will
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Yes, I know, here I go again, but I hope this might be useful for some.
From Dan: "Actually I’m now using the ZRock, my Zbit is coming next week. As soon as put CSP3 after Zrock I noticed right away an improvement in SQ. That is why I’m wondering if additional ZBit is an overkill."
So it sounds like you have a CSP3 and ZRock in place and like them, the question being whether using a ZBIt will further improve your sound (or not).
More than the very relative nature of transparency and "purity" depending on all that makes the system and room, I think the question with nice gain components like these is more, does it improve the signal quality and system versatility without notable sacrifices. In my system, any component added will be at some cost to signal "transparency." But with a revealing system/room, transparent and neutral cables, feet... here, the benefits outweigh minor losses.
Like you with the ZRock and CSP3, both with a fair number of parts and designed to intentionally shape the signal in their own ways, transparency losses are generally not what most notice... more the beauty these things can bring to the signal... hopefully set up and tubed well enough to make the signal more musical and awake in a given room.
Yet like Lon said, since getting his WE300B, he prefers the sound without a Decware preamp in front of it, though he still uses other gain stages for signal tuning. This may be different for you in your room and system, but by Lon liking the sound better without these pres, the implication to me is that the ways his CSP3 and ZTPre effected the signal were not beneficial, or fully "transparent," the other side of the question and story... a really nice component not improving the sound in Lon's particular setting, and for his tastes. So a potentially important consideration depending on all else.
Right now I am using a ZBIT+>ZRock2+>CSP3+ between my very resolving front end setup and very resolving amp. The +'s indicate they are all seriously modified to musically increase transparency, resolution, complex speeds, fine detail and space, etc... With nice balances throughout, allowing the system to be more complete and captivating.
It was/is about refinement of all the good stuff already there with my mostly Decware setup (during most of my modification years), progressively resolving more and more, but still having the nice baselines Steve and Bob originally created. And the more that was musically revealed, the more easily areas that could benefit from more refinement showed. So refinement led to refinement, and once one component or cable, or the speakers resolved and revealed more, the others needed similar refinements to bring their musicality up to match. Parts and wires that are known to be good, and starting with really nice designs and quality, then it is mostly a matter of finding the parts and wires that are synergistic with the component design toward making it more musically resolving...That for me led to hundreds of tests over time, but when the synergy happened, improvements were often beyond the sum of the parts, and this process after a few years resulted in preferred parts and wires, making the next steps easier.
Over lots of years now, everything in the system has been tested and reevaluated based on the ever renewed matrix, one improvement leading to more. With refinement in resolution and speed came more complex detail and space, more immediacy, faster and more natural and complex dynamics, and balanced across the range, tighter more impactful bass, richer and more complex textures and decays throughout, and clearer more endless highs with fine detail complexity resolving hardness into musical realness....
Taking me back to "transparency" and "purism." The story above is to illustrate one baseline for adding things, a baseline that has been worked over from power, to source, to room, not only to solve weak links, but also to awaken already beautifully musical designs into more magical ones. And the more a system is refined in this way, the purer/more transparent the whole is, making it easier to add equally good components (and associated cables) without notable sacrifices in purity...
But no matter how deeply refined a setup is, with a Decware baseline (especially with A mods), we know we have a really good start, and the main thing then to me is that we do not have things that hobble our sound without knowing it, bringing everything else down with it. And the more of these there are, the more loss of transparency adding something of equal quality might incur.
Especially at the beginning, if our power does not fully support resolution and speed with spectral balance, these issues will read through everything else. Equally, if our front end can't pull full musical resolution and speeds musically, that will make the rest of the components, cables, speakers, and room that follow less capable of producing the beauty... If it is not there at the start, it is not there at all. Or the speakers could be weak links, or cables.... feet.... If we are not pulling musical resolution and balances everywhere, and with relative equal sonic quality, the whole suffers in the senses of purity and transparency, and the ability to seamlessly add more parts for tuning the signal is also effected. Like improvements in musical resolution are progressive, so too are impediments.
So I think theoretical "purity" is a moving target depending entirely on how pure each component or cable or whatever are to begin with... And equally importantly, how transparent and pure the system and room is as a whole.
This is part of why going with a number of Steve's designs and cables together can be a good start, because they are creatively designed to fulfill Steve's sonic needs, and they are treated with similar care and attention for their ultimate sound. So though always evolving, all are made with his best ideas and parts preferences to meet his objectives. This causes them to naturally be compatible as family, each fitting into a baseline of the "purist" design Steve feels is "right," and something that can be built on with synergy. And, not for all, but for most, especially in system/rooms that are mostly set up for resolution and speed within realistic and complete spectral balances (without a lot of diversion from compensation), this stuff is transparent enough to add gain stages and hear the beauty they were designed to give more than potential sacrifices, especially with care with tubes, cables, platforms, feet.....
Looked at from another angle, in my case, my signal continues to grow musically "purer," creating a new baseline from which to judge transparency and purity. And from this new baseline, stock things I tend to have, including Decware, need to be tuned up to fit in. Here, adding another component, even with A-mods, is a hit on resolution, speed, transparency that I can't tolerate without refining that component to match the rest. But once tuned to match, each component a little more awake, making the whole more awake, it is beautiful. And interestingly, looking at musical transparency, at this point, I feel sure my ZBIT/ZRock/CSP3 together are more ultimately transparent and revealing of more levels of complexity than the either the stock CSP3 or ZRock2 were alone.
This is not to dis these components, many of which I enjoyed for years without serious modifications. It is more about pointing to the relativity of "transparency" and "purity," and to how important it is to have all parts support the whole without sacrifices as much as possible.
For relatively pure musical system synergy, refinements in resolution and speed are the biggest parts of it, so much of all the other good stuff rising out of these. And supporting this, to me, it is easier if nothing is very far into "compensation." If each choice leads to musically resolving signal improvements within a relatively neutral frame, the consistency of this grouping can have a powerful synergistic effect, while being less confusing than if a system is made up of a progression of compensations.
As an example, if I had tuned any one of my system components to be dark and slow as a compensation, it might have felt good at the time, but would not have complimented the ultimate goal of refined neutrality that is needed to pull the most of available resolution and speeds while refining all complex balances together. My system, getting better and better all the time, I use relative neutrality as a safeguard in modifications, but also as a means to keep things optimal as more improvements come along.
Finally, with each system part having relatively equal qualities, and each being nicely balanced and transparent, the qualities Steve's innovative gain stage additions bring to the system so far outweigh the minor hit to transparency. I can hear a little more pure transparency when I pull any stage out, and really like that less "massaged" sound. But I tend to fall back to all three, adding complexity and tune-ability toward a sound I overall prefer, and importantly for me, one that is more easily tuned to make different recording mix qualities sound better. Each of these stages offer their own character traits that I like a lot once tubes and cables are sorted. And by mixing and matching those individual qualities to each together, when right, something pretty beautiful can happen....
And once tuned together, I really don't think of this as four components individually (including the attenuator on the amp allowing for more gain tuning), more four components as one... each contributing its own special traits to the whole. Then changing any tube, or gain level, I hear the change in the component, but ultimately it is part of the whole.
For example, you might love the tube grouping you are using in the CSP3. Then trying a more powerful tube in the ZRock that makes the sound a little bold and intense, but otherwise has compelling traits.... you might find that a slightly milder input tube in the CSP3, or rectifier, or the power tubes, tone things back to where the overstated ZRock tube is beautiful. Alternately, by adjusting the gains down a little in the ZBIT, ZRock, or CSP3, a mildly overstated tube might possibly come into balance in the whole.
Anyway, I too am big into gain tuning, and all in all, I think I can say that tuning the gains together optimally, balancing the balances from different gain stages to sing best together... that alone can be a really powerful tool... perhaps more powerful than another component, or component upgrade.
I find gain tuning not only can enhance signal qualities, but can refine the system and room into more ultimate balances, balances that can show more of what is there in recordings musically. With careful attention to all balances, including as little as possible overt coloration with often associated smearing or masking (like muddled bass leaking upwards)...
From using a group of compatible gain stages, I can refine musical information with more natural complexity, using the special qualities of each together to optimize bass and weight, dynamics, density, clarity, fine detail in space, lucidity...
This can be done with just one gain stage, "gain riding" and balancing its gain qualities with an integrated tube amp's ... like your ZMA and say your CSP3. Or with two, or with three, like you will have if you stay with the ZBIT. Then, as long as they are set up to avoid off-balancing the system/room in any notable ways, there is potential for some pretty real beauty.
My guess is that you will probably enjoy the ZBIT in your blend. And relative to your concerns, the way I hear them, the ZBIT is likely the most transparent of the three, so a "safer" addition, and it will add some nice potential for tuning in the magic by carefully increasing source voltage to enhance what the ZRock or CSP3 are working on.... increasing musical complexity.
Finally, a caveat in my experience. Considering Dom's thought about running the ZBIT full power bringing graininess, I never go there, but sort of remember the very top of the ZBIT range being too intense and off feeling to me too..... But this reminded me of similar and perhaps related things I have experienced with multiple stages between source and amp. I don't know the technical details on impedances and those effects, but in my system, the more gain stages I have between the source and amp, the easier it is to overdue the signal somewhere along the line and create distortions.
Each of these gain adjusters (and the ZStage) will give more clarity and dynamic hit at higher gain settings. And if each is set to notably enhance dynamics, density, body, lucidity... together the adjustments to signal power are progressive, each building on the last.
So if each gain is sort of maxed for sound preferences (not maxed on the knob), each tuned to liven up the sound while having relatively neutral spectral balances in the room, and not feeling overstated/over-saturated... Then each stage is making the signal musically stronger. With all balanced together, and at fairly high gain levels, if we turn up the first one, the ZBIT in this case, then I think it can potentially push the ZRock, or CSP3, or both, beyond there limits before the amp. Or it could be fine in the gain stages and show up in the amp.
When each gain unit is set to add signal speed and power, transients become faster and more powerful. So if on the edge of distortion with amp settings, even if the signal into the amp is not distorted per se... stronger faster transients peaks will create amp distortions at a little lower listening levels. The ZMA has enough power with many more sensitive speakers for this not to be an issue, but an interesting thing to observe if pushing things close to limits.
I hope these ever-evolving stories and ideas, based in experiences and thought, might help in seeking and discovering the big beauty!
Will
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CSP3 with Zbit and ZRock3 (Read 589 times)
