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Opinions Welcomed (Read 3113 times)
ScottNC
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Opinions Welcomed
10/26/24 at 18:08:23
 
Hi All, I have decided to take a leap back into vinyl after many, many years streaming only. All my old records are long gone, so it's a complete start from scratch. I have pretty much settled on a Technics SL1300, Ortofon MM Cartridge, with a Teac Phono preamp, I'd love to have a Decware but the wait just won't workout for me, and holding out hope for a used one is a big stretch. I know that Technics wouldn't be the first choice for many, but having retailed the product since back in the 70s and 80s and followed them for years I just plain like 'em and the way they are built. I'm pretty sure that the new SL1300 can hold its own. Does a good Ortofon seem to be a good match for that and my system? I'm located out in very Western NC with no stores closer than many hours towards Atlanta, and honestly feel any input I get from members here is bound to be far more valuable. Anyway, thank you in advance for any thoughts or invite you might want to throw my way.
Regards and Happy Listening!
Scott
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Kamran
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Re: Opinions Welcomed
Reply #1 - 10/27/24 at 20:19:09
 
Scott, this is a timely post as I have also been thinking about getting back in to vinyl and to give it a fair shot compared to my digital setup.  Still at the very early stages of my review and research but I do have some fundamental questions for you and fellow members:

1) Belt Drive or Direct Drive—What are the pros and cons of either philosophy?
2) Low Mass (that Rega espouses) or ‘Built Link a Tank’ philosophy of other manufacturers including Technics.
3) How important is to be able to adjust VTA/Azimuth on the fly? Rega doesn’t think it’s important, while other manufacturers do.  Who is right?
4) MM or MC? In other words, if I am going to invest in my analog chain—does it make sense to forego MM in favor of MC?  Is MC always sonically superior?
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Crazy Bill the Eel Killer
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Reply #2 - 10/28/24 at 13:51:30
 
Kamran,
only have time to address one question now, but I'll be back.

https://vtaf.com/vtaf-vertical-tracking-angle-on-the-fly.html#/

This will solve the problem of no VTA on the fly for rega tonearms ( and others ). It is part of my Woody Universal tonearm and works incredibly well.

Cheers,            Crazy Bill
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cmdc
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Reply #3 - 10/28/24 at 23:48:24
 
There is no such thing as a right answer here, but I can offer a few opinions based on my experience and associated research geekery in vinyl. I got bit by the vinyl bug hard back in 2008, and it’s been getting progressively worse ever since.

Scott: I’m not familiar with the SL1300, but I know that the SL1200 has been a steady presence on the best vintage table lists for at least 15 years, and the newer SL1200G has gotten sweeping praise. So, as DD tables go, that’s about as safe a bet as they come.

Moving magnet cartridges are, on the whole, easier to use (except, in my experience, where VTA is involved. More on that below.) So, if your goal is comparative simplicity, a good MM is fine. That being said, and given your existing rig, I would discourage you from looking at any Ortofon MM below $500 and thinking you’ll hear something amazingly new. For very entry-level audiophiles, the Ortofon blue is…okay, and the Ortofon bronze is…a little better than that. But having installed both on my college student’s turntable, I can say they aren’t going to knock your socks off.  ClearAudio, Soundsmith, and Grado all make outstanding MM or MI carts. If your budget permits, have a look at the ClearAudio Virtuoso, Maestro, or Charisma, or Grado’s Master or Reference lines.

Soundsmith, as I noted, also makes terrific MI cartridges, but at a price where Kamran’s question about MM v MC really starts to matter. I put off getting my first MC for years because (a) I was really happy with the carts I had, and (b) getting a MC generally requires also getting a matching step up transformer, which adds cost and space. But having made the leap 6 or 7 years ago now, it’s clear to me that, above a certain level—around $1k or so in my experience—MC carts consistently and significantly outperform MM carts. In a word, they can be dramatically more revealing and more lifelike than MM carts; but the downside is  the everpresent temptation to buy ever better and ever more expensive carts.

Although I haven’t tried it myself, one obvious way to shortcut all of this could be to pick up one of the modified Denon DL103’s that Zu Audio makes.  The Denon 103 is a legendary MC; and I’ve never seen anything but effusive praise for Zu’s version of it, which sells new for around $500.

This brings me, briefly, to the question around VTA. When I was using only MMs, no matter how carefully I set them up, I often found that I needed to go back and adjust VTA frequently to correct for differences in the thickness of LPs.  Since making the move to MCs, I almost never feel the need to do that. There are exceptions, of course, but they are very rare.

You will still need an SUT, of course, and that used to be a costly problem, but now Ned Clayton sells really good and very customizable Cinemag-1254 based SUTs on eBay for a couple hundred dollars. If you want to spend more, you can go with a Bob’s Devices SUT, which is usually based on that same Cinemag.

The turntable and cartridge are only 2 parts of a system that also includes the tonearm, of course. If you decide to go the SL1200 or 1300 route, I’d suggest doing some specific research on how the arm on that table pairs with specific carts you’re interested in.

Having mostly used belt drive and Idler wheel tables (ProJect, ClearAudio, SOTA Sapphire, and many flavors of Thorens), I can’t speak to when DDs would be better. My own sense is that, while the speed stability of a DD is a definite plus, the increased risk of motor vibration directly into the platter assembly would make me hesitant to use it in a highly resolving system where the focus is critical listening. But again, others may have more relevant experience.

Kamran’s question about low mass vs high mass tables and plinths is a perennial one, and loads of virtual ink has been spilled on it. In my own experience, I started with lower mass tables, developed a real love for the isolation that sprung tables provide, and have moved over time to a very strong preference for high mass plinths.  But here, again, nothing is simple: if you go the high mass route, you have to think very carefully about the composition of the plinth, and how its materials handle resonance.  The plinth on my current reference table is designed for constrained layer damping, with two layers of panzerholz sandwiched between two layers of slate.  It is exceptionally heavy, and exceptionally quiet. That said, I’ve looked with lust more than a few times at the super rigid, skeletal Rega Naia.

Platforms matter regardless, of course, but if you go the low mass route, paying attention to isolation becomes particularly important.

But this brings me to a much more important question I hope you’ll consider before diving back into vinyl: Why?

I’m deep into vinyl and I absolutely love it; but my immersion in turntables and in audiophile gear have grown alongside each other. This means that the gear I’m currently using (and the record collection I use it with) have grown slowly, incrementally, along with my expectations about what good sound can be.

You both have the benefit (and the concomitant disadvantage) of being very experienced audiophiles with high end to very high end digital front ends, paired with Decware amplification (thus our presence here). If you take the plunge back into vinyl at this stage, you should be prepared to start a part of the learning curve over again, bringing with it as many disappointments as there are joys, even if—as you should—you invest at a scale comparable to your current digital gear.

I apologize if this sounds preachy, I don’t mean it to be. But turntables, like much of what we love in this space, involve a lot of interconnected but highly personal choices and preferences. So, this can be a wonderful road to new experiences in music, but it’s unlikely to be easy or cheap.

Which brings me to a final, obvious point, particularly for Scott given his note about his distance from audio stores. Make sure you have early, easy access to a good used record store. New vinyl releases are easy to come by now, but they are much more expensive than they used to be.  And while you can get good deals on platforms like Discogs, they are neither quick nor cheap.  To really experience the joy of discovery that vinyl is all about, what you’ll need more than anything else is A LOT of records. The more the better. You can shell out for limited editions or rare pressings later, but the second question you should answer before jumping back into vinyl (right after “Why?”) is “Do I have ready access to a bunch of cheap cool records to start playing with? And do I have somewhere to put them all?”

Hope something in here is helpful.

Carroll

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ScottNC
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Reply #4 - 10/29/24 at 03:00:03
 
As always, great information, going to take a few more re-reads to obsorb all of it, but please know I truly appreciate anyone who takes the time to pass on all their experience and knowledge for the rest of us. Thanks again.
Scott
Smiley
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Kamran
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Sarah

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Reply #5 - 10/29/24 at 04:19:25
 
Ditto—-the feedback so far has already exceeded my expectations.

Thx cmdc and Crazy Bill!

As Scott said, I’m also going to need to read this a couple of times to really process it before responding.
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beowulf
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Reply #6 - 10/29/24 at 04:58:29
 
I think your turntable choice of the SL-1300 is spot on.  If I was looking for something in the $3000 plus range this would be my choice.  For $1000 more you can get the SL-1200G, which has the better tonearm, but a lot of people don't like the DJ sort of looks with the pitch slider that the 1200G has.

I'm not sure of VTA on the fly as I've never had a table that could do this.  It could be more of a novelty, but I think there are staunch supporters as well, so it could be a cool feature to have.  If interested, VPI is is introducing the forever table pretty soon and this table's tonearm "may" have the ability of doing this (don't quote me on that, but I know some of their other tonearms can do this).

I've never heard the Teac phono pre, but it looks like a really solid unit.  Just to throw a couple of other choices out there ... I would also consider the following:


The Mac @ $2000 is really feature rich, has balanced outputs and you can also make needle drops of your albums for on the go listening, USA made and I've heard a lot of good feedback on this unit.  The Darlington Labs @ $999 is fully discreet and has great performance for the price and USA made.

  • Cartridge = Nagaoka MP500 (moving iron/moving magnet) and buy it through CD Japan as the exchange rate is still pretty good.

All Nagaoka carts have pretty good feedback, but the MP500 seems to be the sweetheart of the Steve Hoffman forums ~ especially at its price range and considered very balanced.  What's nice about the Naga's is that their styluses are user replaceable and you can mix and match different styluses to get different sounds, etc.
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Kamran
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Sarah

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Reply #7 - 10/31/24 at 00:51:46
 
Thanks beowulf— and good to hear from you!

Not that I mentioned it before, but if I were to go for Technics, the newly announced SL-1300 would be my pick as well.  No matter how good the SL-1200G is, I just can’t stand the look. By early accounts it’s sits nicely between the GR2 and G and that’s a good place to be.  The dealer I’ve been tracking in NJ is taking pre-orders for Dec (they are expecting limited quantities).

There are two Japanese brands that I keep hearing consistent praise about:

Nagaoka - MM
HANA- MC

So beowulf’s rec tracks (no pun intended).

Cmdc—Great rec on SUTs.  I read up on Bob’s Devices and his Cinemag units seem to be really highly regarded.  I hear good things about Dave Slagle’s SUT units as well.

Speaking of SUTs—if they are doing the bulk of the work while using a MC cart—does that mean one can skimp on the phono preamp? In other words, get a cheap phone pre (set it on MM) and splurge on the SUT?

If phone pre’s are still important—I was curious if anyone has any feedback on the Manley Chinook? Looks like they stopped making them, but Upsacale still sells them? The other (but solid state) brand that keeps popping up on my radar is Parasound JC3+.  Has anyone compared these to the ZP3?

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CAJames
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Re: Opinions Welcomed
Reply #8 - 10/31/24 at 01:23:30
 
Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Today at 16:51:46

...Speaking of SUTs—if they are doing the bulk of the work while using a MC cart—does that mean one can skimp on the phono preamp? In other words, get a cheap phone pre (set it on MM) and splurge on the SUT?


No, it is all about the weak link IMO. And I would argue the SUT doesn't do the bulk of the work: the math says a SUT typically does 20ish dB of the work, and the MM phono stage 40ish dB, plus the RIAA equalization. I would not go cheap on the phono stage. FWIW I'm super happy with my MM phono stage from Mapletree Audio:

https://www.mapletreeaudio.com/

It is a very small shop in Canada and did a great job with mine. Technically mine is a slightly different version with 12AX7/ECC83 tubes instead of 12SC7s, but 12SC7s are way less expensive.
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cmdc
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Reply #9 - 10/31/24 at 13:12:03
 
I agree that, in my experience, the Phono Pre makes a huge difference, so it’s a component to choose with care. You will need a really good phono stage regardless of whether you go the MM or MC route; I just focused on the SUT because it’s an extra bit of kit you need with the latter.
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Lon
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Re: Opinions Welcomed
Reply #10 - 10/31/24 at 13:28:10
 
This century I have had a handful of phono preamps, including the ZP3, and have kept the PS Audio NuWave Phono Converter (no longer in production). I really like it.
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Kamran
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Sarah

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Reply #11 - 10/31/24 at 15:16:30
 
Thx for the clarification James and cmdc and additional feedback Lon. Remind me to tell you about a recent dream I had — hint: it includes Michael Fremer!
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The other Lon
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Reply #12 - 11/03/24 at 20:52:07
 
cmdc nailed it.

Once we have settled on what we want, confirmation bias takes over and nothing else really matters. I wanted a Vinyl Nirvana Thorens 125 and that was it. And a Hana ML and the ZP3. Nothing else really mattered.

What was nailed was the reason for vinyl. So agree it is an investment in space, dollars, and sacrifice. The sacrifice being the inherent noise of vinyl over digital. I can spend 45 minutes manually cleaning an amazing find, run it through the cavitation machine and still have a noise floor louder than digital. In the end I am ok with it because the listening process and sound is more visceral to me.

Choose the system which you think will make you happy today and make changes as your time with the vinyl changes. I still love the ease of digital. Does not change the smile vinyl gives me as I was more involved in the process and feel more connected.
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Dominick
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Reply #13 - 11/04/24 at 00:18:02
 
It’s been about 2 years now since I have jumped back into vinyl.  I’ve been slowly building up my collection, and just recently upgraded my Phono preamp  from a Rega Fono MM Preamp to the ZP3. Talk about an major upgrade.  Mother music is so much more lifelike and dynamic, that I was r blown away.  At this stage my next upgrade will be to jump into a MC cartridge and a new table.  Until I can afford to spend upwards of $5k, then I’ll just going to stay the course.
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Kamran
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Sarah

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Reply #14 - 11/04/24 at 03:04:51
 
So Michael Fremer invited me to his house to listen to his analog setup.  I got there, super excited to have my mind blown, and then he proceeds to demo his TT in complete darkness and with no sound —- not only do I have no idea what it sounds like, I don’t even know what deck or cartridge he has and I get so annoyed, that I finally woke up.

Yeah, that was the annoying dream I had the other day.  What the heck Fremer?  Not the first time I’ve had vivid dreams about Hifi—I’ve had my fair share of imaginary tubes and their sonic traits in la la land….

Anyways, I digress:

The Other Lon: Thx for your input—speaking of cavitation—-which one do you use? I am lusting after the Humminguru. My current clean-up consists of a Groovewasher G2 liquid and their beautiful Walnut pad.  

Dom: You got a great deal on that ZP3!  I’ve been researching alternative all tube point to point phono pre units and the other two brands that popped up on my radar recently are the Icon Audio PS1 MKII and the Zesto Andros Spirit (Guttenberg really dug it).

I plan to visit some dealers in the next couple of weeks to audition the P6 vs. P8 as well as the new Technics SL-1300.  In parallel, I might think about upgrading my Sumiko Ranier to a moonstone—I only need to get the new stylus, which is cheaper than getting a new cartridge.
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CAJames
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Re: Opinions Welcomed
Reply #15 - 11/04/24 at 03:53:30
 
Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Today at 19:04:51

So Michael Fremer invited me to his house to listen to his analog setup.  I got there, super excited to have my mind blown, and then he proceeds to demo his TT in complete darkness and with no sound —- not only do I have no idea what it sounds like, I don’t even know what deck or cartridge he has and I get so annoyed, that I finally woke up...


You might have bigger problems than what phono pre to buy...
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Kamran
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Sarah

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Reply #16 - 11/04/24 at 05:03:45
 
LOL James—I think I watched one too many of his YouTube videos.

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CAJames
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Re: Opinions Welcomed
Reply #17 - 11/04/24 at 14:53:19
 


Another option might be Space-tech Labs. They have a wide variety of tube phono stages.
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Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Mapletree Phono 3E
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Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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ScottNC
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Reply #18 - 11/04/24 at 17:40:56
 
Technics SL-1300G-K, Ortofon Concorde Blk, Teac PE 505
Ordered Today… We’ll see how pans out  :), hopefully by end of month.
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The other Lon
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Re: Opinions Welcomed
Reply #19 - 11/05/24 at 14:05:26
 
@Kamran

I use the Degritter MKII... I also use the manual cleaning method for vinyl finds outlined in the PRECISION AQUEOUS CLEANING OF: VINYL RECORDS PDF (Google Search for the link).

I find there are limitations on what the Degritter can and cannot do. Most likely the same for similar machines. 40+ years of dirt is not the easiest to get out of such a thin groove. Most of my vinyl comes from second hand stores in the $1-$10 range. Manual cleaning in addition to the machine is a necessity.
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mrchipster
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Reply #20 - 11/05/24 at 18:13:30
 
ScottNC,

Congrats on the decision made for your new analog chain. Very nice and should be future proof as well as upgradeable if the need ever arises. The synergy of those 3 components should be amazing!

These new additions to your incredible stable of existing equipment should really round out the completeness of a digital and analog system. Not sure I could ask for anything more (but hey, we're enthusiasts so of course we can, lol).

When you've had a chance to experience the new equipment, please report back on the details of what I'm sure is to be a slice of sonic heaven.
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GroovySauce
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Reply #21 - 11/06/24 at 15:54:02
 
A bit late to the thread.

To add more to the unknown. Transimpedance or current mode phono, are worth looking into. You must use a MC cartridge, ideally with low internal resistance.

Quote:
The sacrifice being the inherent noise of vinyl over digital.
Yes and I have some 40 year old records bought second hand and I've had people say I'm trying to trick them because there is no way it's that silent. The noticeable noise is tape hiss not vinyl artifacts.

Static on the record doesn't have nearly the same impact on the sound compared to voltage multiplying phono stages.

I've also noticed that a lot of new pressings quality control is terrible. Even 10 years ago pressings seemed to be much better. I just listened to Oh Wonder's debut album Oh Wonder, It's amazing, extraordinarily quiet, exciting dynamics. The Qobuz or Tidal version sounds like youtube compression in comparison.

The Sutherland SUTZ is a transimpedence SUT. If I had known about the SUTZ when I still had the ZP3 I would have tried that. That might be the best solution IMO.

EDIT: Why I mention Oh Wonder is because it's a pop album, not an "audiophile" quality one. Janis Ian's Breaking the Silence reissued by Analogue Productions is just okay. As so many of the "Audiophile" releases and reissues are really disappointing sonically.
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CAJames
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Re: Opinions Welcomed
Reply #22 - 11/06/24 at 16:06:56
 
Quote:
Posted by: GroovySauce      Posted on: Today at 07:54:02

...I've also noticed that a lot of new pressings quality control is terrible...


+1. Early in the pandemic I bought a bunch of new LPs to help get through the lockdown and they were uniformly terrible. My 40+ year old used records bought for a dollar or two sound way better. After that I stopped buying vinyl and upgraded my digital so it is no longer a compromise compared to the best LP sound I can get. I don't know if that is helpful for this thread or not...

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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
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STR-1002 -> Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
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Re: Opinions Welcomed
Reply #23 - 11/07/24 at 13:55:59
 
This has developed in to such a fantastic thread. Thx Scott and congrats on your purchase—-will be looking forward to your impressions!

The Other Lon—thx for your feedback!
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Reply #24 - 11/15/24 at 23:18:24
 
So I was at CAF last weekend and figured that you guys might appreciate this coverage from Michael Fremer.

https://youtu.be/ZA0vTg3zE4M?si=QzwJYId_fNYeJ6eq

And ahem—-I was in the VPI room when Fremer was interviewing Matt Weisfeld.  He had a tiny little camera thingy that he first used to point all over VPI’s new Forever One TT.  While VPI’s design aesthetics still don’t do it for me, it was fascinating to watch Matt’s passion.  Another interesting point—his kids were there too (probably the only kids I saw at the show)—you can actually glimpse one of the little ones when Fremer turns from focusing on the TT to Matt (I was sitting right behind the kids).  It’s a family affair and that was very endearing.

Any who, once Micheal was done, and was leaving the room, I got to introduce myself and shake his hand.  Thought for a fleeting second to tell him about my weird dream—but sanity prevailed.

Got to greet Michael Lavorgna (from Twittering Machines)—we are actually had lunch at the same time at Smash Burger.  Also spotted Cheap Audioman, but didn’t spot either Jay or Audiophile Junkie (who I both met and interacted with last year).

Staying on topic of TT’s—-had a great discussion with JR at Wally Tools and Charles from Kirmuss Audio—-kinds of TT’s, tonearms, and cleaning best practices.
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Reply #25 - 11/16/24 at 01:05:28
 
You should send the table to Uncle Kev at KAB for modifications to step it up where it will blow away those finicky belt drive tables
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Reply #26 - 11/16/24 at 21:09:33
 
I’m hoping it holds its own and I don’t feel the need to modify, it was, after all, just released. I’m pretty confident it will keep me happy for a while.
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Reply #27 - 11/17/24 at 03:20:24
 
Hi Scott.

My first good cart was an Ortofon Concorde Black/Sty40. I thought it sounded really nice - that is until I got my first Soundsmith cart - the Carmen ll.  It was significantly better than the Ortofon. In fact, I was so impressed with it, I decided to look for a used/low hour model, several rungs up the Soundsmith ladder.  I found what I was looking for - an Aida ll.  That was almost 2 years ago now, and I still love it!

The best thing about the Ortofon is, that it’s practically plug it in and play. Once you install it, all you have to do is adjust the arm height. Adjust it to level, and then tweak it up or down by ear.

I also got a Darlington Labs MP-8b preamp, a while back. I highly recommend it - especially with the fact that it is $1000, and punches way above its price.

Best,

Geno
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Reply #28 - 11/17/24 at 17:10:38
 
Thanks Geno,
Good info
Scott
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MyTek Brooklyn DAC+,Sonore ultraRendu LinearPS,sonicTransport APi7 4TB Woo WA6, Sennheiser HD660s RoomTreatments DHC1
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Reply #29 - 11/17/24 at 17:33:05
 
I reached out to a Technics Dealer in NJ, hoping to stop by Monday afternoon to audition the 1300G, but he told me that nobody has it yet and the first batch of units that are due in December are mostly sold out.  Was asking me to purchase one now to possibly get in line for a January delivery. I politely declined for now—might touch base again in December to gauge if I can come in to listen to a pre-sold unit.
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Reply #30 - 11/17/24 at 22:42:56
 
It would be interesting to know how many units are already sold, given how widely known the name is and some pretty positive reviews, probably quite a few. Hopefully, if Moon Audio is correct,  it should be the next few weeks. I’m rearranging to make room for when it arrives. This is temporary, that’s a REL sub right behind the preamp! The turntable and phono preamp are going to live in Mapleshade rack when that shows up in a few months.
https://www.simpleimageresizer.com/_uploads/photos/39cefae2/IMG_1083_1_optimized...
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MyTek Brooklyn DAC+,Sonore ultraRendu LinearPS,sonicTransport APi7 4TB Woo WA6, Sennheiser HD660s RoomTreatments DHC1
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