram is the only way to know just how intact our hearing really is. No expensive capacitor in the world is going to overcome that!





Only then can we actually, and accurately, judge an audio component fairly. There has to be an even balance to be sensible.


Anyway, glad to see that your room update is coming along nicely, and your projects are getting the attention needed. That shop area looks great. Very professional.

Which diffusers are you planning to build?

I know guys half your age that don't have your energy and determination!  Keep up the good work.

Quote:


Double Ha! I felt like a 5th wheel with a deuce of couples dating(maybe closer to a third wheel!). Dave wanted me to meet the designer of my completed DAC so we had lunch together. Dave and Sheldon are great guys. Dave invited Karen and I for dinner at his place later. It was different at his place, just when those two got together and started engineering talk, I had nothing to add.

I don't exactly see it the same as an elderly audiopile. If the full range of audio and beyond is intact it can and does have a hearable impact on use old geezers!

For now, I plan on building 4X4 P13 for side reflections. I still want to build the binaries for above my sweet spot. That will be the finishing touch before a 25th SE84 makes it to the front door sometime early next year or maybe sooner the way amps are flying out of Peoria  

Getting back to recent upgrades and what I have noticed so far.



Here are my Q-force speakers removed from the cradles and sitting directly on the floor. With these sitting at this proximity to my ears in a direct fashion, this position is perfect for the portrayal of holography for which the C9 creates so very well. If you mount a laser in direct center with the phase plug, the path would fire a straight line within one inch of each ear perspective of each channel. These speakers have a rake of 5 degrees which engulfs my head space in an ideal manner for best perception of space around the instruments and vocals. The massive diffusers behind my head immediately dissolve and scatter the direct beams of sound to eliminate recurring detrimental reflections which negatively affect the acoustic space.

Yesterday, I removed the original full range drivers, disconnected the supplemental tweeters, and removed the entire crossover network components within. The tweet remains in place, but no longer serves any purpose. It is not necessary, it simply is removed from the equation. This is a fresh platform for which to test the much higher quality Tang Band W8-1808 full range drivers. These drivers are a direct drop in with matching screw points. A perfect fit. The enclosures are Tapered Quarter Wave designs that produce an F3 of 27 Hz before roll-off occurs. The extreme engineering of these high quality speaker designs are deserving of the better W8-1808 drivers for maximum performance. I should have used these drivers from the beginning.

A properly built speaker with the right "full range driver" is always going to be the best possible in terms of resolution and realism. There are zero components in the signal path to color and taint the sound.  Many would argue that the open baffle design with "crossover-free" full range drivers are the ultimate. Everyone has their preference, but I think there is a great deal of merit concerning that design. It really depends upon the signature that you want to achieve. I have found that type of design very promising to say the least.

Here are the speakers after the driver upgrade.
















This is the superb Tang Band W8-1808 full range driver that now displaces this speaker enclosure.











This is the one of several major upgrades made recently which really make my ToriMK3 sing in all it's glory.

Greg,


The W8-1808 in my speaker designs sound phenomenal with the C9. I have had them for a long time. Should have installed them a long time ago.

I believe that Parts Express still has them in stock for around $375.00 per driver.

Yes, I am setting up for continued evaluations within my highly refined acoustic environment. I was working on the initial stage of this, but I am just exhausted from today's activities.

I am putting this off for tomorrow.

This is the beginning of a new phase on this thread. If you find this of interest, then stay tuned and check back often. There will be much more to come for quite some time. I shall attempt to accurately convey what I hear within the various music titles, and changes within the equipment.


I'm done for tonight.

Thanks for the comment.

Later

JB,

Thanks for the feedback, and the suggestion, it is well noted and absolutely a critical factor to acknowledge.

I will add that this is not my first time taking a stroll around the speaker building block. I tripped over one and got hurt.



So yes, you make a very strong point which any good speaker designer would not overlook. When I said that "it is what you don't see that makes these designs so special" certainly took the driver back wave under full consideration. I am not providing full disclosure because I want to protect the design details so that someone doesn't copy and sell my design.  I am still reserving that possibility for a later time.

Let's just say as an example, I want you to visualize the concept of a venturi, or that of a one-way check valve. The flow can only go one way with tight control preventing backward flow. This can also be conveyed similar to the way a high speed diode works for which it is very effective.

With proper design, the flow of air pressure is pulled away from the rear of the driver and directed downward within the tapered quarter wave structure much like the way a vacuum maintains it's forceful extraction in a cyclonic event. Adding to that, there is no direct plane of existence to conflict within the rear of the driver which would create bounce-back reflections. This is carefully designed to absorb and control that detrimental aspect without impeding the performance of the speaker.

Sure, we always have to deal with problematic resonance issues. I feel this is not a problem for my design. Double barrier structures with proper bracing and materials go a long way to controlling resonance issues.

Absolutely this was one of the first major points to consider when I built these designs. Actually, it was one of the most critical areas for which I concentrated on.  Let's just say that this is not a problem with my designs, and it won't have much effect upon the ultra fast "thin" construction of the cones.


 One more note:  Here again, this brings up the reason why it makes perfect sense to have open baffle speakers set up properly within a room using the required acoustic control measures to bring it all together.

 Perhaps this is why so many Audiophiles praise this design by a large degree of affirmation.


There must be something to it.



As for my time in the military, those years created a path of experience for me that otherwise, I would have never gained knowledge from. I indeed had my share of experiences during that period. I traveled the world, and also the states extensively during my career. Most of what I was part of was very secretive in nature for which a security clearance was mandatory. Have you ever been interviewed by the FBI? I have, just imagine that. The government knows more about your existence than you do yourself. If you try to BS them, that is automatic grounds for denial.

You don't want unstable whack jobs working around live nuclear warheads. Even though there are extensive security measures always in force, it only takes one slip up in the wrong hands. Our mission was counter deterrence from the Soviet Union. You slept well at night because we were always on guard and at the ready.

The B1B you see in the image is part of the nuclear triad force of that time. The newer stealth bomber took over that role for which it still stands today. I feel so old now, just like those mighty aircraft which are now obsolete with today's technology. Where in the hell did the time go!!!


Get that room ready JB, I just may be coming your way to compare notes.


You must be completely "stoked" with your DAC!

I can't leave anything alone.


It wouldn't be any fun if you did!  We can't learn anything if we don't explore the possibilities.

I can see that you are set up for favorable results with the C9 as well.  A very smart choice on your part.

So did this little mod do anything noticeable for the sound? Like anything else, if it is detectable by human hearing, and it makes an improvement, then of course you have success. When you are at the level of those designs, any improvements won't come easy. That is not to say it won't happen.

The great thing about audio is that exploration is our playground. Who has the better sandbox?

To give a broader perspective as to what is involved with my current equipment line up which will be used in the initial listening evaluations, here are some internal views of my (09 version) upgraded ZERO DAC. This DAC sounds extremely good for something priced on a budget level. The original version of this DAC gained high popularity within the audio circles for its great performance for such a low investment. (typical of a Chinese import)

The original DAC design had a couple of issues which needed upgrading due to over heating and premature failure. There were also some areas which could benefit from better quality components and a couple of areas which completely needed redesigned to make this unit a much higher quality product. The heat failure situation was corrected mainly with larger heat sinks and a few other improvements. Higher quality Mosfets for voltage regulation was one of those upgrades if I recall correctly.

Tighter value components of audiophile grade replaced much of what was used in the original version. You will find many Elna Silmic II caps throughout, as well as high quality Nichicon caps, and the use of higher quality film caps.

The extensive and brilliant use of ferrite filters, which are electronic components made of ferrite used for suppressing and dissipating high-frequency electrical noises, are used throughout very strategically. These filters are effective at attenuating EMI in electromagnetic circuits and devices.

You find a well designed power supply using a high end toroid transformer. The circuit board is of premium multi layer quality which replaced the original lesser grade board.

To top things off, the output stage is based upon twin high end audiophile grade Burr Brown OPA627 OPAMPS. These are easily removed quickly for "chip rolling" if desired. This provides the easy upgrade to the more advanced discrete HDAM modules which are readily available now for upgrading at a reasonable cost.

The case is premium quality with a clean design. This unit offers Toslink fiber optic input direct from the transport, or USB and coaxial are options as well. The output provides unbalanced RCA connections.

This unit provides a separate headphone amp circuit dedicated for that reason. I do not use it, and it is completely discrete from the DAC circuit itself. This unit was never known for being a great sounding headphone section, but that doesn't matter to me.

When I purchased this DAC based upon the popularity and great reviews of it's performance, I merely was curious, and simply wanted to see just how good this DAC really was for such a ridiculous low price. The price for this level of quality would easily be an increase of 700 percent or higher if sold through a dealer in the US.

That would place it among the higher priced units that are currently being sold through retail outlets locally. I ordered my DAC directly from the builder in China, eliminating all of the other costs. I was able to custom order my unit direct with the options I wanted. It was custom built for me on demand.

So the playing field must yield to all factors considered before true value can be actually determined. The price of something is not a good indicator which conveys actual performance and credibility. Remove the cost of production, the middleman, the high labor costs, marketing costs, transportation cost, etc, and you just eliminated 80 percent of what you are paying for with high priced retail products distributed and sold through audio dealers.

Buying direct from the actual shop who designed and built the product eliminates most of that cost which jacks up the cost of products substantially.

The actual value depends upon the circuit and what lies within. This design carries a huge return on investment, and so much more. This unit can easily go up against designs costing ten times over. The sound quality suggests something MUCH more expensive to say the least.

I operate this DAC directly from the TEAC transport, bypassed within the Tascam player. Output is fed through fiber optics directly to the DAC, and then routed to the C9 holography generator before going out to the amplifier.  Soon, there will be additional testing with the new Zrock3 in the loop.

We begin with a look at the power supply inside of the DAC.





























I will focus upon interconnects and speaker cables next.


To be continued.

Okay, I want to cover the HDAM technology which is available right now in many flavors and prices. HDAM stands for (High Definition Analog Module).

If your intent is to remain with an output stage using OPAMPS, then this is for the price, the most rewarding upgrade one can make to a DAC for such a very low investment. I doubt that one could find a better return on investment, considering what this very simple and quick upgrade will do for your system. This will do FAR more for your system than rolling expensive tubes, or upgrading to esoteric capacitors, by a long shot! The same goes for expensive pixie dust cables.

This is like adding a supercharger to your existing engine. The results are that incredible if the right module is chosen to complement your DAC.

If you only use a tube output stage, bypassing the OPAMP stage, then this is of no interest to you as it is no longer used in your DAC. If however, your DAC is set up like mine, then you would have the option of using either of the two output stages as desired.

You can do your own research on this technology if you wish, as I am not going into that here at this time.

I myself am very interested in trying out the offerings from Virtual-HiFi which are variations of multiple chips integrated on one card in parallel to increase performance exponentially. I want to try the top of the line which has a total of EIGHT chips paralleled on a single card which simply installs directly into the existing OPAMP socket. This model is "Brute Force One" which sells for a very reasonable price of only $134.00 online direct. That is a serious BANG for your buck to say the least.

Upgrades of this nature are far more relevant and rewarding than that of cable, tube, or capacitor changes. Once this upgrade is made, then the addition of better cables and caps can really be advantageous concerning the degree of gain you will actually receive from all upgrading in general.

Stock OPAMPS used in DACS of past are obsolete by comparison of what a new supercharged chip will do in it's place. What do you suppose the most expensive DACS being engineered today use?  Pretty sure this technology is a vital aspect of what makes current DACS sound so superior. Again, if your DAC design uses a tube buffer output stage, and that is all that you use, then this doesn't matter for you.

"Stacking" multiple OPAMPS in parallel is one way to get this type of performance, but this comes at the trade off for increased heat which usually requires heat sinks to keep cool.

The other way is to upgrade using a single (HDAM) which usually takes up less space, and may, or may not require additional cooling.

Either way you go, that choice will make a significant difference to the performance of your DAC.

If you build computers and are familiar with what "over-clocking" a CPU does for performance with all settings set to maximum, then you get the drift as to how relative this method is pertaining to upgrading the DAC with a higher performance chip. Of course, as an example, when you overclock a CPU, it is being stressed to it's upper abilities, therefore generating a great deal of heat which will self destruct without additional cooling methods.

Consider this benefit like upgrading from an Intel Core i5 of five years past, to a current generation Intel Core i7 chip. This is like comparing a Chevy to a Ferrari.


Here are two examples from the product line offered from the Virtual HiFi website. They have various models and configurations to suit just about any DAC.







You may find it interesting to watch this video.





As for choices available in the HDAM line up, there are many.



You might enjoy watching this demonstration on YouTube. This is simply an A/B test without you knowing which model you are hearing. This gives you an opportunity to choose which you think sounds best without bias to any particular model.

Make sure that you do this evaluation with high quality headsets in a quiet room. Do not try to attempt this with just the computer audio as the result will be worthless. Over-ear headsets like the Beyer-Dynamic DT770 PRO model, or something similar, are best to hear these differences in quality.

I think the end result will shock you as to what you choose as your favorite. I thought for sure that my choice was the one I assumed it to be, but guess what, that was not the case. They will disclose everything at the end, please don't cheat and skip to the end to find out. It is the blind testing that makes this evaluation so important. Give it a shot, you just may be surprised.

Of course, what you hear in this video by means of quality destroying compression, is nowhere near what you would hear from an actual demonstration in a professional listening room. Regardless, the difference is quite noticeable and easy to distinguish among the variants evaluated.

Let me know what you think if you try this, and post your results here. Many might find this interesting to hear from other's perspective regarding these HDAM chips.  This actually helps those who are interested in trying one of these upgrades.





Here is that video:





This definitely helped me to be better informed concerning my choice. I found the results quite enlightening.

I have had this new DAC burning in for roughly twenty hours now. The worst part of the initial break-in period is past for the DAC stage. The tube buffer stage has a long way to go before those capacitors begin to operate at optimal levels with stability. I will say this as a pre-curser to what's ahead for possible sound quality improvement with this tube stage. From the very first moment I heard what this Musical Fidelity X10 design presented, and that of being brand new, zero time on it, and with a cold system, it became apparent that this design holds great promise for which break-in time, and the proper upgrades, are going to create for this tube-stage when finished.  I can easily predict an ideal musical quality second to none.

The initial break-in period is rather irrelevant at this time due to the fact that I will be upgraded most of the tube output stage with higher quality parts, particularly the transformers, capacitors, resistors, and tubes.

Whatever break-in period I have before the upgrades just goes out the window with a full reset. The burn-in period starts all over again. That is why I want to get the major upgrades done as soon as possible. I expect around 200 hours on the DAC/ tube stage before sounding really optimal and at it's best. I have an estimated 10,000 hours+ on my ToriiMK3 Amp. I can tell you from experience that it sounds far better now than it ever did. The aging process with full seating of the components as it becomes seasoned is where the amp is now, and it just keeps getting better.  My ZERO DAC has roughly 6,000 hours on it, and it too has developed favorably over the years. My Tascam transport isn't too far behind that time period.

The new toroidal transformer with triple secondaries was supposed to deliver yesterday, but was delayed in shipping.  I was expecting to have that upgrade finished for evaluation last night, but that didn't happen. The transformer should deliver within the next three hours today. As soon as it gets here, I will be installing it. Then a few hours of warming up with some initial break-in, and I will give it a listen again tonight with the tube stage back in operation. I do look forward to hearing this. I removed the bad EI transformer after it began buzzing. While waiting for the new replacement, I have been listening with the OPAMP stage.


For now, I will just go over some details concerning what I have heard from this kit so far, and convey some initial impressions. First of all, not sure if anyone took my suggestion and tried the OPAMP A/B test at the link I provided on YouTube, but the OPAMP at the top of that evaluation comparison shoot-out had one chip that is the same as what came with this DAC. The NE5532 OPAMP made by Texas Instruments was one of those tested blindly without you knowing what you listened to at the time.  It was definitely intended to be one of the lower performing chips in the line-up, and certainly one of the cheapest.  Funny thing is, it did not fair badly going up against the stiff competition which cost a hundred times over. I will state that it certainly is nothing to get excited about. It does need to be upgraded. This OPAMP can be purchased from Mouser for about $2.00.

The most expensive HDAM cost is roughly $150.00, with most contenders in the range of $50.00 to $100.00. *( These are HDAM modules which are a technological improvement above normal OPAMPs).  So considering where this chip placed in the competition, it did okay on average for the cost factor. The NE5532 is not a bad sounding OPAMP.  I consider it to be (upper-mid-level) compared to most products on the market. Certainly not high end, but very acceptable for those who are not critical audiophiles. This is the typical OPAMP used in mainstream equipment, not for high-end audiophile grade DACS.

My main goal for this new DAC is for the tube stage to be my primary listening component anyway, but I can switch over to the OPAMP output stage whenever I feel like doing so. This is very handy for direct and immediate comparison listening tests between the two output stages. This allows the listener to hear exactly what differentiates these completely different forms of technology.

Some like the clean but "sterile" sound signature that solid state is known for. Others like myself, are far more accepting of a good quality tube output stage for the DAC. You can call it a form of  "pleasant" even-order-harmonic-distortion if you like, but I do not look at things in that simple state of mind. Things are much more complex than that. Again, people have opinions based upon their preferences.

I base my opinions on fact and actual experience. The only thing that matters is how the listener who uses this equipment perceives the absolute outcome within their mind, and through their hearing potential. The best thing for each and every listener is the very thing they have accepted as their favorite. You can't dispute that fact. I don't buy something, or pretend to back a product based upon what some profit based "professional" reviewer comes up with as the final word in audio. He may try to set his opinion in stone, but I shall shatter it if I do not agree. It is not my concern as to how someone else perceives my system.

Since only I listen, and am satisfied with what I choose, the opinion of others becomes totally irrelevant to say the least concerning MY choice.  I could probably become "judge and jury" concerning my opinion of another system. Again, what we like as individuals in our own honest perception is all that really matters. If you like what you have, then don't feel the need to find something that may, or may not be better. Better than what? That is the golden question.

I certainly did not expect much in the way of finding a WOW factor upon hearing this DAC output stage equipped with the standard grade NE5532 OPAMP as it came stock. But I did expect that it would sound fairly acceptable, taking it's initial stance as a foundation for upgrade. Upgrading an OPAMP within my two DAC units is as easy as can be. The most complex part is operating a screwdriver to take the cover off. You can swap one of the output stages as fast as you can swap a vacuum tube on a Decware amp.  If you can change a lightbulb on your own, then you can do it.

Before I go into my impressions of the NE5532, I want to go back to the first night that I listened to the tube output stage on a completely fresh unit. This tube buffer is cloned after the very well designed Musical Fidelity X10 tube circuits. This currently drives a set of ECC88 tubes with Chinese 6n11 versions which came with the kit. Before I actually tried these tubes, my dark sense of predetermined bias against what these are at face value, had me convinced that these would beg for immediate replacement with something better. But hey, they are good for initial testing, and they do provide a starting point for an upgrade, and not a bad one at that.  

Look, for the ridiculous low price of this kit, these parts were just a benny to what is actually paid for. This kit was purchased for the DAC board, and the tube stage as the primary objective. That is where the focus is upon quality, and outcome to full potential of this DAC when finished.  They upgraded the DAC board with the best quality components available, the very ones that Mr. Fikus designed for this layout after extensive testing and evaluation of every component type available for this use.

The builder who supplies this kit built it with the same high grade components exactly as the final product was built by Fikus (creator of the world class Lampizator DAC's) who termed this design "Lampucera".

This DAC is based upon the best chips available, with the option to roll OPAMPS freely for personal choice. With a high end Cirrus Logic DAC chip and receiver based on 24 bit 192kHz technology, utilizing ultra premium master clock stability, this certainly needs no further examination to understand that this DAC means business! A major upgrade here which was determined to be the best overall was that of the Sanyo OSCON capacitors throughout the circuit.

The majority of the remaining circuit benefits greatly by use of premium Nichicon, and ELNA Silmic capacitors, along with nice WIMA film caps where most critical in the output stage. If I had tried to build this circuit using these exact same parts, my cost would have been much higher. Besides, the DAC comes ready to plug and play. It doesn't get any better than that. The beautiful thing about it is that I didn't spend a great deal of money on the base platform which is crucial to overall performance. This allows me to spend my money on the upgrades that I want in this DAC, built specifically to my specifications.

They sell this kit with the expectation and recommendation to upgrade with high quality transformers and output stage capacitors to bring this unit up to high-end standards. For the price they offer this kit at, they simply can't offer these premium components without raising the price considerably. The upgrades I have planned for this build are at least four times over the initial cost of this kit. And that does not cover the cost of a chassis and every other component that goes into the final build. The final cost is going to be high, but a far better deal than an equivalent high end DAC from a dealer.

To be fair, the DAC is only half of the equation. One still has to consider a high quality transport worthy of sending accurate signals free of jitter to the DAC stage. If the transport is substandard, the rest is pointless. It all becomes a waste of time. Without a high-end ultra stable transport, the final result will be limited to  the transport's limitations. No matter how well tuned your car engine is, as soon as you feed dirty fuel into it's complex fuel injection system, bad things are going to happen, and it is not the fault of the engine.

I use the TEAC CD5020A transport with a direct feed out to the external DAC via Tos-link output. This is one of the most stable drives in the industry which is the choice found in many high end CD players, and some of the best players ever produced. The master clock is of extreme accuracy and stability. This is the most important factor to consider if you expect a DAC to be something great. The DAC output will always be governed by the quality of the transport.

The TEAC CD5020A drive comes standard in the Tascam line of CD players. This provides the perfect base to start from. This drive performs virtually flawless within it's ability to track discs without error becoming an issue. I have played hundreds of Verbatim CD-R discs which I recorded using FLAC-lossless technology. Not once have I ever incurred a skip, a glitch, or any sign of noticeable error during playback with this unit. As for original discs, that fact remains the same. The quality factor of this drive is unwavering with it's precise delivery.

There are many lesser grade drives out there that simply will not play these CD-R discs without excessive error, that is if they have the ability to play them at all. Simply not an issue with the right transport. So yes, absolutely without doubt, the transport is the first, and foremost part of the DAC which will reveal how good it actually is.

 On the other end of the spectrum, the final stage design is what determines the actual sound signature. So many things determine that, but one thing stands out for me like no other, and to a much greater degree. That single thing is the use of a well designed tube output stage. For me, that is what makes a great DAC. May not be everyone's cup of tea, but it sure is mine. For me, that is all that matters. I will take that even order harmonic BLOOM that some call distortion, and simply appreciate that element which makes the sound of tubes so very special in high end audio, with a euphoric sense of virtual space, and divine ambience.

My point has been made, so you know where I am coming from, and what I expect to meet my goal.

Back to the initial listening impression during the first night with the tube output stage in this DAC kit. With my trained ear, and a controlled sense of pitch within the music, I find it relatively easy to detect changes within the music, no matter how subtle or complex. I focus upon each instrument, the space between those instruments, the overall ambience of the presentation, and the sense of "you-are-there" realism for which music should be able to persuade the listener if conveyed correctly.

Of course it helps to have a professional acoustic environment as the first basis of consideration if one expects to evaluate a system with any real merit. I think that I have that covered in an agreeable manner. This entire thread is based upon that foundation. I am simply just getting to the point where I can accurately perform evaluations of music without the room getting in the way. The room factor is ready, so now the music can be fairly evaluated. It is time to find out what mods or upgrades will take this musical journey even farther into the void of the unknown.

As I  told you previously, the initial listening session was cut short after a few hours due to a cheap EI transformer buzzing loudly as a result of what I expect to be a case of "magnetostriction". This transformer powered the tube output stage, and it simply is not good enough to use.

But, in the short time I had to really listen deep within the potential of this tube stage, I have to say, I was projecting great anticipation as to where the quality of this design is going based upon what I am hearing right out of the box.  Take strong consideration of the factors here at this time of crude implementation. When you consider that this DAC is fresh, and subject to burn in for decent sound quality parameters to take hold within justifiable enforcement, then you understand just how "raw" and untamed something like this is in the beginning. As I had said, my expectations were to hear extreme congestion, smearing, lack of detail, etc.

Wait a minute...that is nowhere close to what I actually perceived from the first two hours of this DAC coming alive. Oh sure, maybe it will sound okay for a an hour or so, but soon, I expected it to begin drifting into oblivion. Look, with cheap Chinese tubes, cheap Solen output capacitors in the most critical areas of the tube stage, and with those substandard transformers in the power supply, I was prepared for the worst.

What is size of the boards? I am giving this a serious look as the first project for 2026.

Almost pulled the trigger again this morning, then I had a listening session. Off to the wood shop I go

Keep me busy? Well, if the kit is available this fall and my interest is not wane, it will be pursued. There is an old case for its use.

Just this morning a new project was created from an old China item after failure of finding a suitable 3 inch woofer that would fit in the case. The old woofer has a failed connection of the voice coil and unrepairable, at least in my view. All the replacements that could be found was just a tad to big. Part numbers on the driver just turned up a video of the blue tooth boom box with the woofer being tortured out of it's tuned chamber.
I need a test bench amp. So, the guts of this item will serve the purpose along with some old kiosk speakers. All parts, now in a bin, will mount nicely under the test instrument's shelf. So win...win!


There are probably a dozen or so projects waiting for completion in bins and on shelfs. Some have all the parts and others need further diagnostic work. Priorities will prevail!
Thanks for the info 👍 What is the height of the highest part?

Again, another great price on high quality capacitors, that is IF they are Legitimate.


What about these? Anyone have experience with these?







I wonder how these rate against the Miflex capacitors?

Quote:


I would bet the description matches the Fuat-a-cap item. It states pure copper tube. To me that would depic a copper tube on the outside and composition material inside. The last caps you show look like those are wound with copper in oil. My take anyhow.
Why not use a lesser expensive cap and bypass with a smaller value copper wound? Or just bite the bullet and use what you think will be the best.

If you pull in my driveway to a house as you pictured then by all means back right out and foor it out of that area

I have gotten a lot of good sounding stuff from China, but carefully, going with sellers with good ratings and researching the things well before buying, including warranty especially on tubes. Also lots of good stuff from the US, Canada, and English sellers for parts. I look around every so often and tend to stock up on sales, but decent prices from partsconnexion, sonic craft, and hificollective, the latter my fav these days since they have a great variety of vetted things... The partsconnexion site has a lot too, but is for me horrible to browse for things since it was "upgraded," so I tend to not go there anymore... why get angry every time I look for stuff when I can avoid that! Sonic craft is good, Jeff knowing a lot, but his vetting makes for more limited choices... and several others, but I tend to make bigger orders when I get to it so that shipping has less impact, sometimes causing me to prefer more selection.

Right now you can get Miflex caps (and others) from hificollective in England for similar prices as you found on Ali. That was the first place I found and bought Miflex KPCU, KPAL. and KFPM, maybe 2018? And especially when the dollar is strong they have good prices with relatively fast shipping.

I am working on my Musical Paradise DAC lately, similar concept to yours, and it is powerful in presenting changes with its pretty great design... Caps and tubes are mostly what I have explored, and the composite caps I am using to find the right value and synergy are made up of those I have around. From lots of years of modifying things, I have a pretty good supply of favorite parts, wires and tubes.

I have found consistantly that making up my own composite caps can result in better sound than any of the good caps I have tried on their own, and not bypassed by sound. Similar as JBZ suggests, starting with a decent base cap and bypassing with more musical and complete caps has worked well for me, over time with lots of combinations giving really good results. And it is not just the caps used, which I find can be similar to reviews, but you can't define synergy with tech specs or based on the impressions of others... for me, synergy in pulling all the balances of balances is the final determinant for the real magic. Also to me, value is often sorely overlooked, a little heavier value having a little heavier sound, and too little value can get too thin, and each effects the density, dynamic and spectral balances, etc. So I am listening for value as an aspect of the spectral range, density, dynamics, fine detail complexity, space, immediacy... in a resolving system/room, all of which powerfully influenced by caps, and the ultimate cap value.

Then, like it sounds with your budding DAC, here, tubes powerfully effect the output equation... With mine allowing lots of 6 and 12V tubes, with cap sets, for me, that is a lot to put together for the most optimal sound.

This DAC is designed for a fairly powerful signal, and as my system becomes more resolved and fast, it takes less push to make it sound great, so I finally wanted to reduce the power to the tubes a little. With the advice of the designer, I took off and shorted across the connections for one of 4 zener diodes, reducing the voltage to the tubes some and that helped. Also bypassing the film cap on the power supply board has helped with speed, and density with space. More experiments to come, but getting really good.

Since you are where I was a few months ago with your new DAC of similar concept, and since I have explored lots of caps, and combinations for quite a few years, I will go into some detail. Not that optimal caps will be the same for you, but what I have learned might be useful as you find your sound.

I have tried Jantzen Superiors as base caps in many places over time, for me, consistently nicely balanced caps that are just a little too lackluster for me even with careful bypassing. Overall, I have preferred their silver version, but I typically like others better, the silvers clearer and more dynamic by a bit, but sometimes tending a little over-stated in expression of the same basic sound for me.

But they are decent caps, and I had some around. My DAC calling for 1.5 uF up to about 10 on the zero negative feedback tube output stage (no opamps), I started with the stock 6.8s bypassed, then 3.3s bypassed, and finally preferred 1.5s with bypasses (I did not have any 2.2s). The bigger caps were compelling, but for my setting, too dense, full and slow.

This DAC has four outputs paths, where you can use all four for balanced out and the most powerful sound, or two out for single ended, with a less dense, and a less expensive sound! And the tubes used totally effect my final cap choices, some of each warmer and fuller, some faster and more open, some more powerful and denser, and some leaner and more open and complex. I am tending to prefer the powerful sound (in this design) of E88CCs, or, more often, once adjusted for, I like the milder more spacious sound of 6CG7s. Those two types (along with 6SN7s with adapters), seem to work well with the same caps, at least along with tuning the many balances with my pre-stage's gains and tubes to find the best sound with each tube.

Still exploring, but I will put in a few pics from the many iterations I have tried, pointing to the possibility that you may be like me and end up needing to explore caps and cap combinations some to find your favored sound.

The designer of this DAC prefers 2.2uF VHAudio Odams, which I can understand having compared them to Miflex Copper Oils and finding the sound more family than not. If I recall correctly, as coupling caps in my Torii IV, the Vcaps were a little more dense and dynamic, but still complex and rich, especially with a small Mallory 150 bypass, and the Miflex a little more relaxed, spacious, and harmonically complex...but both really good to me. Long time ago, but I was impressed how they were similar variations in shades of what I like in nice caps. Still the Miflex stayed in for me.

The first pic I was exploring balanced outputs, a 1.5 Superior, 0.33 Miflex Copper (oil on one side of the balanced signal, and foil the other), and two more Miflex oils, 0.047, and 0.022 bypassed by a Mallory 150 0.0022...a conglomerate value ±1.9. I liked it, but finally found the value a little high for the balances I need across recordings styles... a little too balanced toward full, slow and bassy for me in this particular use and system/room. Also, though after the powerful signal from the four tube/cap paths it took some time to really hear the milder two paths out, I ended up preferring the latter.





After lots of caps and combinations, I was pretty well settled with the following, a Mundorf Aluminum Oil Evo 1.5, also an OK base cap, but remembering them as more lively and spacious than the Superiors. With this DAC tending toward density and a little slowish warm fullness (a little overly euphonic for me) I thought the Mundorf could be a better base and it was in my setting. This Mundorf is pretty good at complexity and speed, though a little lean on its own, and less rich than I like. So I warmed them up with very clear, but also richer, denser and smoother 0.1 Jenson copper oils, and on top of them, a harmonically rich Miflex Oil 0.022 with a 0.022 Mallory 150 to help the very fine detail complexity and immediacy.

After a while, the DAC still a little slow and warm for me, I decided to try, popular with this DAC, Duelund bypasses, my fav of those the tinned coppers having more lively and textured sound than the others. Still I tend not to love these Duelund bypasses, sounding a little too made, and not born... doing all the right stuff if looked at intellectually, but somehow not quite natural to me. But in this case, it was pretty good, the powerful and smooth clarity of the Duelund, with the help of other bypasses to bring out more complexity... the combination acted like a well balanced super tweeter, increasing the presence of space and immediacy top to bottom, a tricky balance with cap combinations for me, pulling space and leading edges down into the bass without over-concentrating detail upper-mids up:





The next cap trial pic was this morning after upgrading some of the stock Mogami cables in my 2010 Zstage (serial #002), with cables I made of UPOCC silver and UPOCC silver-gold wires with oversized pure copper shields, and those having settled for a few days. At the same time, I added the Zstage in with my DAC, CSP3+, and ZRock2+ on a 4 outlet box I made with a slow blow 3 amp Swiss Digital Fuse Box in front of all four. On top of the cables, the Zstage fuse replaced with a copper slug, even with two, to me, decent, but not great Mogamis still in there, the Zstage became notably faster, denser, more complex... pretty much more of all it was. This made the Duelund cap start to show the traits I do not prefer... a little too focussed, powerful, and a little rolled off... and the Zstage improvements in speed and resolution likely making the Duelund unnecessary. Also with the Zstage clarity and speed punched up some, I thought it might carry and resolve the fuller/denser sound from a little higher value output caps. But, for me, it ended up a little too bass balanced and a little too oily... close, but a little too full and slow especially lower down. This set was a 1.5 Mundorf, 0.33 Miflex oil, 0.022 Miflex oil, and 0.0022 Mallory.





Now, liking the rich complexity the Miflex oils add to this very particular sound (if not overvalued, thickening the sound too much and masking space and harmonic complexity), I am using 1.5 Mundorf Aluminum EVO Oil, 0.1 Miflex Copper Oil which already had a 0.001 Mallory on it, and 0.022 Miflex Copper Oil with a 0.002 Mallory 150. We'll see how this settles across recordings, but the balances of many balances are getting really good on first impressions. Still, once close, I always need time to tune in changes, so can't say yet, but on the last full bodied solo piano recording, it was beautiful, revealing and balancing all the things I listen for... to a point where the music first caught me in awe, then captivated me, overwhelming tuning analysis.





I will likely bypass some of the big power supply caps next to further speed it up, and I too am looking at Wimas in this DAC. I can't remember, but I think it was in my Torii 3, one of the 1st batch Steve made, and I think he was using Wimas for coupling caps??? I ended up back then with Jupiter Coppers for quite a while, then preferring the clearer, less full Jupiter HTs in my setting. I thought the Wimas were decent, but a little plastic sounding by comparison, so I can imagine changing at least some them in this DAC will be a good move!

Hey RPS. You are surely welcome. I was leading up to putting similar on the Musical Paradise DAC thread started by Gilf, but my past explorations fitting so closely with your questions, and my new DAC likely based in part on Lampizator design and concept too, I thought I should start writing here in hopes my experiences might help you get where you want to go with more ease.

Importantly, I did not build this DAC. Musical Paradise is a company that I believe Garry Huang created. He is in Canada, and has his gear built in China. Check out his site, and the few discussions and videos out there on his DACs. I think you will like them, his really well thought through and evolving modular designs appealing in design considerations, modifiability, and costs!

I have built a few simple things, but more, I have explored modifying a lot... progressively, part by part much of the time, and if it did not help in balanced ways, try another. Over time, using tech considerations, but mostly by sound, this taught me a lot. Finally I had basically rebuilt my already pretty amazing point-to-point Decware things, found ways to make great cables, learned to tune my speakers, and have explored bringing a number of circuit board based components into more complete and musical levels. A gradual adventure over lots of years that now mostly keeps me from buying many new things, and makes used things with "good bones" fun projects. Everything tuned to a pretty high level, and few weak links, pretty nice pieces I do buy have all needed to be notably refined so far in order for them to fit into this complex. I love finding new levels of musical immersion and the beautiful complexes of the paths of discovery to get there.

I look forward to your further explorations with your new DAC, and will be glad to look over your lists and offer opinions if I can!

Will,

Here are a few intersting items that I am prepared to buy now if you think these would be a good choice to experiment with. These are claimed to be some of the best tone caps ever produced ? *(Sprauge Vitamin Q)

At these prices, I figuire they are worth a shot.

So please examine these and let me know if I am wasting money on these.

I have a feeling that they may be beneficial.











Or these old stock Russian PIO military capacitors.









Let me know what you think. If you think these are a good choice, then I shall order them.


Thanks.

I ordered this set of matched Amperex 6dj8 tubes for my DAC today. These tubes should sweeten the sound a bit.

Just for information to show the design of my DAC tube stage, here is the schematic for one channel shown.

This is what HIFIcollective sells the AudioNote  3.3uf copper foil in oil caps for:





Not a bad price for this quality of capacitor.

JB.

I have found power to be really important too, feeding the gear, and power supplies. It started pretty good for clarity here, but I had variable voltage from ±119-123 over periods, and that was influential enough with my Decware tube sound that adjusting the system became like chasing a ghost. Higher voltage, a more dense, dark and full sound, and lower, leaner, more open, more complex. That is why I finally got a used PSAudio P5, good at regulating voltage and so many liking "it's sound." I was not one of the latter, a stickler, but finding it veiled, slowish, and colored, finally having to make a special fast and clean power cord, upgrade receptacles, and find the just so feet for the beast, some dulling the sound and some tightening and opening it more. It was finally a break through in my system development to be able to have stable voltage adjustment to tune the system sound, but also phase, the incremental phase adjustment in the P5 a pretty useful tuner for balancing spaciousness versus density to tastes. It is still a touch veiled to me, but relatively fast and transparent, and the advantages outweigh.

Some of my first adjustments inside electronic gear were when I started bypassing the power supplies of my CSP3 and MKIV Torii. It was shocking how much the cap sound effect on the whole was so similar with power supply bypasses compared to the same cap type in the signal path. It took years, but after a while it got sort of normal, basically not differentiating the power supply from the signal path when doing modifications. Makes sense having so much ability to change things up with rectifiers and transformers, but it is the same with wires, resistors, and caps... Which is signal and which is power? Seems they are one finally! Anyway, it is clear from my experience how important the wall power and power supply are to the sound, influencing for better or worse, everything beyond.


I have thought similarly about foot material as you illustrate with metal colors, feet tending to sound like what they are made of, and design making the materials used better or worse for music. Relative to wires, I do hear notable differences from various metals, weight/gauges and plating, and I like to use most all of them in gear, cables, and receptacles. On plated AC ends and receptacles, I work to find ones with pretty pure copper base metal and pure plating, and for ICs, I think most all I use have different flavors of pure silver for the connections except a few with rhodium plate on good copper. Hearing pretty big differences early on with better quality, higher purity wires, I have not explored lesser wires much, those mostly showing up from replacing wires in gear with more resolving and faster ones.

For raw copper and silver wires, I found soft annealed 999 can really be quite good, and UPOCC better, to me, the most resolving, liquid and sweet. Within this, I have tried a bunch of silver wires, all high purity, some harder annealed, some soft, some Ohno cast continuous... and even different UPOCC silvers made to different standards sound different, not to mention dielectric, shield proximity, and gauge, all I think having a pretty notable influences. I think I get the negative silver bias, some of these wires, like Jupiter, being on the hardish side for me, and some plated silver wires I have heard hard sounding, but with nicer materials and processes for sound, I would call the silver I use clarifying and fast, and not sharp or edgy.

I like blends though ultimately. I do use Milspec silver on copper, blending smaller gauges to make up the end gauge for some power cables I make, and with good design, they can be really good, but suspect those wires could be too rigid sounding for ICs and probably speaker cables too. The ICs and speaker cables I make are all blends of un-plated wires. The speaker cables have NOS WE tinned copper, and pure soft annealed silver and copper in air. And in ICs I usually mix UPOCC silver/gold with a thinner silver wire to liven it up on the signal side, a little UPOCC copper mixed with UPOCC silver on the return side ... all by sound.


I have played a fair bit with caps, resistors, wires and tubes, but with the great mysteries of how electrons work with the many things that make up power, components, cables, speakers... As things get more resolved and well balanced especially, I am perpetually amazed at how literally every thing effects all else, presenting the subtleties of energetic interactions with so many materials and designs... each part and wire its own design and materials, it gets vast fast. Beyond ever developing perception and discernment skills, to me this helps explain the great challenges of refining all the many balances together... Daily I am shown how much more there is to learn. So I do not feel like a cap master at all, more an early explorer.


Still in the learning stages of this DAC, I don't want to imply I have gotten "there," or sorted it out enough to feel fully confident in recommending it.... But I am always reticent about recommendations, so many variables in all systems. And I am going for pretty demanding sound characteristics here, needing the system to make most everything beautiful and resolved and fast across recordings, so until I have explored most aspects of a new piece of gear, I am slow to settle into "knowing" it enough to talk articulately about it.

With this DAC I could always get compelling sound, even new, but to pull really good sound from most recordings was less easy until the DAC got more fully burnt in, lack of burnin reflected strongly in the quite notable influences from adjusting tubes and caps, and making finding preferences with so many tube and cap possibilities trickier. So finally approaching a sound I am after across most recordings is a relief. I have not AB'd my longtime reference DAC yet, but as this one continues to refine, and I continue to adjust it, and to it, it is getting really good in this setting... likely new territory that I am already getting used to having been playing it so much as I learn it over a few months. More to come in finding the deeper balances, but it seems I am getting closer and closer to not having things stick out at me as a little off balanced or slow, while the potential tube and cap richness from the output stage wakes up with more refinement of fine detail complexity and speed... creating a nice harmonic sweetening that sounds like music, subtly euphonic, but not overly affected in euphonic qualities, rich complexity that is still lively... pretty real sounding to me.

Complicating the analysis though, these are things I have been working to bring out of all my gear, so it is not all the DAC. But the process does imply that this DAC is coming up to the rest and adding its own beauty. Right now, four tuning tools between my DAC and amp, all are modified toward pretty much the same resolution of very fine detail, and speed, spectral and dynamic balances: the DAC out, to a ZRock2+, to a ZStage+, to a box that adjusts baffle step for speakers and introduces some pretty nice harmonics as a choice, in my case, if used, barely on but a pretty nice touch, to a CSP3+, then the amp. And before that, on the digital side my older Mac Mini with a super trimmed OS for music, Amarra player software, an external drive on the firewire buss, so separate from the USB, feeding a Singxer SU1+ USB bridge, then 12S into the DAC, and all HDMI type cables I have tried sound different. So lots supporting the DAC.

This morning, I was getting a really quiet fuzzy sound, trouble shooting illustrating how much trouble this many stages can be. It turned out to be the rectifier in the CSP3, the first I have had fail in many years, and a bummer, an old Telefunken RGN 1064. But, 1st check in the process, the DAC new, I ran it straight to the amp, and all good. Crosschecking DAC/amp only sound without pre stages was something I had done when I was doing lots of mods regularly in my gear. I was getting ready to do this with this new DAC to check that I was staying on track in sound balances as I adjust the DAC, and this forced it.

The DAC is good on its own, but also made me realize just how influential my pre stages have become for my sound needs. I knew I was dependent on quality gain tuning, each pre stage tuned similarly for resolution, speeds and musicality I need, but also, each with their own special influences, making the whole more complex and rich. For me, this once again blows old-school "purist" theory. There is some sense of purity without, but another sense of purity with all this tuned up gear. Funny, testing this morning, I went to adjust the R/L pots on the CSP3+, but no CSP3 in the blend, I could not compensate for minor tube differences like I often do.

For me, setting optimal gain levels for each component's best sound, the gain on the ZRock is usually just above unity, but the CSP and Zstage have been on the higher voltage side, and each adding a bit to the next, I have a pretty strong signal going into the amp, when not over or under done, enhancing spacious resolution, dynamics, density, lucidity, and weight. Taking them all out of the blend, as I am listening now, it is a great sound, similar everything, but it took turning up the amp a fair bit. It is a relief, that the DAC tuning is on track, this no-pre stage sound close on various recordings styles. But the signal shows less voltage and tubes, so all things are more relaxed and a little less dynamic and smooth, but still fast, resolved, and musical with good harmonics. Tempting with this DAC having what can be a pretty transparent tube output, but on the whole, I still prefer it with all those stages, set just so, the whole bigger, deeper, smoother, more lucid and dynamic, while being more tunable  in all things, including soundstage... But again, I have done a fair bit to optimize power, wires, caps, resistors, connectors, etc for each pre stage, as well as all the cables, tube combinations..... with cleaner parts and wires we can get these days, and careful tuning, I find a relatively "pure" sound is possible with a lot of components working together to get it.

That said, I was a little worried about adding yet another tube stage with this DAC, but having listened to it alone, I think it is getting good in resolving and musical ways, and the output stage is clearly a big part of its thoughtful design and sound. Once fully tuned, I think I could probably love both ways, with pre stages, without, or perhaps with less of them... we'll see.

I love it how a new piece, especially one this tunable, and therefore potentially challenging for me, can make me look at and adjust the others, bringing up the balances of the whole.

RPS... I am thinking on those many things you have put up, will answer as best I can soon.

On that note, the feedback here is really stepping up into very interesting territory. Just within the last couple of days, this thread has provided extremely valuable information in regards to electronic "fine tuning". If someone really reads this data closely, and actually "understands" the true depth of it, then the reader should feel rewarded with priceless knowledge, that stemming from vast experimentation which Will has reflected upon from his path of observation.

I have to say Will, you are truly an inspiration to those who have so many questions, and want to know what you have learned over the years.  I doubt that several semesters of electronic courses would offer anything close to the important facts which you have revealed in the last few posts. They simply do not go that deep into things. I doubt those instructors have that degree of experience and knowledge anyway.


I understand your hesitation in regards to offering advice to other's who may want to emulate your own findings. It really is impossible to know the outcome of something without actually having first hand experience with any certain project.  What is right for your DAC, is not necessarily the thing that works best in my DAC, or any other design for that matter. So when the smoke clears, we are left standing with the realization that each of our journey's must be explored independently for best results.

I look at it this way, everyone has their own "ideal" situation where they have goals going in directions that are tangent to another's goals.  When a person finds that perfect sound in their mind, someone else may find that "sound" nowhere close to what they find perfect. So I guess it all goes back to that basic understanding. We all have our preferences, and we must find that which pleases us most. Things just are not that simple in life. Audio is no exception.

I realize that the only way for me to find my "perfect" level of acceptance, is to put the time and effort it requires into this if I really want to find the best solution. I simply ask about components and their general worthiness based upon actual experimentation. I would never expect you or anyone else to give me the bottom line as to what is best in my situation.

Everything we do in our audio systems is unique from one listener to another. The room acoustical factor alone plays a significant part of that outcome. Even if you and I had the exact same DAC, or amplifier for that matter, we would each have completely different outcomes as to how we hear our systems by comparison. No two rooms are the same, not even close. That holds true to the sound created within these vastly different environments.

What I have learned from your experiences is something that has re-aligned my thought process when it comes to audio circuits. Not that I didn't understand the overall perspective of your findings, but that I never really put that much thought into such in-depth exploration, especially when it comes to capacitors, and the role of delicate frequency balance which they become tools for fine tuning. You certainly have taken this approach much further than anything I have seen in the past.  Most guys just buy the most expensive cap on the market, throw it in expecting it to be the "end all" of sonic improvement and balance. We can see that this is hardly the case. Too bad it isn't that easy.

Sometimes another person has to open the door for you to find the beginning of your path.  I would say that you have opened a very big door here, one that leads to a library of technical information which we all can benefit from.

I already feel that you helped me to see through this with a clearer perspective with this DAC design, and where the best upgrades will prove to be influential by a large margin. I am a bit more confident now within my preparedness to make the right choice, or at least be prepared to correct for any substandard choices.

You know, this experimentation gives purpose and a great deal of satisfaction to a guy who is retired and now has some time on his hands to do something more rewarding in life. The point is not to find the perfect solution and be done with it. This provides a basis for involvement which keeps us moving on day to day with something exciting and involving to pass the time in a collective manner. Books are written, books are read. That provides a reciprocal realm where we continuously learn from each other. When we stop learning, we stop living with a purpose. One should never let a day go by without some form of experience which propagates knowledge.


I look forward to your feedback upon the items I am considering. Just know that I realize this is only the beginning phase of my own experimentation. You have to start somewhere. It only gets better from there.

I placed an order for the old stock Sprauge PIO tone capacitors. I bought 8 total of the 0.10 caps for initial bypassing. I believe these should give a fluid, more revealing higher end to the sound. I guess I will find out.


I may order a few more of these in lower values to explore the differances.

I am still making a decision on the main 3.3uf caps. Just as in your case, what if I find that the 3.3uf rating is not even the most ideal? It may be better for me to drop down to a 2.7uf cap, and fill in the remaining value with a series of specialty tuned caps of different composition to fine tune that overall balance. I certainly am not going to know this outcome without hearing it. If it doesn't work, try something else. I accept that finding that balance is not going to happen overnight, but it will come with perseverance and determination.

And yes, after the output stage is where I want it, then comes the power supply! No wonder high end audio components are so expensive, even when DIY.  The cost is always derivative of research and development.

Not sure about how these old soviet capacitors might sound. Have you ever had experience with them? They are very cheap to buy, and in bulk form.  I am considering trying these with the four 0.22 uf cap upgrades. These are PIO types with good tolerance ratings. For a few dollars each, if they don't find a home here, then no great loss, at least I tried them. They have to be better than the WIMA caps installed now.


What I don't like about the sound of this DAC now is the brightness factor. I am sure that the Chinese 6n11 tubes have something to do with that signature. Those low grade Solen caps are not helping much.  Soon, these will be upgraded to something that should be in this DAC.

As for now, I have made the first major upgrade with the new toroid heavy duty transformer for the tube output stage. I should be receiving the larger Rubycon caps for increasing the signal strength of the Toslink input. That should make a large difference. I should recieve the old stock (but unused) matched set of Amperex 6dj8 tubes made back in 1980, by next monday or so.  Those will really be a game changer in this DAC over what I hear now.

So upgrades are in process. It is one step at a time as you know. Hopefully I will always take the right steps forward.

I will make a decision on the main caps very soon. Once that I do, these will be ordered. Based upon what you have tried, and what you gained from that configuration in the final setting, I am taking the Mundorf SUPREME EVO Silver Gold Oil caps into consideration for the two 3.3uf caps, or spend the money on good quality copper foil in oil caps, followed by the progression of various bypass caps to find the right sound.  

When it is all said and done, I am sure I will have gone down the path of trial and error, only to find that my initial choice was not the final one. That really does become the basis of the game.

I will give some impressions of these upgrades as I make these upgrades with enough careful listening to follow.

This is going to take some time. I need to get ample burn-in time on the DAC before I can really hear the benefits. My new speaker drivers could use a bit more burn in time as well. They had use before, but not enough to call them well seasoned.  There are so many factors to consider when making these critical evaluations.

Again, thank you Will for the continued information and reflections upon your experiments. I am paying close attention.

Dominick, same goes to you. I appreciate your input here as well. Every bit helps. This is why it takes a team to win the game. One player won't do it own their own.

That data link concerning capacitors will be interesting to read. I will go over that when I get some time. I can see where that is useful for making decisions.  Thanks for posting that.

Alright, I shall return later and continue this. I have a few things to do in the meantime.

RPS,

I have been temped by trying Spragues too, but have not. The "tone caps" I tried from Jupiter and a few other popular ones I can't recall were interesting, but not great for me. They seem to often be appreciated by guitar players wanting to change the sound with "tone," where those I tried as small bypasses I tired were musical in ways, but not my thing, preferring less coloration and slowness. Can't say about the Vitamin-Qs though so look forward to your impressions.

I have not tried the green K42Y-2 caps, but have used some K40Y-9s... wondering if they are family, the 42s maybe lower value and lower voltage??? don't know. Also have not tried the K-75s. It has been a really long time ago since I used K40Ys so not clear, but my audio memory seems to be OK most of the time anyway, so I will give it a go. New to cap play I thought they were nice, but not truly great for me. I think they were the first replacement for the Wima coupling caps in my Torii 3, and I preferred them, a little warmer, more complete and musical as I recall...smooth with the PIO, but if memory serves, reasonably well resolved too. But subtle sounding caps, not in your face. And my needs for clear resolution in space have evolved, so not sure what I would think of them now. They also may have been the first bypass caps I tried on my HR-1 tweeter caps, liking them there too. But it could have been mostly that a decent bypass helped, and I ended up finding others I liked better there, like in the amp, moving on from them into more lively, while still being musically sweet caps. That was a different Will and a different system though...

Russian caps I have tried were 0.1 down to 0.01, I think including PIO, silver mica, a few teflon variations (including some K72Ns like you showed). Overall I think they are good value caps, but most have not stayed in here. Too long ago to recall really specific sound details... But what comes to mind ... the PIOs were a little over-damped for me, maybe a little slow and slightly masked... Teflons were variable, the barrel types I recall as resolving and clear, but on the cool side... and vague in mind, but the heavier body ones, somehow reflected that heavy body, being a little more dense??? How are those for qualified memories!!! I am pretty sure I still have some .01 silver micas, and maybe some .022 barrel shaped teflons in the Torii IV power supply, for the latter, notable cleanness sometimes quite useful for a power supply balancing cap. A quick perusal of ebay, it looks like the barrel types have gotten more expensive.

I can try to listen to a few of these different caps in the next week or so if that would help. I think I have some with a least some burnin on them.


Speaking of burnin. If you are like me, and get captivated by cap exploration or upgrading, I really like the FryBaby 2 or 3. Lots of audio heads poo poo these things, but I have found it invaluable with all my cap and resistor experiments especially. I set up loops of them to burn in a bunch of different caps and resistors of various values at once usually, and the algorithm does not get them perfectly burned in, but can take care of the most difficult parts. Then I find generally that most caps only need 50 or so hours, in the gear, and with music, to get close to right, even with some pretty long burnin caps.


Might be a different batch, but the Mallory you pictured does not look like the same printing as mine of the same value, and I have been ordering them for quite a few years and seen subtle variations. Also partsconnexion and hificollective have them for not a lot more money. Of all the very low value bypass caps I have tried in electronics, they are the most universally good at not being in the face, but tuning up speed and resolution with pretty neutral, open and musical complexity, and working pretty well with most (if not all) of the caps I prefer. This is in part because they are effective, but not real powerful in their sound, like especially Duelund bypasses are, the Duelunds good if you like those sounds, but demanding in a resolving system if not quite right for your needs...

For the Mallory 150s, over 0.01, like .022s and up have too much self-sound for me. If you order some to play with, I would recommend getting some 0.001, 0.0022, 0.0033, 0.0047, and 0.01s. They all sound different and sometimes I use one, but sometimes two (or even three a few times)... like a 0.0047 or 0.1 followed by a 0.002, or 0.001. The low cost makes them fun to play with.


I may be missing something, and I can't see them clearly, but I can't recall seeing Amperex caps with glass shape and getters like those you ordered, the sort of bowl/flying saucer shaped getters suspended from both sides seeming perhaps more Russian to me. Nor do I recall seeing Amperex made in West Germany. Not that this rules out their being Amperex, but ECC88s types being a primary tube for me for years, and having looked at tubes for a while, I have not seen any like these. Hopefully they will sound great.

For a good taste of open and pretty rich complexity from Amperex ECC88s, Bugle Boys from the early 60s, with hallow getters, are sort of a classic example... and of course coming from a seller with lots of good ratings makes authenticity and quality a safer bet. Sometimes pairs come up at pretty low prices.


As I recall seems 6BQ7s are talked about sometimes as interchangeable with 6N1Ps, and sometimes with ECC88/6DJ8. Check it out, but also as I recall, I am thinking they are sort of in between 6DJ8/ECC88s and 6N1Ps electronically. In my CSP3 all of them work, but I imagine some circuits have tighter tolerances by design. I was thinking though, that if they say you can use 6N1Ps in your DAC, and ECC88s, you can probably use 6BQ7s. Those I have tried are notably more clear in general, 6N1Ps tending warmer, and ECC88s pretty variable, but generally milder and more open than E88CCs.

Don't know if you know the sites, but if you search a tube type along with data, and or, equivalent, the valve museum and radio museum site links that come up are really useful.


I have not tried Audionote signal caps in part because they are so high from known sellers. But aside from price, when I was doing a lot of resistor tests, I did try some of their also comparatively costly tantalum resistors. Though I found that tantalums were impressively solid and powerful in presentation, with dense and smooth sonic clarity, for me, in most positions, they are too dense and powerful sounding, with too much self sound... but I am a balanced harmonic complexity devotee, and a lot of folks really like them..... Still, comparing the Audionotes to the the tantalum Shinkohs I had, the Audionotes were notably too warm/full for me, making me think they are after a more colored and euphonic signature than I am...my guess anyway, to me, a signature resistor likely indicating designer preferences??? And of course my comments are based on my needs and preferences, but hopefully this helps at least to get more feel for basic sound tendencies of these things and trying to fit them into the baselines of your system and preferences.


In my cap drawers and gear, the most you will see are Miflex copper oils and Miflex coppers, neither ultimate on their own to me, but the closest I have found overall, and at least in their lower value caps, good economic value. They are my go to caps, often used together, especially in electronics, and especially with Mallory bypasses. Combined the three fill my needs best, also helping me to rule out lots of others that are really pretty nice caps, but each being a little off in balances compared to these... in combination especially. In some positions in the power or signal path, the white one's clarity is more useful, and in others the softer, more harmonically complex oils more useful, and mixing them in gear can be just right to me, offering the best of both. I also mix them at times using one as bypass and the other as base, topped with a Mallory150.

For higher value caps, some of those I have used.... 3.3 Miflex KPALs I got on sale for a really good price, so thought worth a try. These are their aluminum oils, and with a lot of burnin, and the right bypasses, they were quite nice caps on my ribbon tweeters in the HRs. But only on occasion do I use them in power supplies, and I don't use them as coupling caps. Somehow the warm/slowish damping of the oil, and how it balances with the generally clean and revealing aluminum sound do not blend impeccably for me in this particular design....both are nicely done, and both pretty good traits musically, but in this cap, I think these traits are a little too juxtaposed for me, a little lacking in integration. This makes them less easy in use...at least here and the way I perceive them... good caps, but a little challenging.

I have not gone there with big Miflex Copper Oils, being really costly and really large. But, like Dom, many swear by them. Just check the specs if you try them, as they are really big and heavy caps and take a really long time, I think especially the bigger they are, to burn in fully.

I found the old style Mundorf Supreme and Sliver Oils to have too much of the Mundorf Supreme sound, to me similar to Duelund bypasses, not in exact sound qualities, but in the sound having a contrived vibe to me, too intellectual toward ticking audiophile boxes and sounding that way to me, affectedly warm. And the silver gold old style Supremes are expensive, even for smaller bypasses, and while I think it is pretty good, I don't love Mundorf's silver gold wire sound, so I never risked them...  Alternately, the Mundorf EVOs I have tried were not mind blowing, but were pretty nice with nice bypasses, like in my DAC right now using the EVO Aluminum Oil as a base cap. To me, the EVOs I have are more transparent and lively, less obviously colored, but not cold, especially with nice bypasses.

My HR-1s are not in the system now, but I was using the Supreme Evo Oils in my HR-1 mid driver crossover, and liked it... Not an ideal test place for sussing out subtle sound qualities, but I recall it as pleasantly bigger sounding than the normal EVO aluminum oils, and with that, solidly dynamic and smooth, while remaining open and revealing in pretty balanced ways, and being nicely resolving. But of course, they were carefully bypassed! The Evos are smaller too, easier to fit.

VHaudio Odams I tried are really nice sounding small body caps too, like I said earlier, the only ones I tried being smallish .094 coupling caps, again, carefully bypassed, but having good balances for me, slightly warm, rich, smooth, lively and dynamic. At this point a 2.2 Odam is a fav recommendation from the designer of my DAC. Though more costly, being smaller and musical, it may be worth consideration ultimately. I am waiting to see after more burnin if I will want to stay with a 1.5uF base cap in my DAC, or go to a 2.2, then I will probably buy a pair of Odams to try. So far, it seems 1.5uF is where I will end up in this DAC and this room, but things are still changing.

Jantzen Alumen-Zs are really revealing while being a touch warm and nicely smooth, at least used on my HR-1 ribbon tweeters. But to me, the 3.3 is a little rolled off and flattish without bypasses. With a Miflex Copper Oil 0.33 to bring up the value to where it seemed best, and to richen them up, and then some bypassing, I found them to be really nice. They are only 100V I think though, but not knowing what voltage you can use, I thought I would mention them.


Which reminds me...Especially before getting to know a lot of caps, I think it can often be easier to get great sound from cap blends starting with well balanced, but a slightly overly clear/open base cap, providing a basis of speed and space to warm up and build complexity on with warmer and complex bypass caps.

Definitely more... but enough for now, I hope this helps some.

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Hi Will….it’s good to hear from you as well!  Yes my capacitor exploration has truly paid off. It has really shown me how the sum of its parts is greater than its whole.  

Sounds like I may be on the right track.  It is good to have another "upgrade specialist" (how's that for finding the correct title?) actually take the time to review and verify the overall projection of an idea.

See what you did Will, you turned me into an upgrade maniac!





Naw, I was heading in that direction all by myself. You just cheered me on. Without your help, I might have gone in the wrong direction.


Back to the drawing board. After much research today trying to find the best solution I can feel confident with for my base caps, I am excited at what I found, which I believe will be ideal for my situation.  I recalled you mentioning the V cap ODAM series.  After reading about the technology, and the glowing reviews about these caps, I believe I have a winner here, especially since the price fits within my budget. I would try them anyway, regardless of the price.

You know everything is subject to change, but I have a really good feeling about these ODAM caps as my base. These I expect to offer the best cap performance for the price which I have found yet. (subject to my listening evaluation of course)   Something tells me that I will be happy with these.

Along with my original old stock paper in oil Vitamin Q caps in different variations, I strongly believe that I can come up with a very impressive combination using these capacitors together. I guess we shall see once the experiments begin.

I have to wait until next month to order any more caps due to the fact that I have a huge payment to Decware to make very soon. The rate of progress for the Zrock3 order is moving rapidly now. I have a feeling that mine will be on the bench within two weeks, maybe sooner.

I want so badly to order these ODAM caps right now, but I have to wait.

Like you suggested, I should give it some time and let each upgrade breath a bit so that I can tell what the individual upgrades are doing to the sound.  Since I already have some seasoned 1 percent 2.7 MKP caps on hand, I might as well try them out as you suggested, then try various combinations of the PIO caps for bypassing. I know this takes time, but I am like a kid waiting for a present.  I just want it all now...but I have to be patient.

I am thinking that the 2.7 caps will definitely sound better than the Solen 3.3 caps. With the Vitamin Q PIO enhancement, that will go a long ways. And this gives me several weeks to live with it as I get familiar with the new sound signature. As you said, I may just like it.

I am quite sure that stepping up to the Vcap ODAM's will take things up to audiophile grade territory.  Just have to fine tune the combination until I get that favored "curve".

Anyway, here is what I want to buy for my base caps to replace the current 3.3 Solen's.











These caps are highly praised and very budget priced. I really think this is a wise choice for the final upgrade. I say "final" loosely, but you get the drift.


As for those tubes I bought. I knew that sounded risky, but I took that chance. I will find out next week if they are any good or not. I will be sure to let you know. I will be trying other tubes as well as time goes on.

My Rubycon caps should arrive tomorrow. If so, I will be upgrading the Toslink capacitor to get that upgrade out of the way.  That will be upgrade number two.

I am pondering the swap from the 3.3 Solen's this weekend, to the Dayton 2.7 caps just to see what happens while I have my soldering station out. That could have an interesting outcome.


Of course, once I feel good about the DAC, you know where this is going next.

I have thought about upgrading the caps within the ToriiMk3 for quite awhile now. Perhaps it is time to see what I can do with that.  That is going to be a very costly endeavor to say the least. These new design Vcap ODAMS just might be the ticket for that amplifier. Perhaps, but it does seem like a good choice.


Upgrade fever has me very focused upon the possibilities!