Doug, thanks for sharing your first impressions—very intriguing.

Is this for your second system or do you plan to keep one pair of speakers at the end of the day?

Those crates are massive!

There are no plans for a second system, and there is not enough space to keep two large speaker systems.  Hopefully these ZF15Ls will perform at a level that competes with the PAP Quintets, as I would like to simplify my system.  Initially I thought bi-amping was the way to go, but I find myself longing for a simpler set-up.

The ZF15Ls now have 120 hours of garage burn-in, and will be moved into the listening room tomorrow or Wednesday. Based upon others' comments on how long it takes for the Fast 15 to come into its own, some degree of patience may be needed over the next few weeks.  Looking forward to really hearing them.

Here are a few observations on day 7 with the Lii Song ZF15Ls in the main system.

The hardwood veneer and high gloss finish is more beautiful than previously thought.

These speakers are quite heavy, weighing in at 165 pounds each.  PAP Quintets at 7 feet tall weigh only 148 pounds.

The Fast 15s are aptly named; they are so fast; we're talking Lowther speed.  Percussive attacks are probably the best I've ever heard.

As stated earlier, when I was breaking them in face down in their crates, these things are dynamically explosive.  Their ability to instantaneously go from soft to super loud, and vice versa, is as good as I've heard.  

The most surprising aspect of their performance is the treble and midrange detail.  I am hearing micro detail that I've not heard with my PAP Quintets.  Not sure how a 15 inch full range driver accomplishes this.

The ZF15Ls make most music sound more like live music than the Quintets do.  The Quintets are definitely more polite than the ZF15Ls.  The Lii Songs lean toward sounding a bit wild and raw, much like Lowthers.  

In my room the ZF15L's sound stage is significantly shorter than that presented by the Quintets.  It can be taller than the speakers themselves, but does not approach the realistic live music height of the Quintets.  Other than the height, the sound stage is wide and deep with great instrument and vocal separation.

The bass.  It's coming along.  With approximately 300 hours of break-in time, the bass is better than it was a week ago, but it seems that it is not what it can and will be.  

I could provide much additional detail, like how these speakers slay drums and cymbals, but it might be best to give them a few more weeks prior  to delving into further details.

I have a pair on order and was one of the first 5. Mine are on a ship somewhere between California and New York. Didn’t realize how heavy these were. Glad to hear they’re sounding great thus far Doug. Looking forward to hearing more of your impressions as they continue to develop. Also looking forward to receiving mine!

Hi Doug,
The speakers look great!
Is there any manufacturer ID on the mounting feet? I would like to buy something like those for my S-10 open baffles.
I'm a big Lii fan!
TX J

At 600 hours in I decided to re-insert the PAP Quintets and it became immediately obvious that they are the superior performers.  Here are a few random thoughts on the performance of the ZF15Ls and the Quintets.

I hear a wider, deeper, taller, more realistic soundstage with the Quintets. I also hear significantly better vocal and instrument imaging/placement on that soundstage.

Having listened to a dozen or so recordings since yesterday afternoon, from a variety of musical genres, I find the Quintets to be quite remarkable in that they capably handle all types of music at a very high performance level.  

To my ears, in my smallish room, the ZF15Ls are more akin to Klipschorns, Zu Definitions, and Azzolina Audio Gran Sferas (all of which I've owned); they sound fantastic with certain styles of music, but not quite as good with other music.  The Klipsch, Zu, and Azzolina Audio speaker do cost 8 to 12 times as much as the Lii Songs.

The Lii Songs are more dynamically capable than the Quintets with certain types of music, but the Quintets play louder denser music with far more clarity and control.  The ZF15Ls became a bit congested when playing  certain louder, more complex music passages.

One of my favorite genres of music is solo classical piano.  In my room, to my ears, the Quintets easily outperform the ZF15Ls.  The Lii Songs might have a very small edge in detail, but the Quintets are the easy winner when it comes to reproducing the bottom two octaves of a concert grand piano.  

A super fun recording is Bucky Pizzarelli's Nirvana album.  It has lots of hot closely miked solo drum work that shows off the ZF15L's speed, dynamics, and slam.  I haven't mentioned slam up to now, but let me tell you, these Lii Songs have real ability to hit you in the chest like no other speaker in their price range.  I queued up my favorite seventies rock demo disc, Dire Straits Brothers in Arms, and cranked it up to well over 100 decibels.  The ZF15Ls played Money for Nothing with clarity, great bass, nice vocals, and real slam.  

Here's an interesting difference in how the two speaker systems work in my system.  With my Quintets I seldom, if ever, turn my ZROCK2 control knob past the 1:30 mark, but with the ZF15Ls the ZROCK2 was always set between 2:00 and 3:30.  Fortunately, even though the ZR2 is cutting high frequencies at this setting it never reached a point where I felt I wasn't hearing enough high frequency information.  I'm guessing that's because the ZR2 is pretty much flattening out the tipped up mid and high frequency response of the Fast 15 drivers.  If you have a ZR2, these can be great rock and roll speakers.

Here's my final performance comparison today.  The Quintets are invisible on nearly all recordings.  Though the ZF15Ls disappeared on many recordings, their ability to vanish is not nearly as consistent as the PAPs.  It could be my smaller 18' x 13' room; it could be that I didn't work hard enough to find their best position, it could be my 8' ceiling; whatever it is, I could not dial in a consistent disappearing act.

I've done a ton of listening this past week and I'm ready to declare the Quintets my clear winner.  I have remained mindful, however, that the Quintets cost six times as much as the ZF15Ls.  Does that make the Quintets under-performers?  No!  I actually view them as huge over-performers at their price point.  So where does that leave the $2,000 per pair Lii Song ZF15Ls?  They are EXTREME over-performers.  I've owned a number of speakers in the $2,000 range over the decades, including my current family room speakers, and none of them comes even remotely close to realistically competing with the ZF15Ls.  The ZF15Ls are extraordinarily special!

I'm very glad to have satisfied my curiosity, but with the Quintets being the much preferred system, the Lii Songs will likely be going up for sale in the near future.  I simply don't have room for two large speaker systems. If I sell them, I'll list them here in the classifieds at a very low price point.  Happy listening to all!

Just for clarification, The Decware ZF15L do not come with the Fast15 drivers.  They come with the F15 drivers which are quite a bit better in my opinion.  Apparently Lii Song allowed you to choose the Fast 15 drivers in place of the F15 on the model you purchased from them.  The Fast15 require a network to flatten the response and even then, the bass while lower, lacks speed and punch by comparison.  This is all well documented on this forum, but for those just tuning in I think it is important to understand this review is not using the correct driver to be called a ZF15L.

Steve

I was just on the Lii Audio website, and these speakers are sold with the Fast-15, exclusively. The F-15 is mentioned in the description, but they state that the Fast-15 is an upgrade of the F-15, so that is how they sell the unit.

Looks like this is a pretty major mix up.

And John, great point on MDF instead of solid wood. That is huge. I know that the MDF allows them to sell them much cheaper, but the sound would be greatly affected.

Do you all think I should order a pair of F-15 drivers and pull the Fast 15 drivers?  Have I been short changed to the point that I'm not even close to hearing what these speakers can do?  

Regarding the drop in performance due to piano grade MDF, the difference can't be that big.  Who knows......with the density and deadness that high quality MDF offers, some might prefer the sound of the Lii Song MDF version.  There are lots of six figure loud speakers and pianos that utilize significant amounts of MDF, and not for cost/profit motives.  And as Steve said a few months ago.....

"We have licensed our large Open Baffle Loudspeaker, the ZF15L, to Lii Song. They are making a version of it in their piano factory using MDF instead of solid hardwood. It has an exotic wood veneer and a thick piano finish.  The base design is heavy steel which takes the place of the wood plinth. While it may only sound 90% as good as our $7000.00 solid hardwood model, the difference in price is more than compelling at $1800.00 a pair plus shipping. It's a deal of a lifetime."

But the question for me is whether to spend another $400 to hear the original F-15 driver.  Thoughts?

Doug,

Depends on if you plan to keep these speakers given your preference for the PAP's. Personally I'd check with Decware to see if they have any of the Fast-15 driver kits in hand. My recollection is that these improved (flattened) the frequency response quite a bit.

There are a number of insights in the F-15 baffle thread regarding comparisons between MDF vs. hardwoods. I believe most DIY'ers who compared the two preferred hardwood baffles.

I settled on a pair of Randy's Magnum Cherry baffles and the original Lii Audio F-15 drivers several years ago after hearing this combination at Decfest. In my small listening room they sound exceptional with my 25th Anniversary modified ZMA & CSP3. The only modification I made was replacing the crappy OEM speaker binding posts (newer F-15's have better binding posts) with some KLEI Harmony's. Really opened up the top end extending the higher frequencies.

Good luck.

HK

Thanks for posting Steve's licensing and comments on the Lii Song ZF15L Doug. Did not see his endorsement before.

I've heard both Randy's and Steve's hardwood baffles with F15s. Randy's are very impressive for the baffle size. Steve's simply provide a true to life musical punch. Both sets well seasoned with at least a thousand hours. Probably more!

HTH

Geno,

Recently I've been doing a lot of listening using Randy's Magnum baffles and have tried both the F15's and the Fast15/Decware Network combo. The Fast15's have a little more extended highs and deeper lows than the F15's. I've found the Fast15's really bright and required Steve's Network to get them to the point where the highs were more balanced and listenable.  

The bass is slanted more towards a deeper bass at the expense of the mid bass. Although it has similar slam, it is not as realistic sounding as the F15's. The F15's bass is outstanding. The F15's goes deeper into detail. Whether it is the driver or the network or both, the F15's does not obscure some detail like the Fast15's.

I was also listening to some Bach organ music. With the F15's, there was a larger and more acoustically transparent sound, which I found much more convincing than with the Fast15's. Overall the Fast15's sounded more skewed towards a little deeper bass while the F15's were more detailed and with a more balanced bass. There were also a few moments when deep bass that I heard with the Fast15's was almost missing with the F15's. Overall, I've found in this case, deeper does not equate to better.

I hope this provides more perspective between the two different drivers.

Geno,

So while I have the Network, in my brief use, I didn’t spot a major difference.  I have long wondered if it has to do with the amount of treatment in my listening room?  It has never sounded overly bright to me.  That said, I might revisit this again and if I come to the same conclusion, you can have my network.

Dom and GS have listened to the rig as well—so I will ask them for their unbiased opinion too.

Thanks for posting your experiences. I had been looking at Lii Song's ZF15M speakers when I first got interested in open baffle after hearing a pair of Spatial M2s at a friends house. There are no size/weight measurements on the Lii Song website, so I thought they were smaller than they are.

As I was discussing things with Steve (about an EQ that lead me to order the Zrock3) I looked into speakers and saw the Caintucks and asked Steve if they would work in my particular case (low volume listening because of tinnitus/hyperacusis.) He answered affirmatively. I also went back to the Lii Song wondering about those. Then I read your review and discovered how big the ZF15L's are and asked Lii Song about the smaller sized ones and they said the ZF15M's are 38" and weigh 99 pounds. Zoiks! I was already sure I was going to go with Caintucks so this was mainly informational, but those Lii Songs sure look nice!

I've decided that the Lii Songs are too big, the Betsy Baffle too small and the Caintuck Magnum F15's are just right. And now I'm on the SE84UFO2.1 list as well. Sigh.

Hey The Other Lon,

Do you have a ZR2?  I have found it to be a fantastic tool when playing rock and roll music; it actually allows the Lii Songs to produce enough bass to completely satisfy on most rock and roll recordings.

Regarding sound field height, until six years ago, when I purchased my PAP Quintets, sound stage height had never crossed my mind at all.  I have owned many speaker systems the past fifty years in the four to five feet tall range and always figured that what they delivered was as good as it gets when it comes to stage height  I was simply ignorant about what was possible.  Could I be perfectly content with the Lii Song ZF15Ls in my main system?  Yes!  However, I would always be conscious of the fact that a magical part of the sound stage was missing.

What speakers are you using in your main listening room?  If you ever get the chance to try the Lii Songs, I encourage you to give them a shot.  I have found them to be a near perfect fit in my 13' x 18' by 8' listening room.  

As you already know, break-in time is important with these drivers.  I now have over 1,000 hours on mine and I think they are still getting better, especially their bass response.  I have a feeling that even more time is needed to hear them at their best.

I love the way these speakers sound with my 300B amp, but I have come to a point where I prefer them with my 25 watt First Watt J2.  With the ZR2 and CSP3 in front of the J2, my system sounds like an all SET tube system. As good as they sound being driven by the 300B--and they sound really great--that extra J2 power brings these speakers to life in a wonderful manner. I'm curious to learn what power amp(s) you are using in your main room.

And I totally agree with you that there is no $2,500 (includes delivery fee) pair of speakers that can compete with the
Lii Song ZF15Ls!  

Happy listening!