Hi Guys, I've been casually looking for a new DAC.  I'm not disappointed in what I am using now, but I am always searching to improve my 3D soundstage.   It's really good now, but I always wonder if it can be improved.   And, I always wonder if I can make the sound more analogue.

Currently, I am using a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+.  This DAC offers two things that I probably won't want to give up in a new DAC.  

1. It outputs balanced and unbalanced at the same time.  Balanced goes to my Zbit and then to my 25th Zen.   Balanced goes to amps driving the bass speakers and sub.

2. Remote.  I'm lazy.  I can use my phone with Audirvana to do the volume, but prefer to bypass the digital volume control.

I've heard Denefrips, Schitt, and PS Audio in my room and all sounded good but that was all pre-covid so I haven't heard much of the new stuff other than at Axpona and you can't really get a good read at shows.

Budget is around $2K.   Maybe I could stretch to $3K but I'd rather not.

Any suggestions are appreciated.  I think there are lots of great DACs out there.   Just not sure of the balance/unbalanced simultaneous output.  It's usually not a promoted feature even if it can output in this fashion.

Thanks

Denafrips is still great post-COVID and does balanced and unbalanced output simultaneously. But no remote so YMMV, although once you get it setup there isn't anything to change except maybe the source if you have more than one. It also offers an upgrade path by adding a DDC to your existing DAC.

My vote is on the Pontus 15 also.

I'm on the fence if I'm going to buy one myself.
My Ares II is so good that I don't know if it is worth spending the $1900 on a new one.

I kind of have blown most of my Christmas money on a new SS integrated.

But I'm also looking at a streamer.

Upper middle class problems!

I just purchased the new Holoaudio Cyan2. Was $1300 and many say it bests the Pontus even 15th edition. It’s a r2r nos DAC so no internal over sampling. There are lots of reviews and much written on it since it’s release in April I agree with what everybody has to say is truly an amazing buy. my system‘s pretty game right now and I absolutely love it especially with the Tori five

To add to the discussion, I have had the Ares II, the Pontus (not the 15) and now have the Terminator II.  All three have been excellent, and each one surpassed its predecessor.  The Pontus was a step up in my system over the Ares II, but the Terminator II was a couple of steps up from the Pontus. If you stay in the Denafrips models and have the resources, I recommend highly the Terminator II.

I can share my personal experience.

Had a holo spring 3 kte nos fully decked out with the better power supply, silver wire, better capacitors, etc. which the holo designer told me was 95% of the sonics of the holo May.  I Had also added a Swiss fuse to it. It was great.

I Upgraded recently to a gustard x30 and certainly prefer the gustard.

It is the only dac I am aware of right now running 4 flagship-grade ESS Sabre 9039 PRO  chips.

You can run it in nos mode or not with multiple filter settings to tailor the sound.

There are a number of reviews available online on the product.

Hey Pal.

I have been looking at DACs too, I guess right now, looking seriously at the Musical Paradise, though I find the Gustard x30 compelling also, especially having really been enjoying my Gustard X20pro after mods for quite a few years. I don't know if the Musical Paradise can do both outputs or not. Looking around for information I found this Musical Paradise thread. In it there are some videos from Loic at Hifi Cave, for what its worth, one of them mostly comparing the Gustard R26 (resister ladder) to a Pontis and Venus, with a tease reference to his tuned up Musical Paradise at the end.

https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/612687-musical-paradise-mp-dx-dac/

Over the last few years I have almost bought an R26 many times, and they do come up used. I just never dove in because I have for the most part loved the Gustard I have, to me quite a bit faster and more resolving in musical ways than it was stock. Seems the Gustard R26 has gotten a lot of praise from reviewers in comparison to the Holo Spring and other less costly ladder DACs, my interest the same reason as yours... wanting to actually hear a decent ladder DAC in my setup that is a good quality for the money, while being pretty fast and clear. But I have not heard it, so.....

Thanks all for your input.   I decided to buy the Cyan 2.  Good reviews, lower cost and I think I can flip it easily if I don't like it.   Also, I run DSD and the owner reviews said its even better and closer to the higher end May Dacs in running DSD.

I was also tempted on the Pontus II 15th anniversay.  $500 more (on sale now) but decided to see what a lower cost unit can do first.

This is going to be interesting.  My Mytek is pretty resolving and has a great great soundstage in my room.  So, I will be interested to see what R2R brings to the table.

In your budget range is the Auralic Vega S1 Streaming DAC @ $1,999 + Upgraded PSU @ $1,000.  It's received some nice reviews.  

https://us.auralic.com/products/vega-s1

Well it’s supposed to arrive the 24th.  Not even 3 weeks so happy about that. Supposed to take 6 weeks.  I’ll give it some time and then post about what I hear.

I’ve been able to spend a little time with this DAC.  I’ve run it fairly constantly for the last 2 days to give it a little break in.  My comments are based on 4-5 hours of real listening time so take them for what they are worth.

Just a bit about my system/room because it has some impact on what I can hear going on.  Chain is a Mac mini running Audirvana Studio with SSDs and an external linear power supply to Cyan 2 via Curious USB cable.  Then balanced out to Zbit to 25th Anniversary Zen to Lii Audio P10 Open Baffles with rear facing horn tweeters.  I also run RCA out of the Cyan 2 to a splitter which sends the low end  to Acoustic Elegance LO15s and the very low end to a GR Research DIY servo sub (bass game changer IMHO)..  My room is well treated with various diffusers, absorbers and bass traps.  Noise level in my room is around 30db (A weighted via my phone).

To integrate this DAC given my system was a bit of a challenge.  I’m basically tuning the volume level of three amps before I can use Audirvana to control the master volume.  Previously, I used the Mytek Booklyn DAC+ as a pre to control the master volume.

Also, in my comments I’ll be making comparisons to the Mytek DAC+, which I suspect very few people have heard, while many may know the Denefrips, PS Audio, Schitt house sound.  Still, as I said in earlier comments, the Mytek DAC+ is no slouch and retailed for $2200 around 4-5 years ago.

The first few hours, the DAC sounds a little edgy, but that seems to be subsiding and it’s sounding more and more analogue.

Compared to my Mytek DAC, the output levels (both RCA and Balanced) seem high.  I have had to turn everything down considerably.  

The first thing I discovered is I lost the ability to control volume via Audirvana for DSD playback.  I figured this would happen going in given how DSD works but it was still a disappointment.  I could still control volume via Audirvana in PCM mode.  Anyway, the majority of my listening has been without upsampling.

In general, the detail (like hearing fingers slide on guitar strings) is  a little better than the Mytek, but the musical detail is significantly better.  The difference to me is the dynamics in the instrument playback that make it sound more real and the communication between the musician and listener is more intimate.

This is especially evident in low level listening.   This morning, I had a very nice listening session and the sound level averaged only 57db.  There was a loss of size of soundstage, but all the instrument detail was there.

Helping this is the blackness of the background and instrument separation.  Instrument separation is not necessarily much better than the Mytek, but the combination blackness+separation is very good, especially for lower level listening.  Add to it the dynamics and it’s a winning combo.

Soundstage is not yet better than the Mytek, but it’s still early.  Right now, the Mytek has better 3D layering.  Height and width is comparable.  It’s also a different soundstage so I’m trying to figure that out.  Maybe a little more forward.

Given the dynamics of this DAC, it’s more of a toe tapper.   I used to tune into the bass line more but now I find myself tuning more into the percussion.   Good pace and I find it pulling me more into the music.

On electronic music, it has good slam and pop.  I was getting good bass detail with the Mytek, but this is better.

I did try a USB 3.0 cable but did not detect any difference (some people said 3.0 was better).  I messed around with upsampling, but thought it added to the early edginess.  Again, its early.

I know that some people poo poo digital volume control but I had both digital and analogue on the Mytek and compared both to Audirana’s digital control and could not hear a difference.  I intend to set the system up for listening to DSD without volume control so I can see if it is indeed better.  If it is, I may be looking for a pre-amp.

Anyway, that’s about it for now.  I credit some of the dynamics and low level listening ability to the sensitivity of my drivers and my room treatments, but I think its predominantly the DAC that I am hearing.

I’d guess the output levels plays some role here Willl. I’ll look up what the output is.  I’ll also see how the Mac mini volume interacts with the Audirvana volume.  

Looks like you’d be able to spends years exploring all the options on that MP DAC.  Base price seems pretty reasonable.  Do you mind saying what you paid for your package.  PM if more appropriate.

Very cool. I haven't heard the Mytek DAC+ but it has an excellent reputation so I'm very interested in your observations as you get more time with the new DAC. FWIW/JMO and all that, but I feel like the actual digital-to-analog conversion algorithm, R-2-R vs. delta-sigma vs. whatever, is only a small piece of the overall sound of the DAC. To me stuff like the digital input receiver circuit, analog output circuit and power supply noise isolation are much bigger factors, but "R-2-R" is a lot easier to sell than the gory details. My DAC is R-2-R and I love it to death, but I think the R-2-R bit is only a fraction of what makes it so good.

I agree, different tech individually looked at can be limited, especially these days with better everything in DAC development having resolved so much. And like everything else...everything depends on all else. For me I think it is also weird to interpret what I hear about DACs in part due to the way the audio community tends to talk about them, so much of it being tech/spec oriented.

My modified NOS Tranquility, which I did not totally love, but pretty close, it was not for the tech, but how the sound made me feel. And it has a NOS chip, an important part of its sound and another layer of this complex.

So I am wondering if it is the techy orientation that has kept me from feeling excited/confident about moving forward when what I have is so good, including jumping into ladder DACs. I just rarely get a real sense of love and excitement from reviews based on the body/mind experience, leaving me wondering... That said, no doubt my sound is way about good tech and implementation to get there, but finally it just opens me up and makes me feel good whether in the seat, or on like it is now... it is just exciting and liberating in so many ways, the beautifully balanced ways it expresses music. I do love this potential we have now for the musical experience to be so life-enhancing/life-changing.


Relative to software volume, with my DACs, I have often (maybe always with a pre stage or more) had to reduce my player software "volume" to avoid minor distortions further on, especially with multiple "pre-stages" in line.

Using Amarra now, I do still run the software from a RAM disk, also some player integrated EQ tuning, and just the last few days, I am re-exploring upsampling, something that did not work very well here years ago when I 1st changed to Amarra... Now 176.4/16 PCM is seeming quite good, but it takes me time to absorb the breadth of these kinds of changes. The total CPU use is bouncing around, but surprisingly low to me, from ±3-5% total at the start of a tune, then still up and down, but often less than 2% total according to the system monitor. Not sure how much of this minor CPU use is my stripped down OS, but impressive to me.

In the past with Audirvana, 352.8 PCM was my fav with this same DAC, having a nice blend of a greater sense of resolution/space, while also being smooth without being dull. I don't recall the CPU numbers, but I think pretty much higher, especially with DSD. I was intrigued by the space and absolute clarity of DSD, but it never caught me musically like PCM, with this DAC anyway, seeming just a little cold and contrived as I recall.

Not fully convinced yet, it is too new to know if I will prefer upsampling over the 16/44 I have been using happily for years, but interesting. BTW, I have heard and read from many HOLO people that NOS is really good for those DACs.

Where I was going though... with some pretty minor EQ, my setting on the Amarra volume was 93-94 to get the most real and lively sound across recordings here without hype or subtle distortions, and I just left it there. Now, trying upsampling, I seem to be doing well at 95 on the volume, and the digital filters running at -3dB. Not enough time to be conclusive, but so far, seems pretty good.

To me, with this level of software volume reduction before the DAC, not only does it not seem to damage the sound, all things considered, it sounds more like real music. In my case, to sound real, is has to have really good resolution, requiring very good timing, the space allowing the finer aspects of fine detail/harmonics to be so good I forget about trying to get them and just love it. I doubt that all would be there if it were damaged.

Once again, over years, I continue to be amazed how much there is on a 44/16 recording if we can just pull it in balanced and complete ways. This makes me imagine that my software output reflects having all the software stuff integrated, including the volume, before it goes to the DAC...likely different than many DAC's digital volumes in terms of potential for truncation.

On the Musical Paradise MP-DX, below is what I got at current prices, with shipping and upgrades, $1436 USD:

1) ES9039MSPRO x 2 ($290)
2) I2S ($20)
3) Amanero Combo384 USB ($30)
4) 4-6N1Ps stock
5) 4-OHVL stock caps
6) Accusilicon AS338 clock ($80)
7) Shipping ($66)

It is cool that these are modular, and user changeable.

Also you can run RCA/SE using two of the output tube/cap paths, or balanced, using all four. I figure I will want to play with better caps and tubes later, but did not want to commit until I heard it more stock, exploring the benefits or lack thereof of two versus four and all the ways I can play with those for my preferences...

Is it worth it to run all four tubes and caps (more costly for upgrades), a potential benefit going balanced out through the ZBIT?

Will lowering the values of the 4 caps out from 2.2 uf to 1.5 uf make it faster/less dense/full in a good way for me, and the same for SE?

How far can I take the stock caps with nice bypassing?

So many different 6.3 and 12.6 V tubes possible, what will I tend to prefer. I have a number of tube type variations I can make quads with...and a lot of pairs.

Quad or pairs...along with bypasses that make the base caps faster, more resolving, more musical, or upgrading the base caps too, who knows where I might end up cost wise.

I figure once I have a feel for it, if needed, I may want to further refine caps and tubes, or connectors and wire.... maybe PS bypasses. But starting with seller upgraded stock, and lots of choices using two tube paths, or four, could change the end price notably. With nice stuff, running balanced especially, I can easily imagine it could go over 2K...

Nice! I bet it will get notably better too. Really exciting.

I had forgotten about us working on your SE34... that was fun.

I love my tuned up ZBIT with this DAC, the extra signal power from balanced out really nice (I think maybe 3V RCA to 6V balanced). I find it too much wide open, lately liking the ZBIT between ±3 o'clock and maybe 4:30. But the DAC sounded really good before using RCAs out and gain tuning between the CSP3 and amp. I am so dependent on transparent and fast gain tuners, not for "gain" per se, but for sound tuning, it would really hard to choose to do without.

Now I have a ZBIT+, followed by a ZRock2+, a baffle step adjusting device called Attune that came from the guy I bought my Omegas from for refining the monitor's bass, and also having a little circuit for enhancing soundstage/space/harmonics which mostly that stays off so far, or barely on... once I fixed it up bypassing the switch, a nicer IEC, a hollow silver thingy instead of a fuse, nicer RCAs and wires, and cap bypasses, it is a nice transparent addition... it is followed by my CSP3+ before the amp, and all connected with really "not there" sounding ICs. I love having a variety of sonic influences that are equally transparent, resolving, and musical, but each having different flavors within that theme for fine tuning the signal for tubes, system/room and recordings.

Exciting your upgrading for less money! It is really cool that DACs are finally coming to a new sort of maturity. I think some of the great Chinese developers have been important players in breaking through some of the old molds and ideologies of trying to act "analog" rather than just being great for music by utilizing the amazingly clean potential of digital musically.

Exciting times.

I remember looking into software upsampling versus hardware a long time back, and as I recall, the pro computer folks were saying it has to do with the computer being much better at processing that much data well, at least with good software to do it. I have not tried it yet, but when I run across HQ Player folks loving how well it can massage the bits in so many refined ways, at least with enough quiet, non-destructive computing power... I find this interesting.